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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On April 27 2012 06:23 neoghaleon55 wrote: It seems like TvP late game is a struggle because protoss warps in a ton of zealots but Terran has no AOE damage to defend against it. Hint: Zealots can't shoot at range or hit air units. Kite with cshells + starport. Zeals no problem anymore. Basic stuff really, i feel embarassed for even having to point it out. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 28 2012 00:11 LaundroMatt wrote: I think that the additional step in tech could be considered to account for the fact that once you have the tech you can pop as many BLs as you have the resources for in the same amount of time it would take to morph one. I'd say it's more like the fact that Zerg tech is fundamentally different than Terran tech, which is fundamentally different from Protoss tech. This little fact has been the source of a ton of balance complaints, both legitimate and illegitimate. In general, there are two values that any piece of tech has: its availability, and its flexibility. Availability is simply how easy it is to reach a certain piece of tech, and flexibility is how easy it is to switch to that piece of tech. For example, mass Reaper is very available. There are legitimate Terran openers that begin with building a Reaper. However, it is not very flexible, as not all Terran builds are set up to provide a VERY large count of Barracks with Tech Labs. On the contrary, Ultralisks are possibly one of the least available units in the game. However, they are very flexible: as soon as that Ultralisk Cavern finishes, you can theoretically build up to 33 Ultralisks where you previously had zero. The fundamental strategic attribute of SC2 is that Terran availability>Protoss availability>Zerg availablity, and Zerg flexibility>Protoss flexibility>Terran flexibility. This is a lot of why each race has its own moniker: Terran is the "early-game race" because it is so available. None of its late-game tech can be too strong, or it would just overpower the other races in the early and midgame when it had lategame tech but the other races did not. Zerg is the "macro race" because it is so flexible. It is easy to focus on a HUGE economy and then toss in a tech structure at the last minute, because of how flexible the race is. And finally, Protoss is the "timing attack race" because of how there are points in the game where it will briefly have the upper hand in both tech and flexibility. So yeah, that's why Broodlords are so unavailable. It's because they're already pretty flexible simply because of how Zerg is designed. They could be MUCH more available if, for example, you built them one-by-one out of your Spires, but that would mean you were no longer playing Zerg. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On April 28 2012 01:57 Rob28 wrote: Hint: Zealots can't shoot at range or hit air units. Kite with cshells + starport. Zeals no problem anymore. Basic stuff really, i feel embarassed for even having to point it out. Say you barely won a fight and have let's say 10 red hp marines, 6 red hp marauders and 4 medivacs without energy and instead of getting the spoils all your stuff dies to 20 zealots, Starport is not helping, kite won't help that much either, kiting makes you not macro while you kite, with this amount of units you will take ages to kill all the zealots and if you keep stimming all your stuff will be one shot in the next charge. And don't be an ass while answering. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 28 2012 02:03 Alpino wrote: Say you barely won a fight and have let's say 10 red hp marines, 6 red hp marauders and 4 medivacs without energy and instead of getting the spoils all your stuff dies to 20 zealots, Starport is not helping, kite won't help that much either, kiting makes you not macro while you kite, with this amount of units you will take ages to kill all the zealots and if you keep stimming all your stuff will be one shot in the next charge. And don't be an ass while answering. If this ever occurred, you should just pick up your units, go back to your base, and hold with reinforcements. There's no reason for you to be engaging at your natural, before someone quips that. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 28 2012 01:57 Rob28 wrote: Hint: Zealots can't shoot at range or hit air units. Kite with cshells + starport. Zeals no problem anymore. Basic stuff really, i feel embarassed for even having to point it out. Until the bioball hits a certain size, Marauders don't trade cost-effectively with Zealots because the Zealots get too good of a concave on the Marauders. The warp-in round comes before the ball hits that critical timing, allowing Protoss to at the very least push it back and at best clean it up entirely. Something that might actually be worth experimenting with is keeping a little pack of 5-10 Speed-upgraded Reapers off to the side during the main engagement, and bringing them in after to help deal with the warp-in round. Reapers are terrible in a straight-up fight because they die so fast to Storms and Colossi and what have you, but as support to the residual Marauders and Medivacs left over after the big fight, they could be quite fantastic. I don't think that putting yourself down 5-10 supply ought to cripple the Terran in this situation: the Protoss advantage is not from being just barely able to overpower Terran with a little more supply; it's from being able to ensure that BOTH armies die, but the Protoss army rebuilds faster. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
Same goes for NrSClavie - 9000 games played, top 25 grandmasters - he does NOTHING but blink stalker or DT all ins. NOTHING else. One or two base, it'll be an all in. Fotonkanonimba - cannon rushes and warp prism 4 gates. It's just absolutely demoralizing losing to these players who are hardly mid-masters level yet repeatedly attain grandmasters because of their race. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:06 EmilA wrote: I am sick and utterly disgusted by the rankings attainable by protoss players who suck so horrible I just can't fathom it. On the European server there are numerous protoss players in the grandmaster bracket who exclusively 1 base all in every game. If you look up Koldyn: He proxy gates every game against protoss or terran - when he mixes it up it's a proxy stargate all in. Against zerg it's another 1/2 base all in, but really, grandmaster for playing at a level that would not earn him masters league with the other two races. Same goes for NrSClavie - 9000 games played, top 25 grandmasters - he does NOTHING but blink stalker or DT all ins. NOTHING else. One or two base, it'll be an all in. Fotonkanonimba - cannon rushes and warp prism 4 gates. It's just absolutely demoralizing losing to these players who are hardly mid-masters level yet repeatedly attain grandmasters because of their race. There are Zergs in GM who just 6pool (one rather notable one made a guide thread on TL) and there are Terrans who exclusively 3rax/1-1-1 Protoss. Hell, there are even players in the GSL who 2 base all-in 9/10 games. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43779 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:06 EmilA wrote: I am sick and utterly disgusted by the rankings attainable by protoss players who suck so horrible I just can't fathom it. On the European server there are numerous protoss players in the grandmaster bracket who exclusively 1 base all in every game. If you look up Koldyn: He proxy gates every game against protoss or terran - when he mixes it up it's a proxy stargate all in. Against zerg it's another 1/2 base all in, but really, grandmaster for playing at a level that would not earn him masters league with the other two races. Same goes for NrSClavie - 9000 games played, top 25 grandmasters - he does NOTHING but blink stalker or DT all ins. NOTHING else. One or two base, it'll be an all in. Fotonkanonimba - cannon rushes and warp prism 4 gates. It's just absolutely demoralizing losing to these players who are hardly mid-masters level yet repeatedly attain grandmasters because of their race. Quick, someone tell the Protoss progamers how to win with only 1base all-ins. Relax. There are surely just as many Zergs and Terrans who do the same. And quite frankly, who sucks more: the player who wins a cheesy all-in game, or the player who doesn't scout it and plays too greedy to hold off the push? And that goes for any race. Cheese and all-ins are part of the game. If you want nr20, go back to fastest possible maps. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:06 EmilA wrote: I am sick and utterly disgusted by the rankings attainable by protoss players who suck so horrible I just can't fathom it. On the European server there are numerous protoss players in the grandmaster bracket who exclusively 1 base all in every game. If you look up Koldyn: He proxy gates every game against protoss or terran - when he mixes it up it's a proxy stargate all in. Against zerg it's another 1/2 base all in, but really, grandmaster for playing at a level that would not earn him masters league with the other two races. Same goes for NrSClavie - 9000 games played, top 25 grandmasters - he does NOTHING but blink stalker or DT all ins. NOTHING else. One or two base, it'll be an all in. Fotonkanonimba - cannon rushes and warp prism 4 gates. It's just absolutely demoralizing losing to these players who are hardly mid-masters level yet repeatedly attain grandmasters because of their race. I'd be totally on your side if this actually happened at a competitive level. As-is, the pros don't have a problem with this. Learn how to beat this or stop complaining. The problem isn't that "omg toss OP", it's that you're not good enough to defend those all-ins. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:09 Shiori wrote: There are Zergs in GM who just 6pool (one rather notable one made a guide thread on TL) and there are Terrans who exclusively 3rax/1-1-1 Protoss. Hell, there are even players in the GSL who 2 base all-in 9/10 games. Uh... Where are the zergs who only 6 pool. Show me one in GM, please. There was actionjesuz or w/e, I'm pretty sure he fell off the face of earth a year ago. Show me the Terran who is 3rax/1-1-1 into GM please. Even the cheesiest Terran players in GM like Specialist have had to learn to macro. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:14 Acritter wrote: I'd be totally on your side if this actually happened at a competitive level. As-is, the pros don't have a problem with this. Learn how to beat this or stop complaining. The problem isn't that "omg toss OP", it's that you're not good enough to defend those all-ins. Yea, but someone who would probably be mid masters at best with T/Z can be good enough to execute those strategies and beat GMs. Seems alright to me.. yea... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Quick, someone tell the Protoss progamers how to win with only 1base all-ins. Relax. There are surely just as many Zergs and Terrans who do the same. And quite frankly, who sucks more: the player who wins a cheesy all-in game, or the player who doesn't scout it and plays too greedy to hold off the push? And that goes for any race. Cheese and all-ins are part of the game. If you want nr20, go back to fastest possible maps. Yeah, I am really confused how someone looses over and over to players who only use one or two, cheesy, all in builds. If you see them all the time, why not just blind counter them or player super safe? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43779 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote: Uh... Where are the zergs who only 6 pool. Show me one in GM, please. There was actionjesuz or w/e, I'm pretty sure he fell off the face of earth a year ago. Show me the Terran who is 3rax/1-1-1 into GM please. Even the cheesiest Terran players in GM like Specialist have had to learn to macro. Seriously? Why not try searching on TL? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755 Just one of many. And I didn't even need to open up a new page. And besides, that's *just* 6pooling. Why not include other cheesy all-ins like baneling busts and roach all-ins, etc.? Go do some research  EDIT: And if you don't think you can marine/ scv all-in each game or 1-1-1 all-in or 11/11 or bunker rush or do other cheesy 1-base all-ins as Terran and get into GM... I don't know what you're smoking, but I'd like some | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 28 2012 01:57 Rob28 wrote: Hint: Zealots can't shoot at range or hit air units. Kite with cshells + starport. Zeals no problem anymore. Basic stuff really, i feel embarassed for even having to point it out. Hint: Archons can shoot air, storm rapes air, feedback rapes banshee/BC. What league has this worked for you in? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote: Uh... Where are the zergs who only 6 pool. Show me one in GM, please. There was actionjesuz or w/e, I'm pretty sure he fell off the face of earth a year ago. Show me the Terran who is 3rax/1-1-1 into GM please. Even the cheesiest Terran players in GM like Specialist have had to learn to macro. Bad Habit. He had a whole tread about how to make it to GM by only 6 pooling and did it for several seasons. He is not a bad player and just wanted to prove it could be done. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Seriously? Why not try searching on TL? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755 Just one of many. And I didn't even need to open up a new page. And besides, that's *just* 6pooling. Why not include other cheesy all-ins like baneling busts and roach all-ins, etc.? Go do some research SERIOUSLY? Do your own research. That thread is from MONTHS ago. The guy is 3-2 in masters league now, hardly GM at all. Looks like just as AcitonJesuz, this guy fell straight off the face of the earth because guess what, you cant fricken 6 pool to GM. Anyways, I;ve seen that post before, I read it when it was first posted. Everyone with a brain knew that he wasn't going to stick around in GM. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote: Uh... Where are the zergs who only 6 pool. Show me one in GM, please. There was actionjesuz or w/e, I'm pretty sure he fell off the face of earth a year ago. Show me the Terran who is 3rax/1-1-1 into GM please. Even the cheesiest Terran players in GM like Specialist have had to learn to macro. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755 Made it to rank 1 gm on the korean server. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332371 Made it to gm in season 2, maintained top master. There. I showed 2 players who cheesed their way up to GM with terran and zerg. Now please stop your unsubstantiated whining and actually post something constructive. There is a simple reason why cheese works.1: Poor scouting. 2: People, even in the GM league, can't micro properly to defend something which everyone knows "how to react to". Edit: On April 28 2012 03:23 SupLilSon wrote: SERIOUSLY? Do your own research. That thread is from MONTHS ago. The guy is 3-2 in masters league now, hardly GM at all. Looks like just as AcitonJesuz, this guy fell straight off the face of the earth because guess what, you cant fricken 6 pool to GM. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755¤tpage=37#724 How about you read the thread. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43779 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:23 SupLilSon wrote: SERIOUSLY? Do your own research. That thread is from MONTHS ago. The guy is 3-2 in masters league now, hardly GM at all. Looks like just as AcitonJesuz, this guy fell straight off the face of the earth because guess what, you cant fricken 6 pool to GM. What's that river in Egypt called again? + Show Spoiler + Eet eez called De Nile? He already got into GM using exactly one cheesy all-in build; not even using any others. That's the exact proof that it's not just Protoss. Get over it. And if you don't think you can marine/ scv all-in each game and/ or 1-1-1 all-in and/ or 11/11 and/ or bunker rush or do other cheesy 1-base all-ins as Terran and get into GM... I don't know what you're smoking, but I'd like some | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:26 Heh_ wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755 Made it to rank 1 gm on the korean server. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332371 Made it to gm in season 2, maintained top master. There. I showed 2 players who cheesed their way up to GM with terran and zerg. Now please stop your unsubstantiated whining and actually post something constructive. There is a simple reason why cheese works.1: Poor scouting. 2: People, even in the GM league, can't micro properly to defend something which everyone knows "how to react to". Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755¤tpage=37#724 How about you read the thread. Yea, neither of those players are remotely near GM anymore. S2 doesn't mean crap. Deezer/Combatex were top10 GM Season 2 and such. Please stop providing completely and utterly laughable "proof". | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 28 2012 03:26 Heh_ wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755 Made it to rank 1 gm on the korean server. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332371 Made it to gm in season 2, maintained top master. There. I showed 2 players who cheesed their way up to GM with terran and zerg. Now please stop your unsubstantiated whining and actually post something constructive. There is a simple reason why cheese works.1: Poor scouting. 2: People, even in the GM league, can't micro properly to defend something which everyone knows "how to react to". Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283755¤tpage=37#724 How about you read the thread. On April 01 2012 19:27 Bad_Habit wrote: thanks to your glory input i just made #1 gm on the korean server. thank you alot pro, im willing to share all the money ill earn in tournaments withy ou know. u had to be a genius to figure that out Made it to #1 on the Korea server as of April 1, 2012. I guess it can't be done. Unless because this is 27 days old, it does not count. | ||
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