EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 199
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krell
United States109 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
While a Stalker buff has a vague appeal since I use them, it would make it a bit too easy to get momentum with certain timings. My personal problem is with the design of so much dead space on maps for air units to just be left alone. It's just silly and takes away from the skill in using drops/mutalisks. I have no clue where this came into play as I can't remember a BW map with these egregious deadzones. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:56 Horseballs wrote: Do something, anything to make it so that protoss is just as strong as it is now, while giving the protoss player a mechanical requirement to control his deathball that is on par with the mechanical requirements of controlling a terran ball to maximum efficiency. this way balance doesn't change, but there is a more level playing field throughout the game I agree with this. Perhaps do something about Chargelots and make storm have like a 3 second cooldown or something. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:09 da_head wrote: HAHAHAHA. This has to be the stupidest post i've ever fuckin see (and that's saying a lot). Stalkers are pretty much the most cost inefficient units in the game. Vikings on the fuckin ground do more damage. Marauders and roaches have WAYY more dps and stalkers cost the most. OO QQ they have mobility. Are you honestly trying to argue that stalkers have more mobility than mutas? Dear god. Also protip: mutas are harassing units, not to be used in a straight up engagement. Stalkers do more DPS than roaches and have 33% more range to deal that damage with. As far as the muta comparison, I never said they were more mobile, I said they are about 90% as mobile. They DO however have 1 base armor, 2x the range, 40 more health and equal/higher DPS. Oh yeah, they scale better with upgrades too. The funny part is that you try to justify the difference by calling Mutas a "harassing unit" and somehow think that makes everything ok. Maybe Stalkers should have their stats reduced because they can harass too... | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:56 Jermstuddog wrote: The answer has always been simple, make marines less good and buff in other areas. Siege tanks and ravens could both use meaningful buffs without ruining any MU right now. Better hellions would be nice so long as they could somehow avoid the worker rape. Essentially, you balance out the skill curve on Terran by removing their massive micro potential and bring them in line with the rest of the game. Hell no, that is the single worst suggestion in the history of SC2. Terrans don't need to be nerfed to be put on foot with the rest of the races, the rest of the races need to be given micro potential to be on the same level of difficulty as terran. That suggestion is idiotic, it reduces the depth of the game, by reducing micro potential. The real culprits are FG and FF, because they really reduce micro potential. Once they are cast it limits the in combat options you have. I'd rather them be removed and the two races rebalanced to produce more micro potential. As for your other issues like Stalkers I think its more a learn to play issue rather then a balance issue. I see pro players handle toss pushes well enough if they engage in the right places and force the toss to waste FF. A typical toss push will involve 10 sentries with either mass blink stalkers or 3-4 immortals. The key is to engage the toss early before he reaches the base of the zerg, and do it in open areas, do it as many times as possible until his FF are spent, then you can go in, flank and he will die. No amount of blink micro can help against speed roaches that outnumber the toss army 2-3 times. If you are struggling versus blink stalkers with roaches then you either over droned and couldn't pump out enough roaches in time to hold, your injects where terrible and you didn't have the larva to reinforce, or you failed to hold in one of his light pressures, lost too many drones and the follow up killed you. You also don't understand how mutas work. Mutas are a bulk units, they become stronger and stronger the more you have, mostly due to bounce of the attack. Stalkers have nothing on mutas, they need sight to blink up cliffs and they move pathetically slow compared to mutas, which can dart around the map and cause serious damage. Mutas can go into a base, do damage and fly out quickly. Stalkers if they blink in, they can't go out for another 10 seconds, that's the perfect time to pounce and kill them, provided you have roaches and also some lings in position (which you should if you know he has blink, and because you have overlords to watch them come). It's just that now a days Protoss have learned better how to defend against mutas, leave cannons and HT behind and thus minimize economic damage. It doesn't mean mutas aren't good, if you give them an opening they will tear you apart and can put you on the back foot so much it is hard to recover. Edit: Hilarious, stalkers actually scale terribly with upgrades compared to roaches. A stalker only gets +1 attack from weapons upgrade while a roach gets + 2 attack per upgrade. And armor upgrades are only half as effective for stalkers, because shield upgrades don't come into the game until late game. Also, a stalker has a base damage of 10 (14 vs armored), 1.44 attack speed, roach has 145 HP and 1 base armor, that means that it takes 12 shots for a stalker to kill a roach. A roach has 16 damage and 2 sec attack speed, it takes only 11 shots to kill a stalker. After they get 1 attack upgrade it only takes 10 shots to kill a stalker, even with 1 armor upgrade, because roach will do 18 damage, while a stalker will only have 2 armor. So the faster attack speed of stalkers and range is counter-acted somewhat by the high damage and high speed of roaches themselves. 1 Stalker costs as much as 2 roaches, if you inject correctly you should always be able to overwhelm a stalker force. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:52 Jermstuddog wrote: None of anything you said has anything to do with late game Stalkers. If you don't have Infestor by the late game I'm not sure what to tell you. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:19 Shiori wrote: If you don't have Infestor by the late game I'm not sure what to tell you. Infestors are not an end-all-be-all counter to Stalkers, much the same way Sentries do not kill roaches by themselves. Your posts are neither clever nor insightful. | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:22 Jermstuddog wrote: Infestors are not an end-all-be-all counter to Stalkers, much the same way Sentries do not kill roaches by themselves. Your posts are neither clever nor insightful. No, he was right, if you don't have infestors by the late game you flat out deserve to lose. While by themselves they can't win a game, if used to support an army they can be deadly and devastating. Just the ability to prevent enemies from splitting or blinking away, and to help set up surrounds is golden to zergs, a race that is entirely reliant on flanks and surrounds. You need infestors, just as protoss needs sentries and HT. | ||
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krell
United States109 Posts
Remove Zealot Legs Remove the "w" warp gate button. Zergs dont have a larva button. T doesnt have a rax button. Why should P? To a more extreme extent: Make it so you have to click an ability for collossi to attack? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:19 Destructicon wrote: Hell no, that is the single worst suggestion in the history of SC2. Terrans don't need to be nerfed to be put on foot with the rest of the races, the rest of the races need to be given micro potential to be on the same level of difficulty as terran. That suggestion is idiotic, it reduces the depth of the game, by reducing micro potential. The real culprits are FG and FF, because they really reduce micro potential. Once they are cast it limits the in combat options you have. I'd rather them be removed and the two races rebalanced to produce more micro potential. As for your other issues like Stalkers I think its more a learn to play issue rather then a balance issue. I see pro players handle toss pushes well enough if they engage in the right places and force the toss to waste FF. A typical toss push will involve 10 sentries with either mass blink stalkers or 3-4 immortals. The key is to engage the toss early before he reaches the base of the zerg, and do it in open areas, do it as many times as possible until his FF are spent, then you can go in, flank and he will die. No amount of blink micro can help against speed roaches that outnumber the toss army 2-3 times. If you are struggling versus blink stalkers with roaches then you either over droned and couldn't pump out enough roaches in time to hold, your injects where terrible and you didn't have the larva to reinforce, or you failed to hold in one of his light pressures, lost too many drones and the follow up killed you. You also don't understand how mutas work. Mutas are a bulk units, they become stronger and stronger the more you have, mostly due to bounce of the attack. Stalkers have nothing on mutas, they need sight to blink up cliffs and they move pathetically slow compared to mutas, which can dart around the map and cause serious damage. Mutas can go into a base, do damage and fly out quickly. Stalkers if they blink in, they can't go out for another 10 seconds, that's the perfect time to pounce and kill them, provided you have roaches and also some lings in position (which you should if you know he has blink, and because you have overlords to watch them come). It's just that now a days Protoss have learned better how to defend against mutas, leave cannons and HT behind and thus minimize economic damage. It doesn't mean mutas aren't good, if you give them an opening they will tear you apart and can put you on the back foot so much it is hard to recover. I am not here to cry about my shortcomings as a player. I know the things I need to work on, and even if I remain at my current level, I am probably better than 95% of the other posters who visit this forum. What I am talking about is a specific shortcoming I have noted in the toolsets given in the game. Zerg does not go spine/brood/infestor because its imba, Zerg goes that route because nothing else fucking works. All the reasons Blizzard gave for the phoenix upgrade already exist to justify a roach upgrade... I am simply pointing out the obvious. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:41 krell wrote: Two simple ways to make protoss ever so slightly more challenging: Remove Zealot Legs Remove the "w" warp gate button. Zergs dont have a larva button. T doesnt have a rax button. Why should P? To a more extreme extent: Make it so you have to click an ability for collossi to attack? No way anyone can take this seriously. Remove Charge and you can essentially remove the zealot because it's worthless. That's like saying blizzard should remove stim, except stim has an even bigger effect than charge. Why shouldn't we? Well because it's a terrible idea. Protoss should have the "W" key because their warpin requires mouseclicks. Why don't we just require Terran and Zerg to use clicks as well? Well because that's just how protoss works, but this way reinforcing from gateways is at least a little bit easier. And I'm not even gonna comment on that last one. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:56 Jermstuddog wrote: The answer has always been simple, make marines less good and buff in other areas. Siege tanks and ravens could both use meaningful buffs without ruining any MU right now. Better hellions would be nice so long as they could somehow avoid the worker rape. Remove the Thor mana bar and they are suddenly viable in TvP again. Essentially, you balance out the skill curve on Terran by removing their massive micro potential and bring them in line with the rest of the game. Wait so you don't want to balance out the skill curve...you want to remove it? Wow...I mean I've seen some pretty strange ideas on this board but to actively take skill out of the game is a new one on me, especially because people are so adament it's every bit as deep as BW was. You want to the do the opposite. You want to bring the other two races up to the micro potential of Terrans...not remove the micro potential of Terrans. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:31 Destructicon wrote: No, he was right, if you don't have infestors by the late game you flat out deserve to lose. While by themselves they can't win a game, if used to support an army they can be deadly and devastating. Just the ability to prevent enemies from splitting or blinking away, and to help set up surrounds is golden to zergs, a race that is entirely reliant on flanks and surrounds. You need infestors, just as protoss needs sentries and HT. Ok, if we're playing that game, let's go for it. Stalkers get fungaled, roaches move in, get chopped up by force fields and picked apart by 6 range stalkers without the ability to retaliate. Zerg now has to make a choice: either blow all your energy on ITs in hopes of winning the fight, where the Stalkers will have the option of blinking away, or keep their energy for fungals and hope they have enough roaches left 15 seconds later to put up a fight. Either way, this theoretical stalker/sentry vs roach/infestor is rarely the case. More often we have Colossi involved, and depending how late the game goes, archons, HTs, a mothership, maybe even void rays. Zerg can add Broods and... replace his roaches with spines... I guess add a few corruptors to deal with the mothership/void rays. The point of my argument is not that Protoss deathballs are OMG IMBA or anything. It's that there is a huge imbalance in lategame where Protoss has a mobile army and Zerg has... spines... | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:53 Jayme wrote: Wait so you don't want to balance out the skill curve...you want to remove it? Wow...I mean I've seen some pretty strange ideas on this board but to actively take skill out of the game is a new one on me, especially because people are so adament it's every bit as deep as BW was. You want to the do the opposite. You want to bring the other two races up to the micro potential of Terrans...not remove the micro potential of Terrans. There is something to this idea though. Add more versatility and micro possibilities elsewhere! It kills me to see that you can win anything with Marine as long as you're gosu enough, and I play Terran myself... | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:17 Jermstuddog wrote: Stalkers do more DPS than roaches and have 33% more range to deal that damage with. As far as the muta comparison, I never said they were more mobile, I said they are about 90% as mobile. They DO however have 1 base armor, 2x the range, 40 more health and equal/higher DPS. Oh yeah, they scale better with upgrades too. The funny part is that you try to justify the difference by calling Mutas a "harassing unit" and somehow think that makes everything ok. Maybe Stalkers should have their stats reduced because they can harass too... But the stalker does have bad stats for straight up fights because of their mobility already... Roaches will absolutely tear stalkers apart in a straight up fight, that's why you have to blink micro and use forcefields to have a fighting chance. So yeah what are you even talking about? What you're asking for is already in the game. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:53 Jayme wrote: Wait so you don't want to balance out the skill curve...you want to remove it? Wow...I mean I've seen some pretty strange ideas on this board but to actively take skill out of the game is a new one on me, especially because people are so adament it's every bit as deep as BW was. You want to the do the opposite. You want to bring the other two races up to the micro potential of Terrans...not remove the micro potential of Terrans. Stop reading it as "remove micro," I didn't say that. I said "make marines less good". If I could wear the balance cap for a day, that would mean reducing marine HP by 5, nothing more. You could still do your crazy splits and all that is great, but the difference between 40 and 45 hp for marines is the difference between 4 and 5 stalker shots, 3 and 4 Zealot hits, 2 and 3 immortal hits, and 1 and 2 archon hits. Keep your micro, I don't want it to go away, but there should be meaningful ways of dealing with a 50 mineral/1 supply unit that doesn't involve blanketing the area with AoE damage. A small change like -5 hp does that. Keep your micro, but make the unit less godly when that micro is applied, or in response to the poster who asked the question, when it isnt. The important thing about nerfing the marine is that you MUST buff Terran elsewhere. I, for one, don't understand why Blizzard is trying to ignore the inevitable. | ||
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
On April 10 2012 02:07 pezit wrote: But the stalker does have bad stats for straight up fights because of their mobility already... Roaches will absolutely tear stalkers apart in a straight up fight, that's why you have to blink micro and use forcefields to have a fighting chance. So yeah what are you even talking about? What you're asking for is already in the game. Go throw an equal amount of roaches and stalkers in a unit tester right now. I beg you. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
How about splitting stim in two different "levels"? The reason for PvT midgame being heavily in favor of terran is because once stim and eventually medivac support kick in, that just ups MM extremely hard in terms of damage output, to a point where protoss can't keep up in the midgame, while protoss units are still a lot more expensive. What if there was a stim lvl 1 upgrade that had the same effects as regular stim except being tuned down in terms of damage output and speed? And then there could be a stim lvl 2 which works just as now or maybe even a little bit more powerful for lategame terran. Could be available after armory or something like that. This is not a balance suggestion at all, it's just an idea. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On April 10 2012 02:10 JacobShock wrote: Go throw an equal amount of roaches and stalkers in a unit tester right now. I beg you. Are you seriously this stupid? Throw equal amount of marines and carriers against each other, LOL marines suck!!!1! | ||
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mjf
United States436 Posts
On April 10 2012 02:09 Jermstuddog wrote: Stop reading it as "remove micro," I didn't say that. I said "make marines less good". If I could wear the balance cap for a day, that would mean reducing marine HP by 5, nothing more. You could still do your crazy splits and all that is great, but the difference between 40 and 45 hp for marines is the difference between 4 and 5 stalker shots, 3 and 4 Zealot hits, 2 and 3 immortal hits, and 1 and 2 archon hits. Keep your micro, I don't want it to go away, but there should be meaningful ways of dealing with a 50 mineral/1 supply unit that doesn't involve blanketing the area with AoE damage. A small change like -5 hp does that. Keep your micro, but make the unit "removing their massive micro potential" requires clarification then | ||
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