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On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you.
Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way.
The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance.
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On April 10 2012 04:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you. Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way. The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance.
Lings already do just fine against non-blink Stalkers. If anything, Protoss are the ones without any real offensive Gateway options against large Roach armies. That's why you see us resorting to Immortals or fast Blink plays.
Honestly, it just seems like you want to be able to build a unit and then just write off another unit for the rest of the game. This is Starcraft and it doesn't work that way.
Never thought I'd see the day someone complains about the Roach being too weak against Toss.
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On April 10 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you. Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way. The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance. Lings already do just fine against non-blink Stalkers. If anything, Protoss are the ones without any real offensive Gateway options against large Roach armies. That's why you see us resorting to Immortals or fast Blink plays. Honestly, it just seems like you want to be able to build a unit and then just write off another unit for the rest of the game. This is Starcraft and it doesn't work that way. Never thought I'd see the day someone complains about the Roach being too weak against Toss.
Alright, now work on keeping the argument on topic.
I am talking about LATE GAME BLINK STALKERS being too mobile while simultaneously acting as the meat to the Protoss deathballs.
The phoenix was given a +2 upgrade at the fleet beacon to deal with the harass that Mutas are capable of in the late-game. I am simply stating that Zerg should have a similar upgrade to deal with the Stalkers.
What's good for goose is good for the gander.
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On April 10 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:
Honestly, it just seems like you want to be able to build a unit and then just write off another unit for the rest of the game. This is Starcraft and it doesn't work that way.
Like Colossi and FFs can write off an entire ground army?
Zergs don't want it to be this stupidly simplistic, the game has too many 'hard-counters', but hydralisks seem like they were meant to fill the role of 'good vs stalker; (not super hard counter though) that roaches actually fill better, both in cost (until blink at least) and due to speed (if not enough hydras get caught by blink stalkers, they're doomed, so they're quite cost-inefficient if you ever get caught by the stalkers with too few), zerglings are rubbish compared to what they were and stalkers have blink, so defending bsaes which have tight areas and corners for stalkers to back into, the lings don't end up 'countering' the stalkers, the Stalkers can even just get some free kills and then choose to exit a base. Zergs would all love to use less roaches, but the other units that would supposedly fill their roles are actually just less effective. Buff my lings, hydras and corruptors and you can nerf the roaches, sure, but I can't control the patches and apparently Blizzard are happy with zerg almost being forced to use a lot of roaches in every match-up*.
*All match-ups may need a little time before the necessity arrives, obviously, but only certain protoss and terran playstyles seem to allow zergs to CHOOSE not to make them.
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^ by the same logic I could ask for termplars glueing units in place... Thats your answer to lategame stalkers, 1 fungal and theyre all dead. And zerg is favored in basetrades anyway, if toss kills your base, just kill his and build your usual 100 spines wall
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On April 10 2012 05:00 -y0shi- wrote:
^ by the same logic I could ask for termplars glueing units in place... Thats your answer to lategame stalkers, 1 fungal and theyre all dead. And zerg is favored in basetrades anyway, if toss kills your base, just kill his and build your usual 100 spines wall
Except, you already have an ability that locks my units in place, and its available a whole lot earlier than fungal is.
Oh yeah... It lasts 4x as long too... If you haven't figured it out yet, its called force field.
I guess that means you would be in agreement with me then? +1 votes for +2 roach range!
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On April 10 2012 04:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you. Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way. The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance.
I think the situation can be better described as a scaling problem. Roaches work great against stalkers in small/medium numbers, but since stalkers have superior range, they scale better to larger armies, especially when blink is mixed in. Units with better range always scale better than units with smaller range.
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On April 10 2012 05:10 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:00 -y0shi- wrote:
^ by the same logic I could ask for termplars glueing units in place... Thats your answer to lategame stalkers, 1 fungal and theyre all dead. And zerg is favored in basetrades anyway, if toss kills your base, just kill his and build your usual 100 spines wall Except, you already have an ability that locks my units in place, and its available a whole lot earlier than fungal is. Oh yeah... It lasts 4x as long too... If you haven't figured it out yet, its called force field. I guess that means you would be in agreement with me then? +1 votes for +2 roach range!
Air units... And btw its not lieeke you cant get out of forcefields as zerg..
And the prolem with your idea is that roaches actually have some use in real battles and would be way too strong and phoenix are only good for getting rid of mutas, theyre (and especially the range) useless afterwards anyways
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On April 10 2012 05:10 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:00 -y0shi- wrote:
^ by the same logic I could ask for termplars glueing units in place... Thats your answer to lategame stalkers, 1 fungal and theyre all dead. And zerg is favored in basetrades anyway, if toss kills your base, just kill his and build your usual 100 spines wall Except, you already have an ability that locks my units in place, and its available a whole lot earlier than fungal is. Oh yeah... It lasts 4x as long too... If you haven't figured it out yet, its called force field. I guess that means you would be in agreement with me then? +1 votes for +2 roach range!
I'd rather have the Hydra fixed, the fact that its only used in a non-gimmicky fashion in one match up is pathetic imo. Remove light status, and give it a speed upgrade at Hive like they will in HOTS. Same for Ultra's, they need a speed upgrade.
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On April 10 2012 05:20 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On April 10 2012 05:00 -y0shi- wrote:
^ by the same logic I could ask for termplars glueing units in place... Thats your answer to lategame stalkers, 1 fungal and theyre all dead. And zerg is favored in basetrades anyway, if toss kills your base, just kill his and build your usual 100 spines wall Except, you already have an ability that locks my units in place, and its available a whole lot earlier than fungal is. Oh yeah... It lasts 4x as long too... If you haven't figured it out yet, its called force field. I guess that means you would be in agreement with me then? +1 votes for +2 roach range! I'd rather have the Hydra fixed, the fact that its only used in a non-gimmicky fashion in one match up is pathetic imo. Remove light status, and give it a speed upgrade at Hive like they will in HOTS. Same for Ultra's, they need a speed upgrade.
 Ultralisk had speed upgrade, but blizzard changed in a patch that it would just have the speed without the upgrade.
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On April 10 2012 04:55 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:41 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you. Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way. The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance. Lings already do just fine against non-blink Stalkers. If anything, Protoss are the ones without any real offensive Gateway options against large Roach armies. That's why you see us resorting to Immortals or fast Blink plays. Honestly, it just seems like you want to be able to build a unit and then just write off another unit for the rest of the game. This is Starcraft and it doesn't work that way. Never thought I'd see the day someone complains about the Roach being too weak against Toss. Alright, now work on keeping the argument on topic. I am talking about LATE GAME BLINK STALKERS being too mobile while simultaneously acting as the meat to the Protoss deathballs. The phoenix was given a +2 upgrade at the fleet beacon to deal with the harass that Mutas are capable of in the late-game. I am simply stating that Zerg should have a similar upgrade to deal with the Stalkers. What's good for goose is good for the gander.
It's basically already in the game: the infestor energy upgrade. If you're worried that it doesn't come out at the same time as a fleet beacon upgrade I guess they could move it to the ultralisk cavern or something.
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On April 10 2012 05:20 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On April 10 2012 05:00 -y0shi- wrote:
^ by the same logic I could ask for termplars glueing units in place... Thats your answer to lategame stalkers, 1 fungal and theyre all dead. And zerg is favored in basetrades anyway, if toss kills your base, just kill his and build your usual 100 spines wall Except, you already have an ability that locks my units in place, and its available a whole lot earlier than fungal is. Oh yeah... It lasts 4x as long too... If you haven't figured it out yet, its called force field. I guess that means you would be in agreement with me then? +1 votes for +2 roach range! I'd rather have the Hydra fixed, the fact that its only used in a non-gimmicky fashion in one match up is pathetic imo. Remove light status, and give it a speed upgrade at Hive like they will in HOTS. Same for Ultra's, they need a speed upgrade.
Hmm, what exactly would change the removal of the light status?
It's not like when you see Hydras as Protoss you produce Pheonixes to kill them (it's the opposite in fact) or you instantly build mass reapers or research blue flames as Terran.
Nah, about every unit is better than the hydralisk, light or not :D
The speed upgrade could change something on the other hand.
The thing is with the hydralisk: it's basically the marine (high damage, low HP, ground-to-ground and ground-to-air fast single target range damage), but with less damage and less HP for cost, less mobile off creep. Sickest unit right there :D
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^I agree with the unit 'critical mass' scaling, which is another problem with using hydras in that you need a supply-inefficient number to deal with void rays and even then, if they attempted to fight void rays in a location that allowed the void rays to stack, you can have a lot more air units firing at the small number of ground units firing with the same range. Stacking of air units can render the AA ground units cost-inefficient. That's without taking into accuont fungal growth, but then it only hollds and deals some damage; zerg could argue something similar against protoss for say stalker firing against mutalisks and landing one storm under (on) the mutalisks, but stalkers are actually already supply-efficient against mutalisks unlike the hydra:void example. Held and damaged by 16% or damaged by 33%-66% (supposing minimum of half lands), causing the mutas to fly out but take free stalkers hits as the do anyway.
(That was meant as an extension of my comments about certain units needing buffs before races can complain about zergs having to boringly amass roaches as well as an extension of the argument against all this "OMG 1 fungal insta-kill" BS.
y0shi, that's rot, did you not see just a tiny bit above, I pointed out the example of one fungal NOT killing an entire group of phoenixes? It only 'dooms' them if there is a sufficient force to abuse that fungal in perhaps just over that 4 seconds that fungal lasts and that one fungal will only snare a small group of stalkers to pick off, not your entire bleedin' army. o_O
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On April 10 2012 04:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you. Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way. The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance.
Forgetting the fact that phoenixes cannot attach builds or massive ground units, the idea that roaches should shoot as far as marauders or stalkers is just silly. Roaches are dirt cheap and an + 2 range upgrade would allow zerg to simply build roaches for the entire game. There is a reason they have such short rannge The number of problems it would create for PvZ would amazing, but it would also mess up TvZ in ways I cannot even begin to understand.
Roaches would outrange marines. That would not be ok.
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On April 10 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you. Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way. The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance. Forgetting the fact that phoenixes cannot attach builds or massive ground units, the idea that roaches should shoot as far as marauders or stalkers is just silly. Roaches are dirt cheap and an + 2 range upgrade would allow zerg to simply build roaches for the entire game. There is a reason they have such short rannge The number of problems it would create for PvZ would amazing, but it would also mess up TvZ in ways I cannot even begin to understand. Roaches would outrange marines. That would not be ok.
(Bolded part)
This is pretty much what they do anyway as of now. Imagine with +2 range :D
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On April 10 2012 05:30 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:20 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On April 10 2012 05:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On April 10 2012 05:00 -y0shi- wrote:
^ by the same logic I could ask for termplars glueing units in place... Thats your answer to lategame stalkers, 1 fungal and theyre all dead. And zerg is favored in basetrades anyway, if toss kills your base, just kill his and build your usual 100 spines wall Except, you already have an ability that locks my units in place, and its available a whole lot earlier than fungal is. Oh yeah... It lasts 4x as long too... If you haven't figured it out yet, its called force field. I guess that means you would be in agreement with me then? +1 votes for +2 roach range! I'd rather have the Hydra fixed, the fact that its only used in a non-gimmicky fashion in one match up is pathetic imo. Remove light status, and give it a speed upgrade at Hive like they will in HOTS. Same for Ultra's, they need a speed upgrade. Hmm, what exactly would change the removal of the light status? It's not like when you see Hydras as Protoss you produce Pheonixes to kill them (it's the opposite in fact) or you instantly build mass reapers or research blue flames as Terran. Nah, about every unit is better than the hydralisk, light or not :D The speed upgrade could change something on the other hand. The thing is with the hydralisk: it's basically the marine (high damage, low HP, ground-to-ground and ground-to-air fast single target range damage), but with less damage and less HP for cost, less mobile off creep. Sickest unit right there :D
Indeed, fawn over the hydra all you like, that doesn't make the unit remotely useful.
While potentially having a speed upgrade in HotS sounds nice, I can't think of a scenario where I would actually research said upgrade given the sub-par stats on the unit itself. The few situations I would actually want hydras in the current game, speed is of little concern and hive tech is nowhere in sight.
Unless hydras get like +20 hp or -25 gas cost, I don't see them becoming useful in HotS either. Speed, while a major problem with the unit, is the least of its major problems. Cost and utility trump speed by far.
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On April 10 2012 05:45 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote:On April 10 2012 04:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you. Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way. The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance. Forgetting the fact that phoenixes cannot attach builds or massive ground units, the idea that roaches should shoot as far as marauders or stalkers is just silly. Roaches are dirt cheap and an + 2 range upgrade would allow zerg to simply build roaches for the entire game. There is a reason they have such short rannge The number of problems it would create for PvZ would amazing, but it would also mess up TvZ in ways I cannot even begin to understand. Roaches would outrange marines. That would not be ok. (Bolded part) This is pretty much what they do anyway as of now. Imagine with +2 range :D
Zerg marauders. Nothing wrong with that. =D
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I agree about hydra comments only that, as pointed out by ZenithM, even their damage output isn't really so good as people like to think, so the actual strength would need a buff anyway. Removing Light status is something I've thought of before, it would make them just a bit more viable as support vs mech (no more much higher damage from hellions, I'm thinking of hellion thor heavy compositions with not many tanks) as well as making them able to fight off phoenixes, though that would be lame for phoenixes. I think a hit point buff to make hydralisks actually last a little longer would be an important buff if they are to be useful. Occasionally I play Starjeweled and it's so disappointing that Hydras and Ultras feel so much more how they should in that game. :Þ + Show Spoiler +Mutas and ultras are actually too good there. <.<
A speed buff for ultras would not even be appropriate, how can you even think that? The troubles for them are
1 - gimpy AI, so that would need to be fixed by either the HotS burrow charge OR being able to walk over all small (marine, zergling, baneling, zealot, worker etc. ~one hex) units to reach a target, allied or not.
2 - If the splash is meant to make much of a difference, increase the range/area of the 25% splash area. I think Blizzard said they are actually doing this in HotS, but if so, I don't understand why they aren't trying that now and then deciding whether to keep it based on how it turns out.
3 - marines are too strong, serious problem for a lot of units. If Ultras had 1 more armour by default, or chitinous plating added three, not two armour, or marines dealt 5 base damage or 5+1 vs light, ultras might feel suitably strong. Actually, just dealing more like 19 base damage would do it too, if 3 cleaves rather than four are normally required to kill the marines, it would exponentially increase each ultralisks' chance to survive, by ACTUALLY killing marines instead of medivacs keeping them mostly dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. + Show Spoiler +With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
Inigo Montoya: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.
So if ultras have problems, it's not speed, no no. It's making use of that speed, making use of their splash and actually resisting the absurd damage output and/or ever removing the source of the absurd damage without constant reliance on fungal growth, banelings or a lot of hopefully expendable zerglings to do that job instead.
+2 range for roaches would just ensure that zergs are insulted more and more often for trying to use the only smallish selection of good units they were provided with.
EDIT: They'd still be Zerg marauders that are hard countered by Terran marauders without even taking stim packs into account. 
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Okey, im just silver (prolly gold within the next season) so maybe my opinion doesn't count, but am i the only one that thinks storm is too good? Yeah, Terran has EMP and you can't dogde it the way you can dodge storm. But the thing with storm is that you can throw 5 storms at a bio-ball and it will alwas do damage, while the emp will only take down the shield and after that the emp is useless. Everytime my protoss opponent makes templars i know im gonna lose because my army just evaporates every time he use storm against my army.
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On April 10 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On April 10 2012 04:26 Shiori wrote:On April 10 2012 04:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
If roaches aren't supposed to counter Stalkers, or at least be able to trade cost-effectively, I don't even know what to say... We must not be playing the same game. They cost essentially half as much. You find me a scenario where 1 Stalker beats 2 Roaches and I'll believe you. Reading comprehension bro, get some... I'm saying roaches DO counter Stalkers and it SHOULD be that way. The problem is that once blink comes into play, all this goes out the window. While that is fine for timing attacks and such, roaches should have a +2 range upgrade to put them back on top of that exchange because between supply caps, range differences, and blink, roaches don't stand a chance. Forgetting the fact that phoenixes cannot attach builds or massive ground units, the idea that roaches should shoot as far as marauders or stalkers is just silly. Roaches are dirt cheap and an + 2 range upgrade would allow zerg to simply build roaches for the entire game. There is a reason they have such short rannge The number of problems it would create for PvZ would amazing, but it would also mess up TvZ in ways I cannot even begin to understand. Roaches would outrange marines. That would not be ok.
I highly doubt 6 range roaches at hive tech would have any serious effect on ZvT. I have been using roaches in that MU a lot longer than most, and they're not desired for their leet deeps. You get a few of them to eat tank shots and that's about it.
3/3 stimmed marines with medivac and tank/marauder support should have little concern with 6 range roaches.
I for one, would not bother with roach range in this theoretical scenario.
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EPT
