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On November 03 2014 23:33 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it. Terran could get one in the form of the Tech Reactor, combining Tech Labs and Reactors into one and giving both the ability to quickly upgrade into them. This would make for a nice lategame upgrade at the Engineering Bay requiring both an Armory and a Fusion Core.
This would not even be close to inject larva and wg+cb.
But if those combined things has a duration instead for x cost and lategame, and they boost the buildtime+acts as a reactor it would probably be doable
Otherwise,
terran should get:
"parachute"
Parachute up to 10units anywhere wihin vision.
20sec duration till those units popup.
Its from a structure. The structure aims at a location and it parachute exactly the same units that is withing that aim(only work on ground units) for same cost and supply.
Something similar to CB. Instead of speeding up buildtime of a unit it acts as a reactor instead.
Possible to use on techlab structures also.
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On November 03 2014 23:33 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it. Terran could get one in the form of the Tech Reactor, combining Tech Labs and Reactors into one and giving both the ability to quickly upgrade into them. This would make for a nice lategame upgrade at the Engineering Bay requiring both an Armory and a Fusion Core.
It's funny, I came up with the same mechanic while thinking about it on the way to the supermarket just now. I guess because it already exists in the campaign?
My idea was something like: "Call Down Tech Reactor", temporarily upgrades either a reactor or a tech lab to a tech reactor. It could last for 60 seconds and the build time of tech lab units could be doubled (i.e. the unit you're producing in parallel takes twice as long for an effective 50% increase in building speed).
More along the lines of what you're thinking is just a Fusion Core upgrade to let Marauders build from reactors? That might work as well, all depending on the implementation / balance.
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On November 03 2014 23:33 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it. Terran could get one in the form of the Tech Reactor, combining Tech Labs and Reactors into one and giving both the ability to quickly upgrade into them. This would make for a nice lategame upgrade at the Engineering Bay requiring both an Armory and a Fusion Core.
I don't understand why Terran needs an additional upgrade or improvement to production when it can already be achieved by adding production facilities. The reactor already makes the Terran production facilities the most resource efficient improvement to production of primary units, which doesn't create an opportunity cost situation once invested in.
EDIT: Maevis' suggestion below is more reasonable, because it doesn't seem blatantly overpowered and has sufficient cost. However, it really just adds complexity to the race to without making it that much different. I guess there is a slight increase in flexibility, but the cost seem to make it fair at best and undesirable in most cases, especially if the upgrade prevents the production facility from producing.
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speaking of tech reactors I had the following in mind a while ago but was unsure of posting because it doesn't do a whole lot but add flexibility.
total cost 100/75
upgradeable from either tech lab or reactor
production time are the cost from the function you're adding
tech reactors function as either a reactor or tech lab, but never at the same time with the exception of researching
this would mean you can instantly switch from 2 hellions or 1 tank production without having to need a different factory or add-on swap, same for marines/marauders.
but the most important part is functioning as a reactor whilst still allowing upgrades, adding more flexibility to terran infrastructure, switching from a cloak banshee to medivacs? no problem! stim after reactor rax opening? no problem!
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On November 04 2014 00:16 SatedSC2 wrote:
Talking about buffing Terran when Terran is currently strong.
Good job guys.
Good job.
Its for lotv...
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On November 04 2014 00:11 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 23:33 Thezzy wrote:On November 03 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it. Terran could get one in the form of the Tech Reactor, combining Tech Labs and Reactors into one and giving both the ability to quickly upgrade into them. This would make for a nice lategame upgrade at the Engineering Bay requiring both an Armory and a Fusion Core. I don't understand why Terran needs an additional upgrade or improvement to production when it can already be achieved by adding production facilities. The reactor already makes the Terran production facilities the most resource efficient improvement to production of primary units, which doesn't create an opportunity cost situation once invested in.
Although I think combining addons into the tech/reactor is silly, I would just like to point out that the Reactor takes almost as long to build as a barracks and requires a production facility to be turned off for the duration. Without proper lift off micro, it would take almost 2 minutes to make a reactored barracks, something very common during mid/late game situations when Terran starts having to drop down raxes for mass marines.
I can promise you that if gateways cost 200/50 and took 110 seconds to construct that there would be a bloody uproar.
I'm not saying that Reactors are ludicrously expensive or anything of the kind--I'm saying its one of the smoothest and best improvements from Broodwar in the game. I wish that instead of a "tech lab" that there were 2-3 different non-reactor addons for different units that way each unit could be buffed more appropriately because of decreased accessibility creating an increased sense of specialization to them. But that's just me being greedy I think.
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On November 04 2014 00:11 Meavis wrote:
speaking of tech reactors I had the following in mind a while ago but was unsure of posting because it doesn't do a whole lot but add flexibility.
total cost 100/75
upgradeable from either tech lab or reactor
production time are the cost from the function you're adding
tech reactors function as either a reactor or tech lab, but never at the same time with the exception of researching
this would mean you can instantly switch from 2 hellions or 1 tank production without having to need a different factory or add-on swap, same for marines/marauders.
but the most important part is functioning as a reactor whilst still allowing upgrades, adding more flexibility to terran infrastructure, switching from a cloak banshee to medivacs? no problem! stim after reactor rax opening? no problem!
This whole idea is way to strong in the early game and useless in the late game, for me.
Upgrading with Reactors ( this idea leads to it ) with only the additional costs of another tech lab, will bring up strange 3 racs, 3 reactor, stim cs monster madness destruction builds.
Again, the idea of it is clear: Give Terran more flex., so that there is space to tune bio balance and design vise and achieve this flex by "mech it happen". But Tech-Reactors will not be the way, either because they come to late (fusion core lol ) or they will boost bio even more.
As a Terran player i would say, we do not need a macro ability like chrono or larva for bio. We got the macro ability "call down mule" and "call down supply", they help us alot during the mid game with bio. We need something to get "mech it happen", then there could come the rebalance of bio and the stop cry of p and z. As long mech units are only usefull as a side kick to your bio army, these discussions will go on.
But i am still convinced that if you want to achieve "more balance", you should adress the creepdependence of Z in TvZ and stop the MU being all about creepsitting and creepflaming.
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On November 04 2014 00:22 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 00:11 Meavis wrote:
speaking of tech reactors I had the following in mind a while ago but was unsure of posting because it doesn't do a whole lot but add flexibility.
total cost 100/75
upgradeable from either tech lab or reactor
production time are the cost from the function you're adding
tech reactors function as either a reactor or tech lab, but never at the same time with the exception of researching
this would mean you can instantly switch from 2 hellions or 1 tank production without having to need a different factory or add-on swap, same for marines/marauders.
but the most important part is functioning as a reactor whilst still allowing upgrades, adding more flexibility to terran infrastructure, switching from a cloak banshee to medivacs? no problem! stim after reactor rax opening? no problem! This whole idea is way to strong in the early game and useless in the late game, for me. Upgrading with Reactors ( this idea leads to it ) with only the additional costs of another tech lab, will bring up strange 3 racs, 3 reactor, stim cs monster madness destruction builds. Again, the idea of it is clear: Give Terran more flex., so that there is space to tune bio balance and design vise and achieve this flex by "mech it happen". But Tech-Reactors will not be the way, either because they come to late (fusion core lol ) or they will boost bio even more. As a Terran player i would say, we do not need a macro ability like chrono or larva for bio. We got the macro ability "call down mule" and "call down supply", they help us alot during the mid game with bio. We need something to get "mech it happen", then there could come the rebalance of bio and the stop cry of p and z. As long mech units are only usefull as a side kick to your bio army, these discussions will go on. But i am still convinced that if you want to achieve "more balance", you should adress the creepdependence of Z in TvZ and stop the MU being all about creepsitting and creepflaming.
The reason buffing add-ons won't work is because the problem with Mech is the army interaction, not the production capability. Mech can currently get to max easily (even with constant hellion runby) and mech can currently do timing attacks (2/2 attack timings are real)
The problem with mech is that once you have the army, it has no way to flexibly engage the opposing forces other than "I hope enough die to siege tank fire"
Which is not a plan.
Zerg, for example, would never do SH play without creep giving them free vision on the parts of the map their army isn't in.
BW Terran would never do mech play without widow mines providing free vision to areas their army is not in.
When Terrans play mech, they are not only slow, but blind, and end up in base race scenarios too easily.
Fixing production does not fix that problem.
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On November 03 2014 22:07 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:45 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Funny how some terrans were whining so hard when it was 'ZPcraft'.
And when terran wins everything it's all fine and shit.
Bias much?
It's pretty clear that Zerg is underperforming since HoTS release, Zerg won 2 out of 22 WCS events.
Zerg players just worse and make more mistakes? Doubt it.
It irks me to no end when people say Zerg has been underperforming in HOTS. No it hasn't. It's been strangely performing. 2013 s1 had 4 Zergs in ro8. s3 had equal ro32 distribution, 2 Zergs in ro4 and a Zerg in the finals. 2014 s1 had 16 P, 13 Z, and 3 T in ro32, and 2 Z in ro4. s2 had 14 P, 14 Z, and 4 T in ro32 and 2 Z in ro4. s3 had 16 P, 9 Z, and 7 T in ro32 and 3 Z in ro8. Every single Code S final in HOTS has had a Zerg in it (with possible exception of OSL). Zerg produced the single most consistent Code S player of HOTS. Zest might be the most consistent player of 2014, but soO was already a Code S finalist before non-Proleague viewers even knew who Zest was. Zerg foreigners have been by far the most successful in HOTS, with Snute and Scarlett having the best claims to best foreigner. If you think that's underperforming, you don't understand what it was like to be a Terran in 2014. You can cite regions other than KR, you can cite number of first place finishes to seconds, you can cite the number of household name Zergs, or the number of Zerg Blizzcon attendees, and those might all be valid points... so make them. Don't generalize.
haha. I am moved to tears. sitting on that throne for so long and for the longest time and then having to deal with a few hiccups really must have hurt terran's egos.
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On November 03 2014 23:18 ETisME wrote:
You are basically pointing out how to deal with the so called unbeatable deathball. so I guess it isn't unbeatable then because it just needs preparation, just like almost every other strategy?
The fact I am basically describing the WoL procedure to "handle" broods/infests could give you some pause, but whatever, ignoring the practical requirements of a plan in favor of the "but there is a theoretical solution!" is so much easier.
I don't even know why you are bringing up micro, guess you have to prove terran is having it harder in some ways.
Because as said above difficulty of execution matters, but naturally you know all about this from your ladder experience as a Terran - no, my bad, you probably opt for the 100% winrate with mass Ravens, daily wondering why all those dumb Terran pros barely play mech 10% of the time in TvZ. 
Both side melts just as quickly when one messes up.
Lol. Yeah, those 500 hit point units with 6 armor supported by a spammable 150 hps heal die as easily as 45/105 hit point infantry facing a triple AoE combo. Priceless statement.
I guess games don't go long enough for ravens to counter the broodlords too.
Indeed, that's generally what happens. That's the difference between a unit that needs 74 seconds to hatch from an infrastructure which can be prepared in advance and a unit that, with Corvid Reactor ready, requires 225 seconds to be full energy (270 for the first round without Cordid Reactor) after a 60 seconds production time, after you added extra infrastructure that takes 75 seconds to be ready.
On November 03 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it.
Nooooooooo, those production boosts should disappear (or be weaker) to begin with.
On November 03 2014 23:32 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 22:46 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 22:04 ETisME wrote:
ummm.....it's not "my" race, I play random. Zerg was my starting race. What an argument... Everyone should do the same each time they're accused of "bias" - I'm no longer X! I switched to random, I am Objectivity personified! Actually, I think it's quite reasonable to say that random players are less biased than players who main one race. Especially those who go very far out of their way to write TL articles about how their race doesn't even exist in the game anymore. You can find statistics to justify anything you want by including and excluding certain results [the irony!!] but for me what speaks the loudest is that if you look at the bracket stages of every recent tournament, Zerg is clearly lagging. TvZ set win rate: IEM Toronto 2-0 Dreamhack Moscow 2-0 Dreamhack Stockholm 0-3 GSL Code S 3-0 WCS EU 1-1 WCS AM 2-0 WCS Global Finals + Show Spoiler +That's a combined + Show Spoiler + in series played between the best Terrans and the best Zergs since the patch. Note that soO, the best Zerg in the world, accounts for half of those wins. The other half is Koreans beating foreigners.
You calling me out for writing Welcome to ZParcraft II has to be one of the most hilarious things ever. I don't even want to imagine the content of your posts if Protoss had lost 15 Premier in a row, had 40% of the number of mirrors of the other races or if it was outperformed by several teams in terms of Code S representation. I have to confess the suspect caution you showed towards the TvP parts compared with how impassioned you were by the TvZ mass banes demonstration was truly a sight to behold.
The 3 last Korean qualifiers have dead even TvZ winrates? No one cares; very strange considering the cult of blind winrates around here. The data is probably corrupted by Code B scrubs; too bad many of them are much better than a Golden or a Jaedong.
Zerg won the last two Premier Tournaments, including a ZvZ final? No one cares.
Zerg is the most represented race at pro level? No one cares.
Rogue beat tons of top Terran players recently - Bogus, Flash, Maru, GuMiho? No one cares. Why bother to look at what he does right when you can triumphantly exhibit a Jaedong going 65 drones against a build that can max by 12'50...
So fine, fine, go ahead; you know how to proceed by now. Lay siege to David Kim. Bio too efficient. Bio too versatile. Nerf nerf nerf nerf. You know the chorus. We've been through this before. Third time will be the charm for sure.
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On November 04 2014 00:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2014 00:11 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 23:33 Thezzy wrote:On November 03 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it. Terran could get one in the form of the Tech Reactor, combining Tech Labs and Reactors into one and giving both the ability to quickly upgrade into them. This would make for a nice lategame upgrade at the Engineering Bay requiring both an Armory and a Fusion Core. I don't understand why Terran needs an additional upgrade or improvement to production when it can already be achieved by adding production facilities. The reactor already makes the Terran production facilities the most resource efficient improvement to production of primary units, which doesn't create an opportunity cost situation once invested in. Although I think combining addons into the tech/reactor is silly, I would just like to point out that the Reactor takes almost as long to build as a barracks and requires a production facility to be turned off for the duration. Without proper lift off micro, it would take almost 2 minutes to make a reactored barracks, something very common during mid/late game situations when Terran starts having to drop down raxes for mass marines. I can promise you that if gateways cost 200/50 and took 110 seconds to construct that there would be a bloody uproar. I'm not saying that Reactors are ludicrously expensive or anything of the kind--I'm saying its one of the smoothest and best improvements from Broodwar in the game. I wish that instead of a "tech lab" that there were 2-3 different non-reactor addons for different units that way each unit could be buffed more appropriately because of decreased accessibility creating an increased sense of specialization to them. But that's just me being greedy I think.
Yeah, I agree on all your points. I am aware that it takes a long time to build a reactored barracks. That's why I said that it was resource efficient, and not straight up efficient. It's definitely not efficient in terms of production time lost while building the actual building with addon. But if you consider it being a 50/50 cost to double the production, it is quite cheap in terms of resources. It might be close to redundant in terms of marines, but when you think about Medivacs and Vikings, then it's quite cheap (but maybe not time-efficient).
Also, issues with having large production gaps due to putting down 3-5 barracks at one time can be solved by smoothing out the adding of production facilities. This is also true for Protoss.
I think there is already a nice and simple dynamic, which is why I'm reluctant to make addons more complex. You have the big tech buildings of Zerg and Protoss, and for Terran, it's production facility specific, so it's easier to snipe, but sniping doesn't affect the whole infrastructure. To be honest, it seems like Terran just felt like a really complete race from WoL, it seems very difficult to change it in a way that wouldn't spiral out of control.
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I never understanded the problem with terran remax being shit, I think thats actually fine, the production works ok, probably the best of all the races, the production is well defined without being too weak or too strong, wich is what terran is at its best a race that is strong because is well balanced instead of being too weak on somethings and too strong in others.
As for mech production is fine too,as others have pointed is biggest weakness is that it lacks versatility, I've always tought that hellions/hellbats/banshees are the units that should be looked, while tanks/thors/vikings are the core of mech I think they're in an ok state they serve their purpose well, buffing the tank is always a big problem because it can be either too strong or not strong enough. Now the more mobile parts of mech can actually be used to cover the holes where mech is the weakest. The heavy hellbat/medivac style of mech in TvT showcases this very well, is a more mobile version of mech that uses the strenght of all its unit, is agressive and fast pased and rewards good control wich is much better than a defensive style of mech to both play, play against and watch.
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On November 04 2014 00:55 Lexender wrote:
I never understanded the problem with terran remax being shit, I think thats actually fine, the production works ok, probably the best of all the races, the production is well defined without being too weak or too strong, wich is what terran is at its best a race that is strong because is well balanced instead of being too weak on somethings and too strong in others.
Yeah, Terran's production is fine. Tech Reactors are the kind of nonsense SC2 typically doesn't need.
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On November 04 2014 00:37 TheDwf wrote:You calling me out for writing Welcome to ZParcraft II has to be one of the most hilarious things ever. I don't even want to imagine the content of your posts if Protoss had lost 15 Premier in a row, had 40% of the number of mirrors of the other races or if it was outperformed by several teams in terms of Code S representation. I have to confess the suspect caution you showed towards the TvP parts compared with how impassioned you were by the TvZ mass banes demonstration was truly a sight to behold. The 3 last Korean qualifiers have dead even TvZ winrates? No one cares; very strange considering the cult of blind winrates around here. The data is probably corrupted by Code B scrubs; too bad many of them are much better than a Golden or a Jaedong. Zerg won the last two Premier Tournaments, including a ZvZ final? No one cares. Zerg is the most represented race at pro level? No one cares. Rogue beat tons of top Terran players recently - Bogus, Flash, Maru, GuMiho? No one cares. Why bother to look at what he does right when you can triumphantly exhibit a Jaedong going 65 drones against a build that can max by 12'50... So fine, fine, go ahead; you know how to proceed by now. Lay siege to David Kim. Bio too efficient. Bio too versatile. Nerf nerf nerf nerf. You know the chorus. We've been through this before. Third time will be the charm for sure.
You are so ridiculous. I made two points and you've managed to skew both completely and respond in your typical, annoyingly extravagant fashion.
1) The guy plays random. He is less biased than you. This isn't about me or my bias (I have a Protos bias, because I play Protoss). The discussion is about TvZ anyway so I have no idea why my Protoss bias is even relevant. But rather than addressing this you dedicated a whole paragraph to trying to justify your bias by citing my bias.
2) My point is valid. Anyone can pick and choose data to suit them. Including Korean qualifiers is a choice. Not including them is also a choice. There are reasons why I picked the data set that I did. Bracket stages typically involve a bit more planning for your particular opponent than group stages. They also tend to feature more consistent gameplay and less flukey 1-off cheeses winning series. So in my view, the bracket stages of these tournaments are a better representation of skill and strategic planning. And in these series, Terran is winning by a very wide margin. Note that, unlike you, my bias doesn't prevent me from being rational about this. I have no horse in this race. I play Protoss.
Finally, I'm tired of you justifying every single Zerg loss with your strategic analysis. Snute made too many drones. Jaedong made too many drones. soO engaged off creep. Blah blah. Shit, you seem to know so much about Zerg strategy you should probably be playing Zerg and competing in GSL yourself! Show that soO scrub how it's done.
Oh, and this gem right here:
Zerg won the last two Premier Tournaments, including a ZvZ final? No one cares.
Zerg is the most represented race at pro level? No one cares.
Rogue beat tons of top Terran players recently - Bogus, Flash, Maru, GuMiho? No one cares. Why bother to look at what he does right when you can triumphantly exhibit a Jaedong going 65 drones against a build that can max by 12'50...
This is the exact kind of cherry picked bullshit that you argue against in this forum all the time.
You have access to liquipedia, and you can count, presumably. Why don't you take a look at premier tournament winners since the patch and tell me if you don't think that favors one race in particular?
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On November 04 2014 00:28 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 22:07 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 03 2014 21:45 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Funny how some terrans were whining so hard when it was 'ZPcraft'.
And when terran wins everything it's all fine and shit.
Bias much?
It's pretty clear that Zerg is underperforming since HoTS release, Zerg won 2 out of 22 WCS events.
Zerg players just worse and make more mistakes? Doubt it.
It irks me to no end when people say Zerg has been underperforming in HOTS. No it hasn't. It's been strangely performing. 2013 s1 had 4 Zergs in ro8. s3 had equal ro32 distribution, 2 Zergs in ro4 and a Zerg in the finals. 2014 s1 had 16 P, 13 Z, and 3 T in ro32, and 2 Z in ro4. s2 had 14 P, 14 Z, and 4 T in ro32 and 2 Z in ro4. s3 had 16 P, 9 Z, and 7 T in ro32 and 3 Z in ro8. Every single Code S final in HOTS has had a Zerg in it (with possible exception of OSL). Zerg produced the single most consistent Code S player of HOTS. Zest might be the most consistent player of 2014, but soO was already a Code S finalist before non-Proleague viewers even knew who Zest was. Zerg foreigners have been by far the most successful in HOTS, with Snute and Scarlett having the best claims to best foreigner. If you think that's underperforming, you don't understand what it was like to be a Terran in 2014. You can cite regions other than KR, you can cite number of first place finishes to seconds, you can cite the number of household name Zergs, or the number of Zerg Blizzcon attendees, and those might all be valid points... so make them. Don't generalize. haha. I am moved to tears. sitting on that throne for so long and for the longest time and then having to deal with a few hiccups really must have hurt terran's egos.
I find it pretty funny that of all the things I said that you could have chosen to respond to to have a meaningful and constructive discussion about Zerg performance in competitive play, you choose to QQ about a statement about TvP.
But hey, if you want to keep punishing Terrans for 1-1-1 four years ago, that's cool. I guess any imbalance you perceive against Zerg is fine too because we're punishing them for BL/Infestor.
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On November 04 2014 01:20 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 00:28 Doublemint wrote:On November 03 2014 22:07 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 03 2014 21:45 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Funny how some terrans were whining so hard when it was 'ZPcraft'.
And when terran wins everything it's all fine and shit.
Bias much?
It's pretty clear that Zerg is underperforming since HoTS release, Zerg won 2 out of 22 WCS events.
Zerg players just worse and make more mistakes? Doubt it.
It irks me to no end when people say Zerg has been underperforming in HOTS. No it hasn't. It's been strangely performing. 2013 s1 had 4 Zergs in ro8. s3 had equal ro32 distribution, 2 Zergs in ro4 and a Zerg in the finals. 2014 s1 had 16 P, 13 Z, and 3 T in ro32, and 2 Z in ro4. s2 had 14 P, 14 Z, and 4 T in ro32 and 2 Z in ro4. s3 had 16 P, 9 Z, and 7 T in ro32 and 3 Z in ro8. Every single Code S final in HOTS has had a Zerg in it (with possible exception of OSL). Zerg produced the single most consistent Code S player of HOTS. Zest might be the most consistent player of 2014, but soO was already a Code S finalist before non-Proleague viewers even knew who Zest was. Zerg foreigners have been by far the most successful in HOTS, with Snute and Scarlett having the best claims to best foreigner. If you think that's underperforming, you don't understand what it was like to be a Terran in 2014. You can cite regions other than KR, you can cite number of first place finishes to seconds, you can cite the number of household name Zergs, or the number of Zerg Blizzcon attendees, and those might all be valid points... so make them. Don't generalize. haha. I am moved to tears. sitting on that throne for so long and for the longest time and then having to deal with a few hiccups really must have hurt terran's egos. I find it pretty funny that of all the things I said that you could have chosen to respond to to have a meaningful and constructive discussion about Zerg performance in competitive play, you choose to QQ about a statement about TvP. But hey, if you want to keep punishing Terrans for 1-1-1 four years ago, that's cool. I guess any imbalance you perceive against Zerg is fine too because we're punishing them for BL/Infestor.
What can you do, the 2011 trauma is too deeply anchored.
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Back to the amazing choice of words by thedwf
I wonder who is the one started theorycrafting situations with soo and his imaginaries broodlord free wins
Those 500hp 6 armor surely are so powerful as they get kited by 20+ marauders backed with medivac.
They sure can kill units when getting stucked with their shit pathing and infestors are lagging behind.
Oops I forgot it only takes 55 seconds to make ultras and how much longer it takes to make marauders.
Oh wait, terran already is going MMMWM ball right since mid game. Sure it's hard to spam mmmvm ball
Mind blowing logic.
Oh oops, I forgot ravens need to be full energy to have any use at all :p
For a broodlord to morph in safe distance and fly over to actually engage, I worder if that's enough time for 6 ravens+ to gather enough energy for 6 HsM given how big the maps are.
Hmm
Or pdds with viking support. Hmm
Also for your reference, nerchio and goody have both mentioned how strong sky raven mech is, goody especially mentioned why some loses is only because they don't add bcs.
I didnt even say 100% win rate mass raven, and I didnt talk of dailies. I would suggest you to actually read what is written and not making all the assumptions in the world.
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On November 04 2014 01:24 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 01:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 04 2014 00:28 Doublemint wrote:On November 03 2014 22:07 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 03 2014 21:45 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Funny how some terrans were whining so hard when it was 'ZPcraft'.
And when terran wins everything it's all fine and shit.
Bias much?
It's pretty clear that Zerg is underperforming since HoTS release, Zerg won 2 out of 22 WCS events.
Zerg players just worse and make more mistakes? Doubt it.
It irks me to no end when people say Zerg has been underperforming in HOTS. No it hasn't. It's been strangely performing. 2013 s1 had 4 Zergs in ro8. s3 had equal ro32 distribution, 2 Zergs in ro4 and a Zerg in the finals. 2014 s1 had 16 P, 13 Z, and 3 T in ro32, and 2 Z in ro4. s2 had 14 P, 14 Z, and 4 T in ro32 and 2 Z in ro4. s3 had 16 P, 9 Z, and 7 T in ro32 and 3 Z in ro8. Every single Code S final in HOTS has had a Zerg in it (with possible exception of OSL). Zerg produced the single most consistent Code S player of HOTS. Zest might be the most consistent player of 2014, but soO was already a Code S finalist before non-Proleague viewers even knew who Zest was. Zerg foreigners have been by far the most successful in HOTS, with Snute and Scarlett having the best claims to best foreigner. If you think that's underperforming, you don't understand what it was like to be a Terran in 2014. You can cite regions other than KR, you can cite number of first place finishes to seconds, you can cite the number of household name Zergs, or the number of Zerg Blizzcon attendees, and those might all be valid points... so make them. Don't generalize. haha. I am moved to tears. sitting on that throne for so long and for the longest time and then having to deal with a few hiccups really must have hurt terran's egos. I find it pretty funny that of all the things I said that you could have chosen to respond to to have a meaningful and constructive discussion about Zerg performance in competitive play, you choose to QQ about a statement about TvP. But hey, if you want to keep punishing Terrans for 1-1-1 four years ago, that's cool. I guess any imbalance you perceive against Zerg is fine too because we're punishing them for BL/Infestor. What can you do, the 2011 trauma is too deeply anchored.
And the entitlement strong with some others.
On November 04 2014 01:26 ETisME wrote:Back to the amazing choice of words by thedwf I wonder who is the one started theorycrafting situations with soo and his imaginaries broodlord free wins Those 500hp 6 armor surely are so powerful as they get kited by 20+ marauders backed with medivac. They sure can kill units when getting stucked with their shit pathing and infestors are lagging behind. Oops I forgot it only takes 55 seconds to make ultras and how much longer it takes to make marauders. Oh wait, terran already is going MMMWM ball right since mid game. Sure it's hard to spam mmmvm ball Mind blowing logic. Oh oops, I forgot ravens need to be full energy to have any use at all :p For a broodlord to morph in safe distance and fly over to actually engage, I worder if that's enough time for 6 ravens+ to gather enough energy for 6 HsM given how big the maps are. Hmm Or pdds with viking support. Hmm Also for your reference, nerchio and goody have both mentioned how strong sky raven mech is, goody especially mentioned why some loses is only because they don't add bcs. I didnt even say 100% win rate mass raven, and I didnt talk of dailies. I would suggest you to actually read what is written and not making all the assumptions in the world.
Yup. I love how people now realize that Terran T3 is not as strong for a reason, and that's because Terran bio is ridiculously good in _every_ situation.
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1) The guy plays random. He is less biased than you.
You cant possible know this so please dont use this as absolute.
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EPT
