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as if the hive army can just pop out.
if you so enjoy using stupid terms like "unbeatable", at least use it properly, it is way easier to beat than the raven heavy composition.
the "scan" and "vast amount of time" gives more than enough for taeja to get enough vikings or even ravens to deal with the eventual broodlord switch.
his scan was a proof that you can totally prepare for an "unbeatable" hive army.
I wonder why those inferior zerg isn't winning against the likes of taeja and isn't in the GSL final for 4 times.
The huge maps with speedmedivacs and lack of mutas, I don't see how a broodlord switch would win him games.
Zergs have been op-ed out from broodlords for a damn good reason, good job on digging into vods to find the few successful one though, it's a shame you have to go all the way back to 2013 and none of them are having soo and taeja level of success and consistency.
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On November 03 2014 21:28 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:24 Big J wrote:
Could you please get rid of the outdated games and then repost the examples that are actually worth looking into? I'm not going to do the archive work for you when you want to proof a point to me. Could you please indicate why those games are "outdated" when the concept I want to illustrate is a brood transition after an ultra tech after a lings/banes/mutas midgame against 4M play? 
Because literally the first game you posted is an example of a Zerg going straight Broodlords (no Ultralisks first) and the gamesituation is completely different. Like, Taeja is at 5bases up to take a 6th base between 25to30mins. Bomber in that game loses his 4th base at 23mins and retakes one. How is Bomber anywhere close in such a good spot that Taeja was in?
And in general, it is a game from WCS S1 2013... That's not the same metagame and balance.
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On November 03 2014 21:34 ETisME wrote:
as if the hive army can just pop out.
if you so enjoy using stupid terms like "unbeatable", at least use it properly, it is way easier to beat than the raven heavy composition.
the "scan" and "vast amount of time" gives more than enough for taeja to get enough vikings or even ravens to deal with the eventual broodlord switch.
his scan was a proof that you can totally prepare for an "unbeatable" hive army.
I wonder why those inferior zerg isn't winning against the likes of taeja and isn't in the GSL final for 4 times.
The huge maps with speedmedivacs and lack of mutas, I don't see how a broodlord switch would win him games.
Zergs have been op-ed out from broodlords for a damn good reason, good job on digging into vods to find the few successful one though, it's a shame you have to go all the way back to 2013 and none of them are having soo and taeja level of success and consistency.
Good job on focusing on the one old game when there are other recent examples of Code S level Zerg players illustrating my point. One day I have good hope you'll learn from the top players of your race instead of spilling your ignorance here as usual.
On November 03 2014 21:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:28 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 21:24 Big J wrote:
Could you please get rid of the outdated games and then repost the examples that are actually worth looking into? I'm not going to do the archive work for you when you want to proof a point to me. Could you please indicate why those games are "outdated" when the concept I want to illustrate is a brood transition after an ultra tech after a lings/banes/mutas midgame against 4M play? Because literally the first game you posted is an example of a Zerg going straight Broodlords (no Ultralisks first) and the gamesituation is completely different. Like, Taeja is at 5bases up to take a 6th base between 25to30mins. Bomber in that game loses his 4th base at 23mins and retakes one. How is Bomber anywhere close in such a good spot that Taeja was in? And in general, it is a game from WCS S1 2013... That's not the same metagame and balance.
Sorry, my bad, I thought I had seen ultras before broods in that game. The other ones should be fine.
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Funny how some terrans were whining so hard when it was 'ZPcraft'.
And when terran wins everything it's all fine and shit.
Bias much?
It's pretty clear that Zerg is underperforming since HoTS release, Zerg won 2 out of 22 WCS events.
Zerg players just worse and make more mistakes? Doubt it.
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thedwf's zparcraft2 article got terran buffed into its current state in the first place, him now coming to this thread telling everyone the game is fine is a pretty good indication of terran being a bit too strong atm
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On November 03 2014 21:51 Tsubbi wrote:
thedwf's zparcraft2 article got terran buffed into its current state in the first place, him now coming to this thread telling everyone the game is fine is a pretty good indication of terran being a bit too strong atm
Except I don't remember making a comment here about the state of the game recently, so unfortunately your point fizzles out. Nice try though
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kinda curious why it is that zergs are underperforming on the very top level, right under it they seem to be doing more than okay, with the majority of top foreigners being zerg, snute, scarlett, toodming, vortix etc.
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On November 03 2014 21:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:34 ETisME wrote:
as if the hive army can just pop out.
if you so enjoy using stupid terms like "unbeatable", at least use it properly, it is way easier to beat than the raven heavy composition.
the "scan" and "vast amount of time" gives more than enough for taeja to get enough vikings or even ravens to deal with the eventual broodlord switch.
his scan was a proof that you can totally prepare for an "unbeatable" hive army.
I wonder why those inferior zerg isn't winning against the likes of taeja and isn't in the GSL final for 4 times.
The huge maps with speedmedivacs and lack of mutas, I don't see how a broodlord switch would win him games.
Zergs have been op-ed out from broodlords for a damn good reason, good job on digging into vods to find the few successful one though, it's a shame you have to go all the way back to 2013 and none of them are having soo and taeja level of success and consistency. Good job on focusing on the one old game when there are other recent examples of Code S level Zerg players illustrating my point. One day I have good hope you'll learn from the top players of your race instead of spilling your ignorance here as usual. Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:35 Big J wrote:On November 03 2014 21:28 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 21:24 Big J wrote:
Could you please get rid of the outdated games and then repost the examples that are actually worth looking into? I'm not going to do the archive work for you when you want to proof a point to me. Could you please indicate why those games are "outdated" when the concept I want to illustrate is a brood transition after an ultra tech after a lings/banes/mutas midgame against 4M play? Because literally the first game you posted is an example of a Zerg going straight Broodlords (no Ultralisks first) and the gamesituation is completely different. Like, Taeja is at 5bases up to take a 6th base between 25to30mins. Bomber in that game loses his 4th base at 23mins and retakes one. How is Bomber anywhere close in such a good spot that Taeja was in? And in general, it is a game from WCS S1 2013... That's not the same metagame and balance. Sorry, my bad, I thought I had seen ultras before broods in that game. The other ones should be fine.
ummm.....it's not "my" race, I play random. Zerg was my starting race.
Code S level? Please, if Code S has taught me anything, it is to try to win the game with muta ling baneling ultra and definitely not by "unbeatable hive army"
If it was so unbeatable, why would Taeja even scan at all the spire? could it be that you can actually prepare for a late game hive army?
Please help me with my "ignorance". Was he scanning to check if it is time to type gg?
Also you ask me to learn from the top players and yet you just called the players you gave off as inferior players compared to Soo, isn't that pretty contradicting, considering the bests aren't using broodlords at all? (yes, not just soo, where are the zerg who are using the unbeatable hive army to win all the ZvT late games in code S level?)
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If Zerg is underperforming (can't really make a solid statement on this as I don't have any stats with me) I'd rather see Zerg buffed rather than nerfing Terran again which could also mess up (again) TvP.
The only thing I could agree on that is potentially a little off is that the widow mine's shield damage remained after the radius damage was brought back to full damage.
Against Zerg a full radius damage Widow Mine is required to deal with Banelings.
Otherwise Zerg can just mass Banelings and no amount of Widow Mines would kill enough of them.
This is what I often saw before patch where the Widow Mine got good central hits and only stuff in the middle died.
All the other Banelings/Zerglings stayed alive and swarmed the Bio.
In WoL we had Siege Tanks for that but regenerating Mutalisks and improved creep spread from Zerg players have made this approach far more risky. And ofcourse, there's Blinding Cloud that just nullifies Siege Tanks altogether.
Widow Mines can only fire once in an engagement so unlike Siege Tanks they need to deal full area damage to kill enough Banelings. I do not want to see Zerg massing 50+ Banelings again and Terran not having an answer to it.
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On November 03 2014 21:54 Meavis wrote:
kinda curious why it is that zergs are underperforming on the very top level, right under it they seem to be doing more than okay, with the majority of top foreigners being zerg, snute, scarlett, toodming, vortix etc.
Maybe it's the same problem as always? Terran scales better with skill and terran standard play has become too powerful at the top level. This forces zerg to play more stylistically and take more risks while reducing confidence. This emphasizes their flaws more; and that's why all zerg players seem weak and slumping, and why you can always point out mistakes they made to dismiss any terran wins.
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On November 03 2014 21:45 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Funny how some terrans were whining so hard when it was 'ZPcraft'.
And when terran wins everything it's all fine and shit.
Bias much?
It's pretty clear that Zerg is underperforming since HoTS release, Zerg won 2 out of 22 WCS events.
Zerg players just worse and make more mistakes? Doubt it.
It irks me to no end when people say Zerg has been underperforming in HOTS. No it hasn't. It's been strangely performing.
2013 s1 had 4 Zergs in ro8. s3 had equal ro32 distribution, 2 Zergs in ro4 and a Zerg in the finals. 2014 s1 had 16 P, 13 Z, and 3 T in ro32, and 2 Z in ro4. s2 had 14 P, 14 Z, and 4 T in ro32 and 2 Z in ro4. s3 had 16 P, 9 Z, and 7 T in ro32 and 3 Z in ro8. Every single Code S final in HOTS has had a Zerg in it (with possible exception of OSL). Zerg produced the single most consistent Code S player of HOTS. Zest might be the most consistent player of 2014, but soO was already a Code S finalist before non-Proleague viewers even knew who Zest was. Zerg foreigners have been by far the most successful in HOTS, with Snute and Scarlett having the best claims to best foreigner.
If you think that's underperforming, you don't understand what it was like to be a Terran in 2014. You can cite regions other than KR, you can cite number of first place finishes to seconds, you can cite the number of household name Zergs, or the number of Zerg Blizzcon attendees, and those might all be valid points... so make them. Don't generalize.
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On November 03 2014 21:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:35 Big J wrote:On November 03 2014 21:28 TheDwf wrote:On November 03 2014 21:24 Big J wrote:
Could you please get rid of the outdated games and then repost the examples that are actually worth looking into? I'm not going to do the archive work for you when you want to proof a point to me. Could you please indicate why those games are "outdated" when the concept I want to illustrate is a brood transition after an ultra tech after a lings/banes/mutas midgame against 4M play? Because literally the first game you posted is an example of a Zerg going straight Broodlords (no Ultralisks first) and the gamesituation is completely different. Like, Taeja is at 5bases up to take a 6th base between 25to30mins. Bomber in that game loses his 4th base at 23mins and retakes one. How is Bomber anywhere close in such a good spot that Taeja was in? And in general, it is a game from WCS S1 2013... That's not the same metagame and balance. Sorry, my bad, I thought I had seen ultras before broods in that game. The other ones should be fine.
So, been through a bunch of games. Maybe I missunderstood what you were saying originally, sounded like an allout mass Broodlord transition - "unbeatable Hive army" as you put it.
In those games I have been watching, the story is always a very low amount of Broodlords and the Terran losing the engagments to Fungal/Ultralisk, with 2-4Broodlords trailing behind (sry for low quality):
+ Show Spoiler +
Having a few Broodlords is probably nice, but not the story of those wins I have the screenshots from. The 3rd game I was watching was Mvp vs Scarlett and there Mvp sucides his Vikings thinking there are no Broods coming and when Scarlett starts sieging with her 5 Broodlords he has a single one left. That's probably the most relevant of those games and it works due to a mistake from Mvp. And Scarletts army is again carried by Ultra/Infestor/ling/bling, just like soOs.
So if your point was that you can make a tiny amount of Broodlords with your Ultra/ling/bling/Infestor/Muta army, then I appologize. That is of course viable, just like building 10hydralisks or mainting 10roaches in your composition doesn't kill you and may proof handy - similarily to how a Terran can have a few banshees or tanks or hellbats in his army. It doesn't really change that the way you win engagments is with an Ultra/ling/bling/infestor army just like soO played one. And you surely have numerous examples of a Zerg winning without Broods in your database.
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On November 03 2014 22:07 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:45 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Funny how some terrans were whining so hard when it was 'ZPcraft'.
And when terran wins everything it's all fine and shit.
Bias much?
It's pretty clear that Zerg is underperforming since HoTS release, Zerg won 2 out of 22 WCS events.
Zerg players just worse and make more mistakes? Doubt it.
It irks me to no end when people say Zerg has been underperforming in HOTS. No it hasn't. It's been strangely performing. 2013 s1 had 4 Zergs in ro8. s3 had equal ro32 distribution, 2 Zergs in ro4 and a Zerg in the finals. 2014 s1 had 16 P, 13 Z, and 3 T in ro32, and 2 Z in ro4. s2 had 14 P, 14 Z, and 4 T in ro32 and 2 Z in ro4. s3 had 16 P, 9 Z, and 7 T in ro32 and 3 Z in ro8. Every single Code S final in HOTS has had a Zerg in it (with possible exception of OSL). Zerg produced the single most consistent Code S player of HOTS. Zest might be the most consistent player of 2014, but soO was already a Code S finalist before non-Proleague viewers even knew who Zest was. Zerg foreigners have been by far the most successful in HOTS, with Snute and Scarlett having the best claims to best foreigner. If you think that's underperforming, you don't understand what it was like to be a Terran in 2014. You can cite regions other than KR, you can cite number of first place finishes to seconds, you can cite the number of household name Zergs, or the number of Zerg Blizzcon attendees, and those might all be valid points... so make them. Don't generalize.
Terrans have had 11 premier tournament victories and 10 second places. Zerg have had 7 and 8. Even though terran has had rough times it can hardly be said that terran has been only suffering.
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On November 03 2014 22:04 ETisME wrote:
ummm.....it's not "my" race, I play random. Zerg was my starting race.
What an argument... Everyone should do the same each time they're accused of "bias" - I'm no longer X! I switched to random, I am Objectivity personified!
If it was so unbeatable, why would Taeja even scan at all the spire? could it be that you can actually prepare for a late game hive army?
Please help me with my "ignorance". Was he scanning to check if it is time to type gg?
Yes, you can prepare - minutes ahead, with enough initiative to stall during the time you build your fleet, after which you still have to micro perfectly against the triple AoE combo (banes, ultras, Fungal). In short something hellishly hard which won't succeed the majority of time. Your point? Terran should also leave TvP each time Protoss gets a fourth with 65+ Probes and colo/storm just because they have awful odds in that scenario?
Now for the actual game, please explain how TaeJa defends his proxy fourth, one screen away from the border of the creep, against a brood push with Corruptors being able to morph 5 seconds away from it? The temporary solution is to dodge the deathball, yet your most critical base is literally on Zerg's way - how do you do it?
Also you ask me to learn from the top players and yet you just called the players you gave off as inferior players compared to Soo, isn't that pretty contradicting, considering the bests aren't using broodlords at all? (yes, not just soo, where are the zerg who are using the unbeatable hive army to win all the ZvT late games in code S level?)
There is no contradiction - surely you can understand alone that brood transitions aren't common because 99% of the TvZs are over before there is any need to tech them? Exact same case as Tempests in lategame TvP.
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On November 03 2014 22:31 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 22:07 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 03 2014 21:45 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Funny how some terrans were whining so hard when it was 'ZPcraft'.
And when terran wins everything it's all fine and shit.
Bias much?
It's pretty clear that Zerg is underperforming since HoTS release, Zerg won 2 out of 22 WCS events.
Zerg players just worse and make more mistakes? Doubt it.
It irks me to no end when people say Zerg has been underperforming in HOTS. No it hasn't. It's been strangely performing. 2013 s1 had 4 Zergs in ro8. s3 had equal ro32 distribution, 2 Zergs in ro4 and a Zerg in the finals. 2014 s1 had 16 P, 13 Z, and 3 T in ro32, and 2 Z in ro4. s2 had 14 P, 14 Z, and 4 T in ro32 and 2 Z in ro4. s3 had 16 P, 9 Z, and 7 T in ro32 and 3 Z in ro8. Every single Code S final in HOTS has had a Zerg in it (with possible exception of OSL). Zerg produced the single most consistent Code S player of HOTS. Zest might be the most consistent player of 2014, but soO was already a Code S finalist before non-Proleague viewers even knew who Zest was. Zerg foreigners have been by far the most successful in HOTS, with Snute and Scarlett having the best claims to best foreigner. If you think that's underperforming, you don't understand what it was like to be a Terran in 2014. You can cite regions other than KR, you can cite number of first place finishes to seconds, you can cite the number of household name Zergs, or the number of Zerg Blizzcon attendees, and those might all be valid points... so make them. Don't generalize. Terrans have had 11 premier tournament victories and 10 second places. Zerg have had 7 and 8. Even though terran has had rough times it can hardly be said that terran has been only suffering.
The original post claimed that "Zerg has been underperforming since HOTS release." My only point was that the situation is far from clear-cut. In some criteria, Zerg have outperformed Protoss, who were doing so well that they got multiple nerfs throughout the year. In others, they've looked weaker than even Terran. We're not going to get a productive discussion on this topic so long as we keep generalizing and over-simplifying.
Take your number of Terran premier victories and second places. How many of those come from NA/EU? I think it's hard to argue that the Korean Terrans abroad are a couple of notches above Korean P/Z abroad, and so have an even easier time making it through the foreigner brackets. You're likely to find Taeja in any "top 5 Terrans in the world" list but you're not likely to find MC on a similar Protoss list, despite the fact that they're both Blizzcon attendees. If we only count KR, then those numbers change drastically -- 2 Terran first, 2 Terran second -- 2 Zerg first, 5 Zerg second! Zerg performance is a complex issue.
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On November 03 2014 22:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 22:04 ETisME wrote:
ummm.....it's not "my" race, I play random. Zerg was my starting race. What an argument... Everyone should do the same each time they're accused of "bias" - I'm no longer X! I switched to random, I am Objectivity personified! Show nested quote +If it was so unbeatable, why would Taeja even scan at all the spire? could it be that you can actually prepare for a late game hive army?
Please help me with my "ignorance". Was he scanning to check if it is time to type gg? Yes, you can prepare - minutes ahead, with enough initiative to stall during the time you build your fleet, after which you still have to micro perfectly against the triple AoE combo (banes, ultras, Fungal). In short something hellishly hard which won't succeed the majority of time. Your point? Terran should also leave TvP each time Protoss gets a fourth with 65+ Probes and colo/storm just because they have awful odds in that scenario? Now for the actual game, please explain how TaeJa defends his proxy fourth, one screen away from the border of the creep, against a brood push with Corruptors being able to morph 5 seconds away from it? The temporary solution is to dodge the deathball, yet your most critical base is literally on Zerg's way - how do you do it? Show nested quote +Also you ask me to learn from the top players and yet you just called the players you gave off as inferior players compared to Soo, isn't that pretty contradicting, considering the bests aren't using broodlords at all? (yes, not just soo, where are the zerg who are using the unbeatable hive army to win all the ZvT late games in code S level?) There is no contradiction - surely you can understand alone that brood transitions aren't common because 99% of the TvZs are over before there is any need to tech them? Exact same case as Tempests in lategame TvP.
umm You claimed zerg is my race, I merely denied that.
Hell, I switched to Terran since WoL. I even wrote a blog about it. I didn't just "I'm no longer X"
Whatever rolls with you I guess.
You are basically pointing out how to deal with the so called unbeatable deathball. so I guess it isn't unbeatable then because it just needs preparation, just like almost every other strategy?
I don't even know why you are bringing up micro, guess you have to prove terran is having it harder in some ways.
Both side melts just as quickly when one messes up.
Please, this argument about how Taeja should defend his proxy fourth is like asking:
how does soo defend a counter push from taeja after an unfavorable engagement and not enough banelings?
It doesn't suddenly make broodlords OP.
Imagine Soo took an unfavorable fight and loses a base to counter push and not enough gas to make banelings later on.
What is he going to do when his mining bases are taken down to counter push?
umm......the argument about the game just don't get there aren't even relevant.
I guess games don't go long enough for ravens to counter the broodlords too.
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On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it.
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On November 03 2014 22:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 22:04 ETisME wrote:
ummm.....it's not "my" race, I play random. Zerg was my starting race. What an argument... Everyone should do the same each time they're accused of "bias" - I'm no longer X! I switched to random, I am Objectivity personified!
Actually, I think it's quite reasonable to say that random players are less biased than players who main one race. Especially those who go very far out of their way to write TL articles about how their race doesn't even exist in the game anymore.
You can find statistics to justify anything you want by including and excluding certain results but for me what speaks the loudest is that if you look at the bracket stages of every recent tournament, Zerg is clearly lagging.
TvZ set win rate:
IEM Toronto 2-0
Dreamhack Moscow 2-0
Dreamhack Stockholm 0-3
GSL Code S 3-0
WCS EU 1-1
WCS AM 2-0
WCS Global Finals + Show Spoiler +
That's a combined + Show Spoiler + in series played between the best Terrans and the best Zergs since the patch.
Note that soO, the best Zerg in the world, accounts for half of those wins. The other half is Koreans beating foreigners.
If you want to exclude foreigners it looks like this:
IEM Toronto 1-0
Dreamhack Moscow 1-0
Dreamhack Stockholm 0-2
GSL Code S 3-0
WCS EU 1-0
WCS AM 1-0
WCS Global Finals + Show Spoiler +
With a final score of + Show Spoiler +
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On November 03 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it.
Terran could get one in the form of the Tech Reactor, combining Tech Labs and Reactors into one and giving both the ability to quickly upgrade into them.
This would make for a nice lategame upgrade at the Engineering Bay requiring both an Armory and a Fusion Core.
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On November 03 2014 23:33 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 23:22 Grumbels wrote:
On a lighter, LotV related note: shouldn't terran get a production boost macro mechanic for replenishing army in maxed situations? Both zerg and protoss have one (larva, warpgate, chrono) and LotV is the last chance to address it. Terran could get one in the form of the Tech Reactor, combining Tech Labs and Reactors into one and giving both the ability to quickly upgrade into them. This would make for a nice lategame upgrade at the Engineering Bay requiring both an Armory and a Fusion Core.
Double Marauder production would be absolutely stupid TvP. Also the fusion core requirement lore wise is a bit wonky and just isn't intuitive. I'd have to disagree with you here...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fHaYSys.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uLXHq4k.jpg)
