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On October 23 2014 08:56 mishimaBeef wrote:
Here's something I find interesting. If I recall, Blizzard has often cited "tension" as an interesting factor in gameplay. Hence, there is typically a downside to doing something and thus the "tension" that you must struggle through with your opponent. For example, they want Terran to really think about how they use their Orbital energy.
But I ask, what is the downside of using photon overcharge? Does it slow down chrono energy replenishment? Does it slow down production at that nexus? Seems to me the only downside is the need to make a mothership core, and the energy on the mothership core (which would otherwise be used, defensively, for time warp). I'm just wondering whether there is enough tension in the photon overcharge. Seems to me the only downside is not having a time warp incase of a lazy boy push with scvs.
What is the downside of using EMP? You need to make ghosts.
What is the downside of fungal? You need to make infestors.
So yeah, the downside of photon overcharge.... you need to make a MSC and have enough energy.
We can discuss the problems of too much early game defense - I do personally dislike that for all three races atm - but let's please not start with silly semantics.
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Recall is only useful when you're out on the map
Photon overcharge is only useful when you hide
It's actual the best tension.
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Northern Ireland26473 Posts
Returning to it I do think the range is too extreme, it should at the very least be less than that of Siege Tanks
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On October 23 2014 10:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Returning to it I do think the range is too extreme, it should at the very least be less than that of Siege Tanks
I don't think anyone is really against that. It has the range it has to "fix" puma's 111
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On October 23 2014 09:53 antiRW wrote:
What is the downside of using EMP? You need to make ghosts.
What is the downside of fungal? You need to make infestors.
So yeah, the downside of photon overcharge.... you need to make a MSC and have enough energy.
Your comparison is a pretty wide stretch.
Ghost, infestors and templars all cost substantial time and resources to obtain. Choosing to pursue that tech path is a concious decision that must be made with imperfect information and which will have a large bearing on the outcome of the game.
The mothership core is so strong that no tradeoff exists, it is just another step in the build order. Barring joke non-competitive builds, the mothership core provides benefits that always outweigh its cost.
Your comment is like saying that upgrading your first command center to an orbital is at tradeoff. Mathematically upgrading to an orbital will always provide more resources than it costs. There is no tradeoff there.
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On October 23 2014 08:56 mishimaBeef wrote:
Here's something I find interesting. If I recall, Blizzard has often cited "tension" as an interesting factor in gameplay. Hence, there is typically a downside to doing something and thus the "tension" that you must struggle through with your opponent. For example, they want Terran to really think about how they use their Orbital energy.
But I ask, what is the downside of using photon overcharge? Does it slow down chrono energy replenishment? Does it slow down production at that nexus? Seems to me the only downside is the need to make a mothership core, and the energy on the mothership core (which would otherwise be used, defensively, for time warp). I'm just wondering whether there is enough tension in the photon overcharge. Seems to me the only downside is not having a time warp incase of a lazy boy push with scvs.
In the early game one sometimes has to choose between scouting with the MSC/applying pressure with the MSC or keeping it at home to be able to cast the overcharge. The tension is in the requirement for the location of the MSC.
In case of multiple drops one has to choose where to cast it.
I don't think it lacks tension at all. When watching games, it's often the case that we see choices made regarding the MSC usage.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2014 11:04 10bulgares wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 08:56 mishimaBeef wrote:
Here's something I find interesting. If I recall, Blizzard has often cited "tension" as an interesting factor in gameplay. Hence, there is typically a downside to doing something and thus the "tension" that you must struggle through with your opponent. For example, they want Terran to really think about how they use their Orbital energy.
But I ask, what is the downside of using photon overcharge? Does it slow down chrono energy replenishment? Does it slow down production at that nexus? Seems to me the only downside is the need to make a mothership core, and the energy on the mothership core (which would otherwise be used, defensively, for time warp). I'm just wondering whether there is enough tension in the photon overcharge. Seems to me the only downside is not having a time warp incase of a lazy boy push with scvs. In the early game one sometimes has to choose between scouting with the MSC/applying pressure with the MSC or keeping it at home to be able to cast the overcharge. The tension is in the requirement for the location of the MSC. In case of multiple drops one has to choose where to cast it. I don't think it lacks tension at all. When watching games, it's often the case that we see choices made regarding the MSC usage.
"In the early game one sometimes has to choose between scouting with the MSC/applying pressure with the MSC or keeping it at home to be able to cast the overcharge."
Lol. you call that tension... you don't have to attack with it at all. most people scout with stalkers/probes.. moving out is just abusing the unit.. its not tension. ><
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Northern Ireland26473 Posts
As I've said before, it could have been so much more interesting, indeed it additional abilities in Beta which created additional tradeoffs. Assuming these abilities aren't broken, could have made for interesting strategic and stylistic divergence. It had the ability to fill energy for example when it was tethered to the Nexus. Still had overcharge but I think a small energy cost to transfer so you couldn't just PO all your nexus. For sake of argument let's say it also had the ability to recharge Nexus energy for chrono.
Regardless, by having other abilities you naturally create these tradeoffs.
1. You play blind and pool energy in case you're attacked.
2. You use the recharge ability to fill a few sentries, giving you force fields and sufficient energy for diligent Phoenix scouting.
3. You use it as a macro aid, enabling you to chrono more. A Creator might hardcore use this for his upgrades, MC might use it to lower cool down on his Warp Gates.
4. You want to play a tempo style so pool your energy for recalling.
Everyone will still build a Mothership Core, but the scope for using it in different and strategic ways is enhanced. Trade offs are introduced that way, in the way that OC has a mule vs scan dynamic.
I don't believe myself to be any kind of sage, and as a disclaimer I'm just assuming that none of the Wombat MSC's abilities are broken.
With that assumption in mind I defy anyone to argue that the Wombat MSC is inferior to the current iteration in the options and strategy that it would enable.
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I like how suddenly people are complaining about the MSC again,
because protoss really is OP amirite?
Please man, look at aligulac balance wise protoss is the weakest race.
Msc is the ONLY thing that allows protoss to quickly expand like the other races do. At the stage it gets out its ussually VERY expensive and needed versus allins(100/100). You delay tech and units for an msc.
Photon overcharge is nothing but a really high health stalker, since they essentially do the same damage but the nexus health is allot higher. Also baiting photon overcharge is something any T should do if he has problems with an MSC whilst cheesing or 1 basing. Its 101 logic. added to that it actually has a timer wich isnt terribly long. It allows the protoss to get just enough units out versus early pushes like rine/hellion(or mine).
The reall problem lies in the boosts if you ask me. How are you supposed to defend with about 3 stalkers at the time the first medivac with boost flies in. And im not even talking about widow mine dropping.
People complaining protoss is OP because they cast more 'spells' then the other races eventho its a highly technological race so all the casters cost ALLOT of gas. People cant see risk reward and claim protoss is amoving and OP whilst in reality protoss is amoving casting a whole bunch of spells on the exact right locations(otherwise we lose) because literally all our early game units are allot more expensive then the other races and then we require splits and pure dedicated micro early game because otherwise we would not have enough to deflect any early pressure.
Even a 2rax easily could shut down an Mcore opening if it doesnt have full energy when pushing by sniping it.
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On October 23 2014 10:52 691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 09:53 antiRW wrote:
What is the downside of using EMP? You need to make ghosts.
What is the downside of fungal? You need to make infestors.
So yeah, the downside of photon overcharge.... you need to make a MSC and have enough energy. Your comparison is a pretty wide stretch. Ghost, infestors and templars all cost substantial time and resources to obtain. Choosing to pursue that tech path is a concious decision that must be made with imperfect information and which will have a large bearing on the outcome of the game. The mothership core is so strong that no tradeoff exists, it is just another step in the build order. Barring joke non-competitive builds, the mothership core provides benefits that always outweigh its cost. Your comment is like saying that upgrading your first command center to an orbital is at tradeoff. Mathematically upgrading to an orbital will always provide more resources than it costs. There is no tradeoff there.
As is building an SCV or probe. It will always provide more resources that it costs. That is really not a useful metric. The MSC costs a small amount of economy early on and then provides a vital role in balancing toss against the other two races.
Compare with upgrades: They cost money and then they have a long-term benefit. Or queens: There is little downside to building queens early on other than a small economic cost and they are useful in a number of defensive, offensive and support roles.
As others have said, the tension with the MSC is: Where do you keep it and which spell do you cast. Yes, it is not the most difficult unit to use and could possibly be more interesting if something like recall could/would be used more offensively in PvT.
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Erazorz, are you serious or are you just trolling?
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still hate stimvacs, they turned TvT into a contest of DROP THE MAIN XDDDD
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I wonder how Ps defended all the time in WoL when they didnt have MC...they must have lost every match...
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On October 23 2014 19:29 FanaticCZ wrote:
I wonder how Ps defended all the time in WoL when they didnt have MC...they must have lost every match...
Nah, we could defend everything with a Gateway Expand into 3Gate-Robo + any variation required to hold of a 1-1-1 if scouted. As mentioned earlier, MsC were one of the elements, along with the phoenix buffs, to have Protoss keep up with the HotS tempo buffs given to the mutalisks and medivac.
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On October 23 2014 19:37 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 19:29 FanaticCZ wrote:
I wonder how Ps defended all the time in WoL when they didnt have MC...they must have lost every match... Nah, we could defend everything with a Gateway Expand into 3Gate-Robo + any variation required to hold of a 1-1-1 if scouted. As mentioned earlier, MsC were one of the elements, along with the phoenix buffs, to have Protoss keep up with the HotS tempo buffs given to the mutalisks and medivac.
I don't think that was thw original idea. Way back in the alpha there used to be variations without the MsC that let a nexus put a canon on any building.
I think the idea was to help with stuff like mass roach and possibly allow for open natural bases.
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Overcharge is problematic before medivacs ever pop up... The only really dangerous Terran pressure off 1 base has more to do with Protoss not paying attention or being too fucking greedy.
I'm sorry for being of the school that thinks it's ridiculous you can exactly plan your BO's up to 100 food and 3 bases and complain imbaimba if anything disrupts them. An expansion should be a risk to take. Look at PvP/TvT/ZvZ, those expansions are hard fought and well thought through. TvP/PvZ/ZvP? Everybody takes the 2nd (usually the third too) for granted.
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On October 23 2014 19:41 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2014 19:37 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 19:29 FanaticCZ wrote:
I wonder how Ps defended all the time in WoL when they didnt have MC...they must have lost every match... Nah, we could defend everything with a Gateway Expand into 3Gate-Robo + any variation required to hold of a 1-1-1 if scouted. As mentioned earlier, MsC were one of the elements, along with the phoenix buffs, to have Protoss keep up with the HotS tempo buffs given to the mutalisks and medivac. I don't think that was thw original idea. Way back in the alpha there used to be variations without the MsC that let a nexus put a canon on any building. I think the idea was to help with stuff like mass roach and possibly allow for open natural bases.
I didn't get into the HotS alpha, only beta, so I can't really comment. I don't have complete memory of the MsC, but I do remember some of the iterations in Beta. Even though MsC was different, I still think that they contributed to putting some kind of pressure on tempo plays, whether it was through defensive nexus cannon, or recalling into the opponents base.
I'm not convinced that it was more for mass roaches than for medivacs and mutalisks, as we were already learning to deal with roaches quite well. It certainly had the effect of making it easier though. Open naturals are fine, but it's not like they are especially more open now than they were in WoL. I guess we'll find out more when we get to play on Metalopolis.
On October 23 2014 19:41 SC2Toastie wrote:
Overcharge is problematic before medivacs ever pop up... The only really dangerous Terran pressure off 1 base has more to do with Protoss not paying attention or being too fucking greedy.
I'm sorry for being of the school that thinks it's ridiculous you can exactly plan your BO's up to 100 food and 3 bases and complain imbaimba if anything disrupts them. An expansion should be a risk to take. Look at PvP/TvT/ZvZ, those expansions are hard fought and well thought through. TvP/PvZ/ZvP? Everybody takes the 2nd (usually the third too) for granted.
EDIT: Good point by Sated below.
Yeah, I totally agree that it comes into play at a bad point. It's still a 100 gas investment, and a slight probe delay. If people remember the debate that came up when Zergs were going 3-hatch 6-queens in ZvT, the solution was to just power up on 3CC to a point where the defensive investment becomes negligent. I think the same mentality could work out in TvP. I think a greedy Terran can keep up with a greedy Protoss. And if Protoss starts delaying MsC, this will again open up for early aggression.
But yeah, this goes totally against what we'd like the game to be like though.
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EPT
