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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1164

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Tenks
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3104 Posts
October 22 2014 17:00 GMT
#23261
Stalkers aren't very good in straight up engagements because they pay for that with their extreme mobility
Wat
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-22 17:43:29
October 22 2014 17:42 GMT
#23262
Wait, are we really arguing Stalkers are too bad of a unit? They're some of the most veratile / powerful units in the game, they have a role in all stages of PvZ / PvT and scale exponentially with micro. They're the one unit Protoss has that I can always 100% tell the difference between a great pro and a medioce pro from their use. It was literally like 2-3 months ago that Terran's couldn't stop complaining about them being too strong.

Sure, they're bad in a straight up engagement against Maurader Medivac, but you never want to fight a MMM ball with pure Stalker... it would be like Terran trying to beat Collosi Zealot with pure Marine.
In Somnis Veritas
HellHound
Profile Joined September 2014
Bulgaria5962 Posts
October 22 2014 17:52 GMT
#23263
On October 23 2014 02:42 Pursuit_ wrote:
Wait, are we really arguing Stalkers are too bad of a unit? They're some of the most veratile / powerful units in the game, they have a role in all stages of PvZ / PvT and scale exponentially with micro. They're the one unit Protoss has that I can always 100% tell the difference between a great pro and a medioce pro from their use. It was literally like 2-3 months ago that Terran's couldn't stop complaining about them being too strong.

Sure, they're bad in a straight up engagement against Maurader Medivac, but you never want to fight a MMM ball with pure Stalker... it would be like Terran trying to beat Collosi Zealot with pure Marine.

If you can't win by amoving a unit that unit is bad.
Classic GosoO |sOs| Everyone has to give in, let Life win | Zest Is The Best | Roach Cultist | I recognize the might and wisdom of my Otherworldly overlord | Air vs Air 200/200 SC2 is best SC2 | PRIME has been robbed | Fuck prime go ST | ROACH ROACH ROACH
antiRW
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom117 Posts
October 22 2014 17:57 GMT
#23264
On October 23 2014 02:42 Pursuit_ wrote:
Wait, are we really arguing Stalkers are too bad of a unit? They're some of the most veratile / powerful units in the game, they have a role in all stages of PvZ / PvT and scale exponentially with micro. They're the one unit Protoss has that I can always 100% tell the difference between a great pro and a medioce pro from their use. It was literally like 2-3 months ago that Terran's couldn't stop complaining about them being too strong.

Sure, they're bad in a straight up engagement against Maurader Medivac, but you never want to fight a MMM ball with pure Stalker... it would be like Terran trying to beat Collosi Zealot with pure Marine.


No, only one or two people argue that. But you will find one or two people arguing for just about anything.
Eraz0rZ
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands47 Posts
October 22 2014 18:08 GMT
#23265
The difference between then (blink stalker micro maps) and now (widow mine buff, super Mcore nerf, mappool terrible)
+ the openings terrans are doing are very marauder heavy these days.

Is exacly why stalkers are very bad units in this meta.
Just another PROtoss u knowwaddamean
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
October 22 2014 18:21 GMT
#23266
I just realized pure muta comp can't fight MMM comp, let's buff muta guys!
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
October 22 2014 18:23 GMT
#23267
On October 23 2014 03:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I just realized pure muta comp can't fight MMM comp, let's buff muta guys!

This objectively sounds like a great idea! I can't even remember the last game I saw this unit being built! lol
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
October 22 2014 18:35 GMT
#23268
On October 23 2014 03:23 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2014 03:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I just realized pure muta comp can't fight MMM comp, let's buff muta guys!

This objectively sounds like a great idea! I can't even remember the last game I saw this unit being built! lol


What's the worse that could happen when we buff a unit based on it bein used outside of it's intended design? Blizz should do it!
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-22 20:57:12
October 22 2014 20:54 GMT
#23269
Gateway units are fine. Sure it's aggravating to lose to bio when all you have is gateway units because in that sense, they are utter trash (and that's probably when you'll hear this most said) but not having AoE vs. MMM means that you did SOMETHING wrong along the way and thus deserve to lose anyway.

Basically, gateway units are garbage, but that's not relevant to how the game is played because you should make HT/Colossus.

If they buffed the Stalker, to the point where it could fight MMM head on, there would be no point to making any other unit. You'd just do a Blink "allin" and if it didn't win you'd just keep upgrading and making more Stalkers...... the fact that Stalkers as a main combat unit have a shelf life (until Stim/Medivacs finish, until Hydras finish, until a couple of immortals/Voids are out) is what keeps them from being totally broken. Otherwise they'd be the Warhound.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-22 21:00:30
October 22 2014 20:59 GMT
#23270
On October 23 2014 05:54 DinoMight wrote:
Gateway units are fine. Sure it's aggravating to lose to bio when all you have is gateway units because in that sense, they are utter trash (and that's probably when you'll hear this most said) but not having AoE vs. MMM means that you did SOMETHING wrong along the way and thus deserve to lose anyway.

Basically, gateway units are garbage, but that's not relevant to how the game is played because you should make HT/Colossus.

If they buffed the Stalker, to the point where it could fight MMM head on, there would be no point to making any other unit. You'd just do a Blink "allin" and if it didn't win you'd just keep upgrading and making more Stalkers......


Well, moreso than that I really don't understand why everybody compares MMM to non-Templar Gateway units anyway. Marine Maurader (with stim / CS / Conc shells) vs Chargelot Blink Stalker is pretty even. If you add Medivacs, Terran's Tier 3 support unit, of course the Terran composition is stronger until Protoss also has their Tier 3 units added into the mix.
In Somnis Veritas
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
October 22 2014 21:28 GMT
#23271
On October 23 2014 05:59 Pursuit_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2014 05:54 DinoMight wrote:
Gateway units are fine. Sure it's aggravating to lose to bio when all you have is gateway units because in that sense, they are utter trash (and that's probably when you'll hear this most said) but not having AoE vs. MMM means that you did SOMETHING wrong along the way and thus deserve to lose anyway.

Basically, gateway units are garbage, but that's not relevant to how the game is played because you should make HT/Colossus.

If they buffed the Stalker, to the point where it could fight MMM head on, there would be no point to making any other unit. You'd just do a Blink "allin" and if it didn't win you'd just keep upgrading and making more Stalkers......


Well, moreso than that I really don't understand why everybody compares MMM to non-Templar Gateway units anyway. Marine Maurader (with stim / CS / Conc shells) vs Chargelot Blink Stalker is pretty even. If you add Medivacs, Terran's Tier 3 support unit, of course the Terran composition is stronger until Protoss also has their Tier 3 units added into the mix.

Hm, infrastructure-wise getting to Colossi/HT is 50% more costly than to medivacs. Which is disregarding their crucial researches storm/range, which makes the setup you have to go through 100% costly than to get a reactored starport.

Though I agree with the reasoning, but could we please not try to water things down by making them sound equal in an assymetric game! One side needs medivacs, the other one Colossi. These things are achievable. That's really all there needs to be said. Just me nitpicking :-)
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25245 Posts
October 22 2014 21:36 GMT
#23272
Why does this thread go from interesting discussion to 'stalkers are terrible' in the space of a page, argh!

Most of this stuff is interesting too, but falls way, way too far from the ostensible balance issue/potential balance solution remit of the topic. More the kind of discussion for a 'design' thread, the existence of such during the HoTs beta saw some interesting radical ideas
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
October 22 2014 21:46 GMT
#23273
On October 23 2014 05:59 Pursuit_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2014 05:54 DinoMight wrote:
Gateway units are fine. Sure it's aggravating to lose to bio when all you have is gateway units because in that sense, they are utter trash (and that's probably when you'll hear this most said) but not having AoE vs. MMM means that you did SOMETHING wrong along the way and thus deserve to lose anyway.

Basically, gateway units are garbage, but that's not relevant to how the game is played because you should make HT/Colossus.

If they buffed the Stalker, to the point where it could fight MMM head on, there would be no point to making any other unit. You'd just do a Blink "allin" and if it didn't win you'd just keep upgrading and making more Stalkers......


Well, moreso than that I really don't understand why everybody compares MMM to non-Templar Gateway units anyway. Marine Maurader (with stim / CS / Conc shells) vs Chargelot Blink Stalker is pretty even. If you add Medivacs, Terran's Tier 3 support unit, of course the Terran composition is stronger until Protoss also has their Tier 3 units added into the mix.


Eh, I'm not a fan of tiering systems. The game is asymmetrical and it doesn't really make sense.

Medivacs are much easier to get out in numbers than Colossus, and Terran units lack the "bullseye" factor. Meaning every single Marine/Marauder is just as effective, but the AoE units in the Protoss army will always have a giant "bullseye" on them. Take a Colossus down for slightly favorably (because it finished right as your drop was coming in, for example) and you gain a huge advantage immediately.

This is why gateway units vs bio is brought up -> because in that scenario losing one unit means the bio gets to shit all over you.

If everyone played "correctly" you'd never have to have this discussion.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
October 22 2014 21:47 GMT
#23274
On October 23 2014 06:36 Wombat_NI wrote:
Why does this thread go from interesting discussion to 'stalkers are terrible' in the space of a page, argh!

Most of this stuff is interesting too, but falls way, way too far from the ostensible balance issue/potential balance solution remit of the topic. More the kind of discussion for a 'design' thread, the existence of such during the HoTs beta saw some interesting radical ideas


I agree, "gateway units suck" is a stupid topic primarily because it will just lead to back to "warpgate sucks" which will lead back to "BW was better" and that's REALLY not something I want to get into.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
October 22 2014 22:06 GMT
#23275
On October 23 2014 06:28 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2014 05:59 Pursuit_ wrote:
On October 23 2014 05:54 DinoMight wrote:
Gateway units are fine. Sure it's aggravating to lose to bio when all you have is gateway units because in that sense, they are utter trash (and that's probably when you'll hear this most said) but not having AoE vs. MMM means that you did SOMETHING wrong along the way and thus deserve to lose anyway.

Basically, gateway units are garbage, but that's not relevant to how the game is played because you should make HT/Colossus.

If they buffed the Stalker, to the point where it could fight MMM head on, there would be no point to making any other unit. You'd just do a Blink "allin" and if it didn't win you'd just keep upgrading and making more Stalkers......


Well, moreso than that I really don't understand why everybody compares MMM to non-Templar Gateway units anyway. Marine Maurader (with stim / CS / Conc shells) vs Chargelot Blink Stalker is pretty even. If you add Medivacs, Terran's Tier 3 support unit, of course the Terran composition is stronger until Protoss also has their Tier 3 units added into the mix.

Hm, infrastructure-wise getting to Colossi/HT is 50% more costly than to medivacs. Which is disregarding their crucial researches storm/range, which makes the setup you have to go through 100% costly than to get a reactored starport.

Though I agree with the reasoning, but could we please not try to water things down by making them sound equal in an assymetric game! One side needs medivacs, the other one Colossi. These things are achievable. That's really all there needs to be said. Just me nitpicking :-)


Of course. The game is asymmetrical which is what makes it so interesting and fun. There are periods of strength and weakness based on relative timings. Gateway production is less expensive and time consuming than Bio production so Terran is typically passive until Medivacs are out. Medivacs are typically out faster than Protoss AoE (or Protoss cuts units to get AoE at the same time) so Terran has a powerful timing around the 10-11 minute mark that they usually use to get ahead in economy. Protoss has momentary army advantages while Terran has to get the corresponding counters to their army (Vikings vs Collosi, Ghosts vs HT, ect). There's a very obvious flow to standard TvP as a result of the asymmetrical design, probably the most explored and understood in the game since it's changed very little since 2010.

I'm just really tired of hearing 'Terran tier 1 beats everything' because it's not true at all. Like you said, it's not worth nitpicking since it will turn into a circular discussion, but Gateway units are far from 'garbage'.
In Somnis Veritas
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-22 23:48:00
October 22 2014 23:47 GMT
#23276
**Spoiler alert for WECG Korea ~Oct.21***

---
---
---

Given the recent TvP 0-6 of TY in the WECG semis and third place match, and 3 protoss in semis could we finally be seeing a minor adjustment to photon overcharge?
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25245 Posts
October 22 2014 23:52 GMT
#23277
No, definitely not.

TY yeah, he's a Proleague monster and brings out some sick and well-thought builds, but he often is way over-aggressive in games, especially with medivacs.

He does a lot of aggressive stuff that looks great to watch, dies and then people complain that the Protoss 'was outplayed all game'.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
October 22 2014 23:56 GMT
#23278
Here's something I find interesting. If I recall, Blizzard has often cited "tension" as an interesting factor in gameplay. Hence, there is typically a downside to doing something and thus the "tension" that you must struggle through with your opponent. For example, they want Terran to really think about how they use their Orbital energy.

But I ask, what is the downside of using photon overcharge? Does it slow down chrono energy replenishment? Does it slow down production at that nexus? Seems to me the only downside is the need to make a mothership core, and the energy on the mothership core (which would otherwise be used, defensively, for time warp). I'm just wondering whether there is enough tension in the photon overcharge. Seems to me the only downside is not having a time warp incase of a lazy boy push with scvs.
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25245 Posts
October 22 2014 23:59 GMT
#23279
I really dislike Photon Overcharge, and indeed the Mothership Core on the whole as I felt it was a Swiss Army Knife of a unit designed to plug a lot of holes for Protoss.

Imbalanced though I don't believe so currently.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
October 23 2014 00:11 GMT
#23280
"Imbalanced" is a discrete form in an analog world. Please caution.
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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