EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1164
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
Sure, they're bad in a straight up engagement against Maurader Medivac, but you never want to fight a MMM ball with pure Stalker... it would be like Terran trying to beat Collosi Zealot with pure Marine. | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On October 23 2014 02:42 Pursuit_ wrote: Wait, are we really arguing Stalkers are too bad of a unit? They're some of the most veratile / powerful units in the game, they have a role in all stages of PvZ / PvT and scale exponentially with micro. They're the one unit Protoss has that I can always 100% tell the difference between a great pro and a medioce pro from their use. It was literally like 2-3 months ago that Terran's couldn't stop complaining about them being too strong. Sure, they're bad in a straight up engagement against Maurader Medivac, but you never want to fight a MMM ball with pure Stalker... it would be like Terran trying to beat Collosi Zealot with pure Marine. If you can't win by amoving a unit that unit is bad. | ||
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antiRW
United Kingdom117 Posts
On October 23 2014 02:42 Pursuit_ wrote: Wait, are we really arguing Stalkers are too bad of a unit? They're some of the most veratile / powerful units in the game, they have a role in all stages of PvZ / PvT and scale exponentially with micro. They're the one unit Protoss has that I can always 100% tell the difference between a great pro and a medioce pro from their use. It was literally like 2-3 months ago that Terran's couldn't stop complaining about them being too strong. Sure, they're bad in a straight up engagement against Maurader Medivac, but you never want to fight a MMM ball with pure Stalker... it would be like Terran trying to beat Collosi Zealot with pure Marine. No, only one or two people argue that. But you will find one or two people arguing for just about anything. | ||
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Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
+ the openings terrans are doing are very marauder heavy these days. Is exacly why stalkers are very bad units in this meta. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 23 2014 03:21 Thieving Magpie wrote: I just realized pure muta comp can't fight MMM comp, let's buff muta guys! This objectively sounds like a great idea! I can't even remember the last game I saw this unit being built! lol | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 23 2014 03:23 Big J wrote: This objectively sounds like a great idea! I can't even remember the last game I saw this unit being built! lol What's the worse that could happen when we buff a unit based on it bein used outside of it's intended design? Blizz should do it! | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Basically, gateway units are garbage, but that's not relevant to how the game is played because you should make HT/Colossus. If they buffed the Stalker, to the point where it could fight MMM head on, there would be no point to making any other unit. You'd just do a Blink "allin" and if it didn't win you'd just keep upgrading and making more Stalkers...... the fact that Stalkers as a main combat unit have a shelf life (until Stim/Medivacs finish, until Hydras finish, until a couple of immortals/Voids are out) is what keeps them from being totally broken. Otherwise they'd be the Warhound. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On October 23 2014 05:54 DinoMight wrote: Gateway units are fine. Sure it's aggravating to lose to bio when all you have is gateway units because in that sense, they are utter trash (and that's probably when you'll hear this most said) but not having AoE vs. MMM means that you did SOMETHING wrong along the way and thus deserve to lose anyway. Basically, gateway units are garbage, but that's not relevant to how the game is played because you should make HT/Colossus. If they buffed the Stalker, to the point where it could fight MMM head on, there would be no point to making any other unit. You'd just do a Blink "allin" and if it didn't win you'd just keep upgrading and making more Stalkers...... Well, moreso than that I really don't understand why everybody compares MMM to non-Templar Gateway units anyway. Marine Maurader (with stim / CS / Conc shells) vs Chargelot Blink Stalker is pretty even. If you add Medivacs, Terran's Tier 3 support unit, of course the Terran composition is stronger until Protoss also has their Tier 3 units added into the mix. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 23 2014 05:59 Pursuit_ wrote: Well, moreso than that I really don't understand why everybody compares MMM to non-Templar Gateway units anyway. Marine Maurader (with stim / CS / Conc shells) vs Chargelot Blink Stalker is pretty even. If you add Medivacs, Terran's Tier 3 support unit, of course the Terran composition is stronger until Protoss also has their Tier 3 units added into the mix. Hm, infrastructure-wise getting to Colossi/HT is 50% more costly than to medivacs. Which is disregarding their crucial researches storm/range, which makes the setup you have to go through 100% costly than to get a reactored starport. Though I agree with the reasoning, but could we please not try to water things down by making them sound equal in an assymetric game! One side needs medivacs, the other one Colossi. These things are achievable. That's really all there needs to be said. Just me nitpicking :-) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25195 Posts
Most of this stuff is interesting too, but falls way, way too far from the ostensible balance issue/potential balance solution remit of the topic. More the kind of discussion for a 'design' thread, the existence of such during the HoTs beta saw some interesting radical ideas | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 23 2014 05:59 Pursuit_ wrote: Well, moreso than that I really don't understand why everybody compares MMM to non-Templar Gateway units anyway. Marine Maurader (with stim / CS / Conc shells) vs Chargelot Blink Stalker is pretty even. If you add Medivacs, Terran's Tier 3 support unit, of course the Terran composition is stronger until Protoss also has their Tier 3 units added into the mix. Eh, I'm not a fan of tiering systems. The game is asymmetrical and it doesn't really make sense. Medivacs are much easier to get out in numbers than Colossus, and Terran units lack the "bullseye" factor. Meaning every single Marine/Marauder is just as effective, but the AoE units in the Protoss army will always have a giant "bullseye" on them. Take a Colossus down for slightly favorably (because it finished right as your drop was coming in, for example) and you gain a huge advantage immediately. This is why gateway units vs bio is brought up -> because in that scenario losing one unit means the bio gets to shit all over you. If everyone played "correctly" you'd never have to have this discussion. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 23 2014 06:36 Wombat_NI wrote: Why does this thread go from interesting discussion to 'stalkers are terrible' in the space of a page, argh! Most of this stuff is interesting too, but falls way, way too far from the ostensible balance issue/potential balance solution remit of the topic. More the kind of discussion for a 'design' thread, the existence of such during the HoTs beta saw some interesting radical ideas I agree, "gateway units suck" is a stupid topic primarily because it will just lead to back to "warpgate sucks" which will lead back to "BW was better" and that's REALLY not something I want to get into. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On October 23 2014 06:28 Big J wrote: Hm, infrastructure-wise getting to Colossi/HT is 50% more costly than to medivacs. Which is disregarding their crucial researches storm/range, which makes the setup you have to go through 100% costly than to get a reactored starport. Though I agree with the reasoning, but could we please not try to water things down by making them sound equal in an assymetric game! One side needs medivacs, the other one Colossi. These things are achievable. That's really all there needs to be said. Just me nitpicking :-) Of course. The game is asymmetrical which is what makes it so interesting and fun. There are periods of strength and weakness based on relative timings. Gateway production is less expensive and time consuming than Bio production so Terran is typically passive until Medivacs are out. Medivacs are typically out faster than Protoss AoE (or Protoss cuts units to get AoE at the same time) so Terran has a powerful timing around the 10-11 minute mark that they usually use to get ahead in economy. Protoss has momentary army advantages while Terran has to get the corresponding counters to their army (Vikings vs Collosi, Ghosts vs HT, ect). There's a very obvious flow to standard TvP as a result of the asymmetrical design, probably the most explored and understood in the game since it's changed very little since 2010. I'm just really tired of hearing 'Terran tier 1 beats everything' because it's not true at all. Like you said, it's not worth nitpicking since it will turn into a circular discussion, but Gateway units are far from 'garbage'. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
--- --- --- Given the recent TvP 0-6 of TY in the WECG semis and third place match, and 3 protoss in semis could we finally be seeing a minor adjustment to photon overcharge? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25195 Posts
TY yeah, he's a Proleague monster and brings out some sick and well-thought builds, but he often is way over-aggressive in games, especially with medivacs. He does a lot of aggressive stuff that looks great to watch, dies and then people complain that the Protoss 'was outplayed all game'. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
But I ask, what is the downside of using photon overcharge? Does it slow down chrono energy replenishment? Does it slow down production at that nexus? Seems to me the only downside is the need to make a mothership core, and the energy on the mothership core (which would otherwise be used, defensively, for time warp). I'm just wondering whether there is enough tension in the photon overcharge. Seems to me the only downside is not having a time warp incase of a lazy boy push with scvs. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25195 Posts
Imbalanced though I don't believe so currently. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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