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On August 24 2014 14:16 FabledIntegral wrote:
What a ridiculous post... I don't think anyone can be even remotely that biased. Show that to someone like Avilo and he'd even laugh at how insanely imba Terran would be. Pretty much every change would make the game so much more garbage, and the comparisons are utterly useless.
results seem to indicate that Protoss has been the strongest race this year. Terrans have not been represented, with the only exception for Taeja, since he is an exception to rule. It is also interesting the strongest foreigners at this point have been zergs. NOt saying that Snute, stephano, and scarlett are bad, they are phenomenal players. It's just that zergs have been strong. if you would show the evidence where terran is imba, that would be great.
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On August 24 2014 14:51 brickrd wrote:
i think thats a troll post. no one who actually plays this game would post something like "at least make ghosts good against zergling aggression". that doesn't even remotely make any kind of hypothetical sense
why not? it's just a game, and the designers have the ability to make any unit useful using their imagination. I do see that some aspects of the game might not be interesting. but I'd like to see ghosts used more often. I read in the unit composition info that Ghosts strength against zergs are mainly the snipe function and the nuclear option of course. However, I'd like see a ghost buff with their snipe increased, or maybe their range increased. Of course increase range would pose problems for protoss units .
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Snipe was already nerfed some time ago to be pretty crappy vs non psionics, unlikely to be reverted. Ghost snipe is already really good against infestor and vipers actually. My gripe with this ability is how spammy it is... when you are spam sniping you have no control over the rest of your army.
Though I would rather see EMP gone and replaced with something less boring.
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On August 26 2014 07:48 Genome852 wrote:
Snipe was already nerfed some time ago to be pretty crappy vs non psionics, unlikely to be reverted. Ghost snipe is already really good against infestor and vipers actually. My gripe with this ability is how spammy it is... when you are spam sniping you have no control over the rest of your army.
Though I would rather see EMP gone and replaced with something less boring.
Snipe is kinda meh from a viewer perspective when spammed, the coolest way to buff ghosts against zerg would be a nuke buff in my opinion.
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On August 25 2014 22:51 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 22:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 25 2014 21:36 Foxxan wrote:
RNG should go away as much as possible.
As close to 100% skill as possible is the fun part. 40% win chance builds is pure crap...Pure bloody crap.
But this doesnt mean there will be no attacks... Thats a pretty weird look at it.
There will be agressive builds, agressive playstyles.
Instead of all-in or cheese attacks there will be consistent attacks with micro and decision making for both sides..
Its so bloody boring watching someone go all-in People talk about RNG all the time. How is it RNG if an attack works which is scoutable? It isn't RNG, it is one player being lazy about scouting /playing safe and getting owned cause of it. Would you prefer it to have no fog of war for example? It certainly would reduce the RNG BY A LOT. Would it make the game better? No probably not. Nobody has a problem when the builds are reasonably scoutable, but in many cases they are not. Pre-patch, Blink/Oracle could both be tweaked to look identical in the early stages, and hidden anywhere on the map. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to completely shut down scouting with proper stalker placement. Blind countering one of these builds is a guarenteed loss against the other. Even worse, a blink play was never a true committment since it prevented the terran from getting any information. It was easy to start chronoboosting probes and there was no way for the terran to know if the protoss was still committed. This was rightly nerfed.As an example of a properly balanced cheese, look at the 2rax. There are a finite number of viable rax placements due to travel distance, it can be scouted by overlord or drone, and a minor economic sacrifice can generally protect you from it. Same thing with cannon rush.
Except it never was, the only thing that was changed was the map pool hard countering blink builds, and in the aftermath, incredible damage has been done against what options map makers have.
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On August 26 2014 22:09 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 22:51 r691175002 wrote:On August 25 2014 22:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 25 2014 21:36 Foxxan wrote:
RNG should go away as much as possible.
As close to 100% skill as possible is the fun part. 40% win chance builds is pure crap...Pure bloody crap.
But this doesnt mean there will be no attacks... Thats a pretty weird look at it.
There will be agressive builds, agressive playstyles.
Instead of all-in or cheese attacks there will be consistent attacks with micro and decision making for both sides..
Its so bloody boring watching someone go all-in People talk about RNG all the time. How is it RNG if an attack works which is scoutable? It isn't RNG, it is one player being lazy about scouting /playing safe and getting owned cause of it. Would you prefer it to have no fog of war for example? It certainly would reduce the RNG BY A LOT. Would it make the game better? No probably not. Nobody has a problem when the builds are reasonably scoutable, but in many cases they are not. Pre-patch, Blink/Oracle could both be tweaked to look identical in the early stages, and hidden anywhere on the map. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to completely shut down scouting with proper stalker placement. Blind countering one of these builds is a guarenteed loss against the other. Even worse, a blink play was never a true committment since it prevented the terran from getting any information. It was easy to start chronoboosting probes and there was no way for the terran to know if the protoss was still committed. This was rightly nerfed.As an example of a properly balanced cheese, look at the 2rax. There are a finite number of viable rax placements due to travel distance, it can be scouted by overlord or drone, and a minor economic sacrifice can generally protect you from it. Same thing with cannon rush. Except it never was, the only thing that was changed was the map pool hard countering blink builds, and in the aftermath, incredible damage has been done against what options map makers have.
What? Blink was nerfed directly with the various MSC nerfs, and the current map pool is as Blink-friendly as the last seasons.
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Snipe needs more double DMG using double energy. Way to much of a spamfest
Other then that I think Ghosts are fine.
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On August 26 2014 22:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 22:09 Meavis wrote:On August 25 2014 22:51 r691175002 wrote:On August 25 2014 22:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 25 2014 21:36 Foxxan wrote:
RNG should go away as much as possible.
As close to 100% skill as possible is the fun part. 40% win chance builds is pure crap...Pure bloody crap.
But this doesnt mean there will be no attacks... Thats a pretty weird look at it.
There will be agressive builds, agressive playstyles.
Instead of all-in or cheese attacks there will be consistent attacks with micro and decision making for both sides..
Its so bloody boring watching someone go all-in People talk about RNG all the time. How is it RNG if an attack works which is scoutable? It isn't RNG, it is one player being lazy about scouting /playing safe and getting owned cause of it. Would you prefer it to have no fog of war for example? It certainly would reduce the RNG BY A LOT. Would it make the game better? No probably not. Nobody has a problem when the builds are reasonably scoutable, but in many cases they are not. Pre-patch, Blink/Oracle could both be tweaked to look identical in the early stages, and hidden anywhere on the map. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to completely shut down scouting with proper stalker placement. Blind countering one of these builds is a guarenteed loss against the other. Even worse, a blink play was never a true committment since it prevented the terran from getting any information. It was easy to start chronoboosting probes and there was no way for the terran to know if the protoss was still committed. This was rightly nerfed.As an example of a properly balanced cheese, look at the 2rax. There are a finite number of viable rax placements due to travel distance, it can be scouted by overlord or drone, and a minor economic sacrifice can generally protect you from it. Same thing with cannon rush. Except it never was, the only thing that was changed was the map pool hard countering blink builds, and in the aftermath, incredible damage has been done against what options map makers have. What? Blink was nerfed directly with the various MSC nerfs, and the current map pool is as Blink-friendly as the last seasons.
Yeah. Msc nerfs were a big blow to Blink allins. You still saw them after, but they were more risky.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2014 10:33 chatuka wrote:
Zergs been strong since day one of the game. They keep on gettting good options to use like
swarm hosts, vipers, changelings. On top of that they have useful foot soldiers like Roaches, Hydras(HP is too low on the Hydralisk), Zerglings, banelings. They have air support in mutalisks corruptors, and defensive options like spore crawlers. I don't want to nerf the Zerg, it's a great race to play, but they need to make Terran units more useful against countless zerg options.
I've said they needed to buff the thor, and they have. They need to make the banshee's defense stronger. The raven should be buffed as well, slightly of course. The reaper finally got speed which is great, I still think that it should be a bit cheaper. 25 gas, instead of 50 gas. why does a reaper need that much gas in the first place? +5 attack instead of +4.
-Ghosts cost so much, at least make them powerful to useful against Zergling aggression right? you could increase the range(but decrease EMP attack power), increase the HP, or even increase the speed of the ghosts. Or, the Snipe attack could be upped to 40-50 Air or Ground.
-Ravens cost 200 gas yet they only have 140 hit points? why? they should have at least 170-190 hit points.Or you can reduce the cost of gas from 200G to 150 Gas.
-The siege tank (150/125)for the gas it costs should have 180-200 hit points or the Tank should have an increase in GP(16-18) or an increase in range(12-13). .
-The Swarmhost is 200/100G and so is the ghost. yet the ghosts HP is only 100, and the SH is at 160. This is crazy stuff. The Swarmhost can release these locusts that have their own supply of HP and Attack power. it's a great weapon for Zerg, but terran needs more units that can deal with the Swarm host late game.
-The cost of the Thor(300/200) is 10 times more than a marine yet, the HP of a Thor is only about 9 times as much as a marine. The HP of a Thor should be upped to 450 IMO.
-the Viking, the HP of a Viking should probably be around 140-145 not 125. Yet it costs 150M/75? what is this? mutalisk
gas should be probably 50-75 instead of 100. why so much gas for one mutalisk?
-If the roach is only 75/25 yet it has 145 HP, with +16 attack. why isn't there an answer to it like either a marauders who's cost should be either more similar to the Roach, or increase the HP of the reaper, or they could make hellions cheaper or slightly increase the HP.
- The Banshee needs more hit points upped to probably 160-170. Ground Power should be probably around 13-14. The cloak could last longer, but be more difficult to obtain easily, by making it a long time upgrade. maybe 2 minutes to prevent cheesiness by terrans.
Um Im terran and all of these changes sound really really broken. The balance in sc2 is so delicate that even innocuous changes like queen range increased to 5 has a huge impact on game ballance to even think of making so many changes to one race when the game is in a realitivly good state of balance is absurd and odviusly a troll post or very biased post. BTW i am terran biased and play terran.
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On August 25 2014 21:58 Grumbels wrote:
My favorite solution for improving nydus and overlord drop play is to reduce the unloading time for zerglings by half. I think the current unloading time is the same for every single unit, but this is very punishing for zerglings specifically.
This is actually a good idea Zerglings take so dam long to unload right now they really should take half time. Its not a huge balance concern but it makes the nydus really clunky for anything but high supply units.
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On August 27 2014 02:37 washikie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2014 10:33 chatuka wrote:
Zergs been strong since day one of the game. They keep on gettting good options to use like
swarm hosts, vipers, changelings. On top of that they have useful foot soldiers like Roaches, Hydras(HP is too low on the Hydralisk), Zerglings, banelings. They have air support in mutalisks corruptors, and defensive options like spore crawlers. I don't want to nerf the Zerg, it's a great race to play, but they need to make Terran units more useful against countless zerg options.
I've said they needed to buff the thor, and they have. They need to make the banshee's defense stronger. The raven should be buffed as well, slightly of course. The reaper finally got speed which is great, I still think that it should be a bit cheaper. 25 gas, instead of 50 gas. why does a reaper need that much gas in the first place? +5 attack instead of +4.
-Ghosts cost so much, at least make them powerful to useful against Zergling aggression right? you could increase the range(but decrease EMP attack power), increase the HP, or even increase the speed of the ghosts. Or, the Snipe attack could be upped to 40-50 Air or Ground.
-Ravens cost 200 gas yet they only have 140 hit points? why? they should have at least 170-190 hit points.Or you can reduce the cost of gas from 200G to 150 Gas.
-The siege tank (150/125)for the gas it costs should have 180-200 hit points or the Tank should have an increase in GP(16-18) or an increase in range(12-13). .
-The Swarmhost is 200/100G and so is the ghost. yet the ghosts HP is only 100, and the SH is at 160. This is crazy stuff. The Swarmhost can release these locusts that have their own supply of HP and Attack power. it's a great weapon for Zerg, but terran needs more units that can deal with the Swarm host late game.
-The cost of the Thor(300/200) is 10 times more than a marine yet, the HP of a Thor is only about 9 times as much as a marine. The HP of a Thor should be upped to 450 IMO.
-the Viking, the HP of a Viking should probably be around 140-145 not 125. Yet it costs 150M/75? what is this? mutalisk
gas should be probably 50-75 instead of 100. why so much gas for one mutalisk?
-If the roach is only 75/25 yet it has 145 HP, with +16 attack. why isn't there an answer to it like either a marauders who's cost should be either more similar to the Roach, or increase the HP of the reaper, or they could make hellions cheaper or slightly increase the HP.
- The Banshee needs more hit points upped to probably 160-170. Ground Power should be probably around 13-14. The cloak could last longer, but be more difficult to obtain easily, by making it a long time upgrade. maybe 2 minutes to prevent cheesiness by terrans.
Um Im terran and all of these changes sound really really broken. The balance in sc2 is so delicate that even innocuous changes like queen range increased to 5 has a huge impact on game ballance to even think of making so many changes to one race when the game is in a realitivly good state of balance is absurd and odviusly a troll post or very biased post. BTW i am terran biased and play terran.
ROFL 50 gas Mutalisks. Protoss will never beat Zerg again.
EDIT - before I get another warning:
I think that would make Muta switches far too strong as you'd be able to switch into basically twice as many Muta (since minerals are not generally the limiting factor).
But it would also make rushing out Muta much easier vs Terran mech and make that style borderline unplayable.
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On August 27 2014 02:42 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 21:58 Grumbels wrote:
My favorite solution for improving nydus and overlord drop play is to reduce the unloading time for zerglings by half. I think the current unloading time is the same for every single unit, but this is very punishing for zerglings specifically. This is actually a good idea Zerglings take so dam long to unload right now they really should take half time. Its not a huge balance concern but it makes the nydus really clunky for anything but high supply units.
I don't know if it's possible to change this value in the editor (I had a quick look and couldn't find it), which I think is a prerequisite for changes Blizzard makes in-between expansions.
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On August 27 2014 05:32 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2014 02:42 washikie wrote:On August 25 2014 21:58 Grumbels wrote:
My favorite solution for improving nydus and overlord drop play is to reduce the unloading time for zerglings by half. I think the current unloading time is the same for every single unit, but this is very punishing for zerglings specifically. This is actually a good idea Zerglings take so dam long to unload right now they really should take half time. Its not a huge balance concern but it makes the nydus really clunky for anything but high supply units. I don't know if it's possible to change this value in the editor (I had a quick look and couldn't find it), which I think is a prerequisite for changes Blizzard makes in-between expansions.
Yeah but it would take all of 5 minutes for someone to change that? I'm sure they could do it easily.
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On August 27 2014 05:36 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2014 05:32 Grumbels wrote:On August 27 2014 02:42 washikie wrote:On August 25 2014 21:58 Grumbels wrote:
My favorite solution for improving nydus and overlord drop play is to reduce the unloading time for zerglings by half. I think the current unloading time is the same for every single unit, but this is very punishing for zerglings specifically. This is actually a good idea Zerglings take so dam long to unload right now they really should take half time. Its not a huge balance concern but it makes the nydus really clunky for anything but high supply units. I don't know if it's possible to change this value in the editor (I had a quick look and couldn't find it), which I think is a prerequisite for changes Blizzard makes in-between expansions. Yeah but it would take all of 5 minutes for someone to change that? I'm sure they could do it easily.
They don't like doing anything that's not number changes when its not an expansion. Remember how they held out fungal being a projectile until HoTS? Its the good old fighting game PayForBalance™
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On August 27 2014 06:11 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2014 05:36 DinoMight wrote:On August 27 2014 05:32 Grumbels wrote:On August 27 2014 02:42 washikie wrote:On August 25 2014 21:58 Grumbels wrote:
My favorite solution for improving nydus and overlord drop play is to reduce the unloading time for zerglings by half. I think the current unloading time is the same for every single unit, but this is very punishing for zerglings specifically. This is actually a good idea Zerglings take so dam long to unload right now they really should take half time. Its not a huge balance concern but it makes the nydus really clunky for anything but high supply units. I don't know if it's possible to change this value in the editor (I had a quick look and couldn't find it), which I think is a prerequisite for changes Blizzard makes in-between expansions. Yeah but it would take all of 5 minutes for someone to change that? I'm sure they could do it easily. They don't like doing anything that's not number changes when its not an expansion. Remember how they held out fungal being a projectile until HoTS? Its the good old fighting game PayForBalance™
Because Zerg with any bigger fungal nerfs would have been complete garbage against Protoss in WoL and probably would have had an incredible hard time against T too in the midgame
There was no muta regeneration, no Vipers or Swarm Hosts. And Ultras did 15damage to Zealots/Archons. Each and every Zerg strategy relied on Infestors, all other styles were bad beyond a certain point.
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On August 27 2014 06:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2014 06:11 Morbidius wrote:On August 27 2014 05:36 DinoMight wrote:On August 27 2014 05:32 Grumbels wrote:On August 27 2014 02:42 washikie wrote:On August 25 2014 21:58 Grumbels wrote:
My favorite solution for improving nydus and overlord drop play is to reduce the unloading time for zerglings by half. I think the current unloading time is the same for every single unit, but this is very punishing for zerglings specifically. This is actually a good idea Zerglings take so dam long to unload right now they really should take half time. Its not a huge balance concern but it makes the nydus really clunky for anything but high supply units. I don't know if it's possible to change this value in the editor (I had a quick look and couldn't find it), which I think is a prerequisite for changes Blizzard makes in-between expansions. Yeah but it would take all of 5 minutes for someone to change that? I'm sure they could do it easily. They don't like doing anything that's not number changes when its not an expansion. Remember how they held out fungal being a projectile until HoTS? Its the good old fighting game PayForBalance™ Because Zerg with any bigger fungal nerfs would have been complete garbage against Protoss in WoL and probably would have had an incredible hard time against T too in the midgame There was no muta regeneration, no Vipers or Swarm Hosts. And Ultras did 15damage to Zealots/Archons. Each and every Zerg strategy relied on Infestors, all other styles were bad beyond a certain point.
Yes, i'm sure that solved the game's balancing problems. Infestors would still be god tier with projectile fungal as long as IT spam was there.
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On August 24 2014 16:05 Svizcy wrote:
I still think we have preatty good balance atm, since we have such nice RO16 in GSL code S now. I don't even remmeber when it was the last time when we had 5-5-6 race distribution in RO16.
What do you mean by "good balance atm?" You must have said that in a good will, but I can't help but seeing the shallowness of this community from that line. I wonder if people will change their minds in two weeks when the distribution in RO8 becomes 5-2-1 or something like that? Then what? Blizzard fail?
I would look more into the actual game plays.
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On August 27 2014 08:37 usethis2 wrote:I wonder if people will change their minds in two weeks when the distribution in RO8 becomes 5-2-1 or something like that? Then what? Blizzard fail?
As usual, people from the leading race will say that's it's because those players are simply better, while the other two races will alternate between Blizzard fail and reasonable arguments that get them flamed by the first.
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On August 27 2014 08:37 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2014 16:05 Svizcy wrote:
I still think we have preatty good balance atm, since we have such nice RO16 in GSL code S now. I don't even remmeber when it was the last time when we had 5-5-6 race distribution in RO16.
What do you mean by "good balance atm?" You must have said that in a good will, but I can't help but seeing the shallowness of this community from that line. I wonder if people will change their minds in two weeks when the distribution in RO8 becomes 5-2-1 or something like that? Then what? Blizzard fail? I would look more into the actual game plays.
Its simply stupid to just look at roXX and draw conclusion from there given the GSL format.
What seems more reasonable is to look at results of post patch GSL qualifiers :
11 P - 9 T - 5 Z to CODE A
13 - 6 - 5 to CODE S
Looks pretty much how I see the balance now. I hope Zerg doesn't extinct before next patch
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This was a silly patch, they should have went for a patch that changes gameplay.
PvT 278–340 (44.98%)
PvZ 456–457 (49.95%)
TvZ 338–335 (50.22%)
->
PvT 30–41 (42.25%)
PvZ 78–74 (51.32%)
TvZ 62–47 (56.88%)
I guess some people got what they wanted.
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EPT
