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On August 13 2011 02:03 darkest44 wrote:
The worst part is, these asshat coaches let their players enter the qualifiers before hand KNOWING NASL's policies and how much they pay for travel. Then, even when they doubled the travel allowance and minimum prize, they still pull out at the last minute. Thats a damn dick move. You make these negotiations before you enter a tournament, not after you're already in and now you leave and leave a huge gapping hole in the brackets. So immature and unprofessional.
Completely wrong. There was no agreed policy because contracts for season 2 were not finalized. The coaches acted on the assumption that NASL would do more than they did. NASL organizers acted on the assumption that the Koreans would conceded more than they did. In the end, it's just a failed negotiation. Regardless of how much they're paying if SC2con and the players don't feel like they're getting a good deal, they have no obligation to stay. These negotiations couldn't be done before qualifiers because qualifiers occurred during season 1. That and qualifiers =/= obligated to play in tournament. That comes with the contract that was never finished. I would suggest you go understand the article and the points being made in this thread before spouting off about immaturity and being asshats.
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On August 13 2011 02:07 MrTortoise wrote:
aggresivness is the wrong word, the langauge was not neutral. The post clearly sides with NASL.
Im not disputing that NASL has had the shit end of the stick (moreso the fans and possibly the players) - however its about what was written. If you didnt notice then that is precisley the problem.
The article could of been written differently and then you would of said NASL are ass hats - as would 95% of readers because langauge has all kinds of tricks in how you interpret it
Actually. Koreans expecting NASL to pay for hotel and airfare has no other way of writing it to make NASL look bad.
You can even write, NASL refused to pay Koreans to come to the tournament. Oh hey, look, facts are facts, you can't deny that.
Therefore, read between the lines and the message is still there, Koreans are being unreasonable etc.
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[B]On August 13 2011 01:52 tripper688 wrote: Show nested quote +
Winning $X and then converting $X to $Y means you have more money. Seems pretty simple to me. =) Now if you have to spend money to win money then you could possibly lose money. But that doesn't appear to be the case here.
Are you trolling? You realize AT BEST, you convert X into an equivalent amount of Y. If 1 dollar = 1200 won, you only get 1200 won. Which only buys you about as much as 1 USD. If you have to convert at currency exchange or banks, they take a percentage. So yes you will lose money. Not to mention the cost of living in Seoul is higher than that for many American cities. How far will $300 go in the US? It'll go about as far or less in Seoul.
It's still a net gain, whether it's worthwhile is a separate issue. Are we arguing different things? NASL S1 top prize was $40k usd (I think) which is 43million won approximately. With redistribution of the prize pool and prize stipend NASL offered. They essentially get a shot at the top prize in exchange for time and commitment.
I don't see how they could actually lose money on this proposition. Cost of travel, hotel, food is pretty much covered. NASL is fronting the expense upfront anyway. So while I understand there being reasons not to do this. It looks like both sides get a pretty decent deal. Koreans get a shot at the big prize and paid travel. NASL gets Korean players that should translate into more viewers for their sponsors.
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On August 13 2011 02:10 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On August 13 2011 01:52 tripper688 wrote:
Winning $X and then converting $X to $Y means you have more money. Seems pretty simple to me. =) Now if you have to spend money to win money then you could possibly lose money. But that doesn't appear to be the case here.
Are you trolling? You realize AT BEST, you convert X into an equivalent amount of Y. If 1 dollar = 1200 won, you only get 1200 won. Which only buys you about as much as 1 USD. If you have to convert at currency exchange or banks, they take a percentage. So yes you will lose money. Not to mention the cost of living in Seoul is higher than that for many American cities. How far will $300 go in the US? It'll go about as far or less in Seoul. It's still a net gain, whether it's worthwhile is a separate issue. Are we arguing different things? NASL S1 top prize was $40k usd (I think) which is 43million won approximately. With redistribution of the prize pool and prize stipend NASL offered. They essentially get a shot at the top prize in exchange for time and commitment. I don't see how they could actually lose money on this proposition. Cost of travel, hotel, food is pretty much covered. NASL is fronting the expense upfront anyway. So while I understand there being reasons not to do this. It looks like both sides get a pretty decent deal. Koreans get a shot at the big prize and paid travel. NASL gets Korean players that should translate into more viewers for their sponsors.
There has to be an infinite money troll/meme in here somewhere. Swear to God, TL mods need to start wrecking fools before this thread gets de-railed by uneducated retards who don't know wtf currency conversion is.
www.xe.com
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Wow, this is terrible news. I'm not going to pretend to understand who is at fault, or wade through 150 pages. All I can say is that I am severely disappointed I won't get to see my favorite foreigners and Koreans battle it out together in the NASL S2. 
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I was curious what air travel would cost. Getting the tickets only 2 weeks from now round trip Seoul to L.A. is only $1500-$1800.
Not sure how a minimum of $2,000 (that's if you dont' win a single game) isn't enough.
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I am really disappointed, even angry that NASL and GSL cannot discuss problem BEYOND money... come''on this isn''t a money problem, why pretend it to be? Get it straight dammit; now everyone suffers from stupid politics and competition. NASL should correct their format, if that is the problem OR they Korean teams should put up the finger to the GSL, because they DENY their way for global fame and experience... GSL arrogance and NASL noobness are KILLING
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Puma is still in guys. That's enough for me.
Also, this is better for all NASL players, as they have a better shot at the prize pool moneys
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On August 13 2011 02:15 epb1982 wrote:
I am really disappointed, even angry that NASL and GSL cannot discuss problem BEYOND money... come''on this isn''t a money problem, why pretend it to be? Get it straight dammit; now everyone suffers from stupid politics and competition. NASL should correct their format, if that is the problem OR they Korean teams should put up the finger to the GSL, because they DENY their way for global fame and experience... GSL arrogance and NASL noobness are KILLING
GSL doesn't have a say in this. The SC2con does.
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On August 13 2011 02:17 zmansman17 wrote:
Puma is still in guys. That's enough for me.
Also, this is better for all NASL players, as they have a better shot at the prize pool moneys
yeah but the counter argument is that it's worse for competition and viewer interest
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On August 13 2011 02:04 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:26 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:07 mav451 wrote:
The Koreans pulled out at the last-minute because their demands weren't met. Try to remember that NASL wasn't trying to portray anything. Last-minute is last-minute; and to me, it seems the Koreans felt like they could extract additional advantages from pulling these tactics. If anything, both sides lost, so I don't know why anyone is rooting one way or another.
The transparency about this was...refreshing to say the least. Last minute is last minute? Did you not read the part where they were asking for changes to season 2 or they would pull out in preparation for season 2? Try to remember that they weren't bound to any contract nor did they not warn NASL. NASL took a gamble by hoping that things would work out and didn't bother with a contingency...obviously that wasn't the case. Now Koreans are being bashed for it? From NASL's point of view, the Koreans made no move to budge so they were at an impasse. 2 options. Tell them sorry, maybe next time, and arrange for replacements OR give in. NASL did neither and it bit them in the ass. From the Koreans point of view, we want more compensation for *insert laundry list of reasons* NASL is refusing to comply. We pick our ball and take it home. How anyone can like either of them after this is beyond me but in the end, the responsibility lies with NASL as event organizers. That's what it comes down to. Their event, they need to keep on top of the ball by making sure the players, the paperwork, the scheduling, the casters, etc everything is ready to go with a backup if something fails. If you're a wedding planner but your contract negotiations with your florist goes up in flames a week before the wedding, you're still on the hook for the wedding. Make it happen NASL. Read NASL's first post again. I think it's pretty clear you missed the bolded part. Show nested quote +Unfortunately, we were notified August 9th (our 2nd day of filming) that this offer was unacceptable, and that Koreans were withdrawing from the league.
We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. I'm not going to pretend to know the exact timeline, but waiting until the 2nd day of filming is most definitely LAST minute. The white-knighting for the koreans is absurd in this thread. Stick to the facts. My question is why did the Koreans wait till the 2nd day of filming to withdraw? If they made up their mind, one way or another, you should inform the other party ASAP. Waiting until the 2nd day of filming seems like a really under-handed and disrespectful thing to do. Like I said in my post, I understand that it's part of the negotiating/hard-ball process (stretching timelines for negotiation), but waiting until the final hour to do that is messed up.
There was no contract in place. They could have pulled out at any time. They could have waited for 2 more days of filming to pull out. They could have even waited another week. Why did they wait until the 2nd day of filming to withdraw? Because maybe that's when they realized they couldn't possibly get what they wanted and that NASL wouldn't give any more offers. NASL had weeks of notice that there the Koreans had demands and should have been planning a contingency in case they couldn't meet them. And there is no timeline for when the offer was submitted. You asking me why specifically they waited till the 2nd day to just pull out is completely irrelevant without a timeline. What difference does it make if they pull out after the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th days? Wouldn't have an even bigger impact in a couple more days? Stick to the facts, the Koreans clearly said they threatened to withdraw if the demands were not met long before production already started : On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote:
In preparation for Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties].
They were well within there right to do so at the moment they decided their demands wouldn't be met and that it was pointless to keep trying. Remember, the Koreans don't want to withdraw if they don't have to. NASL doesn't want them to withdraw if they can't help it. Neither party wants to lose but there is an impasse. I don't think you can comment on intent without knowing the internal discussion or the timeline at all.
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On August 13 2011 00:48 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:44 DjSpectre wrote:
I'm pretty late responding to the original post (heard about it on Destiny's stream last night), but I feel this is a prick move on the part of the Koreans. They basically quadrupled their offer and the Korean's still said no, despite having signed a contract that didn't include any of these terms.
To be honest, NASL might be able to sue the Korean teams who backed out for breech of contract if NASL's viewership goes way down as a result of this.
IMO, to try and manipulate a fledgling league like this just smacks, to me, of the Korean's throwing their superiority in everyone's face. It was beyond rude and utterly egocentric for them to make these demands after their contracts had been signed. And then to wait until two weeks before it all kicks off to basically give NASL the finger, is chaffing my hide raw.
I'll watch NASL now just because they aren't coming just to prove that we don't need Korean's to have a popular and successful tournament. You are free to have ur own opinion about who's wrong and who's right. But you are making some assumptions here - there was no contract signed nor was there conditions agreed upon by both parties. Also Koreans' intent is not to manipulate - they're simply saying the tournament condition isn't working out for them. Now at this point, if you still want to say they're being unfair, well, that's ur call.
Perhaps I missed something in the initial reading. But my understanding (which is what my statement was based on) was that a contract had already been signed for Season 2 and that the Korean groups were trying to renegotiate the terms of that contract only a few weeks before the start of the tournament. Which is why NASL began filming and production.
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On August 13 2011 02:14 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I was curious what air travel would cost. Getting the tickets only 2 weeks from now round trip Seoul to L.A. is only $1500-$1800.
Not sure how a minimum of $2,000 (that's if you dont' win a single game) isn't enough.
Hotel and transportation cost, I imagine.
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On August 13 2011 02:11 x6Paramore wrote:There has to be an infinite money troll/meme in here somewhere. Swear to God, TL mods need to start wrecking fools before this thread gets de-railed by uneducated retards who don't know wtf currency conversion is. www.xe.com
Fuck, enlighten me. How the fuck does winning prize money mean you lose money? You might get less money do to conversion. Banks will take a percentage off the top of your winnings. There might even be taxes you are required to pay out of the prize winnings. But if the travel expenses are covered, how the fuck does it cost you money to win or compete for the prize pool? NASL is offering to pay the upfront costs.
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On August 13 2011 02:04 x6Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:43 deerpark87 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:30 krisss wrote:On August 13 2011 01:09 sc2guy wrote:Let me rewrite the OP to make it more diplomatic.After many hours spent working with our sponsors and writing proposals, it is with our great displeasure regret to announce that Koreans from oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime will not participate in the NASL. At the very beginning of the first season, all players and team managers were sent a rule set and contract that outlined exactly how the league would work and what the NASL would provide to its players. The NASL agreed to provide a $500 travel stipend to each player who advanced to the Grand Finals, in addition to shuttle service to and from the airport and venue. This contract was signed by all players and team managers. We made the offer to all teams and players that we could handle hotel booking and travel (to and from the airport) for the Grand Finals and subtract those prices from player travel stipends. Almost every player took us up on this offer. The week before the Grand Finals, Koreans expressed difficulty paying for their travel, and asked us to buy their plane tickets. We solved this problem by offering to buy their tickets and subtract the cost from prize winnings and whatever was left of the stipend. In preparation forBefore the start of Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened wanted to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands conditions were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]. In an effort to try to ease the difficulty of travel, we managed to double our travel budget to $1,000 per player in addition to the minimum prize of $500. As we need to start the season on schedule, we had to start filming with the issues at hand. Unfortunately, we were notified August 9th (our 2nd day of filming) that this offer was unacceptable they cannot agree to our offer, and that Koreans were withdrawing from the league. We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal.my comment:
irrelevant because NASL was notified during preparation of Season 2. If that is considered the final hour to notify NASL, please enlightening me when will be a better time? We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. my comment:
It is an assumption on NASL part to make it sound like SC2Con is denying koreans from playing in NASL. We do not know if the players are actually complaining to SC2Con and SC2Con is simply representing them. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season.my comment:
Usually when you respect somebody statement/opinion, you don't add BS at the end. While this does mean that NASL Season 2 will be slightly delayed, we remain steadfast in our commitment to eSports – we will broadcast high quality games every day and bring you some of the very best play the world has to offer. -- North American Star League nice one. best post in here This is actually one of the worst posts. Sure, NASL's writing is bias toward their own organization. At what point in time did self-interest become a crime to journalism? First of all, the issue at hand is not how NASL phrases things. Even with your "rephrased" version, the problem is still Koreans having these expectations that NASL will pay them to come. Second, these expectations are wrong because NASL is not an employer of pro-gamers that pays their gamers to participate and win even more money that NASL has to pay out. NASL is a competition and thus should be treated as such. Do you see Chinese olympics, or GSL or any Olympics or NHL hockey league or NBA basketball league paying for other country's players so they can participate in the medal games/competition/ stanley cup/ NBA finals? NO Their own teams pay for them. Period. I hate NASL just as much as everyone else here, but don't make it like they are the bad guys in THIS situation. They clearly are the victims of Korean team's unreasonable expectations.
Honestly, I think this needs to be echoed more and more. The NASL post sounds more awful than it actually is because the NASL brass has a really awful history of aggressive postings. It is aggressive, but if you read the EG posts it's not like they're a cup of tea as well. I think it's OK for a company to say "We're really unhappy with the way things went down." and it doesn't need to turn in to us telling them they need to use more corporate speak and add some soft, cute bunny pictures to their posts.
At the same time, it is expected that a venue pays out to bring in teams; that's kinda the way such things work in things like NCAA and Auto Racing. I think that's fine, but the teams shouldn't be expecting that they walk out with $0 net expense. Last time I'd heard numbers, the venue payout for the Mid-Ohio Raceway is barely enough for any team to get there; however, the sponsorship dollars and winnings cover the rest without a big problem. Otherwise, you end up in a situation that's completely unfair and is basically holding the venue ransom. The things a team should be putting together are their own expense sheets and making it more clear to venues what it is they need to get their players around. If your sponsors suck for foreign tournaments then how much of that is really the foreign tournament's fault? Several companies seem to be tripping over themselves to sponsor Korean players! Contract out with the other teams, too, like you've seen with the teams doing lately! [ed: just in case it wasn't clear: i agree with you on this one, just pointing out that other sports actually do have venues pay. But that doesn't mean teams can take advantage of that.]
Finally, I expect there's more to this than meets the eye. I have a feeling the big sticking point for the Korean folk was more the awful schedule, the absolutely beyond miserable way the finals play out, and the $500 security deposit. I understand that many foreigner players were awful about meeting commitments, but it seems more fair that NASL implements a better policy with regard to their deposit that's fair for all sides. This feels like a situation where, after living in an apartment for a year, the rental company says "Hey, we love having you and we're happy to keep you around, but we need another $250 for your security deposit and we decided that instead of raising your rent we'd just charge you another $175 admin fee. That's cool, right?"
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The true losers in this are the NA/EU players who got robbed of their chance to compete in the NASL because the qualifier spots were taken by a bunch of players who won't play now.
No justification for SC2con to do such a dick move at this point in time.
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Everyone has their own problems that takes more than words to explain, so please do understand both sides' difficulties. D:
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On August 13 2011 02:10 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On August 13 2011 01:52 tripper688 wrote:
Winning $X and then converting $X to $Y means you have more money. Seems pretty simple to me. =) Now if you have to spend money to win money then you could possibly lose money. But that doesn't appear to be the case here.
Are you trolling? You realize AT BEST, you convert X into an equivalent amount of Y. If 1 dollar = 1200 won, you only get 1200 won. Which only buys you about as much as 1 USD. If you have to convert at currency exchange or banks, they take a percentage. So yes you will lose money. Not to mention the cost of living in Seoul is higher than that for many American cities. How far will $300 go in the US? It'll go about as far or less in Seoul. It's still a net gain, whether it's worthwhile is a separate issue. Are we arguing different things? NASL S1 top prize was $40k usd (I think) which is 43million won approximately. With redistribution of the prize pool and prize stipend NASL offered. They essentially get a shot at the top prize in exchange for time and commitment. I don't see how they could actually lose money on this proposition. Cost of travel, hotel, food is pretty much covered. NASL is fronting the expense upfront anyway. So while I understand there being reasons not to do this. It looks like both sides get a pretty decent deal. Koreans get a shot at the big prize and paid travel. NASL gets Korean players that should translate into more viewers for their sponsors.
I may have misunderstood the intent of the post was to claim $1 = 1200 won omg so gud. If that is the case, my apologies. The point isn't that there isn't potential to make money for Koreans. It's that the overall potential for the players involved isn't as high as some are making it out to be with all the issues mentioned concerning play times, latency, more Koreans, etc. which makes it not worth it for them to disrupt 3 months of training and scheduling for other tournaments. It's not just about the finals, it's about the cost of time/commitment/energy for getting there which is higher than for foreigners through no real fault of their own.
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United Arab Emirates116 Posts
Wake up call to NASL I guess. Change the Ro16 format, that way there is actual incentive for players to compete, more than dangling money/free tickets and housing. Look at it from the Koreans side, why would they join in on a half-prepared, almost unprofessionally run (based on season one) tournament when all the glory is in GSL, according to their own terms. NASL needs them more than they need it. They are simply making a logical decision
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On August 13 2011 02:25 DjSpectre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:48 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:44 DjSpectre wrote:
I'm pretty late responding to the original post (heard about it on Destiny's stream last night), but I feel this is a prick move on the part of the Koreans. They basically quadrupled their offer and the Korean's still said no, despite having signed a contract that didn't include any of these terms.
To be honest, NASL might be able to sue the Korean teams who backed out for breech of contract if NASL's viewership goes way down as a result of this.
IMO, to try and manipulate a fledgling league like this just smacks, to me, of the Korean's throwing their superiority in everyone's face. It was beyond rude and utterly egocentric for them to make these demands after their contracts had been signed. And then to wait until two weeks before it all kicks off to basically give NASL the finger, is chaffing my hide raw.
I'll watch NASL now just because they aren't coming just to prove that we don't need Korean's to have a popular and successful tournament. You are free to have ur own opinion about who's wrong and who's right. But you are making some assumptions here - there was no contract signed nor was there conditions agreed upon by both parties. Also Koreans' intent is not to manipulate - they're simply saying the tournament condition isn't working out for them. Now at this point, if you still want to say they're being unfair, well, that's ur call. Perhaps I missed something in the initial reading. But my understanding (which is what my statement was based on) was that a contract had already been signed for Season 2 and that the Korean groups were trying to renegotiate the terms of that contract only a few weeks before the start of the tournament. Which is why NASL began filming and production.
The post says they had a contract for season 1. They then say they were basing their negotiations from that. It then goes into filming. At no point does it mention signing a contract for season 2 and if they did, it would definitely clear things right the hell up and it would be a mystery to me as to why it's not explicitly stated as such.
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EPT
