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Good OP and you did a fine job explaining everything and have my respect for that, I also think that the trade was fine.
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:Thanks for your side of the story. Although, I believe EG may have indirectly sparked kespa 2.0 Puma was really becoming the Ace of a team that didn't "yet" have enough sponsors to support him as well as EG. imo. This was EG looking at Puma and whispering to themselves "omg, no salary, no contract, he's awesome, let's get him". If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster. Puma hwaiting, and best of luck. Poll: Team EG0 was already a fan and still am (1969) 43% -1 fan (1818) 40% +1 fan (802) 17% 4589 total votes Your vote: Team EG (Vote): +1 fan
(Vote): -1 fan
(Vote): 0 was already a fan and still am
This poll is unfair, you forgot the option "wasn't an EG fan, still not an EG fan". Those people are most likely voting -1
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On July 26 2011 10:00 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:59 Executor1 wrote:On July 26 2011 09:50 IcedBacon wrote:On July 26 2011 09:45 Tanatos wrote:On July 26 2011 09:39 Enhancer_ wrote:
Statement pretty much confirms what I already came to believe last week, but it's very good that it's made much more clear for some who may not have followed this as closely.
The comments about Milkis are of a whole other issue, and the argument for translators being journalist is debatable and Milkis simply seemed to have ended up in the unfavorable position of having to defend his side of the debate, which he was wholly and understandably unprepared for.
Are there actually any English to Korean translators here who could get this statement out to Koreans? Would only seem fair to the Korean community if they got to have some people just as cool as the translators here. I actually translated WoC episode and put it in PlayXP, which is pretty much what he just said. Overall reaction was.. they hate him more now. Plus if someone actually went ahead and translated this entire essay... Yeah, they would not be pleased. It doesn't take that many paragraphs to make a simple statement unless you know you're at fault and are trying to cover shit up. He repeats the exact same thing 6 times in different words. Then apologizes for repeating the same thing and does it again. Im pretty sure people on TL arent that stupid and can reread something they dont understand. It sounds like he was trying to write a live speach where he tries to get one point across clearly, but this is written format we arent stupid we can reread things we dont understand. I think its kind of disrespectful to the TL community to treat us like babies who need to have the same simple thing repeated to us over and over again until we understand. He is trying to drill information into a community that has the attention span of a goldfish. If he has to type something 5 times for people to actually remember it then so be it.
IF someone has a short attention span they sure as hell arent going to read that whole thing, so i dont see you point,.
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I've never thought less of EG for what happened, but I feel like the point about puma being released before an agreement could be made is fairly irrelevant, considering the exact same result occurred as if EG really did intend to swipe puma from TSL without speaking to lee.
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On July 26 2011 10:00 Zocat wrote:First of all - I dont really think what you (EG) did was bad. You (EG) saw a good player, with no contract and no salary and could offer him a good deal. You (EG) would actually be stupid not to take that chance  And I think it's ok to approach the player first to check if he's interested. Imho you basically have to approach both the managment (if a contract exists) & the player at the same time. If the players says "No not interested" talks to the managment dont make sense. If the managment says "Not for sale" talking to the player doesnt make sense. I didnt really like how you approached the whole situation though. Especially "attacking" Milkis and demanding professionalism but when you look at your own team member's (Scoots) tweets - they dont really scream professionalism to me. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
Additionally, I want to be very, very clear: Evil Geniuses does not sign contracted players away from other teams. In fact, quite to the contrary, we have one of the longest resumes of player purchases and transfers of any international gaming team. Just last year alone, we purchased the World of WarCraft player Emerson "Woundman" Condon from Fnatic, and we also purchased the SC2 player Ben "DeMusliM" Baker from mTw. These transactions occurred with transfer fees and signed transfer agreements, as well as mutual press releases from both organizations - feel free to Google the press releases if you like. We have a long history of respecting agreements.
But I wonder what's the point of this? "Sir - I never stole anything. Just last week I bought X and Y". Having a history of doing good may be looking good - but doesnt affect the current situation at all. Also it's interesting that you mention "EG doesnt sign contracted players away from other teams" when you later mention "4) PuMa was not contracted by TSL, and did not receive a salary.". So the whole paragraph doesnt even apply to Puma since it only applies to contracted players? Again - what's the point of this paragraph? Apart from trying to look good  Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
Overall, we've put a lot of time and hard work into securing enough budget from our sponsors to properly support a top-tier Korean player. And overall, we think that it's a good thing that international teams like EG are increasing the overall amount of financial support available to Korean players. After all, as a result of this, PuMa will instantly become one of the highest paid SC2 players in Korea, and he will be able to travel to any foreign tournament he wants to.
It is good for who? The players? Yeah, sure. For EG (and other international teams), yeah sure.
For the Korean teams? Not really that good I think you mentioned on WoC that you didnt want a "All Koreans have contracts" situation "like Kespa". Maybe I dont recall that correctly? I think the example was Brazil not making their players available for "foreign" countries. And how that would play out in football. But football is the perfect example - young, promising players (not important if they're from Brazil or any other country) get trained in some teams and then sold to the big clubs. So projecting this at SC2 / Korea it would mean every Korean player is under contract with his team (the SC2 Association can basically enforce that) and foreign teams can buy out those players (similiar to how your history with Demuslim & that WoW guy). Would that be a scenario which you would appreciate? Because, as I said, I got the feeling that you were against such a situation in the WoC show.
Wait, do you actually think acquiring players is supposed to benefit a team they weren't contracted with in the first place? That makes no sense. You aren't supposed to make another team better when you add players to your team because you're hurting your cause. It's a competition, like every tournament you watch.
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Who actually spoke to Puma at the event?
To be very honest, with EG's "longstanding professionalism" of purchasing players, I don't believe for one second that whoever it was didn't know better than to approach a player directly. I don't care about claims as a "planned first step". It's obviously going to be taken in a negative light... EG hardly had any reason to be impartial (besides your honor...........lol) when speaking to a player and the Manager of the team in question knows that and you know that.
I just can't help but feel that what EG does what EG wants. EG is somehow exempt from the rules and courtesies. Can you see how someone might get the impression that you actually ARE the big machine that you claim not to be?
Anyway, I think it's silly. Alex should not have to sit down and type out sugar coated wall's of text. As one of the biggest names of the game and without a doubt, one of the the most influential teams you guys have a responsibility to lead by example.
Anyway, not going to ask for beheadings over it. As an organisation, you assist in the turning of the wheel that is eSports. You know this. We know this. Now can you all manner up, please.
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On July 26 2011 09:59 vnlegend wrote:
So EG goes to Puma, while he's away from his manager, teammates, and team in general, talks about contract, details and so forth about joining their team.
Then tells Puma "Ok Puma, when you're ready to join our team, tell your coach."
This isn't how trades are done in Korea. Presumably they have a free agency period where it is known which players are making themselves available for trades, or the team management contact each other to negotiate. There was no negotiation here, just telling Puma to give his letter of resignation.
Then blame everything on Puma in the end. Brilliant.
wtf is wrong with you? he mentioned about three times that PUMA was the one who told EG he wanted to talk to the coach when he was ready to join.
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On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:Thanks for your side of the story. Although, I believe EG may have indirectly sparked kespa 2.0 Puma was really becoming the Ace of a team that didn't "yet" have enough sponsors to support him as well as EG. imo. This was EG looking at Puma and whispering to themselves "omg, no salary, no contract, he's awesome, let's get him". If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster. Puma hwaiting, and best of luck. Poll: Team EG0 was already a fan and still am (1969) 43% -1 fan (1818) 40% +1 fan (802) 17% 4589 total votes Your vote: Team EG (Vote): +1 fan
(Vote): -1 fan
(Vote): 0 was already a fan and still am
the poll should have another 0 option for wasn't a fan to begin with
having -1 as the only not a fan option makes it sound like they are losing fans (when there are many people that weren't fans originally)
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Thank you so much for the well-written and well thought out response. It's too bad things had to blow up so badly before you could get this out.
Also, there is no way that Milkis is owed an apology for what happened on WoC. Disagreeing with someone in a public discussion isn't a wrong requiring apology.
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On July 26 2011 10:02 Shikyo wrote:Good OP and you did a fine job explaining everything and have my respect for that, I also think that the trade was fine. Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:Thanks for your side of the story. Although, I believe EG may have indirectly sparked kespa 2.0 Puma was really becoming the Ace of a team that didn't "yet" have enough sponsors to support him as well as EG. imo. This was EG looking at Puma and whispering to themselves "omg, no salary, no contract, he's awesome, let's get him". If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster. Puma hwaiting, and best of luck. Poll: Team EG0 was already a fan and still am (1969) 43% -1 fan (1818) 40% +1 fan (802) 17% 4589 total votes Your vote: Team EG (Vote): +1 fan
(Vote): -1 fan
(Vote): 0 was already a fan and still am
This poll is unfair, you forgot the option "wasn't an EG fan, still not an EG fan". Those people are most likely voting -1
This demonstrates the PR issue. EG did everything right, but didn't present it well enough. Hence, people have this negative "feeling".
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On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
I simply let him know (via a translator) that EG was looking to support a Korean player, and asked him if he had any interest on a general level.
Do you think the readers of this forum are slow or something?
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On July 26 2011 09:53 Fugue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:49 hmmm... wrote:
why would EG Alex condemn Milkis for translating an article showing Coach Lee's side?
is he really that uneducated... Becasue the end result of that was the story propagating outside of Korea - A story that resulted in a lot of bad press for EG. As Alex says - they intended to be put in contact with Coach Lee to negotiate an agreement. Instead Coach Lee publicly releases Puma and speaks as though EG were trying to snipe the team's top performer. If that story never broke, and instead Lee talked to EG, then this wouldn't have happened. Which is what Alex can't let go of and why he attacked Milkis for spreading the story and keeps on expressing his belief that EG wasn't entirely at fault.
blame a translator for the bad press? there are a couple of people you might blame for the bad press but you cant fucking blame the translator
if milkis wasn't going to translate it then i'm certain somebody would have. i'd rather have the article in its fully translated glory than hear rumors about it. I just can not wrap my head around this idea that milkis is responsible for EG's bad press. Should he stop, think and ask himself "this isn't hurting anybody's image is it? is this bad press for somebody?"
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On July 26 2011 10:03 jarrydesque wrote:
Who actually spoke to Puma at the event?
To be very honest, with EG's "longstanding professionalism" of purchasing players, I don't believe for one second that whoever it was didn't know better than to approach a player directly. I don't care about claims as a "planned first step". It's obviously going to be taken in a negative light... EG hardly had any reason to be impartial (besides your honor...........lol) when speaking to a player and the Manager of the team in question knows that and you know that.
I just can't help but feel that what EG does what EG wants. EG is somehow exempt from the rules and courtesies. Can you see how someone might get the impression that you actually ARE the big machine that you claim not to be?
Anyway, I think it's silly. Alex should not have to sit down and type out sugar coated wall's of text. As one of the biggest names of the game and without a doubt, one of the the most influential teams you guys have a responsibility to lead by example.
Anyway, not going to ask for beheadings over it. As an organisation, you assist in the turning of the wheel that is eSports. You know this. We know this. Now can you all manner up, please.
Alex did, he gave him a business card and asked him if he considered representing a foreign team.
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On July 26 2011 09:58 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:52 PiQLiQ wrote:
its a great move from EG's side of it. Why shouldn't they pick him? Because there's an abundance of cheap, unknown talent in Korea at the moment.
Unknown talent does attract eyeballs and sponsors.
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it doesn't matter if you get paid or not to be considered a journalist, that's just naive. milkis did not only translate the articles but he also got supporting information from another site so its not just a "translated article". AG also mentioned that milkis shouldn't consider himself just a translator, but consider himself a journalist (translator being a lesser position), although it might've sounded like an attack to some people, i interpreted it as AG respecting milkis' as an individual who should consider himself (directed at milkis) as a person of higher standing.
personally i do feel that it was wrong that the topic about journalist standards being brought up after the discussion, it definitely does need to be addressed.
i do have to stand on AG's side for this as information on the internet today travels really quick and has the weight to shift people's view, wrongly accuse or even tarnish an image before a proper response can be provided. Its not that easy to react when you get blindsided (especially when timezone difference is a factor)
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On July 26 2011 10:02 Charger wrote:
I don't have any idea why a team would approach a coach to ask if his players might be interested in leaving...? You ask the player, the player thinks about it, player talks to coach about it, then coaches talk to each other. There is no cultural issue with that because EG wasn't snaking around Lee like he made it seem (and how many saw it). I've said it before and I'll say it again, Lee shares a ton of blame in this for assuming the worst and immediately acting upon his knee jerk response.
I'll still be a fan of EG, I don't have any issues at all with how things were handled with Puma on their end. Maybe some issues with Milkis but that's another story.
This. Of course you don't ask the coach if their player has an interest in leaving, and of course the coach will say that the player doesn't have interest in leaving.
But of course, logic never prevails against short sighted haters.
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Edit by EGAlex:I didn't want to comment on the Milkis/journalism situation in this particular post, because I think it deserves its own discussion, and would be distracting to the subject matter of this post. This thread should be about EG, PuMa, and TSL. I will be making a separate post regarding Milkis later in the week. For the record, while I stand by the points I made on that subject, I have already apologized to him in private for my accusatory tone and approach to him on the show.
satisfied ?
or you still want him to apologize right here right now even though he apologized to him in person and he dont want it to become a distraction in this thread -.-
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On July 26 2011 10:04 tooPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:58 Jibba wrote:On July 26 2011 09:52 PiQLiQ wrote:
its a great move from EG's side of it. Why shouldn't they pick him? Because there's an abundance of cheap, unknown talent in Korea at the moment. Unknown talent does attract eyeballs and sponsors.
and unknown talent is just talent, it isnt a refined thing. You dont pay people lots of money when they're no where near to showing results. EG had the money to pay a player like Puma and support him so they did.
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On July 26 2011 10:05 damod wrote:Show nested quote +Edit by EgAlex:I didn't want to comment on the Milkis/journalism situation in this particular post, because I think it deserves its own discussion, and would be distracting to the subject matter of this post. This thread should be about EG, PuMa, and TSL. I will be making a separate post regarding Milkis later in the week. For the record, while I stand by the points I made on that subject, I have already apologized to him in private for my accusatory tone and approach to him on the show. Satesfied ?
Not with your spelling im not
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On July 26 2011 10:05 damod wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Edit by EgAlex:I didn't want to comment on the Milkis/journalism situation in this particular post, because I think it deserves its own discussion, and would be distracting to the subject matter of this post. This thread should be about EG, PuMa, and TSL. I will be making a separate post regarding Milkis later in the week. For the record, while I stand by the points I made on that subject, I have already apologized to him in private for my accusatory tone and approach to him on the show. Satesfied ?
Nope, because his points are demonstrably false. Accusing someone of defamation is not something you agree to disagree about.
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EPT
