compLexity Gaming and Team MVP establish an exclusive joint partnership named “coL.MVP.”
Houston, Texas & Seoul, South Korea July 22, 2011
complexity Gaming and Team MVP are proud to announce that we have agreed to form an exclusive joint partnership which will see the formation of a jointly controlled StarCraft 2 division, currently consisting of two players: Park Soo Ho (“DongRaeGu”) and Jung Min Soo (“Genius”).
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level. DongRaeGu and Genius will represent compLexity and MVP both inside Korea and at international events. While playing inside Korea the players will wear a MVP jersey with a compLexity logo. While participating outside Korea they will sport a compLexity jersey with a MVP logo. compLexity will provide the global travel support. The players will also be available to join compLexity’s StarCraft 2 division during online team play. compLexity players who wish to train in Korea will be hosted at the MVP House for training purposes.
DongRaeGu’s first international appearance will be at MLG Anaheim. Genius is expected to return to Blizzcon 2011 to defend his 2010 championship. Events beyond that will be determined jointly by compLexity and MVP management.
“We are very happy to make this long term commitment to MVP and to StarCraft 2,” said Jason Lake, founder and CEO of compLexity Gaming. “The Korean community is a global powerhouse and we’re confident the addition of DongRaeGu and Genius will allow compLexity to continue our success on the stage of global gaming. Thanks very much to Choi at MVP for his amazing cooperation and vision and thanks to our sponsors SoundBlaster, PNY and Origin for making this dream a reality. We look forward to working along side our Korean friends and humbly ask for the support of their vibrant community.”
“MVP is very excited to work with one of the most famous gaming teams in the world,” said Choi Yoon Sang, manager of MVP. “We are extremely confident that this partnership will expand both our brand and the gaming experiences of DongRaeGu and Genius. Complexity approached us in a very respectful manner and the negotiations made it clear this is a great deal for both parties. I am very excited for the future.”
About compLexity Gaming:
Complexity Gaming® is the premier competitive gaming brand in the Americas. Owned and operated by some of the finest minds in the industry, Complexity has a long heritage of championship caliber teams, superstar players, news reporting and gaming entertainment ventures. Complexity's gamers have been featured by numerous mainstream media outlets like Sports Illustrated, New York Post, Los Angeles Times and the Wall Street Journal. They have also appeared on live television programs such as CBS' 60 Minutes and the Championship Gaming Series, have been featured in film documentaries and were a focus of the book "Game Boys." The company's online properties Noobflicks.com and MyGamerFeed.com have ensured that Complexity remains a premier destination for media content in the gaming sector. About Team MVP:
MVP is a top Korean StarCraft 2 team that is officially recognized by the Korea StarCraft 2 association. Lead by manager Choi Yoon Sang and coach Lee Kang Beum, the team has experienced much success in the first year of StarCraft 2.
Please feel free to welcome DRG and Genius on the official post (Facebook available):
dam more partnerships. this one seems very much so like the SK - oGs pairing, and it seems like MVP and col both have quite a bit to gain from this. grats
Oh, here's a semi article I had written up before I stopped trying to make it any good:
Did the EG's pursuit of TSL's Puma close the gates for many Koreans? As much as EG's Alex Garfield espoused the the need for Korea to open itself up to the international way of ESPORTS business, he may very well have become a detriment to his own cause.
Following the the news of Puma's enticement by a foreign team, Korea's two major SC II media sites PlayXP and ThisIsGame wasted no time publishing editorials calling for the hasty implementation of protectionary measures from the Starcraft II Conference (S2Con) of Korea. In fact, ThisIsGame reported that GomTV and S2Con had already felt the need the create protectionary measures before the EG-TSL ordeal went down. If that were not enough, S2Con's own columnist also chipped in with his opinion, brutally criticizing his own organization for their failure to protect the interests of Korean teams and players in this regard.
That's not to say that we won't see more deals like that between MVP and Complexity or oGs and SK. In those deals, the original Korean team retains effective 'ownership' of the player while the foreign company is merely subsidizing his overseas activities.
But the line seems to be drawn at Korean players making complete moves to foreign teams, and it may soon become a very difficult one to cross.
Well second of it's kind if we expand the definition a bit, but wow, this is really interesting. FXO/Complexity/Liquid are really pushing the boundaries.
Great deal, its really interesting to see all the top koreans getting teamed up in partnerships/new teams in the run up to the next mlg, more hype, congrats to col and mvp good choice imo.
Ps: instead of killing ESPORTS, col be growing ESPORTS :D
Chad just posted a link to the official Complexity release on his stream, was waiting for it to be posted on Team Liquid.
This is just the month of announcements, teams trying to one up each with their Korean relations!
This is a great thing for Complexity, I love the idea of a partnership more than an acquisition or a player pickup since it keeps both teams alive individually and creates a continuous link between two existing organizations inside and outside Korea.
I was kind of on the fence in regards to being a Complexity fan for a while since the ROOT acquisition but seeing how some of the former ROOT players had continued to interact with the existing members of the team, and now seeing Complexity make an effort at a partnership as opposed to buying players, I'm liking the organization quite a bit, color me a fan.
Great opportunity, I hope both teams can hopefully build upon this relationship and get practice, support and develop a friendship out of this beyond the two players mentioned.
Amazing, I hope EG takes notes that this is clearly the best way to go about working with Korean players. coL has my respect and I hope all future foreign-korean dealings involve great partnerships like this.
What is all this! Too much news in one week for me lol. I don't even know what to think anymore. Definitely congrats to the coL players though, this should be a great opportunity for you guys to gain opportunities to play in Korea and to really refine your SC2 skills by playing with the best =).
P.S. Does this mean LastShadow is now part of coL technically? He is going to Korea to live in the MVP house as a B-teamer if remember correctly. Just curious how this affects his situation.
The humorous part i find about this is that EG may never get a chance to partner with a korean team because of what they did, while all these other foreign teams are getting a chance to.
On July 23 2011 10:38 moltenlead wrote: Well second of it's kind if we expand the definition a bit, but wow, this is really interesting. FXO/Complexity/Liquid are really pushing the boundaries.
On July 23 2011 10:40 xBillehx wrote: Amazing, I hope EG takes notes that this is clearly the best way to go about working with Korean players. coL has my respect and I hope all future foreign-korean dealings involve great partnerships like this.
Are people going to bring this up every time a Kr team partners now?
Hiring a player from another team that doesn't want to let that player go is not the same as partnership AT ALL.
On July 23 2011 10:41 JinDesu wrote: The humorous part i find about this is that EG may never get a chance to partner with a korean team because of what they did, while all these other foreign teams are getting a chance to.
Like EG cares, they can just throw more money at their problem(s).
Also I just want to add that its a strange coincidence that so many Western teams are buying contracts from Koreans, buying the entire team together and making joint partnerships all within the space of a month.
On July 23 2011 10:35 Waxangel wrote: DRG FIGHTING!!!!!!
Oh, here's a semi article I had written up before I stopped trying to make it any good: + Show Spoiler +
Did the EG's pursuit of TSL's Puma close the gates for many Koreans? As much as EG's Alex Garfield espoused the the need for Korea to open itself up to the international way of ESPORTS business, he may very well have become a detriment to his own cause.
Following the the news of Puma's enticement by a foreign team, Korea's two major SC II media sites PlayXP and ThisIsGame wasted no time publishing editorials calling for the hasty implementation of protectionary measures from the Starcraft II Conference (S2Con) of Korea. In fact, ThisIsGame reported that GomTV and S2Con had already felt the need the create protectionary measures before the EG-TSL ordeal went down. If that were not enough, S2Con's own columnist also chipped in with his opinion, brutally criticizing his own organization for their failure to protect the interests of Korean teams and players in this regard.
That's not to say that we won't see more deals like that between MVP and Complexity or oGs and SK. In those deals, the original Korean team retains effective 'ownership' of the player while the foreign company is merely subsidizing his overseas activities.
But the line seems to be drawn at Korean players making complete moves to foreign teams, and it may soon become very a very difficult one to cross.
On July 23 2011 10:41 JinDesu wrote: The humorous part i find about this is that EG may never get a chance to partner with a korean team because of what they did, while all these other foreign teams are getting a chance to.
Like EG cares, they can just throw more money at their problem(s).
I dunno, they did say that they couldn't afford to pay the exuberant amounts it would take to "buy" a player off a korean team legitimately.
With the way EG conducted business in the Puma affair, I doubt they'll be able to get any kind of working relationship with any Korean team =)) I'll laugh my ass off when one day they're the only major foreigner team that can't have any sort of partnership with Koreans; they don't have anyone else to blame but themselves.
Congrats complexity and MVP! Hope this partnership will be a fruitful and successful one.
On July 23 2011 10:44 BIGSTEVE808 wrote: Anyone know what the Complexity jersey is like? Isn't Anaheim also the first event that the former ROOT guys are attending as Complexity?
And i just want to say that i like it this way. Koreans will be able to practice hard when they are doing this type of deals, they don't need to practice "alone" or move to a foreign house. But in the EG Puma case its different deal.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
On July 23 2011 10:44 Olinim wrote: When SK did this with MC and Nada everyone was pissed off. It's the same thing...hypocrites :/
That was because SK threw away their entire team and is just using NaDa and MC to promote their brand, MC and NaDa most certainly don't have a lack of funds to travel. But with Complexity they're giving a chance to two deserving players to come out and play in western tournaments.
On July 23 2011 10:41 JinDesu wrote: The humorous part i find about this is that EG may never get a chance to partner with a korean team because of what they did, while all these other foreign teams are getting a chance to.
Did you even listen to EGs response on WoC? They have no interest in partnerships with korean teams and dont believe in that concept.
On July 23 2011 10:35 Waxangel wrote: DRG FIGHTING!!!!!!
Oh, here's a semi article I had written up before I stopped trying to make it any good:
Did the EG's pursuit of TSL's Puma close the gates for many Koreans? As much as EG's Alex Garfield espoused the the need for Korea to open itself up to the international way of ESPORTS business, he may very well have become a detriment to his own cause.
Following the the news of Puma's enticement by a foreign team, Korea's two major SC II media sites PlayXP and ThisIsGame wasted no time publishing editorials calling for the hasty implementation of protectionary measures from the Starcraft II Conference (S2Con) of Korea. In fact, ThisIsGame reported that GomTV and S2Con had already felt the need the create protectionary measures before the EG-TSL ordeal went down. If that were not enough, S2Con's own columnist also chipped in with his opinion, brutally criticizing his own organization for their failure to protect the interests of Korean teams and players in this regard.
That's not to say that we won't see more deals like that between MVP and Complexity or oGs and SK. In those deals, the original Korean team retains effective 'ownership' of the player while the foreign company is merely subsidizing his overseas activities.
But the line seems to be drawn at Korean players making complete moves to foreign teams, and it may soon become very a very difficult one to cross.
The Great South Korean Wall is going up? It'd be nice to have more concrete information about what exactly these institutions are planning or have already done.
On July 23 2011 10:44 Olinim wrote: When SK did this with MC and Nada everyone was pissed off. It's the same thing...hypocrites :/
That was because SK threw away their entire team and is just using NaDa and MC to promote their brand, MC and NaDa most certainly don't have a lack of funds to travel. But with Complexity they're giving a chance to two deserving players to come out and play in western tournaments.
MC had to pay out of his own pocket to go. SK is giving the chance to two deserving players to come out and play in more western tournaments.
On July 23 2011 10:44 Olinim wrote: When SK did this with MC and Nada everyone was pissed off. It's the same thing...hypocrites :/
That was because SK threw away their entire team and is just using NaDa and MC to promote their brand, MC and NaDa most certainly don't have a lack of funds to travel. But with Complexity they're giving a chance to two deserving players to come out and play in western tournaments.
MC had to pay out of his own pocket to go. SK is giving the chance to two deserving players to come out and play in more western tournaments.
I think it's the more the fact that they sacked their entire team and decided to just sponsor top Korean players right?
YEEEESS, this means DRG at foreign events!!!!! Woot Complexity, I could not be happier with this news!!!!!! I have been waiting to see DRG at foreign events for so long, I was thrilled when they announced his Anaheim invite, and can't freaking wait for him, to be at every major foreign event henceforth. (I don't care if this is too much to ask make it happen).
hm i have the feeling that most of the big foreign teams have changed from "lets show those koreans that we can compete with them" to "well if we cant beat them lets make them join us"
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Dang, all these korean-foreigner unification/acquisitions going on right. At least they make it exciting to come to teamliquid and see the latest news.
I would never have imagined complexity and mvp joining up but good luck to them!
Man, first Complexity takes a stand on quality & mannership in dropping Destiny, now they help bridge the Korea-World gap. Quickly becoming my favorite team.
Yay!! This sounds great for both teams and for esports as a whole. Seeing cooperation between foreign and Korean teams in this manner is really nice. DRG and Genius Fighting!!
As must as I dislike the way EG went about going after puma I still like that method a lot more than this Rent-A-Pro program SK and coL have taken up.
I fail to see how the players involved with these programs can ever be considered part of the team when all these organizations are doing is paying to borrow good players to make them look good at an event(s) rather than train and provide there own roster to get results.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
when are the new jerseys going up for sale? need one to replace my col la shirt lol
Haha the world is going crazy. This is great news, really looking forward to seeing DRG at foreign events. Great move by coL, another reason I like this team.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
On July 23 2011 10:51 MisterFred wrote: Man, first Complexity takes a stand on quality & mannership in dropping Destiny, now they help bridge the Korea-World gap. Quickly becoming my favorite team.
Mannership is not a word. I would not consider terminating Destiny a "stand on quality" as he has become a significant force in the community both in terms of player ability and player popularity.
On July 23 2011 10:52 Naughty wrote: As must as I dislike the way EG went about going after puma I still like that method a lot more than this Rent-A-Pro program SK and coL have taken up.
I fail to see how the players involved with these programs can ever be considered part of the team when all these organizations are doing is paying to borrow good players to make them look good at an event(s) rather than train and provide there own roster to get results.
I think it would be exactly the same as the SK deal, UNLESS Col sends players to Korea. In which case, this would be incredible for the team.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
I honestly really like this hybrid system between Korea and the rest of the world. It would be cool to see some more Korean teams take in players from foreign teams like oGs/TL.
On July 23 2011 10:51 MisterFred wrote: Man, first Complexity takes a stand on quality & mannership in dropping Destiny, now they help bridge the Korea-World gap. Quickly becoming my favorite team.
Mannership is not a word. I would not consider terminating Destiny a "stand on quality" as he has become a significant force in the community both in terms of player ability and player popularity.
Yeah, I wasn't actually a big fan of how the Destiny drop was handled but whatever, that's a different topic entirely.
Every team is allowed a couple of fumbles, this is just awesome news though.
On July 23 2011 10:52 Naughty wrote: As must as I dislike the way EG went about going after puma I still like that method a lot more than this Rent-A-Pro program SK and coL have taken up.
I fail to see how the players involved with these programs can ever be considered part of the team when all these organizations are doing is paying to borrow good players to make them look good at an event(s) rather than train and provide there own roster to get results.
How is buying out a top level Korean player to stomp the foreigner competition and absolutely demolish clan leagues any better? Its like the team gave up on their current roster and any future western players and just wants a Korean player for the notoriety.
Not a fan of compLexity. At all. That being said, I think this is a good deal and the kind of direction non-Korean teams should be heading with Korean teams. Team Liquid seems to have been doing this for awhile already, albeit as less of an "official business maneuver" and more of a casual agreement.
The compLexity/MVP partnership and FXO/fou acquisition are mutually beneficial to both players inside and outside of Korea; definitely more preferable to see this than teams that are simply actively trying to get Koreans to join them--the kinds of deals made on shaky grounds with very questionable long-term benefits.
On July 23 2011 10:52 Naughty wrote: As must as I dislike the way EG went about going after puma I still like that method a lot more than this Rent-A-Pro program SK and coL have taken up.
I fail to see how the players involved with these programs can ever be considered part of the team when all these organizations are doing is paying to borrow good players to make them look good at an event(s) rather than train and provide there own roster to get results.
slightly offtopic maybe, but i really have to ask this.
Alex Garfield said he was not a fan of those deals like SK-OGs (and Col-MVP i guess). Since 'they are taking money away from the players, except the prizemoney' .
Now i wonder... what money does SK (and Col) take away from the player? Normally the korean player and his team need to pay for the flight to international tournaments, and the only money the player could get on this tournement is prizemoney.
SK and Col seem to just let them wear other shirts at international tournements. I don't really see how this takes money away from the player.
This last weeks are just insane in korea-western esports team affairs/delas :D I really like what this is doing for western sc2 breaking the barrier to korea. Even though one of the affairs could have been done a little smoother jk jk
Isn't the difference here that CoL players get to travel to Korea and stay with MVP to train if they so choose, thus making this deal different that the SK-OGS deal? SK just borrows the players when they go out of the country while Col gets the opportunity to ship a few players to Korea for a 3-4 month training regiment to improve. Seems like a good deal if they've got players willing to take the trip and make the effort.
excellent move. MVP now gets exposure outside of korea and complexity gets to send their players to train in korea if they want. it's a win win situation. this type of collaboration is what's really needed to encourage the korean and foreigner scene to come together.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
It's the first of its kind, only in & of the fact it's the mash up of the oGs-TL & oGs-SK deals, just costing more than the TL partnership.
complexity would be wise to send Cruncher & Kiwikaki there as soon as possible. Otherwise, they're not going to get a lot out of this.
coL had an intense relationship when EG snagged coL's CS 1.6 team about 2-3 years ago, so I won't be surprised.
Yup. I read the announcement, thought that Jason Lake sounded incredibly familiar, and then it clicked. He's the guy who called out Alex Garfield for snatching coL's CS 1.6 team. This timing is absolutely genius.
I find this and all the other merger/korean and foreign team collaborations, very exciting. In a years time I wonder how the international scene and GSL korea sc2 pro scene looks I just hope this will bring up the level and work towards perfection, in the game for all parts of the world, where sc2 is played
On July 23 2011 10:38 moltenlead wrote: Well second of it's kind if we expand the definition a bit, but wow, this is really interesting. FXO/Complexity/Liquid are really pushing the boundaries.
SK gaming anyone?
Actually, SK/coL/FXO/Liquid are within boundaries. EG is expanding the boundaries <3
Also this is very, very awesome. MVP gets to keep their two star players and they get to stay with their team, but they now also have a great sponsorship and can go to more foreign events. Complexity gets one of the top zergs in the world to represent them at foreign tournaments and now has a partnership with a top Korean team if they ever want to send over a player to go for the GSL.
Really, really good move. With FXO/fOu, TL/oGs and now coL/MVP, it's really making it great for Korean teams and foreign teams to become partners/sister teams that benefit both sides.
On July 23 2011 10:35 Waxangel wrote: DRG FIGHTING!!!!!!
Oh, here's a semi article I had written up before I stopped trying to make it any good:
Did the EG's pursuit of TSL's Puma close the gates for many Koreans? As much as EG's Alex Garfield espoused the the need for Korea to open itself up to the international way of ESPORTS business, he may very well have become a detriment to his own cause.
Following the the news of Puma's enticement by a foreign team, Korea's two major SC II media sites PlayXP and ThisIsGame wasted no time publishing editorials calling for the hasty implementation of protectionary measures from the Starcraft II Conference (S2Con) of Korea. In fact, ThisIsGame reported that GomTV and S2Con had already felt the need the create protectionary measures before the EG-TSL ordeal went down. If that were not enough, S2Con's own columnist also chipped in with his opinion, brutally criticizing his own organization for their failure to protect the interests of Korean teams and players in this regard.
That's not to say that we won't see more deals like that between MVP and Complexity or oGs and SK. In those deals, the original Korean team retains effective 'ownership' of the player while the foreign company is merely subsidizing his overseas activities.
But the line seems to be drawn at Korean players making complete moves to foreign teams, and it may soon become a very difficult one to cross.
I think a great deal of this comes down to mere speculation, I expect with a sudden jump to stricter contracts a great deal of players are going to take a long, careful look at their options when it comes to playing Starcraft 2 professionally. This could probably go one of three ways.
1. The players and teams agree, perhaps totally or on a vast majority of terms when it comes to the adoption of new, tighter contracts. (this seems rather unlikely, considering that teams and players rarely get along so swimmingly, as evidenced by the genesis of KESPA in Sc1.)
2. The players decide to consolidate and agree to meet with team ownership and decide on rules that take into account the interests of both sides, as opposed to this strange view that team management is somehow the authority on all player considerations. (This seems likely, especially considering the already established players association headed by Junwi)
3. High profile players, ones who have the ability to make money anywhere, will scoff at tighter restrictions, potentially stagnant salaries and lockdows and seek out teams willing to shell out bigger bucks, more travel, etc. (Who knows? I could definitely see players with explosive recent developments of talent, see the entire HoSeo team haha, decide to strike out on their own so to speak.)
In the end, I really think it does the scene a disservice to be so explicitly negative about everything, AG acted as an American business should, the Koreans are reacting in an appropriate manner, and in the end these conflicts will boil down to mere growing pains as the Sc2 scene truly becomes global.
On July 23 2011 10:57 Krikan wrote: Isn't the difference here that CoL players get to travel to Korea and stay with MVP to train if they so choose, thus making this deal different that the SK-OGS deal? SK just borrows the players when they go out of the country while Col gets the opportunity to ship a few players to Korea for a 3-4 month training regiment to improve. Seems like a good deal if they've got players willing to take the trip and make the effort.
Pretty much, it's a legitimate two way partnership. Complexity will likely(read hopefully) encourage their own players to interact and be friendly with the MVP players when they come over to international events and should hope for the same in sending their players to Korea(which I hope they take advantage of).
The SK deal was more just paying two players who are already contracted to a team to represent their brand for exposure. This seems about much more than simple exposure, it's a two way partnership as opposed to a simple sponsorship which is more of what SK's situation was.
On July 23 2011 10:59 JiYan wrote: ohhh now theres fxo/fou, liquid/ogs, col/mvp. am i missing the thing that makes this really distinct from the other two though?
FXO and fOu are now the same team. They are now FXO. The fOu team is now the Korean division of FXO. Same coaching staff, players, etc. as fOu. If any FXO foreign players want to stay with Choya's team in Korea, they can. They don't need to live in the GOM house anymore.
oGs/TL is more of a partnership. They aren't the same team, but they wear each others patches, practice together, and any TL member can go to Korea and practice at the oGs house.
coL and MVP is a partnership between two players currently, DongRaeGu and Genius. coL sponsors them in Korea and at international events. When they come to international events, they wear coL jerseys with MVP patches. Probably means more members can get sponsored or some coL payers could go to Korea to practice with MVP.
On July 23 2011 10:35 Waxangel wrote: DRG FIGHTING!!!!!!
Oh, here's a semi article I had written up before I stopped trying to make it any good:
Did the EG's pursuit of TSL's Puma close the gates for many Koreans? As much as EG's Alex Garfield espoused the the need for Korea to open itself up to the international way of ESPORTS business, he may very well have become a detriment to his own cause.
Following the the news of Puma's enticement by a foreign team, Korea's two major SC II media sites PlayXP and ThisIsGame wasted no time publishing editorials calling for the hasty implementation of protectionary measures from the Starcraft II Conference (S2Con) of Korea. In fact, ThisIsGame reported that GomTV and S2Con had already felt the need the create protectionary measures before the EG-TSL ordeal went down. If that were not enough, S2Con's own columnist also chipped in with his opinion, brutally criticizing his own organization for their failure to protect the interests of Korean teams and players in this regard.
That's not to say that we won't see more deals like that between MVP and Complexity or oGs and SK. In those deals, the original Korean team retains effective 'ownership' of the player while the foreign company is merely subsidizing his overseas activities.
But the line seems to be drawn at Korean players making complete moves to foreign teams, and it may soon become a very difficult one to cross.
I think a great deal of this comes down to mere speculation, I expect with a sudden jump to stricter contracts a great deal of players are going to take a long, careful look at their options when it comes to playing Starcraft 2 professionally. This could probably go one of three ways.
1. The players and teams agree, perhaps totally or on a vast majority of terms when it comes to the adoption of new, tighter contracts. (this seems rather unlikely, considering that teams and players rarely get along so swimmingly, as evidenced by the genesis of KESPA in Sc1.)
2. The players decide to consolidate and agree to meet with team ownership and decide on rules that take into account the interests of both sides, as opposed to this strange view that team management is somehow the authority on all player considerations. (This seems likely, especially considering the already established players association headed by Junwi)
3. High profile players, ones who have the ability to make money anywhere, will scoff at tighter restrictions, potentially stagnant salaries and lockdows and seek out teams willing to shell out bigger bucks, more travel, etc. (Who knows? I could definitely see players with explosive recent developments of talent, see the entire HoSeo team haha, decide to strike out on their own so to speak.)
In the end, I really think it does the scene a disservice to be so explicitly negative about everything, AG acted as an American business should, the Koreans are reacting in an appropriate manner, and in the end these conflicts will boil down to mere growing pains as the Sc2 scene truly becomes global.
True, I may be being too negative. But I do need to point out that Korean progamers have proven to be one the weakest, poorly organized groups in the history of labor :o
As in, they're poor teenagers who haven't had much time to pursue interests outside of gaming. They're pretty much tailor-made to be exploited by people with money.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
sk players cant go to korea to train
Maybe they could if they had players.
Maybe they'd have players if they didn't drop them all in favor of Nada/MC
This is a perfect partnering. The western Col members can go to korea to practice for a month or two when they have time (look how much better QXC is after a couple months in korea) and the MVP players have an avenue to play and have support outside korea.
I would actually love if this expanded in the future to become a name representation in events too, strictly for Complexity's Starcraft 2 brand. I doubt it would happen but it would be really cool.
I think about the sound of MarineKingPrime.WE and I feel like the .WE gives the Prime name a nice ring, it wouldn't work for all teams but it could for Complexity first, MVP last. With a coLMinigun.MVP, coLCatz.MVP, coLDrewbie.MVP, coLCruncher.MVP it has a nice ring to it, and on the MVP side, MVPGenius.coL, MVPDongRaeGu.coL.
Hopefully this goes beyond two players in the future, but baby steps are fine by me.
I feel like i'm the only one annoyed over news like this. I'm all for KR + the world, don't get me wrong, but I feel like this is just turning into the Yankees and just bringing in strong players to make a team.. It lacks that home-grown, built-themselves-up kind of feel.
Really awesome news and it sounds like both sides are going to win in this situation. The biggest winners of all of this though are the viewers. Seriously, getting to see more of Genius and DRG in foreign tournaments, YES PLEASE!
Really excited to see this happen, congrats to both organizations on this arrangement!
On July 23 2011 11:01 BionicSC wrote: Fnatic/IM next? =)
Fnatic recently got Rain, they have their token Korean. Mousesports still need theirs, so perhaps IM-Mouz?
IM and Startale have bunch of sponsors. Don't think they need a partnership.
HoSeo, though, now THAT's a team where a foreign team should want to partner with. Whatever that coach is doing, he has a team full of amazing players with great potential.
On July 23 2011 11:01 BionicSC wrote: Fnatic/IM next? =)
Fnatic recently got Rain, they have their token Korean. Mousesports still need theirs, so perhaps IM-Mouz?
IM and Startale have bunch of sponsors. Don't think they need a partnership.
HoSeo, though, now THAT's a team where a foreign team should want to partner with. Whatever that coach is doing, he has a team full of amazing players with great potential.
That's true, but I think alot of the value in a partnership is outside of things like $$$, its stuff like being able to communicate easily with the foreign scene, schedule things, get invited to events, and so on.
On July 23 2011 11:06 DuckS wrote: I feel like i'm the only one annoyed over news like this. I'm all for KR + the world, don't get me wrong, but I feel like this is just turning into the Yankees and just bringing in strong players to make a team.. It lacks that home-grown, built-themselves-up kind of feel.
Maybe i'm just a freak.
The thing is there is no foreign talent...all the new talent is in korea. 99% of the foreign pro scene are former bw/wc3 pros. Compared to korea where u have like 10 new gosus no ones ever heard of pop up every other week. Obviously u have to go where the talent is -_-
On July 23 2011 10:35 Waxangel wrote: DRG FIGHTING!!!!!!
Oh, here's a semi article I had written up before I stopped trying to make it any good:
Did the EG's pursuit of TSL's Puma close the gates for many Koreans? As much as EG's Alex Garfield espoused the the need for Korea to open itself up to the international way of ESPORTS business, he may very well have become a detriment to his own cause.
Following the the news of Puma's enticement by a foreign team, Korea's two major SC II media sites PlayXP and ThisIsGame wasted no time publishing editorials calling for the hasty implementation of protectionary measures from the Starcraft II Conference (S2Con) of Korea. In fact, ThisIsGame reported that GomTV and S2Con had already felt the need the create protectionary measures before the EG-TSL ordeal went down. If that were not enough, S2Con's own columnist also chipped in with his opinion, brutally criticizing his own organization for their failure to protect the interests of Korean teams and players in this regard.
That's not to say that we won't see more deals like that between MVP and Complexity or oGs and SK. In those deals, the original Korean team retains effective 'ownership' of the player while the foreign company is merely subsidizing his overseas activities.
But the line seems to be drawn at Korean players making complete moves to foreign teams, and it may soon become a very difficult one to cross.
I think a great deal of this comes down to mere speculation, I expect with a sudden jump to stricter contracts a great deal of players are going to take a long, careful look at their options when it comes to playing Starcraft 2 professionally. This could probably go one of three ways.
1. The players and teams agree, perhaps totally or on a vast majority of terms when it comes to the adoption of new, tighter contracts. (this seems rather unlikely, considering that teams and players rarely get along so swimmingly, as evidenced by the genesis of KESPA in Sc1.)
2. The players decide to consolidate and agree to meet with team ownership and decide on rules that take into account the interests of both sides, as opposed to this strange view that team management is somehow the authority on all player considerations. (This seems likely, especially considering the already established players association headed by Junwi)
3. High profile players, ones who have the ability to make money anywhere, will scoff at tighter restrictions, potentially stagnant salaries and lockdows and seek out teams willing to shell out bigger bucks, more travel, etc. (Who knows? I could definitely see players with explosive recent developments of talent, see the entire HoSeo team haha, decide to strike out on their own so to speak.)
In the end, I really think it does the scene a disservice to be so explicitly negative about everything, AG acted as an American business should, the Koreans are reacting in an appropriate manner, and in the end these conflicts will boil down to mere growing pains as the Sc2 scene truly becomes global.
True, I may be being too negative. But I do need to point out that Korean progamers have proven to be one the weakest, poorly organized groups in the history of labor :o
As in, they're poor teenagers who haven't had much time to pursue interests outside of gaming. They're pretty much tailor-made to be exploited by people with money.
Sounds like the perfect impetus for the coming about of a player association with some teeth. It's not as though there are a shortage of former BW players who bring with them at the very least knowledge of, if not experience with, manipulative business interests and overbearing team management.
On July 23 2011 11:06 DuckS wrote: I feel like i'm the only one annoyed over news like this. I'm all for KR + the world, don't get me wrong, but I feel like this is just turning into the Yankees and just bringing in strong players to make a team.. It lacks that home-grown, built-themselves-up kind of feel.
Maybe i'm just a freak.
No, what you said makes sense. I too am all for "home-grown" teams, I mean in every country there are a lot of skilled & motivated players, all they need is someone to give them an opportunity.
On July 23 2011 11:01 BionicSC wrote: Fnatic/IM next? =)
Fnatic recently got Rain, they have their token Korean. Mousesports still need theirs, so perhaps IM-Mouz?
IM and Startale have bunch of sponsors. Don't think they need a partnership.
HoSeo, though, now THAT's a team where a foreign team should want to partner with. Whatever that coach is doing, he has a team full of amazing players with great potential.
Yeah, I hope HoSeo gets something going.
I think CCM and ZeNEX might possibly make a deal. Several months ago there was an announcement having to do with xiaOt going over to Korea and staying with ZeNEX. Dunno if it went through, though. I do know that xiaOt has said that once he gets to Korea and if he brings back results, he'll try to set something up with one of the Korean teams. Then again, this was back when xiaOt was on Nirvana, and I don't know if CCM's going for the same thing.
On July 23 2011 10:35 Waxangel wrote: DRG FIGHTING!!!!!!
Oh, here's a semi article I had written up before I stopped trying to make it any good:
Did the EG's pursuit of TSL's Puma close the gates for many Koreans? As much as EG's Alex Garfield espoused the the need for Korea to open itself up to the international way of ESPORTS business, he may very well have become a detriment to his own cause.
Following the the news of Puma's enticement by a foreign team, Korea's two major SC II media sites PlayXP and ThisIsGame wasted no time publishing editorials calling for the hasty implementation of protectionary measures from the Starcraft II Conference (S2Con) of Korea. In fact, ThisIsGame reported that GomTV and S2Con had already felt the need the create protectionary measures before the EG-TSL ordeal went down. If that were not enough, S2Con's own columnist also chipped in with his opinion, brutally criticizing his own organization for their failure to protect the interests of Korean teams and players in this regard.
That's not to say that we won't see more deals like that between MVP and Complexity or oGs and SK. In those deals, the original Korean team retains effective 'ownership' of the player while the foreign company is merely subsidizing his overseas activities.
But the line seems to be drawn at Korean players making complete moves to foreign teams, and it may soon become a very difficult one to cross.
I think a great deal of this comes down to mere speculation, I expect with a sudden jump to stricter contracts a great deal of players are going to take a long, careful look at their options when it comes to playing Starcraft 2 professionally. This could probably go one of three ways.
1. The players and teams agree, perhaps totally or on a vast majority of terms when it comes to the adoption of new, tighter contracts. (this seems rather unlikely, considering that teams and players rarely get along so swimmingly, as evidenced by the genesis of KESPA in Sc1.)
2. The players decide to consolidate and agree to meet with team ownership and decide on rules that take into account the interests of both sides, as opposed to this strange view that team management is somehow the authority on all player considerations. (This seems likely, especially considering the already established players association headed by Junwi)
3. High profile players, ones who have the ability to make money anywhere, will scoff at tighter restrictions, potentially stagnant salaries and lockdows and seek out teams willing to shell out bigger bucks, more travel, etc. (Who knows? I could definitely see players with explosive recent developments of talent, see the entire HoSeo team haha, decide to strike out on their own so to speak.)
In the end, I really think it does the scene a disservice to be so explicitly negative about everything, AG acted as an American business should, the Koreans are reacting in an appropriate manner, and in the end these conflicts will boil down to mere growing pains as the Sc2 scene truly becomes global.
True, I may be being too negative. But I do need to point out that Korean progamers have proven to be one the weakest, poorly organized groups in the history of labor :o
As in, they're poor teenagers who haven't had much time to pursue interests outside of gaming. They're pretty much tailor-made to be exploited by people with money.
Hehe, you ironically vindicate the approach that EG's Alex was saying they were taking. The players are, likely, worth more than the team system would generally allow for in a Korean set. This is going to be a huge cause of tension, as there will just be more money outside of Korea.
And, I think we're all forgetting the Prime clan & World Elite (WE) partnership in all of this. Not that I know the details, but they've had a pretty long one.
On July 23 2011 11:01 Otolia wrote: Oh that's great, but I'm sorry to inform you that it won't make the NA scene any better.
Typical European bashing on America for no reason.
I strongly belive that all the sc2 scenes will benefit from more interaction between the players on a long term basis.
As players will be faceing off even more than now, against top tier Korean players and vice versa. Im so looking forward to this evelution of the proscene. So many great games to come!
On July 23 2011 11:01 BionicSC wrote: Fnatic/IM next? =)
Fnatic recently got Rain, they have their token Korean. Mousesports still need theirs, so perhaps IM-Mouz?
IM and Startale have bunch of sponsors. Don't think they need a partnership.
HoSeo, though, now THAT's a team where a foreign team should want to partner with. Whatever that coach is doing, he has a team full of amazing players with great potential.
Hoseo have gone from a joke to koreas most promising team.
On July 23 2011 11:16 Taf the Ghost wrote: And, I think we're all forgetting the Prime clan & World Elite (WE) partnership in all of this. Not that I know the details, but they've had a pretty long one.
Unfortunately not many people know much about the Chinese scene. Some people don't even consider the Chinese scene part of the foreigner scene oddly enough...
On July 23 2011 11:01 BionicSC wrote: Fnatic/IM next? =)
Fnatic recently got Rain, they have their token Korean. Mousesports still need theirs, so perhaps IM-Mouz?
IM and Startale have bunch of sponsors. Don't think they need a partnership.
HoSeo, though, now THAT's a team where a foreign team should want to partner with. Whatever that coach is doing, he has a team full of amazing players with great potential.
Hoseo have gone from a joke to koreas most promising team.
Actually since they're being sponsored by an University, how would partnerships with the university work in terms of process and deals? The more I think of it, the more I'm not entirely sure how their team works.
Given Complexities and EG's history, and how EG exec basically put down these sorts of deals plus how team MVP specially mentioned complexities respectful approach....this seems kinda funny.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
Players cannot grow and develop without financial and travel support. Teams allow them to do this.
Personally, I'm not a fan of these joint ventures as I much rather prefer teams to just merge or something so as to keep the identity of the team consistent. But I think it's the start of potential partnerships into the future, so who knows.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
And this allows great players like DRG to play foreign events
I really do not like these 'partnerships.' I wish the foreign teams would just strive to create their own teams with their own players with their own prohouses. Create more opportunities for players to live the dream not shrink the pool of sponsorships and money by renting a few Koreans.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
But these joint ventures make it possible for your favourite korean players to play in more tournaments than before. It also makes it possible for your favourite foreign players to showcase their stuff against the best players possible, which will improve their skill.
Good reason to care about these joint ventures it seems
On July 23 2011 11:24 Aurdon wrote: I really do not like these 'partnerships.' I wish the foreign teams would just strive to create their own teams with their own players with their own prohouses. Create more opportunities for players to live the dream not shrink the pool of sponsorships and money by renting a few Koreans.
Uh, "living the dream" is for foreigners to be able to go to Korea and train there. So your point is moot.
My mind is trying to comprehend and work out the amount of news in eSports recently. Great news for MVP, and great news for future Western tournaments.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
But these joint ventures make it possible for your favourite korean players to play in more tournaments than before. It also makes it possible for your favourite foreign players to showcase their stuff against the best players possible, which will improve their skill.
Good reason to care about these joint ventures it seems
And if they have a decent amount of success, it's possible more sponsorships will come to them, which is great for everybody involved.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
And this allows great players like DRG to play foreign events
No it allows for Koreans to remain dominant by spending money on flying them all around world instead of the foreign teams to man up and create their own teams with their own players and their own teamhouses and training regimens.
There might be a lot of great players in the foreign scene that haven't had the opportunity to train and grow because all the resources are being spent on Koreans.
I don't see this as coL not growing their own players. I still mainly see DRG and Genius as MVP players. Just like I see MC and Nada as oGs players. Just like MarineKing and Polt as Prime players. They're going to live their normal lives in Korea with their team, but have more financial backing and get to go to foreign tournaments. This also means if coL wants to, you know, actually grow their home grown talent, they can send them to the MVP house for a few months and have them practice with DRG, Genius, Keen, Violet, etc. This helps both teams immensely if coL takes the opportunity to send players to Korea.
Only thing I don't like is that DRG won't be wearing his awesome MVP jacket at MLG. If he wins, most of the non-GSL/Korean watchers won't get exposed to the MVP team.
On July 23 2011 11:14 nihoh wrote: These partnerships seem so meaningless to me.
being able to rely on outside foreign teams relieves a lot of pressure off of Korean teams to send their players to foreign events
Exactly. Over the next few months there will be Korean players coming to foreign tournaments, and foreign players moving to Korea to train. The financial burden is essentially halved when there is another team paying for the costs
Wow, we're finally bridging the gap between Korea and the outside world, this is really great. There might not be any foreigners anymore eventually, just players.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
And this allows great players like DRG to play foreign events
No it allows for Koreans to remain dominant by spending money on flying them all around world instead of the foreign teams to man up and create their own teams with their own players and their own teamhouses and training regimens.
There might be a lot of great players in the foreign scene that haven't had the opportunity to train and grow because all the resources are being spent on Koreans.
The rest of the world's infrastructure can't compare to Korea's. The BW success in Korea has given them a 13 year head start on the rest of the world. For coL to get better, they need to send some of their promising players to Korea to practice in the Korean infrastructure.
They're not going to get better practicing outside of Korea. Even if they made a gaming house, the infrastructure and practice partners aren't there. Having a coach, players like DRG, Keen, Genius around you and having a Korean schedule will make some of coL's players rise above a lot of the foreign competition.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
And this allows great players like DRG to play foreign events
No it allows for Koreans to remain dominant by spending money on flying them all around world instead of the foreign teams to man up and create their own teams with their own players and their own teamhouses and training regimens.
There might be a lot of great players in the foreign scene that haven't had the opportunity to train and grow because all the resources are being spent on Koreans.
Unfortunately its much to difficult to bring entire teams together in one place unless you have LOTS OF CASH.
Also, the western scene is very stagnant I'm sorry to say, its always the same players in all the tournaments, add to the fact that nearly every western tournament is invite based giving no chance for up and comers to prove themselves.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
And this allows great players like DRG to play foreign events
No it allows for Koreans to remain dominant by spending money on flying them all around world instead of the foreign teams to man up and create their own teams with their own players and their own teamhouses and training regimens.
There might be a lot of great players in the foreign scene that haven't had the opportunity to train and grow because all the resources are being spent on Koreans.
Unfortunately its much to difficult to bring entire teams together in one place unless you have LOTS OF CASH.
Also, the western scene is very stagnant I'm sorry to say, its always the same players in all the tournaments, add to the fact that nearly every western tournament is invite based giving no chance for up and comers to prove themselves.
Yeah, and when tournaments/leagues have "no namers", the community gets pissed off and complain that so and so known player deserves it more.
I find this weird, unless complexity is taking a cut of koreans who get prize money i see this being nothing but them flying out koreans to win (free?) money.
On July 23 2011 11:31 Headnoob wrote: I find this weird, unless complexity is taking a cut of koreans who get prize money i see this being nothing but them flying out koreans to win (free?) money.
They get to send their players to the MVP house to live and practice. That benefits them greatly.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
And this allows great players like DRG to play foreign events
No it allows for Koreans to remain dominant by spending money on flying them all around world instead of the foreign teams to man up and create their own teams with their own players and their own teamhouses and training regimens.
There might be a lot of great players in the foreign scene that haven't had the opportunity to train and grow because all the resources are being spent on Koreans.
Unfortunately its much to difficult to bring entire teams together in one place unless you have LOTS OF CASH.
Also, the western scene is very stagnant I'm sorry to say, its always the same players in all the tournaments, add to the fact that nearly every western tournament is invite based giving no chance for up and comers to prove themselves.
Yeah, and when tournaments/leagues have "no namers", the community gets pissed off and complain that so and so known player deserves it more.
Better yet, eschew invitationals/invite only tournaments altogether and set up qualifiers, IGN has it right, even down to the prize pools.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
And this allows great players like DRG to play foreign events
No it allows for Koreans to remain dominant by spending money on flying them all around world instead of the foreign teams to man up and create their own teams with their own players and their own teamhouses and training regimens.
There might be a lot of great players in the foreign scene that haven't had the opportunity to train and grow because all the resources are being spent on Koreans.
No offense, but there is no correlation between foreigners training and growing and diverting resources. Rarely do you see a player not attend a big event because there are enough funds. Invited players almost always accept, and when they don't it's because they are planning to attend another event.
Korean lifestyle and training regime will be attainable by foreigners through exposure. You have to see how hard Koreans train to fully understand and work at a similar level. You're thinking that over time foreigners will make their own "Korean" regimes with no help. It's been 2 years and there are only a few so-called foreign training houses and none of them come even close to the intensity of a single Korean training house.
On July 23 2011 11:18 Sina92 wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't care too much about these joint ventures? I prefer to keep track of the players individually and follow them.
And this allows great players like DRG to play foreign events
No it allows for Koreans to remain dominant by spending money on flying them all around world instead of the foreign teams to man up and create their own teams with their own players and their own teamhouses and training regimens.
There might be a lot of great players in the foreign scene that haven't had the opportunity to train and grow because all the resources are being spent on Koreans.
Those great players in the foreign scene don't need to join a well known team you know. Look at korea, constantly new teams from new players who suddenly suprisse everyone. With the whole competition vs BW in korea you would think foreigners actually have more rescources to start their own team and practice.
On July 23 2011 11:31 Headnoob wrote: I find this weird, unless complexity is taking a cut of koreans who get prize money i see this being nothing but them flying out koreans to win (free?) money.
They get to send their players to the MVP house to live and practice. That benefits them greatly.
yup. also if drg wins (which he will), he brings the team exposure and a bigger fan base which equal lots of moolah. for teams like this, it is all about the exposure.
On July 23 2011 11:31 Headnoob wrote: I find this weird, unless complexity is taking a cut of koreans who get prize money i see this being nothing but them flying out koreans to win (free?) money.
complexity has never, and will never, take cut of prize money from their players
Why are sponsor dollars being spent this way? Why is it not being spent on the infrastructure to grow teams in the west? Why are prohouses and proteams not being trained in the Korean style?
Koreans are not born to this high level of skill. They are trained this way. Everyone acknowledges that they not only put in more hours, but they focus and regiment their training in such a way to get the most out of each hour.
These kinds of super players can be created in Europe and the United States. There are more tournaments, more players, more dollars. The only problem is that we have not taken the time to create the systems to train up the ones with innate talent and desire to be great.
Look at how much Huk has grown since he moved to Korea. He was put in that system and has flourished. Imagine if the top five teams in the west steadily cultivated that style of training. In the next few years, we would start to see the west catch up.
However, greedy teams want results now so they just borrow players instead of taking the long investment of growing eSports talent in the west.
Nice to see more bridges being built between the Korean and the International scene. I'm still not sure whether this kind of deal is really worth the effort or not but if it means seeing more of these players in non-korean tournaments, I guess I can't complain.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
congratulations to complexity... little by little gaining strenght from their old glory days in cs 1.6... this is definitely something positive to the lackluster coL sc2 roster!
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
sk players cant go to korea to train
Does SK even have a western team?
not anymore!
SK's deal is nothing like this one. theyre basically renting players who come for foreign competitions, whereas this col-MVP one sounds more like a collaboration between two ACTUAL teams (*hint SK)
wow this is really sick. From what I understand is preety similar to the oGs-TL partnership. I must say Genius has been my favorite player since GSL season 2/Blizzcon. GL to all :D
good news, cant wait to see DRG on more International event, and hopefully some of the Root guys on GSL/GSTL
Kiwikaki all kill IM ? it CAN happen :D
a bit sad for AG though, now the only Korean player he can 'talk' to at MLG is only IMMvp since Choya is FXO, DongRaeGu is now Col.MVP and I dont think even he have the balls to 'talk' to the SlayerS guys with BoxerR and Jessica there
well there's always next MLG/NASL for him to 'scout talents'
On July 23 2011 11:39 Aurdon wrote: Why are sponsor dollars being spent this way? Why is it not being spent on the infrastructure to grow teams in the west? Why are prohouses and proteams not being trained in the Korean style?
Koreans are not born to this high level of skill. They are trained this way. Everyone acknowledges that they not only put in more hours, but they focus and regiment their training in such a way to get the most out of each hour.
These kinds of super players can be created in Europe and the United States. There are more tournaments, more players, more dollars. The only problem is that we have not taken the time to create the systems to train up the ones with innate talent and desire to be great.
Look at how much Huk has grown since he moved to Korea. He was put in that system and has flourished. Imagine if the top five teams in the west steadily cultivated that style of training. In the next few years, we would start to see the west catch up.
However, greedy teams want results now so they just borrow players instead of taking the long investment of growing eSports talent in the west.
Actually, this seems to be mutually beneficial for both MVP and all of coL.
compLexity players who wish to train in Korea will be hosted at the MVP House for training purposes.
The coL-MVP partnership seems to allow a very similar situation to the TL-oGs partnership by allowing coL players to live with and train with Korean MVP players, similar to how Huk and other TL players trained with the oGs dudes.
Having non-Korean coL players be allowed to live with and train with their MVP colleagues seems to be a good, less-expensive alternative to spending money on team houses and training infrastructure outside of Korea.
Implanting players into the Korean system seems to be a very efficient way of creating non-Korean "super players." We saw this in the improvement that all the Liquid players got from their stays in Korea, especially that of Huk. I expect FXO players to start doing much better in tournaments now that they've experienced Korean-esque training and laddering.
Until more money comes into the scene, it may be much more efficient to create mutually beneficial partnerships with Korean teams so that Western players can utilize their training infrastructure instead of creating a Western infrastructure from scratch.
On July 23 2011 11:50 sandyph wrote: good news, cant wait to see DRG on more International event, and hopefully some of the Root guys on GSL/GSTL
Kiwikaki all kill IM ? it CAN happen :D
a bit sad for AG though, now the only Korean player he can 'talk' to at MLG is only IMMvp since Choya is FXO, DongRaeGu is now Col.MVP and I dont think even he have the balls to 'talk' to the SlayerS guys with BoxerR and Jessica there
well there's always next MLG/NASL for him to 'scout talents'
On July 23 2011 11:49 Clbull wrote: Does this mean that we could potentially see CatZ, Drewbie and CrunCher in the next GSTL playing for the MVP team?
At the booths, maybe. Playing, not until the next season of GSTL, more than likely.
This partnership only is different from the SK one *if* complexity's players start heading to Korea. If they don't actually send anyone to Korea to train, then it's just the same as the SK deal.
On July 23 2011 11:52 aphorism wrote: Wow, so many foreign-korean partnerships lately. It seems like the scenes are getting closer and closer together, which is just fantastic.
On July 23 2011 11:50 sandyph wrote: good news, cant wait to see DRG on more International event, and hopefully some of the Root guys on GSL/GSTL
Kiwikaki all kill IM ? it CAN happen :D
a bit sad for AG though, now the only Korean player he can 'talk' to at MLG is only IMMvp since Choya is FXO, DongRaeGu is now Col.MVP and I dont think even he have the balls to 'talk' to the SlayerS guys with BoxerR and Jessica there
well there's always next MLG/NASL for him to 'scout talents'
On July 23 2011 11:50 sandyph wrote: good news, cant wait to see DRG on more International event, and hopefully some of the Root guys on GSL/GSTL
Kiwikaki all kill IM ? it CAN happen :D
a bit sad for AG though, now the only Korean player he can 'talk' to at MLG is only IMMvp since Choya is FXO, DongRaeGu is now Col.MVP and I dont think even he have the balls to 'talk' to the SlayerS guys with BoxerR and Jessica there
well there's always next MLG/NASL for him to 'scout talents'
AG?
Alex Garfield, EG's Executive Director.
And also the funniest, sexiest and most talented man in all of SC community.
Another example of a company respectfully approaching the management of a korean team and hashing out a deal.
EG could learn alot from these other teams who are respecting the korean culture and approaching these korean teams in a very humble way. Im almost positive that neither DRG or Genius have contracts with MVP(its a fairly new team and i dont beleive they have many if any sponsors and surely no salaries)
These korean teams seem very willing to work with the foreign community and had EG approached Mr Lee im sure something could have been worked out without anyone being offended and no backlash from the community, im offended by Alex Garfields stance that he did nothing wrong.
Congratulations are in order for complexity this was a great move on their part and i think this approach to aquire korean players is much much more realistic and far better for the team on both sides as a whole.
Complexity basically gets access to a korean pro gaming house for its players to train at now, that is priceless. The korean players they aquired will still thrive just as they have been in the environment that made them great players in the first place. Having a deal like EG's doesnt make sense for puma on anything other than a financial level, Alex said they are providing puma with a korean environment he can excel in , but honestly i dont see what they could be doing that would be just as good or better than training in a korea pro gaming house.
All I can think is SC2Con needs to organize KesPA rules as fast as possible. Yesterday there was outrage, today there is celebration, tomorrow will be chaotic. Waxangel started this thought and I''ll extend it past him-
SC2 players on the whole are young and easily exploitable. Big money teams are buying talent and recognition as of late. This is not a bad thing overall, it happens in every sport. However with an increase in money the necessity of rules and contracts to protect the players becomes more important.
I will cheer for MVP. I will hope for all players to do well under the increasing amount of mergers with financial powerhouse teams.
very passionate about eSports good to see him and coL back making some moves, more strong American teams for the EU - NA rivalry is always fun specially when EU owns xD
gl coL hope you become strong competetitor once again.
Congratulations for both teams. Sorry Tyler, sounds like DRG is coming to everything. I wonder who will go to Korea to train in the MVP house. Will it be people who get code A from MLG or do you think some of the players will go on their own?
On July 23 2011 11:59 Skipton wrote: Congrats to both Complexity and MVP. Doing business the right way.
...was anyone doing business the wrong way? Pretty sure all activity has been legit so far.
Legally yes, ethically, people have different opinions. Let's not derail this thread.
Well when people use language like that, they're trying to be cute about making a statement without making one directly.
Grats to col though, hopefully they can start signing Korean players as full time team members to get a greater presence in Korea as well.
At the end of the day nobody gives a shit if your organization thinks they did business the right way but the korean teams don't agree, they can block you or make it difficult to deal with them in the future no matter how righteous you think what you did was. Doing business "the right way" means both sides of an agreement thinking it was done right, not just one, and this is definitely a case of doing business the right way. Gratz to Complexity!
On July 23 2011 11:01 BionicSC wrote: Fnatic/IM next? =)
Fnatic recently got Rain, they have their token Korean. Mousesports still need theirs, so perhaps IM-Mouz?
IM and Startale have bunch of sponsors. Don't think they need a partnership.
HoSeo, though, now THAT's a team where a foreign team should want to partner with. Whatever that coach is doing, he has a team full of amazing players with great potential.
Hoseo is part of a school, though, isn't it? Their "team house" is in the school I believe. that's the impression I got when Artosis went there. It would be kind of hard to do a partnership with players who don't go to school there
On July 23 2011 11:59 Skipton wrote: Congrats to both Complexity and MVP. Doing business the right way.
...was anyone doing business the wrong way? Pretty sure all activity has been legit so far.
Legally yes, ethically, people have different opinions. Let's not derail this thread.
Well when people use language like that, they're trying to be cute about making a statement without making one directly.
Grats to col though, hopefully they can start signing Korean players as full time team members to get a greater presence in Korea as well.
At the end of the day nobody gives a shit if your organization thinks they did business the right way but the korean teams don't agree, they can block you or make it difficult to deal with them in the future no matter how righteous you think what you did was. Doing business "the right way" means both sides of an agreement thinking it was done right, not just one, and this is definitely a case of doing business the right way. Gratz to Complexity!
There was no way to "do it right" with puma, Lee would have been raging regardless and he just found a way to slander by pulling the cultural insensitive card.
On topic ; hope to see more MVP players a foreign tourneys.
I think mouz is the only major team that doens't have any affiliation with a Korean team. This is becoming an "arms race" (courtesy of hot bid). Grab IM, NSHS, ST and prime while their still hot!
On July 23 2011 11:59 Probe1 wrote: All I can think is SC2Con needs to organize KesPA rules as fast as possible. Yesterday there was outrage, today there is celebration, tomorrow will be chaotic. Waxangel started this thought and I''ll extend it past him-
SC2 players on the whole are young and easily exploitable. Big money teams are buying talent and recognition as of late. This is not a bad thing overall, it happens in every sport. However with an increase in money the necessity of rules and contracts to protect the players becomes more important.
I will cheer for MVP. I will hope for all players to do well under the increasing amount of mergers with financial powerhouse teams.
SC Hwaiting.
So you want players to be locked in to contracts that are heavily unfair, live in conditions that most people would consider horrible and be forced to train 12 hours a day?
If SC2 in Korea goes the Kespa route, you can say goodbye to foreigners popping over to compete in GSL, bye to the MLG partnership and bye to Koreans playing in foreign tourneys. If they make it so foreign teams can't sign Korean players or that by doing so that player can't compete in GSL then they are only hurting their scene.
if they lock out our teams from getting Korean players then we should return the favour and lock out Korean players from western tourneys and allow our homegrown players to have a free for all for all the lovely dollars on offer at tourneys.
If western teams all got together and started a union and threw their weight around so that Korean teams couldn't take their players (not that Koean teams really want foreigners), everyone would go ape shit, but its ok for Koreans to do it? The SC2 scene in Korea has very little money in it, much like the western BW scene had little money in it..... they should be thankful for foreign dollars coming to their players because they can't provide it for their players.
Looking forward to seeing both of these guys at foreign events, not only because DRG is Doctor Gee, but because they both have real personalities, and we want to see genius's ceremonies live.
On July 23 2011 12:12 EnderCraft wrote: I think mouz is the only major team that doens't have any affiliation with a Korean team. This is becoming an "arms race" (courtesy of hot bid). Grab IM, NSHS, ST and prime while their still hot!
On July 23 2011 11:59 benjammin wrote: are all these partnerships and player recruiting a sign of a weak korean SC2 economy?
It's more a sign that MLG got 22+ million viewers for Columbus, which is approaching half of the total population of South Korea. The market for SC2 play is simply global, which means that's where the money will be.
lots of foreign teams allying with korean teams i like it alot makes me feel comfortable with the western starcraft 2 scene and that we are here to stay.
ESFI caught up with Complexity COO (Chief Operating Officer) Jason Bass to talk about the MVP team partnership, how quickly it came together, and what the future is for complexity.sc2:
When did coL start thinking about this deal? It's similar to what SK did with MC and NaDa, but presumably you guys worked on this before those announcements were public, or was it a reaction to this and other foreign teams bringing in Koreans?
I have to give credit to SK Gaming and FXO in opening our eyes to this possibility. This deal occurred at a fairly fast pace. Once the SK-oGs announcement was made, we began looking at our options. Just a couple of days ago, we set our sights on DRG specifically and MVP. We opened a dialog with Choi at MVP yesterday and had a full day meeting today to hammer out all of the details.
We have had interest in doing a deal with Korean players for quite some time but were learning our way before making a move.
For people who don't like the "partnership" model that is happening you have to look at it like this. Many Korean teams have infrastructure but no funds. Many western teams have funds but no infrastructure. These kinds of deals make 100% perfect sense. It makes far less sense to take the players out of their current infrastructure and having to create your own for them.
On July 23 2011 12:12 EnderCraft wrote: I think mouz is the only major team that doens't have any affiliation with a Korean team. This is becoming an "arms race" (courtesy of hot bid). Grab IM, NSHS, ST and prime while their still hot!
mouz, fnatic, EG all lack any real Korean partnership. Puma was more of an individual pickup.
Edit; to add to it people shouldn't forget about zenex if they are looking for a steal and good potential that IMO are up there with the last of the teams mentioned.
On July 23 2011 12:19 Duravi wrote: For people who don't like the "partnership" model that is happening you have to look at it like this. Many Korean teams have infrastructure but no funds. Many western teams have funds but no infrastructure. These kinds of deals make 100% perfect sense. It makes far less sense to take the players out of their current infrastructure and having to create your own for them.
Well put. Both sides offer what the other needs. Together they should raise the overall quality of global tournaments and play. I don't see why people should be disapproving of recent actions by many teams partnering up
holy shit wow, I'm all for more funding for Korean teams, guess we'll shed more partnership/signings out of the woodwork before Anaheim, can't wait to see what's next
On July 23 2011 12:19 sang wrote: ESFI caught up with Complexity COO (Chief Operating Officer) Jason Bass to talk about the MVP team partnership, how quickly it came together, and what the future is for complexity.sc2:
When did coL start thinking about this deal? It's similar to what SK did with MC and NaDa, but presumably you guys worked on this before those announcements were public, or was it a reaction to this and other foreign teams bringing in Koreans?
I have to give credit to SK Gaming and FXO in opening our eyes to this possibility. This deal occurred at a fairly fast pace. Once the SK-oGs announcement was made, we began looking at our options. Just a couple of days ago, we set our sights on DRG specifically and MVP. We opened a dialog with Choi at MVP yesterday and had a full day meeting today to hammer out all of the details.
We have had interest in doing a deal with Korean players for quite some time but were learning our way before making a move.
Can't help but think EG should have something like this. Being able to send players to train in Korea would be much more valuable than having 1 korean player for your NA/EU players to practice with.
Makes you wonder what the next big deal is going to be, who will be the next Western team to partner up with a Korean team, or will it be the same teams already involved adding more players to their stables.
I think HoSeo would be a great partner for a foreign team with deep pockets, but HoSeo is actually sponsored by an university in Korea. No idea how that would work with a university being the head of a team.
Yay more DongRaeGu. I don't even play Zerg but there's something about that guy that makes him so much fun to watch (even if he did screw my fantasy team over completely...)
hmmmm I don't know why, but I have a bad feeling about all these korean-foreigner alliances. Somehow it speaks about the health of SC2 in korea. I just hope SC2 doesn't die in Korea. If it does, I doubt it can live based only on foreigner events, at least not in a way comparable to what BW is.
I still don't agree with Alex Garfield's (EG's) logic on the negatives of these arrangements outweighing the benefits. I think a situation like this is pretty win-win, particularly if the players involved win some foreign tournaments (resulting in more prize money to players, more exposure for the sponsor-team to sponsor funding generation).
Things are happening too quick the last 2 weeks or so, and I don't know is it a good thing or not, it feels like everyone is trying to react because other organisation have, so they don't get left out picking the best players possible. This might also mean that they have not had enough time to think about everything which could go wrong etc.
On July 23 2011 12:52 mordk wrote: hmmmm I don't know why, but I have a bad feeling about all these korean-foreigner alliances. Somehow it speaks about the health of SC2 in korea. I just hope SC2 doesn't die in Korea. If it does, I doubt it can live based only on foreigner events, at least not in a way comparable to what BW is.
Maybe. Or maybe it is exactly what KR needs in order to overcome the current situation. I really hope the recent moves are a sign of finding a "3rd way"
The players will also be available to join compLexity’s StarCraft 2 division during online team play. compLexity players who wish to train in Korea will be hosted at the MVP House for training purposes.
I really hope somebody from Complexity will take the korean training offer.
this is awesome, hope to see more korean teams and foreign teams join forces so we can have more koreans compete in western tournys and more westerners compete in gsl/gstl
wow. there's some crazy news in esports everyday it seems... lately.
looks like the foreign scene is really showing it's overwhelming power over koreans. Or maybe they all just wanna be more like oGs-TL xD
i really like how they handle this. Foreign teams with money merging. Getting better players, Connecting the foreigns and koreans together. Foreigners reaping the talent benefits and Koreans reaping the money rewards.
Well this is going to do wonders for coL... as I never thought they were any good. Even though I'm not a fan of coL (I hate them haha) I'm glad to see a Korea+Foreign partnership. Great job.
On July 23 2011 13:11 TechnoSchaman wrote: Minigun needs to get over fear of planes, fly to Korea, train for like a week, and hell be cleaning up NA and EU tournaments EZZZZZZZ
CoL Roster: Antimage FireZerg rsvp Ryan Ryze Steak CrunCher CatZ Drewbie Minigun TriMaster
I agree with you on Minigun, but who else has the potential to become amazing in Korea? Cruncher would without a doubt be a dark horse.
The atmosphere at the old root gamimng house was very laid back so I am unsure of whether CatZ or Drewbie would do well in a very stuctured enviroment.
I have no idea who rsvp or Trimaster are in person, since they are extremely low profile. Based on ladder rankings, they have potential.
On July 23 2011 13:27 DisaFear wrote: Holy, these past few days have been filled with foreigners+Koreans, what is happening???!?!
People realized Koreans are better based on past tournament performances and now they want to put their tag before said Koreans' names. Having a player on your team winning a major tourney helps greatly with sponsorships and no one really thinks NA/EU players have a good chance of winning major tourneys anymore with the 5-10 Koreans coming to every one.
I think this is really good for the flagging Kr SC2 scene, financial support to send players to foreign events, especially those who are talented but just unable to get past the Code A qualifiers. While the foreign team gets a top player as well as access into the Kr scene and player pool.
On July 23 2011 11:59 Skipton wrote: Congrats to both Complexity and MVP. Doing business the right way.
...was anyone doing business the wrong way? Pretty sure all activity has been legit so far.
Legally yes, ethically, people have different opinions. Let's not derail this thread.
Well when people use language like that, they're trying to be cute about making a statement without making one directly.
Grats to col though, hopefully they can start signing Korean players as full time team members to get a greater presence in Korea as well.
At the end of the day nobody gives a shit if your organization thinks they did business the right way but the korean teams don't agree, they can block you or make it difficult to deal with them in the future no matter how righteous you think what you did was. Doing business "the right way" means both sides of an agreement thinking it was done right, not just one, and this is definitely a case of doing business the right way. Gratz to Complexity!
There was no way to "do it right" with puma, Lee would have been raging regardless and he just found a way to slander by pulling the cultural insensitive card.
On topic ; hope to see more MVP players a foreign tourneys.
I dont think so at all, if pumas wishes were to leave and puma as well as EG had contacted Mr lee within a short period of time, and it wasnt just puma acting distraught for 3-4 days afraid to tell his coach until he was asked what was wrong, it would be a much much different story i beleive. If there was some small compensation and it was puma's wishes to leave what would mr lee have to complain about? He wouldnt he is a respectable man who has been in the business a long time and he probably has never encountered a "hostile" takeover of a player (sure he wasnt on a contract but he WAS part of the team and money was certainly what enticed him nothing more) Mr lee wasnt included in the transition of HIS player (not legally i geuss) from one team to another and most people (especially in korea) find this strange and ethically questionable.
I really like how other foreign teams are approaching their interest in korean players though, it seems like a much better way to go about it and seems much more benificial for the player overall. Its not like genius or DRG are distraught in anyway about this and they are being congratulated not critisized by both communities there is a reason for that. The DRG and Genius also get to keep their practice environments that made them such great players in the first place, puma does not.
On July 23 2011 13:41 CajunMan wrote: Catz to Korea would be so Ironic
What would be the purpose of catz in Korea? Comedic relief?
You could have said that about a lot of NA players that were completely unimpressive compared to Koreans before they got there, progression is a process.
what about the other MvP players? its totally weird to sponsor only 2 players out of the entire team. I hope the entire MvP clan and all its players will enjoy this co-sponsorship.
its not really a team when 2 are sponsored by coL and the rest are not.
I guess this is cool. I am not really a col. fan, but I am a DRG fan. I would love to see some of the coL. players go and train in Korea though. There are some with a lot of potential.
Is this like the oGs/SK kind of partnership thing? If so, seems pretty cool. I wonder if any of the Col. members can take advantage of this to go to Korea.
On July 23 2011 13:49 bovi wrote: what about the other MvP players? its totally weird to sponsor only 2 players out of the entire team. I hope the entire MvP clan and all its players will enjoy this co-sponsorship.
its not really a team when 2 are sponsored by coL and the rest are not.
MvP fighting!
It says they are starting out with these 2 players, it wouldnt make sense financially at all for complexity to agree to fly the whole freaking team out to foreign events.
Awesome news, keep up the good work Complexity, been a fan of the team since the CS days, and now with this and the ROOT acquisition definetly making me a fan your SC2 team as well.
yet another big name in esports walks the easy way. borrow players, attach their logo and try to sell any accomplishments 'as their own'. mym next?
don't get me wrong,. it's great to see skilled players in on-/offline tournaments outside of korea. but you have to expect more from such teams as col/sk.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
Wow this is awesome, coL players are welcome to train int he MVP house in korea if they go to korea, and coL pays for the international flights for MVP. Nice deal, looking forward to this!
This has been a ridiculously huge week for Korean teams & partnerships...Perhaps it has to do with the fact that there's a lot of money on the outside and everyone's learning a little bit better on how to tap into the cash?
I mean, Good players + teams located solely in Korea vs. Teams that tend to perform less well w/ more worldwide access..
On July 23 2011 14:14 Cep wrote: yet another big name in esports walks the easy way. borrow players, attach their logo and try to sell any accomplishments 'as their own'. mym next?
don't get me wrong,. it's great to see skilled players in on-/offline tournaments outside of korea. but you have to expect more from such teams as col/sk.
Ok, so you expect them to develop the infrastructure for players they buy out instantly? Please tell me what is Puma's infrastructure for practice atm? Why in the hell would you not use the infrastructure that is already in place?
Great news for complexity and MVP. Unlike the SK-OGS deal, which was the first of this kind, here complexit actually has something to gain in having their players somewhere to live should they ever go to korea or just bootcamp for the sake of training. Having access to a great protoss player like Genius and one of if not the best zerg in the world is nothing to scoff at. Seeing how Complexity has their own players they actually have alot more to gain form this kind of deal than SK in its current form.
Great work and cant wait to see more of MVP fighting overseas, congrats to both parties!
My 2 favorite teams just partnered. I think my head just exploded. On a serious not though, This is huge news. I wonder who will go to Korea? I would love to see Stalife or FireZerg head over.
Has Catz given an opinion on this? Him being on Complexity and being the most vocal about keeping Koreans out of the foreign scene is absolutely hilarious to me. I really, really, really want to hear what he has to say about this.
On July 23 2011 14:41 Mohdoo wrote: Has Catz given an opinion on this? Him being on Complexity and being the most vocal about keeping Koreans out of the foreign scene is absolutely hilarious to me. I really, really, really want to hear what he has to say about this.
I agree. I, too, wonder what Catz' take on this is.
This is just like the SK deal. This is a joke deal. They're not actually Complexity players. This doesn't do anything for spreading the wealth among the talent pool.
If you sign them then MVP has to sign new players. Or you yourself sign new players. This joint deal fluff does nothing. Sad that this will be met with mindless praise while Puma's deal gets trashed.
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind and will witness joint promotions and cooperation on a global level.
definitely not the first of it's kind, they need to learn some sc2 history. Fou and FXO merger? and that ogs merger for when ogs MC and nada go abroad. Anyways, I'm excited that DRG got picked up by coL, which means we will see him a lot more.
It's very similar to other deals, for sure. However, the way it's structured is pretty unique. I *believe* it's the first of its kind but I could be wrong. Props and respect to those who have already done similar things.
Isn't this exactly the same as the SK-OGS deal?
MC and Nada stay OGS in Korea, SK pays for their flights accomodation etc to international tournements where they will be wearing a SK outfit.
exactly what I'm saying. very cool though :D
No, it's not exactly the same. First of all, SK no longer has a SC2 team at all to speak of. They've just agreed to pay for NaDa and MC to attend foreign tournaments under the SK name as well as oGs. The FXO-fOu merger is just that, a merger. FXO is absorbing fOu under its umbrella, basically, while letting the old fOu manage its gaming affairs under its coach and leadership. Everyone in FXO and fOu will play under the FXO name as it is the parent organization.
In this case, coL is entering into a partnership with MVP to sponsor DRG and Genius in foreign tournaments representing coL, like the SK-oGs deal, but also to let coL players go to Korea to train, practice, and compete under the MVP banner. This second part is sort of what TL has with oGs, but the coL-MVP deal is much stronger. It is not a merger like FXO-fOu as MVP will still be independently operated and managed. No other arrangement is exactly like the coL-MVP deal to date.
On July 23 2011 14:51 wats0n wrote: This is just like the SK deal. This is a joke deal. They're not actually Complexity players. This doesn't do anything for spreading the wealth among the talent pool.
If you sign them then MVP has to sign new players. Or you yourself sign new players. This joint deal fluff does nothing. Sad that this will be met with mindless praise while Puma's deal gets trashed.
Complexity helps to pay for traveling to foreign tournaments. In repayment, they get to use the players for exposure and prestige and whatnot, which is the entire reason any team ever recruits a player. Additionally, since it is clear that Korean training is better than any other, Complexity is allowed to send their players to the MVP house to train with the Koreans there. This is an extremely mutually beneficial agreement which does a lot to grow both teams. Can you clarify how this "fluff does nothing"? I get the feeling you didn't read the OP...
On July 23 2011 14:51 wats0n wrote: This is just like the SK deal. This is a joke deal. They're not actually Complexity players. This doesn't do anything for spreading the wealth among the talent pool.
If you sign them then MVP has to sign new players. Or you yourself sign new players. This joint deal fluff does nothing. Sad that this will be met with mindless praise while Puma's deal gets trashed.
Complexity helps to pay for traveling to foreign tournaments. In repayment, they get to use the players for exposure and prestige and whatnot, which is the entire reason any team ever recruits a player. Additionally, since it is clear that Korean training is better than any other, Complexity is allowed to send their players to the MVP house to train with the Koreans there. This is an extremely mutually beneficial agreement which does a lot to grow both teams. Can you clarify how this "fluff does nothing"? I get the feeling you didn't read the OP...
They're paying to travel players just so that they can wear their t-shirt. They're still MVP team and not complexity. They could instead sign players and travel them and thereby grow the salaried player base. This is just paying to sponsor players. There is in fact a difference.
Who cares what CatZ thinks. He is barely a pro. He doesn't want to compete with the best players and he thinks that koreans are ruining western esports. Who cares what he thinks.
On July 23 2011 14:30 Duravi wrote: Ok, so you expect them to develop the infrastructure for players they buy out instantly? Please tell me what is Puma's infrastructure for practice atm? Why in the hell would you not use the infrastructure that is already in place?
you don't get the point. they bought no player, they borrowed them. the players still train in korea with their team and just represent col/sk in foreign tournaments. to me that's just a half-hearted attempt to get a foot in the sc2 pro scene.
you really think the likes of col/sk lack of infrastructure to give their players an esports worthy environment?
and puma switched from tsl to eg. that's not comparable.
The proper form of player movement is for Koreans to start signing their star players and then selling their contracts to foreign teams for buyouts and then re-investing that money into salarying their current and their new players. Thereby salaries are growing, people are being compensated for their work, and the global sport is progressing.
Deals like this don't actually help Korean sports. MVP isn't going to go out and give a bunch of kids deals in response to this. This just eases the financial burden and pressure of having to travel their current players and lets them maintain the status quo where everyone is making jack shit. It's poor business, but whatever. I'm just a lone voice crying in the wind and nobody will even understand this.
Congratulations to both the teams. It's becoming more common to see Koreans either joining foreign teams or entering into partnerships to assist them both financially and logistically to play outside of Korea. I think it's telling of two things.
1. That Korean SC2 teams are realising how lucarative and important the international scene is becoming to their players and that they want to be a part of it. It's a growing trend towards a truly international SC2 stage.
2. SC2 in Korea isn't as popular as it is outside of the country and the lack of funding to a lot of teams is beginning to show. We've seen (especially in the last couple of weeks) a lot of Korean teams making very drastic moves.
I feel like both SK and Complexity get these deals with very little investment unless they pay some good size salaries to the players. They get some of the very best players in the world which they can claim to be their players when talking to sponsors, in return for paying travel expenses, almost too good to be true from the organizations perspective imo.
I like EG's acquisition of Puma better than these deals, even though EG could have handled the transfer smoother. These Koreans are alot better than any foreigner and they deserve a good salary because of that imo. Judging from information about the Korean SC2 scene recently they aren't used to getting much from their teams so they can probably be talked into accepting worse deals than what they deserve.
It's good that they get to come to foreign events and hopefully they will get some better terms soon.
On July 23 2011 15:12 wats0n wrote: The proper form of player movement is for Koreans to start signing their star players and then selling their contracts to foreign teams for buyouts and then re-investing that money into salarying their current and their new players. Thereby salaries are growing, people are being compensated for their work, and the global sport is progressing.
Deals like this don't actually help Korean sports. MVP isn't going to go out and give a bunch of kids deals in response to this. This just eases the financial burden and pressure of having to travel their current players and lets them maintain the status quo where everyone is making jack shit. It's poor business, but whatever. I'm just a lone voice crying in the wind and nobody will even understand this.
Man, that is one touching sentence. Seriously though, I don't understand how you don't see the good in this. If complexity were to simply buy DRG and genius then that would do absolutely nothing to further korean esports. Losing two of its best players could mean bad things for MVP sending them in a similar situation TSL is in now (running out of sponsors). Using this merger, complexity pays for DRG and Genius flights to foreign tournaments. If DRG or Genius were to win a tournament, then both complexity and MVP gain exposure and DRG and Genius gain profit they otherwise would have not had a chance to gain. Now MVP is letting a few coL players go to korea and practice there. We all already know the infrastructure in korea is much better then here (practice wise), so the coL roster also grows stronger. Over time coL grows, MVP grows, the SC2 scene continues to grow (hopefully) and new leagues open up, new players get hired etc. etc. Of course this is assuming everything goes perfectly.
On July 23 2011 15:12 wats0n wrote: The proper form of player movement is for Koreans to start signing their star players and then selling their contracts to foreign teams for buyouts and then re-investing that money into salarying their current and their new players. Thereby salaries are growing, people are being compensated for their work, and the global sport is progressing.
Deals like this don't actually help Korean sports. MVP isn't going to go out and give a bunch of kids deals in response to this. This just eases the financial burden and pressure of having to travel their current players and lets them maintain the status quo where everyone is making jack shit. It's poor business, but whatever. I'm just a lone voice crying in the wind and nobody will even understand this.
Man, that is one touching sentence. Seriously though, I don't understand how you don't see the good in this. If complexity were to simply buy DRG and genius then that would do absolutely nothing to further korean esports. Losing two of its best players could mean bad things for MVP sending them in a similar situation TSL is in now (running out of sponsors). Using this merger, complexity pays for DRG and Genius flights to foreign tournaments. If DRG or Genius were to win a tournament, then both complexity and MVP gain exposure and DRG and Genius gain profit they otherwise would have not had a chance to gain. Now MVP is letting a few coL players go to korea and practice there. We all already know the infrastructure in korea is much better then here (practice wise), so the coL roster also grows stronger. Over time coL grows, MVP grows, the SC2 scene continues to grow (hopefully) and new leagues open up, new players get hired etc. etc. Of course this is assuming everything goes perfectly.
You're simply wrong (not to sound condescending).
The deal is motivated by shortsightedness and short-term greed on the Korean team's part. They want to keep their players but they also need to be able to finance their travel. This deal solves that problem. However, if they would instead take buyouts on players now they could re-invest in more talent and pay all their players and pay all their finances and contract more players who could potentially be bought out for more money if they desired. This deal doesn't financially empower them to do any of that and only the airlines are the winners here.
Use hypothetical numbers here. Say Complexity buys DRG's contract (pending his agreement to salary) for $50k. MVP can then use that to sign dozens of talented kids to contracts. They can corner the market on star young players. They can re-invest in salarying players. Yes, in the beginning they are losing a great player. You're 100% sir. But a team is a business and you always have to be managing the future of the team versus the wealth and finances and strengthening the team. As long as you're getting proper value you can actually come out ahead. That's the key. And in the future they will have enough money to refuse offers should they choose.
I love the concept. The more freedom for players to represent different and even multiple entities, the better, imo. Seems like a really good idea to only share a couple of players. Congrats and glhf!
Also, I'm not so naive to think that Korean teams aren't intelligent enough to figure this out. I'm assuming that foreign teams aren't currently willing to pay what they see as fair buyouts so the Korean teams are taking the next best deal available which is these SK/Complexity t-shirt deals. I agree with the Korean teams, I'd definitely rather do these deals than take a cheap buyout. So I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they are making the proper choice.
The deal is motivated by shortsightedness and short-term greed on the Korean team's part. They want to keep their players but they also need to be able to finance their travel. This deal solves that problem. However, if they would instead take buyouts on players now they could re-invest in more talent and pay all their players and pay all their finances and contract more players who could potentially be bought out for more money if they desired. This deal doesn't financially empower them to do any of that and only the airlines are the winners here.
Use hypothetical numbers here. Say Complexity buys DRG's contract (pending his agreement to salary) for $50k. MVP can then use that to sign dozens of talented kids to contracts. They can corner the market on star young players. They can re-invest in salarying players. Yes, in the beginning they are losing a great player. You're 100% sir. But a team is a business and you always have to be managing the future of the team versus the wealth and finances and strengthening the team. As long as you're getting proper value you can actually come out ahead. That's the key. And in the future they will have enough money to refuse offers should they choose.
I think you think that korean teams have a lot more cash than they actually do. It's not like DRG and Genius are veterans, they themselves are rising stars. It would be foolish of MVP to abandon two increasingly good players. Also, I sincerely doubt coL (or anyone for that matter) would buy out the contracts for something like $50k.
Sounds great but i lol'd a little when they said it was the first deal of it's kind. Acutally it sounds exactly like the OGS/SK deal. Still sounds good for both teams though
The deal is motivated by shortsightedness and short-term greed on the Korean team's part. They want to keep their players but they also need to be able to finance their travel. This deal solves that problem. However, if they would instead take buyouts on players now they could re-invest in more talent and pay all their players and pay all their finances and contract more players who could potentially be bought out for more money if they desired. This deal doesn't financially empower them to do any of that and only the airlines are the winners here.
Use hypothetical numbers here. Say Complexity buys DRG's contract (pending his agreement to salary) for $50k. MVP can then use that to sign dozens of talented kids to contracts. They can corner the market on star young players. They can re-invest in salarying players. Yes, in the beginning they are losing a great player. You're 100% sir. But a team is a business and you always have to be managing the future of the team versus the wealth and finances and strengthening the team. As long as you're getting proper value you can actually come out ahead. That's the key. And in the future they will have enough money to refuse offers should they choose.
I think you think that korean teams have a lot more cash than they actually do. It's not like DRG and Genius are veterans, they themselves are rising stars. It would be foolish of MVP to abandon two increasingly good players. Also, I sincerely doubt coL (or anyone for that matter) would buy out the contracts for something like $50k.
If you're going to take hypothetical numbers exaggerated for effect seriously then I'm going to ignore you
Be mindful of what I said about receiving proper value so that you actually come out ahead in selling a contract.
On July 23 2011 15:42 SgtPepper wrote: Sounds great but i lol'd a little when they said it was the first deal of it's kind. Acutally it sounds exactly like the OGS/SK deal. Still sounds good for both teams though
I don't like these types of "play-for-two-teams-but-not-really" deals. It's a way for the western teams to claim victories, without actually doing any of the work, so to speak.
If you went out and bought a high level team, I'd actually like that more than simply renting Koreans for Western leagues/tournies.
On July 23 2011 15:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I don't like these types of "play-for-two-teams-but-not-really" deals. It's a way for the western teams to claim victories, without actually doing any of the work, so to speak.
If you went out and bought a high level team, I'd actually like that more than simply renting Koreans for Western leagues/tournies.
I'm with you all the way, but I believe those deals are down the road. I think right now foreign teams can't compensate Korean teams with buyouts that are fair enough for them to part with their players. What you and I want is the #1 type of transaction but for now we will have to settle for these sort of deals which are the #2. Gotta be patient. It'll happen some day.
On July 23 2011 15:12 wats0n wrote: The proper form of player movement is for Koreans to start signing their star players and then selling their contracts to foreign teams for buyouts and then re-investing that money into salarying their current and their new players. Thereby salaries are growing, people are being compensated for their work, and the global sport is progressing.
Deals like this don't actually help Korean sports. MVP isn't going to go out and give a bunch of kids deals in response to this. This just eases the financial burden and pressure of having to travel their current players and lets them maintain the status quo where everyone is making jack shit. It's poor business, but whatever. I'm just a lone voice crying in the wind and nobody will even understand this.
Man, that is one touching sentence. Seriously though, I don't understand how you don't see the good in this. If complexity were to simply buy DRG and genius then that would do absolutely nothing to further korean esports. Losing two of its best players could mean bad things for MVP sending them in a similar situation TSL is in now (running out of sponsors). Using this merger, complexity pays for DRG and Genius flights to foreign tournaments. If DRG or Genius were to win a tournament, then both complexity and MVP gain exposure and DRG and Genius gain profit they otherwise would have not had a chance to gain. Now MVP is letting a few coL players go to korea and practice there. We all already know the infrastructure in korea is much better then here (practice wise), so the coL roster also grows stronger. Over time coL grows, MVP grows, the SC2 scene continues to grow (hopefully) and new leagues open up, new players get hired etc. etc. Of course this is assuming everything goes perfectly.
You're simply wrong (not to sound condescending).
The deal is motivated by shortsightedness and short-term greed on the Korean team's part. They want to keep their players but they also need to be able to finance their travel. This deal solves that problem. However, if they would instead take buyouts on players now they could re-invest in more talent and pay all their players and pay all their finances and contract more players who could potentially be bought out for more money if they desired. This deal doesn't financially empower them to do any of that and only the airlines are the winners here.
Use hypothetical numbers here. Say Complexity buys DRG's contract (pending his agreement to salary) for $50k. MVP can then use that to sign dozens of talented kids to contracts. They can corner the market on star young players. They can re-invest in salarying players. Yes, in the beginning they are losing a great player. You're 100% sir. But a team is a business and you always have to be managing the future of the team versus the wealth and finances and strengthening the team. As long as you're getting proper value you can actually come out ahead. That's the key. And in the future they will have enough money to refuse offers should they choose.
money for Korean teams are going to be coming from sponsors, not from selling their best players off to the highest bidder
Korean teams need big name well known players to attract sponsors to their team and they need players that can consistently perform well
TSL had a nice sponsorship that allowed them to actually give some of their bigger name players actual real salaries because of FruitDealer's performance in GSL 1. however, TSL eventually lost that sponsorship deal because FD & Tester failed to put up any significant results over a certain amount of time. this is also why Puma is such a huge loss for TSL.
it's not that they didn't get any compensation from EG. it's that TSL could have possibly been able to use Puma as a name, a tool to help secure better sponsorship deals for the TSL team.
sounds like SK oGs to me. although SK didn't get whole squad and is said to be NOTrepresented IN korea (although i don't know if they are any less represented than for coL as they'll have a SK logo there as well)
On July 23 2011 15:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I don't like these types of "play-for-two-teams-but-not-really" deals. It's a way for the western teams to claim victories, without actually doing any of the work, so to speak.
If you went out and bought a high level team, I'd actually like that more than simply renting Koreans for Western leagues/tournies.
I'm with you all the way, but I believe those deals are down the road. I think right now foreign teams can't compensate Korean teams with buyouts that are fair enough for them to part with their players. What you and I want is the #1 type of transaction but for now we will have to settle for these sort of deals which are the #2. Gotta be patient. It'll happen some day.
I also don't like the idea it instills in the Korean scene. They don't have to bring foreigners over or cater to them at all, instead they'll pay us money to go play in tournaments and then come back home to ignore the West.
I strive for the idea that Foreigners and Koreans will be interchangeable at one time. Some players in Korea, some elsewhere, and sometimes together. This seems to encourage further separation, moreso than bringing anybody closer together.
On July 23 2011 15:44 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I don't like these types of "play-for-two-teams-but-not-really" deals. It's a way for the western teams to claim victories, without actually doing any of the work, so to speak.
If you went out and bought a high level team, I'd actually like that more than simply renting Koreans for Western leagues/tournies.
I'm with you all the way, but I believe those deals are down the road. I think right now foreign teams can't compensate Korean teams with buyouts that are fair enough for them to part with their players. What you and I want is the #1 type of transaction but for now we will have to settle for these sort of deals which are the #2. Gotta be patient. It'll happen some day.
Well, if you believe EG's Alex, they actually will sell off their top players, they're just asking for a price that would make it cheaper to buy the entire Team. That either says they're asking for an insane amount, or the teams aren't worth that much. Though I've seen a few people inside the esports industry saying the Korean teams aren't too profitable.
I think, for the time being, we're going to see something akin to the Chinese "Joint Venture" model for some teams. I don't think that's a great model, long term, but, without being willing to invest in an infrastructure to train players, it'll do for the time being.
One thing that should be noted from the press release, this will let Complexity use MVP players in Online tournament. Read that as "EG Master's Cup". I think if I was one of the currently Complexity rostered players, I'd be getting to Korea in a hurry. You job is going to be in massive peril very soon.
MVPCatZ!! this sounds rly nice though.. didnt read the whole thread, but not sure if its the first of its kind, sounds strikingly similar to the ogs-sk deal!
I hope it does not become too difficult for foreign teams to gain Korean players in the future. In my opinion that would stop the need for the SC 2 scene in Korea to become attractive enough to keep the players on the Korean teams. However, I do agree that reasonable contracts would be good for the security of Korean teams. To make it extremely difficult could have its own bad effects, the feeling of not having freewill can start revolutions. :D
My first ever TL forum post, though <3 team liquid articles and streams.
That's crazy... Seriously this week, every single time I have woken up and started Team Liquid, there's was some sort of new insane deal between a Korean and a Foreign team...
I don't really know if it's all good, all bad or somewhere in the middle but I'm really curious to see how it's going to evolve.
One thing that has been said and that I really agree on is that the current roster of coL seems week compared to those 2 (DRG especially), if this can be extra motivation for those guys to train their ass off, why not ?
On July 23 2011 11:25 Aaronplayshorn wrote: when will this happen for oGs and Liquid?
Didn't it already happen? But while the other teams use koreans to play in foreign leagues, here it is the korean team using foreigners to play in GSTL
Oh and I know it won't happen but just for the names sake : Slayers-Empire would be great
On July 23 2011 16:30 IceSlipper wrote: MVPCatZ!! this sounds rly nice though.. didnt read the whole thread, but not sure if its the first of its kind, sounds strikingly similar to the ogs-sk deal!
This is literally the oGs-SK deal, merged with the oGs-TL deal, with a proviso that they can use MVP players in Online team tournaments.
But, this is still effectively the oGs-SK deal until such time as a Complexity player heads to the MVP team house.
On July 23 2011 16:30 IceSlipper wrote: MVPCatZ!! this sounds rly nice though.. didnt read the whole thread, but not sure if its the first of its kind, sounds strikingly similar to the ogs-sk deal!
This is literally the oGs-SK deal, merged with the oGs-TL deal, with a proviso that they can use MVP players in Online team tournaments.
But, this is still effectively the oGs-SK deal until such time as a Complexity player heads to the MVP team house.
This is what i thought, so i dont see why it says its believed to be the first of its kind. lol
On July 23 2011 16:30 IceSlipper wrote: MVPCatZ!! this sounds rly nice though.. didnt read the whole thread, but not sure if its the first of its kind, sounds strikingly similar to the ogs-sk deal!
This is literally the oGs-SK deal, merged with the oGs-TL deal, with a proviso that they can use MVP players in Online team tournaments.
But, this is still effectively the oGs-SK deal until such time as a Complexity player heads to the MVP team house.
This is what i thought, so i dont see why it says its believed to be the first of its kind. lol
The first person to but Beans & Rice together technically was the first to put them together?
On July 23 2011 16:30 IceSlipper wrote: MVPCatZ!! this sounds rly nice though.. didnt read the whole thread, but not sure if its the first of its kind, sounds strikingly similar to the ogs-sk deal!
This is literally the oGs-SK deal, merged with the oGs-TL deal, with a proviso that they can use MVP players in Online team tournaments.
But, this is still effectively the oGs-SK deal until such time as a Complexity player heads to the MVP team house.
This is what i thought, so i dont see why it says its believed to be the first of its kind. lol
The first person to but Beans & Rice together technically was the first to put them together?
nice move complexity! sorry to say i absolutely hate the "coL" abbreviation for a few petty reasons, but damn it'll just be cool to see coL.MVPDongRaeGu at more foreign tournaments
On July 23 2011 17:16 CoR wrote: i have to say i like this "partnerships" like mvp/col and SK/oGs way more then this "moving" like puma to EG
yes, koreans will still play with their teammates and maintain their good condition, while being also overseas and playing foreigner tournaments, the best deal for them.
On July 23 2011 17:40 sekritzzz wrote: Guys this stuff is destroying e-sports global and we need EG to save us!!!!! I heard it from Alex Garfield and his super long explanation hurrrrr
Gratz coL, sick pick up.
roflmao
I have no idea what he said, but if you think 4-5 teams sharing ownership of a handful of players is more beneficial than the same teams creating their own squads, you've got another thing coming.
Very smart move by complexity. I'm glad to see that they're the first american team to do it (TL doesn't really count ok they do but still) Can't wait who decides to man up and go to Korea.
On July 23 2011 17:40 sekritzzz wrote: Guys this stuff is destroying e-sports global and we need EG to save us!!!!! I heard it from Alex Garfield and his super long explanation hurrrrr
Gratz coL, sick pick up.
roflmao
I have no idea what he said, but if you think 4-5 teams sharing ownership of a handful of players is more beneficial than the same teams creating their own squads, you've got another thing coming.
So you basically completely skipped the part of the agreement where it is possible for coL member to practice in a Korean pro house. Not that coL isn't already one of the most supportive organisations of new talent (Complexity academy). Keep it classy.
On July 23 2011 17:30 eggs wrote: nice move complexity! sorry to say i absolutely hate the "coL" abbreviation for a few petty reasons, but damn it'll just be cool to see coL.MVPDongRaeGu at more foreign tournaments
Yeah, coL never did seem like a good abbreviation for Complexity, why take a letter from the middle of a syllable instead of the beginning of one? Anyway I think this makes alot of sense for both teams. Complexity gets good representation, and Genius/DRG get to fly out to more events.
On July 23 2011 10:32 compLexityGaming wrote: Global Press Release
The arrangement is believed to be a first of its kind ...
Uhm, no sk beat u to it...
Wrong, it's not the same. In this situation, players are part of coL.MVP 100% of the time. Representing both brands both inside and outside Korea (Just two seperate jerseys.). SK and oGs are oGs in Korea and SK outside of korea.
On July 23 2011 14:41 Mohdoo wrote: Has Catz given an opinion on this? Him being on Complexity and being the most vocal about keeping Koreans out of the foreign scene is absolutely hilarious to me. I really, really, really want to hear what he has to say about this.
the big problem is everytime something like this happens, everyone starts quoting things I never said. if you want my opinion, my opinion has been voiced in multiple places multiple times.
I'm really happy both for complexity and for our new teammates. they will be traveling to international events to represent complexity and they will represent complexity while in korea as well. this is a completely different case scenario than for instance; having regional leagues. I don't see how they relate to each other, I have nothing against koreans, and if they are coming to foreign teams to TRAVEL and PLAY in this hemisphere, I don't only welcome that, I respect that and im glad, that makes e-sports grow on this hemisphere.
PLEASE stop twisting my words, if you don't have the capacity to understand what I've been saying all along, just don't comment on it!
On July 23 2011 14:41 Mohdoo wrote: Has Catz given an opinion on this? Him being on Complexity and being the most vocal about keeping Koreans out of the foreign scene is absolutely hilarious to me. I really, really, really want to hear what he has to say about this.
the big problem is everytime something like this happens, everyone starts quoting things I never said. if you want my opinion, my opinion has been voiced in multiple places multiple times.
I'm really happy both for complexity and for our new teammates. they will be traveling to international events to represent complexity and they will represent complexity while in korea as well. this is a completely different case scenario than for instance; having regional leagues. I don't see how they relate to each other, I have nothing against koreans, and if they are coming to foreign teams to TRAVEL and PLAY in this hemisphere, I don't only welcome that, I respect that and im glad, that makes e-sports grow on this hemisphere.
PLEASE stop twisting my words, if you don't have the capacity to understand what I've been saying all along, just don't comment on it!
lol.
"I don't want Koreans in our tournaments, they too good and take our moneyz." *Koreans join the team to participate in tournaments* "I never said that I was against having Koreans in TEAMS, gosh guys where ever would you think that I didn't want Koreans in the West. Of course I did, I just failed to mention that I wanted them in our teams. DUH. So disrespectful!"
Am I the only one who hates this? It's not about koreans joining the foreign teams. Thats okay. The issue is HOW ITS DONE.
This is neither buying players nor raising them. It's just advanced sponsorship. This shit is nothing persistent or something you can rely on.
Whats in 5 years? EG.MVP.coL.mouz.d.SK.MVP ? Seriously? Teams are becoming sponsors, is that really what you guys want? "Hey we are complexity gaming and we have the best 5 players on the planet. Well, at least we own 5% of them." -_-'.
On July 23 2011 14:41 Mohdoo wrote: Has Catz given an opinion on this? Him being on Complexity and being the most vocal about keeping Koreans out of the foreign scene is absolutely hilarious to me. I really, really, really want to hear what he has to say about this.
the big problem is everytime something like this happens, everyone starts quoting things I never said. if you want my opinion, my opinion has been voiced in multiple places multiple times.
I'm really happy both for complexity and for our new teammates. they will be traveling to international events to represent complexity and they will represent complexity while in korea as well. this is a completely different case scenario than for instance; having regional leagues. I don't see how they relate to each other, I have nothing against koreans, and if they are coming to foreign teams to TRAVEL and PLAY in this hemisphere, I don't only welcome that, I respect that and im glad, that makes e-sports grow on this hemisphere.
PLEASE stop twisting my words, if you don't have the capacity to understand what I've been saying all along, just don't comment on it!
lol.
"I don't want Koreans in our tournaments, they too good and take our moneyz." *Koreans join the team to participate in tournaments* "I never said that I was against having Koreans in TEAMS, gosh guys where ever would you think that I didn't want Koreans in the West. Of course I did, I just failed to mention that I wanted them in our teams. DUH. So disrespectful!"
Way to flip flop there CatZ,
His last sentence completely applies to you. Your summary of what he stated as his idea to grow e-sports in the US is hilariously for the lack of a better expression...double digit IQ?
On July 23 2011 10:44 Olinim wrote: When SK did this with MC and Nada everyone was pissed off. It's the same thing...hypocrites :/
That was because SK threw away their entire team and is just using NaDa and MC to promote their brand, MC and NaDa most certainly don't have a lack of funds to travel. But with Complexity they're giving a chance to two deserving players to come out and play in western tournaments.
You do realise that MC and NaDa DO have a lack of travel funds right? OGS isnt paying for them to go anywhere. All of MCs appearences in foreign events have either been paid by the tournament organisers eg. NASL or off his own back as far as im aware
On July 23 2011 18:40 Yiska wrote: His last sentence completely applies to you. Your summary of what he stated as his idea to grow e-sports in the US is hilariously for the lack of a better expression...double digit IQ?
Oh I see, I guess it's okay to apparently "kill the foreigner scene and discourage new pros" when coL. gets a piece of the pie.
On July 23 2011 18:39 KeksX wrote: Am I the only one who hates this? It's not about koreans joining the foreign teams. Thats okay. The issue is HOW ITS DONE.
This is neither buying players nor raising them. It's just advanced sponsorship. This shit is nothing persistent or something you can rely on.
Whats in 5 years? EG.MVP.coL.mouz.d.SK.MVP ? Seriously? Teams are becoming sponsors, is that really what you guys want? "Hey we are complexity gaming and we have the best 5 players on the planet. Well, at least we own 5% of them." -_-'.
Starcraft 2 is becoming a stock market, lol
Complexity has access to top of the line training in korea for its players, MVP players who perform well have access to tournaments outside of korea. This isn't just sponsorship, it promotes growth of both teams.
Complexity has access to top of the line training in korea for its players, MVP players who perform well have access to tournaments outside of korea. This isn't just "buying players", it promotes growth of both teams.
Yea, like I said, it's a sponsorship.
NaDa is still in oGs no matter where he plays, DRG is still MVPDRG no matter where he plays. But NaDa now gets money from SK and DRG gets money from coL.
This is nothing else than an advanced sponsorship and it's bad that teams are going into that direction.
On July 23 2011 18:40 Yiska wrote: His last sentence completely applies to you. Your summary of what he stated as his idea to grow e-sports in the US is hilariously for the lack of a better expression...double digit IQ?
Oh I see, I guess it's okay to apparently "kill the foreigner scene and discourage new pros" when coL. gets a piece of the pie.
Those topics aren't even related and you mash them up because you apparently didn't understand what he was stating. I encourage you to rewatch the clip where he states his idea and come back here. You are very off on this. Even regarding the topic you created (which is not what CatZ is talking about) the American players of coL still win out in this deal as they get to practice in a pro environment if they so wish.
coL is easily the most supportive organisation in NA of local talent.
Complexity has access to top of the line training in korea for its players, MVP players who perform well have access to tournaments outside of korea. This isn't just "buying players", it promotes growth of both teams.
Yea, like I said, it's a sponsorship.
NaDa is still in oGs no matter where he plays, DRG is still MVPDRG no matter where he plays. But NaDa now gets money from SK and DRG gets money from coL.
This is nothing else than an advanced sponsorship and it's bad that teams are going into that direction.
Yep you said it was a sponsorship, I corrected it(though too late lol).
The NaDa MC deal is different, as SK didn't get to improve its existing roster in return(as it has none), and there is no guarantee they will sponsor other oGs players for outside tournaments.
On July 23 2011 18:47 KeksX wrote: Yea, like I said, it's a sponsorship.
NaDa is still in oGs no matter where he plays, DRG is still MVPDRG no matter where he plays. But NaDa now gets money from SK and DRG gets money from coL.
This is nothing else than an advanced sponsorship and it's bad that teams are going into that direction.
I wish teams would follow FXO and TL's example and actually send players to train hard in Korea; maybe stay in their home countries and make team houses like EG.
But the bottom line is that hard work HAS been paying off for all foreigners who practice insanely hard.
Look at HuK as the oGs-TL ace. Look at qxc all killing IM. Read FXOboss's posts about how diligently his players are starting to practice realizing they have so much work to do.
Sponsorship isn't going to go very far. There are no shortcuts in anything in life.
On July 23 2011 11:01 Otolia wrote: Oh that's great, but I'm sorry to inform you that it won't make the NA scene any better.
User was temp banned for this post.
I honestly agree with this sentiment. Whilst it may be good news that strong Korean players are now supported properly and can attend more events, these kind of merges are going to surely have 1 of 2 effects on NA and Euro players. Either they pull their finger out and step up to the plate to show that they are equal in worth to Korean players, or they continue to perform on a (on average) lower level and eventually be left behind by the foreign based orgas.
It's the cool thing to do right now. Everybody wants a slice of Korean pie. Jason Bass and Jason Lake? Did those guys like change their names just so they could sound like more of a team? I wonder if they like fishing...
On July 23 2011 18:48 Yiska wrote: Those topics aren't even related and you mash them up because you apparently didn't understand what he was stating. I encourage you to rewatch the clip where he states his idea and come back here. You are very off on this. Even regarding the topic you created (which is not what CatZ is talking about) the American players of coL still win out in this deal as they get to practice in a pro environment if they so wish.
coL is easily the most supportive organisation in NA of local talent.
lol.
He starts bashing on NASL, MLG all these tournaments for inviting Koreans over saying that we have to keep them away to let E-Sports grow in the West. But then when his team starts a partnership with Koreans so (on the MVP's side of things) can send more Koreans to foreign events, he starts saying "no no no. it's completely okay because it's MY team that's doing it."
I have no problem with coL. doing this, but this is just complete bullshit when CatZ tries to explain that he agreed with his team's actions all along.
On July 23 2011 18:48 Yiska wrote: Those topics aren't even related and you mash them up because you apparently didn't understand what he was stating. I encourage you to rewatch the clip where he states his idea and come back here. You are very off on this. Even regarding the topic you created (which is not what CatZ is talking about) the American players of coL still win out in this deal as they get to practice in a pro environment if they so wish.
coL is easily the most supportive organisation in NA of local talent.
lol.
He starts bashing on NASL, MLG all these tournaments for inviting Koreans over saying that we have to keep them away to let E-Sports grow in the West. But then when his team starts a partnership with Koreans so (on the MVP's side of things) can send more Koreans to foreign events, he starts saying "no no no. it's completely okay because it's MY team that's doing it."
I have no problem with coL. doing this, but this is just complete bullshit when CatZ tries to explain that he agreed with his team's actions all along.
You keep making strawman arguments here. Do you actually read the posts you are responding to? Also you don't need to post lol at the beginning of your posts, they are hilarious enough as they are.
On July 23 2011 18:47 KeksX wrote: Yea, like I said, it's a sponsorship.
NaDa is still in oGs no matter where he plays, DRG is still MVPDRG no matter where he plays. But NaDa now gets money from SK and DRG gets money from coL.
This is nothing else than an advanced sponsorship and it's bad that teams are going into that direction.
I wish teams would follow FXO and TL's example and actually send players to train hard in Korea; maybe stay in their home countries and make team houses like EG.
But the bottom line is that hard work HAS been paying off for all foreigners who practice insanely hard.
Look at HuK as the oGs-TL ace. Look at qxc all killing IM. Read FXOboss's posts about how diligently his players are starting to practice realizing they have so much work to do.
Sponsorship isn't going to go very far. There are no shortcuts in anything in life.
Well to be fair, I don't think any other team can do what FXO has. And Complexity has the ability to do just what oGs and TL are doing as CoL players can go and train in the MVP house.
part of me likes this - awesome coL gets access to top tier talent and can send their players to a location without fear of them beign isolated there.
part of me also hates this - coL isn't actually doing anything except sponsoring another team, which i am definately not a fan of.
I really hope that thsi and the Sk deal are only the beginning and allow these teams to have an inroad with each other - and allow one(in this case coL, whose got plenty of capital and experience from what i've seen int he last couple months) to buy the other out when the time is right.
On July 23 2011 19:10 King of Kings wrote: I WANT col.KEEN at MLG!
To be honest I'd rather see his navy brother, cdr.KEEN at MLG.
At first blush this sounds like a good deal, but I afraid that after not too long we'll see a similar post saying that FXO or col has released most or all of their non-Korean players, and merged the rest into the Korean organization. It seems that is more likely than seeing more than 1 or 2 players on these foreign teams going and staying in Korean (after the GTSL).
Cool beans, these are great players. It's particularly interesting they mention their participation in online tournaments. I think other foreigner teams are going to need to look towards similar deals to keep up.
On July 23 2011 18:50 Gamegene wrote: I wish teams would follow FXO and TL's example and actually send players to train hard in Korea; maybe stay in their home countries and make team houses like EG.
But the bottom line is that hard work HAS been paying off for all foreigners who practice insanely hard.
Look at HuK as the oGs-TL ace. Look at qxc all killing IM. Read FXOboss's posts about how diligently his players are starting to practice realizing they have so much work to do.
Sponsorship isn't going to go very far. There are no shortcuts in anything in life.
Yes, I like the approach FXO and TL are going. They are not only sponsoring, but contributing on both sides player wise. HuK is with oGs and oGs provides all he needs to become a better player.
Also, FXO is now "one" with fOu, they're not just giving money but also giving an opportunity to practice with other players worldwide, play in foreign tournaments etc. They are now one team and not just sponsoring each other with money or shit like that.
But the way coL and SK go is imho just pretty bad. It's okay though because these deals will break soon enough.
On July 23 2011 18:50 Gamegene wrote: I wish teams would follow FXO and TL's example and actually send players to train hard in Korea; maybe stay in their home countries and make team houses like EG.
But the bottom line is that hard work HAS been paying off for all foreigners who practice insanely hard.
Look at HuK as the oGs-TL ace. Look at qxc all killing IM. Read FXOboss's posts about how diligently his players are starting to practice realizing they have so much work to do.
Sponsorship isn't going to go very far. There are no shortcuts in anything in life.
Yes, I like the approach FXO and TL are going. They are not only sponsoring, but contributing on both sides player wise. HuK is with oGs and oGs provides all he needs to become a better player.
Also, FXO is now "one" with fOu, they're not just giving money but also giving an opportunity to practice with other players worldwide, play in foreign tournaments etc. They are now one team and not just sponsoring each other with money or shit like that.
But the way coL and SK go is imho just pretty bad. It's okay though because these deals will break soon enough.
Keksx please do everyone a freaking favor and spend 5 minutes reading the first post. Then go have a drink and spend another 5 minutes reading it again.
CoL's agreement is one of it's kind because it combines both TL's and SK's deals together.
On July 23 2011 19:10 King of Kings wrote: I WANT col.KEEN at MLG!
To be honest I'd rather see his navy brother, cdr.KEEN at MLG.
At first blush this sounds like a good deal, but I afraid that after not too long we'll see a similar post saying that FXO or col has released most or all of their non-Korean players, and merged the rest into the Korean organization. It seems that is more likely than seeing more than 1 or 2 players on these foreign teams going and staying in Korean (after the GTSL).
FXO won't, as they're well setup for outside of Korea, just kind of close by. Plus, they have some really long term goals (of which I know exists, what they are I'm not sure). FXO is actually going for the 1-stop-shop approach of having casting teams along with playing teams. Plus, they're so far invested in Malaysia, they aren't going to abandon ship anytime soon.
Though, I do worry for Oz's ability to learn English. Too much more time around Tgun and he may be ruined.
Edit: I should probably point out that, it seems, the unwritten rule of FXO's operation is "MarineKing.Prime will take 70% of our money".
This is how you make a proper announcement. Introduction, a quote from side A, a quote from side B, wrap up. I'm sick and tired of the one-sided sensationalism.
Anyway, I'm glad to see some travel support and I hope it goes well .
CoL just got a monster teammate/practice partner lol :p Once complexity tries to send dongraegu to all the foreign events I wouldn't be surprised if he'll be like MC top3 consistent :D
Mini training with genius, catz training with DRG... if either bothers to take advantage of that opportunity haha. All I want to say is that nothing would make me happier than to see Minigun training for awhile in the MVP house haha.
- MVP gets to send it's best players to foreign tournaments, meaning easy money. their stars remain happy where they are, MVP wins. - coL gets beast like DRG to wear it's t-shirt when outside of Korea, and free housing and access to korean training for it's members. coL doesn't win if it's actual rooster doesn't go to Korea.
so i would have been more happy to read something in the lines of "drg and genius wear coL tshirts, x and y going to korea in a month's time"
as it is, organization gets exposure, while foreigners in the team don't get anything, except worrying when will complexity gaming realize that they can just buy-out random korean team and abandon them cause they are far worse skillwise.
(again, if somebody, anybody from coL actually went to korea - i would change my opinion instantly)
On July 23 2011 20:18 snailz wrote: - MVP gets to send it's best players to foreign tournaments, meaning easy money. their stars remain happy where they are, MVP wins. - coL gets beast like DRG to wear it's t-shirt when outside of Korea, and free housing and access to korean training for it's members. coL doesn't win if it's actual rooster doesn't go to Korea.
so i would have been more happy to read something in the lines of "drg and genius wear coL tshirts, x and y going to korea in a month's time"
as it is, organization gets exposure, while foreigners in the team don't get anything, except worrying when will complexity gaming realize that they can just buy-out random korean team and abandon them cause they are far worse skillwise.
(again, if somebody, anybody from coL actually went to korea - i would change my opinion instantly)
Last part is important. If we don't have a complexity player going to Korea in about 2 months, then complexity is just renting some Koreans, so it has people placing in MLGs & team tournaments. Which is a good deal for MVP, not a good deal for complexity, at that point.
Once complexity's main roster players spend time training in Korea, then it becomes a good deal, assuming it didn't cost them too much.
International team leagues might get quite amusing now.
"It all comes down to this ace match and FXO is bringing out there big guns, Sc. And it looks like EG's is responding by sending out the NASL season 1 champion Puma.
Elsewhere in our other semi-final match things are hotting up with complexity's DRG melting team liquid faces, the TL bench is conversing who to send out next .... what this ... it's a guest appearance from ogsMC."
On July 23 2011 20:18 snailz wrote: - MVP gets to send it's best players to foreign tournaments, meaning easy money. their stars remain happy where they are, MVP wins. - coL gets beast like DRG to wear it's t-shirt when outside of Korea, and free housing and access to korean training for it's members. coL doesn't win if it's actual rooster doesn't go to Korea.
so i would have been more happy to read something in the lines of "drg and genius wear coL tshirts, x and y going to korea in a month's time"
as it is, organization gets exposure, while foreigners in the team don't get anything, except worrying when will complexity gaming realize that they can just buy-out random korean team and abandon them cause they are far worse skillwise.
(again, if somebody, anybody from coL actually went to korea - i would change my opinion instantly)
I understand your point, and kinda agree with you.
I think FXO did the best job so far. They not only sent their players to Korea, but made everything possible to make those guys improve. And merging FXO and FOU together was a nice move. When more fxo foreign players go to Korea, they will have an even better background to improve.
I kind of wonder with all this talk about foreign teams approaching Korean players if this is where all these mergers are coming from.
IE: Col. approaches DRG, says they are interested in signing him and maybe genius, DRG then says to them maybe you should speak with my coach first, which in turn takes place and this is the type of deal that is struck.
How do we know that Col. didn't approach DRG and Genius on their own? And maybe if they did this is how things turned out.
Teams better get their koreans while their still available... jesus the whole country is about to be bought out by foreign teams... and you know who benefits... ESPORTS
Ya know, I was siding with EG on their aquisition of Puma, but I can't but think after this announcement that maybe they did go the wrong way. I don't have anything against the way they did things but it seems that a deal like this could have been beneficial to both teams.
On July 23 2011 21:54 raistline123 wrote: I kind of wonder with all this talk about foreign teams approaching Korean players if this is where all these mergers are coming from.
IE: Col. approaches DRG, says they are interested in signing him and maybe genius, DRG then says to them maybe you should speak with my coach first, which in turn takes place and this is the type of deal that is struck.
How do we know that Col. didn't approach DRG and Genius on their own? And maybe if they did this is how things turned out.
We contacted Choi, the MVP manager, first and contacted him directly (not through a player).
On July 23 2011 21:54 raistline123 wrote: I kind of wonder with all this talk about foreign teams approaching Korean players if this is where all these mergers are coming from.
IE: Col. approaches DRG, says they are interested in signing him and maybe genius, DRG then says to them maybe you should speak with my coach first, which in turn takes place and this is the type of deal that is struck.
How do we know that Col. didn't approach DRG and Genius on their own? And maybe if they did this is how things turned out.
We contacted Choi, the MVP manager, first and contacted him directly (not through a player).
Ahh good to hear. I love the direction things are going keep up the great work!!!!
Does all of this have anything to do with what EG guy Alex Garfield was talking about on Weapon of Choice? You know. Korean teams are hurting for sponsors. So they would obviously look outside for sponsorship deals, and combining forces with foreigner teams that actually have great sponsors and funding would be the best logical choice. This way MVP gets extra money from sponsorships and coL gets some great players under their team flag as well.
At any rate, great acquisition and great deal I'm sure for both sides. Can't wait to see some DRG at more foreigner events and maybe even some coL guys in the MVP house.
We at compLexity have started off a solid business partnership with MVP. I really believe you will see this deal deepen and grow over time. You will see a lot more cooperation and way to get both brands exposure but having dual roles in guiding and managing the players. In all honesty we already have several things in the works to not only benefit Western eSports from this deal but greatly benefit the Korean scene as well. The point of this all is yes it is a good business move for us and them but more importantly this will help us both become better organizations. No one is being harmed by this. The players are getting more exposure, opportunity and travel and both organizations are gaining a foothold outside of their homelands as well as the increased exposure and ability to learn from each other.
There is always going to be the clamoring for "why didnt they just buy out the players or buy the whole organization or merger? That is not always possible. All options were discussed and at this moment in time both parties agreed this was the best way to start.
Raistline: I can tell you, you should read my interview on ESFI. I am very honest and transparent about how all of this happened. One thing I believe in heavily is just being honest. Good or bad that is the best policy and I have been working in eSports for over 10 years and so a lot of people can vouch for that fact. So on that note, I could give you every name of the people I spoke with to get to Choi but I won't. I did not speak to the players prior to speaking to Choi(MVP Manager). That I 100% guarantee.
[B] Raistline: I can tell you, you should read my interview on ESFI. I am very honest and transparent about how all of this happened. One thing I believe in heavily is just being honest. Good or bad that is the best policy and I have been working in eSports for over 10 years and so a lot of people can vouch for that fact. So on that note, I could give you every name of the people I spoke with to get to Choi but I won't. I did not speak to the players prior to speaking to Choi(MVP Manager). That I 100% guarantee.
[B] Raistline: I can tell you, you should read my interview on ESFI. I am very honest and transparent about how all of this happened. One thing I believe in heavily is just being honest. Good or bad that is the best policy and I have been working in eSports for over 10 years and so a lot of people can vouch for that fact. So on that note, I could give you every name of the people I spoke with to get to Choi but I won't. I did not speak to the players prior to speaking to Choi(MVP Manager). That I 100% guarantee.
I wasn't doubting your honesty one bit. I have read the thread and am looking forward to the future for your team.
Will you eventually be sending players to Korea to train??? Is this part of the deal at all?
The plan is to send players to Korea. It really just depends on schedules and their desire. This is still very new so we are working out those details. Some players have expressed interest. We will just try to time it with other events and the GSL schedule to get the most out of it for the players.
On July 23 2011 22:26 coljbass wrote: We at compLexity have started off a solid business partnership with MVP. I really believe you will see this deal deepen and grow over time. You will see a lot more cooperation and way to get both brands exposure but having dual roles in guiding and managing the players. In all honesty we already have several things in the works to not only benefit Western eSports from this deal but greatly benefit the Korean scene as well. The point of this all is yes it is a good business move for us and them but more importantly this will help us both become better organizations. No one is being harmed by this. The players are getting more exposure, opportunity and travel and both organizations are gaining a foothold outside of their homelands as well as the increased exposure and ability to learn from each other.
There is always going to be the clamoring for "why didnt they just buy out the players or buy the whole organization or merger? That is not always possible. All options were discussed and at this moment in time both parties agreed this was the best way to start.
Raistline: I can tell you, you should read my interview on ESFI. I am very honest and transparent about how all of this happened. One thing I believe in heavily is just being honest. Good or bad that is the best policy and I have been working in eSports for over 10 years and so a lot of people can vouch for that fact. So on that note, I could give you every name of the people I spoke with to get to Choi but I won't. I did not speak to the players prior to speaking to Choi(MVP Manager). That I 100% guarantee.
On July 23 2011 23:12 Count9 wrote: Korea's got players, west's got money, this seems like it's good for all parties. Well, except new western up and coming pros.
It gives up and coming pros access to the best training in the world, which has proven results(HuK, Jinro).
I like this. Cooperation and partnerships between teams, not poaching. That's the one thing i've always loved most about the Liquid-oGs thing, is that joint house and how its really opened us up to oGs, and to a greater extent Korea via witnessing Huk and MC and Jinro and the like. Really good. Furthermore we're getting top foreign pros practising in Korea and raising the level.
On July 23 2011 21:54 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote: coL basically just looked at the oGs-SK and oGs-TL deals and said "Hmm. How can we take the best parts of both of these and make it work?" and did.
Well done on their part.
Agreed, I think it looks really nice, congrats to coL on a nice move
On July 23 2011 23:12 Count9 wrote: Korea's got players, west's got money, this seems like it's good for all parties. Well, except new western up and coming pros.
Ppl keep mentioning this is bad for up and coming western pro's but i will never get that. In korea its harder to become "pro" cause of the harder competition and only the GSL/GSTL as competition to prove themself yet there we nonstop see new players coming out of the woodwork.
I find it a bit funny how this is considered a good thing by the majority, then again same thing happened with Nada / MC and SK Gaming and that was majorly frowned upon.
On July 23 2011 23:33 namste wrote: I find it a bit funny how this is considered a good thing by the majority, then again same thing happened with Nada / MC and SK Gaming and that was majorly frowned upon.
It's a different situation, there is no parternship really. MC/NADA will be wearing SK shirts while they attend foreign events, and thats pretty much the end of it.
I've just realized now, all of these foreign teams no longer seem like actual "teams" anymore, they all just feel like brands. It's cool that DRG and Genius, MC, and Nada will get support in foreign tournaments now, but all it says is that they're getting the support to advertise a team brand. It's hard to justify calling them "teams" now.
On July 23 2011 23:12 Count9 wrote: Korea's got players, west's got money, this seems like it's good for all parties. Well, except new western up and coming pros.
Actually if you look at the next TL open there are over 500 participants that are just from the US. There are lots of opportunities for westerners to get their name out there, they just have to post the results in order to do so. Aquring Korean players for foreign teams is not preventing western players from exceeding IMO.
What is happening right now in SC2 Esports is so interesting, I think we have started to major world wide company's form around sc2 esports and I don't think there will be a difference between Korean and Foreign teams in a couple of years.
On July 23 2011 23:12 Count9 wrote: Korea's got players, west's got money, this seems like it's good for all parties. Well, except new western up and coming pros.
It gives up and coming pros access to the best training in the world, which has proven results(HuK, Jinro).
^ This.
Anyone who's doubting that these scenarios will help the west aren't realizing that when a deal like oGs-TL or coL-MVP, or even FXO buying out fOu while maintaining their current rosters materializes, players on the respective teams all of the sudden now have an opportunity to train in these houses with the pros, in that structured environment. How long they stay is their choice, but they do gain a monstrous edge when they go over there, and the opportunities are limitless.
On July 23 2011 23:12 Count9 wrote: Korea's got players, west's got money, this seems like it's good for all parties. Well, except new western up and coming pros.
Actually if you look at the next TL open there are over 500 participants that are just from the US. There are lots of opportunities for westerners to get their name out there, they just have to post the results in order to do so. Aquring Korean players for foreign teams is not preventing western players from exceeding IMO.
Without training with the best, non-Koreans just fall futher and futher behind, as we've seen in the time from the beta to now.
As far as "hurting up and coming NA players" I assure you that we're concerned with growing our local community as well. The compLexity Academy is our effort to develop some local NA talent.
If this trend keeps going, it could have a severe chain reaction to most of the BW B-teamers who are actually pretty decent but just can't catch a break to get on the TV. This could lead to a rapid increase of SC2 popularity in Korea as more and more pros flock to showcase their RTS skills in SC2.. I bet that MBCGames and OGN are watching this movement while leaking their lips.
I'm not sure how many of the B-teamers actually do have a contract (which probabaly would prevent them from practicing SC2)
Hah, nice move to compete with SK's new acquisitions. Pretty cool though, hopefully it means a lot more Koreans and because of that, better games, in upcoming foreign tournies.
I am really interested to see what comes out of this. I really like that in SC2 the korean and the western scene arent split up. Well love watching DRG so i really hope to see him participate in foreign tournaments way more often. MVP+Col fightiiing
Seems the future of SC2 programming is shaping up to be these dual Korean-foreigner sponsorships, especially since there doesn't seem to be an in-home market of sponsorships for Korean teams atm. I wonder if in the not too distant future, we'll start seeing some more deeply fused teams (i.e. teams being jointly run in Korea and outside) or outright purchases like the FXO-fOu situation.
On July 24 2011 08:56 AntiGrav1ty wrote: So SK gets all the hate and complexity has done a great job? It's the exact (!) same deal... People are so confused...
No it's not. Complexity didn't fire they're existing team and they gave their existing team a chance to play in Korea.
On July 24 2011 00:28 Krogan wrote: What is happening right now in SC2 Esports is so interesting, I think we have started to major world wide company's form around sc2 esports and I don't think there will be a difference between Korean and Foreign teams in a couple of years.
I can only dream.... Col. vs EG at GSTL Grand Final on year 2013 held at Anaheim, CA.
This is very exciting indeed, but I also feel like it shows a problem with the Korean SC2 scene: There are simply not enough competitions and tournaments to serve all of their players, so Koreans have to seek competition outside of Korea.
On July 24 2011 11:40 MildSeven wrote: is Catz ok with this? Wouldn't he cry about Koreans joining his team and stealing his money?
I thought that his issue was that they have no involvement in the foreign scene whatsoever, and any money they won would go straight back into Korea. In this case, if a player from the coL.MVP team wins, then some of the recognition of that player goes towards the team itself, and to helping foreigners from their team who may want to go to Korea.
Then again, you are clearly just trying to bash CatZ by the way you worded your question, so I don't think anything I say will matter.
On July 24 2011 11:40 MildSeven wrote: is Catz ok with this? Wouldn't he cry about Koreans joining his team and stealing his money?
I thought that his issue was that they have no involvement in the foreign scene whatsoever, and any money they won would go straight back into Korea.
Complexity already said DRG and Genius keep 100% of the prize money, so however you slice it all the prize money is still going back to korea. Same with the SK/OGS deal. I like these deals cause I get to see more koreans in foreign tournies.
Still hoping someone teams with IM so we get MVP/Nestea to more tournies!
On July 24 2011 11:40 MildSeven wrote: is Catz ok with this? Wouldn't he cry about Koreans joining his team and stealing his money?
I thought that his issue was that they have no involvement in the foreign scene whatsoever, and any money they won would go straight back into Korea.
Complexity already said DRG and Genius keep 100% of the prize money, so however you slice it all the prize money is still going back to korea. Same with the SK/OGS deal. I like these deals cause I get to see more koreans in foreign tournies.
Still hoping someone teams with IM so we get MVP/Nestea to more tournies!
Well I don't know if MVP takes a cut or not... so let's just assume they don't, my point was still that it gives the coL and MVP name more recognition which is good for sponsors, and once again the coL players can benefit from a place to stay when in Korea.
I love seeing these deals. They benefit the spectators just as much as the players involved. With the increased sponsorship going to the Koreans, who at the moment have a leg up on the foreign competition , we will get to see the best competition showing up at every major event.
Idra will have less opportunities to write off tourney wins by "lucky players" because there were no Koreans at an event.
Plus I really just want to see DRG at MLG Orlando.
So good to see foreign communities getting so involved in Korean teams. This is definitely the proper way to do it. Going to make everyone happy financially and coL gets their name closer to some really good players.
can someone please explain why all of a sudden all these korean teams are merging with international teams, is this because of MLG and other tournaments enticing korean players so they are combining forces to help fund the transit between ? either way i think it's great and its going to be cool to see who teams up with who.
On July 25 2011 06:37 bl wrote: can someone please explain why all of a sudden all these korean teams are merging with international teams, is this because of MLG and other tournaments enticing korean players so they are combining forces to help fund the transit between ? either way i think it's great and its going to be cool to see who teams up with who.
YAY E-SPORTS !!!!!!!
Its because they dont have enough money basically. For instance with fou/FXO, fou literally were at breaking point financially. Korea might have the training facilities, but for now the teams that are established there are not in general major players in a financial sense
10 years of broodwar might have put them ahead where training etc is concerned, but the sc2 teams in korea, as far as im aware are as new as the game (dont hold me to that but I think its true). On the other hand the western teams might not have been supporting brood war, but for the past 10 years many of them have been developing as comparatively strong buisnesses through support of other more prominent games. Whereas these western teams are picking up sc2, the Korean brood war sides arnt, and they are the ones who hold the Korean money on lock down. The Korean sc2 teams cant get none at home :-/
Cool, this is awesome for foreign teams. Its really cool to see a lot of Korean teams/players joining up with foreign teams, i think its really beneficial to esports
This is bad news for the foreign community, in my opinion at least. Already the koreans who've been to foreign tourneys have absolutely demolished all competition with a few rare exceptions (notably HuK's perfomance in Dreamhack). By bringing more and more top koreans to the foreign scene, which is already fragile and still in its infancy, I expect the number of foreign players in foreign tourneys will drop simply because they cannot keep up with their korean peers. People will get discouraged from playing because they will get demolished or they will get choked out because there are only so many open spots available, and with more and better koreans arriving to grab hold of these spots, there ultimately will only be space for the ultimate elite of foreigners.
I hate to discriminate, but lets keep the total number of koreans in MLG for instance at 4-6, as MLG Colubmus play-wise was a farce.
One last thing. Why would a team like MVP sign a partnership with a team like Complexity, if not for money and publicity. To me it just seems like Complexity is being used as a tool to send DRG, Genius etc to foreign tourneys to earn money and honour for team MVP. Sure, their handles will be coL.DRG and coL.Genius, but who are they honestly fooling.
Best of luck to Complexity's players if they can (AND WILL) go to Korea to practice. It's not a guarantee for success or progress. Look at Jinro.
On July 25 2011 07:52 Hemera wrote: This is bad news for the foreign community, in my opinion at least. Already the koreans who've been to foreign tourneys have absolutely demolished all competition with a few rare exceptions (notably HuK's perfomance in Dreamhack). By bringing more and more top koreans to the foreign scene, which is already fragile and still in its infancy, I expect the number of foreign players in foreign tourneys will drop simply because they cannot keep up with their korean peers. People will get discouraged from playing because they will get demolished or they will get choked out because there are only so many open spots available, and with more and better koreans arriving to grab hold of these spots, there ultimately will only be space for the ultimate elite of foreigners.
I hate to discriminate, but lets keep the total number of koreans in MLG for instance at 4-6, as MLG Colubmus play-wise was a farce.
One last thing. Why would a team like MVP sign a partnership with a team like Complexity, if not for money and publicity. To me it just seems like Complexity is being used as a tool to send DRG, Genius etc to foreign tourneys to earn money and honour for team MVP. Sure, their handles will be coL.DRG and coL.Genius, but who are they honestly fooling.
Best of luck to Complexity's players if they can (AND WILL) go to Korea to practice. It's not a guarantee for success or progress. Look at Jinro.
Why do you care what country a player is from? Why would support an American over a Korean? Neither of the countries are anywhere near you.
Why do you care what country a player is from? Why would support an American over a Korean? Neither of the countries are anywhere near you.
Because it's going to choke the foreign scene when only 2 foreign players make it further than round 1 of the open brackets and the rest is korean players who have a "partnership" deal with a foreign team..
On July 25 2011 07:52 Hemera wrote: This is bad news for the foreign community, in my opinion at least. Already the koreans who've been to foreign tourneys have absolutely demolished all competition with a few rare exceptions (notably HuK's perfomance in Dreamhack). By bringing more and more top koreans to the foreign scene, which is already fragile and still in its infancy, I expect the number of foreign players in foreign tourneys will drop simply because they cannot keep up with their korean peers. People will get discouraged from playing because they will get demolished or they will get choked out because there are only so many open spots available, and with more and better koreans arriving to grab hold of these spots, there ultimately will only be space for the ultimate elite of foreigners.
I hate to discriminate, but lets keep the total number of koreans in MLG for instance at 4-6, as MLG Colubmus play-wise was a farce.
One last thing. Why would a team like MVP sign a partnership with a team like Complexity, if not for money and publicity. To me it just seems like Complexity is being used as a tool to send DRG, Genius etc to foreign tourneys to earn money and honour for team MVP. Sure, their handles will be coL.DRG and coL.Genius, but who are they honestly fooling.
Best of luck to Complexity's players if they can (AND WILL) go to Korea to practice. It's not a guarantee for success or progress. Look at Jinro.
So because they are good they aren't allowed to join? Have fun saying "yea sorry but you are korean and we already got 5 of those in the tournament so you are not allowed" If foreigners want to get the same reward as the koreans they need to put in the same dedication, i don't see how that is wrong.
Why do you care what country a player is from? Why would support an American over a Korean? Neither of the countries are anywhere near you.
Because it's going to choke the foreign scene when only 2 foreign players make it further than round 1 of the open brackets and the rest is korean players who have a "partnership" deal with a foreign team..
Just seems like racism to me. Affirmative action is for losers. There's no foreign scene in Sc2 anyway. There's a European, a Korean, a Chinese and an American scene. The EU/NA guys are no more united than EU/Kor or NA/Kor.
On July 24 2011 11:40 MildSeven wrote: is Catz ok with this? Wouldn't he cry about Koreans joining his team and stealing his money?
I thought that his issue was that they have no involvement in the foreign scene whatsoever, and any money they won would go straight back into Korea. In this case, if a player from the coL.MVP team wins, then some of the recognition of that player goes towards the team itself, and to helping foreigners from their team who may want to go to Korea.
Then again, you are clearly just trying to bash CatZ by the way you worded your question, so I don't think anything I say will matter.
What i am trying to criticize isn't just CatZ, CatZ happens to be the player who is vocal about the Koreans as an issue. What i am criticizing is the mentality that the foreign competitive scene should reserve places based on nationality and not purely on skills, which is what it should be based on completely. CatZ sees it as an issue because it's an undeniable fact that Koreans are superior in starcraft 2, the TSL3 didn't prove anything, wasn't some watershed moment people expected because we can see the results from following tournaments, the Korean domination of almost every international lan/online tourneys they enter. I am not Korean, my principles are straight up, whoever has the best skill should be playing wherever they qualify to. Obviously the foreign teams feels it's marketable to get Korean players to help them get better results since it garners more money from the sponsors. How would Catz feel about this personally? I think he feels it cripples his chances for personal gains, it greatly reduces his chances at rising to the top where the competition in the foreign scene is already high without the Koreans, but if we think for the fans, if we think for the evolution of the skill level of foreign players, then allowing Koreans to join everywhere they should only heighten the skills of foreign players with the mentality and drive to challenge the Koreans through tougher practices, greater will.
CatZ's bitching is an implication of his solution: We are gona look good as long as Koreans don't drive. The legit solution should be : let them join, let them win for now, we just need to practice harder, have the will and mentality like the likes of QXC and HuK to not limper in the face of great opposition as CatZ wants cause he's a frail subpar pro-level player. So am i bashing on CatZ? Yes, i am, so what. Am i legitimized to do so, absolutely i think i am.
Why do you care what country a player is from? Why would support an American over a Korean? Neither of the countries are anywhere near you.
Because it's going to choke the foreign scene when only 2 foreign players make it further than round 1 of the open brackets and the rest is korean players who have a "partnership" deal with a foreign team..
Just seems like racism to me. Affirmative action is for losers. There's no foreign scene in Sc2 anyway. There's a European, a Korean, a Chinese and an American scene. The EU/NA guys are no more united than EU/Kor or NA/Kor.
Its not so much racism, as a desire for something similar to what you find in football with different leagues dependant on where you are from. Whether thats a good or bad thing isnt for this thread, but the guys right, this likely will not help foreign players break out
Why do you care what country a player is from? Why would support an American over a Korean? Neither of the countries are anywhere near you.
Because it's going to choke the foreign scene when only 2 foreign players make it further than round 1 of the open brackets and the rest is korean players who have a "partnership" deal with a foreign team..
Just seems like racism to me. Affirmative action is for losers. There's no foreign scene in Sc2 anyway. There's a European, a Korean, a Chinese and an American scene. The EU/NA guys are no more united than EU/Kor or NA/Kor.
Its not so much racism, as a desire for something similar to what you find in football with different leagues dependant on where you are from. Whether thats a good or bad thing isnt for this thread, but the guys right, this likely will not help foreign players break out
Except Sc2 isn't a team sport, it's a solo sport like Golf or Tennis. If you're going to use regular sports as an example that should be it.
Regardless you get better by playing with better players, not by playing with weaker players.
On July 25 2011 07:52 Hemera wrote: This is bad news for the foreign community, in my opinion at least. Already the koreans who've been to foreign tourneys have absolutely demolished all competition with a few rare exceptions (notably HuK's perfomance in Dreamhack). By bringing more and more top koreans to the foreign scene, which is already fragile and still in its infancy, I expect the number of foreign players in foreign tourneys will drop simply because they cannot keep up with their korean peers. People will get discouraged from playing because they will get demolished or they will get choked out because there are only so many open spots available, and with more and better koreans arriving to grab hold of these spots, there ultimately will only be space for the ultimate elite of foreigners.
I hate to discriminate, but lets keep the total number of koreans in MLG for instance at 4-6, as MLG Colubmus play-wise was a farce.
One last thing. Why would a team like MVP sign a partnership with a team like Complexity, if not for money and publicity. To me it just seems like Complexity is being used as a tool to send DRG, Genius etc to foreign tourneys to earn money and honour for team MVP. Sure, their handles will be coL.DRG and coL.Genius, but who are they honestly fooling.
Best of luck to Complexity's players if they can (AND WILL) go to Korea to practice. It's not a guarantee for success or progress. Look at Jinro.
So because they are good they aren't allowed to join? Have fun saying "yea sorry but you are korean and we already got 5 of those in the tournament so you are not allowed" If foreigners want to get the same reward as the koreans they need to put in the same dedication, i don't see how that is wrong.
yeh.. i dont see why raising the general skill bar would be a bad thing for foreigner tournys, it will just force the foreign players to train harder and become better players simply saying oh we don't want to play really good people we just want to swim in mediocrity isnt good for sc2 as an esport.
On July 24 2011 11:40 MildSeven wrote: is Catz ok with this? Wouldn't he cry about Koreans joining his team and stealing his money?
I thought that his issue was that they have no involvement in the foreign scene whatsoever, and any money they won would go straight back into Korea. In this case, if a player from the coL.MVP team wins, then some of the recognition of that player goes towards the team itself, and to helping foreigners from their team who may want to go to Korea.
Then again, you are clearly just trying to bash CatZ by the way you worded your question, so I don't think anything I say will matter.
What i am trying to criticize isn't just CatZ, CatZ happens to be the player who is vocal about the Koreans as an issue. What i am criticizing is the mentality that the foreign competitive scene should reserve places based on nationality and not purely on skills, which is what it should be based on completely. CatZ sees it as an issue because it's an undeniable fact that Koreans are superior in starcraft 2, the TSL3 didn't prove anything, wasn't some watershed moment people expected because we can see the results from following tournaments, the Korean domination of almost every international lan/online tourneys they enter. I am not Korean, my principles are straight up, whoever has the best skill should be playing wherever they qualify to. Obviously the foreign teams feels it's marketable to get Korean players to help them get better results since it garners more money from the sponsors. How would Catz feel about this personally? I think he feels it cripples his chances for personal gains, it greatly reduces his chances at rising to the top where the competition in the foreign scene is already high without the Koreans, but if we think for the fans, if we think for the evolution of the skill level of foreign players, then allowing Koreans to join everywhere they should only heighten the skills of foreign players with the mentality and drive to challenge the Koreans through tougher practices, greater will.
CatZ's bitching is an implication of his solution: We are gona look good as long as Koreans don't drive. The legit solution should be : let them join, let them win for now, we just need to practice harder, have the will and mentality like the likes of QXC and HuK to not limper in the face of great opposition as CatZ wants cause he's a frail subpar pro-level player. So am i bashing on CatZ? Yes, i am, so what. Am i legitimized to do so, absolutely i think i am.
On July 24 2011 11:40 MildSeven wrote: is Catz ok with this? Wouldn't he cry about Koreans joining his team and stealing his money?
I thought that his issue was that they have no involvement in the foreign scene whatsoever, and any money they won would go straight back into Korea. In this case, if a player from the coL.MVP team wins, then some of the recognition of that player goes towards the team itself, and to helping foreigners from their team who may want to go to Korea.
Then again, you are clearly just trying to bash CatZ by the way you worded your question, so I don't think anything I say will matter.
What i am trying to criticize isn't just CatZ, CatZ happens to be the player who is vocal about the Koreans as an issue. What i am criticizing is the mentality that the foreign competitive scene should reserve places based on nationality and not purely on skills, which is what it should be based on completely. CatZ sees it as an issue because it's an undeniable fact that Koreans are superior in starcraft 2, the TSL3 didn't prove anything, wasn't some watershed moment people expected because we can see the results from following tournaments, the Korean domination of almost every international lan/online tourneys they enter. I am not Korean, my principles are straight up, whoever has the best skill should be playing wherever they qualify to. Obviously the foreign teams feels it's marketable to get Korean players to help them get better results since it garners more money from the sponsors. How would Catz feel about this personally? I think he feels it cripples his chances for personal gains, it greatly reduces his chances at rising to the top where the competition in the foreign scene is already high without the Koreans, but if we think for the fans, if we think for the evolution of the skill level of foreign players, then allowing Koreans to join everywhere they should only heighten the skills of foreign players with the mentality and drive to challenge the Koreans through tougher practices, greater will.
CatZ's bitching is an implication of his solution: We are gona look good as long as Koreans don't drive. The legit solution should be : let them join, let them win for now, we just need to practice harder, have the will and mentality like the likes of QXC and HuK to not limper in the face of great opposition as CatZ wants cause he's a frail subpar pro-level player. So am i bashing on CatZ? Yes, i am, so what. Am i legitimized to do so, absolutely i think i am.
Am loving all this co-operation between Western and Korean teams lately, I'm sure it makes perfect business sense plus it means we get more and more juicy games in the future.
EPT
...... Shit just got real******
