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On July 22 2011 12:46 moltenlead wrote:
I really liked the OP. It conveyed exactly what I wanted to in the other thread, but a lot more concretely.
I don't know if the part about screwing over the people is as appropriate to the discussion as it could be. There is no system afaik to stop football players from getting washed up if they can't make the big leagues. They use their talents (physical fitness) to do some other jobs such as construction. They aren't earning $300,000 dollars a week, but they will survive.
It's the same thing I think needs to happen here. Players need to have something to fall back on if their dream doesn't come true, which is more than possible. From what I see, many of these players have or are in the process of obtaining university degrees. It is this that I believe would help make a sustainable scene.
The players' associations in football run courses so that players can develop skills they can use in another trade after their career ends. The UEFA Pro licence, for example, is something players can do during their career so they have another job to transition into (even if it's not much of a *job*). That's kind of what I was thinking for eSports, but maybe at a later stage in its evolution when there is a much more stable environment that pro-gamers can transition into. Writing/journalism is probably the most obvious angle.
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So the proper reaction for Korea would be KESPA 2.0 . Easiest way to save their players from "evil foreigners stealing their players and disrespecting their culture", also killing international Esports and denying foreign talent to benefit from korean players. Winter is coming...
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While I get the idea behind your article, I have to disagree with their even needing to be a globalized version of KeSPA or something. Even KeSPA itself at many times has come under fire as being unfair to players.
Players should have contracts and that should be more then enough. If they are contracted to play for the team standard work laws for w/e country they are in should apply. Then you're covered, past that we don't need a net for them if they fail or anything like that. Any player knows the risks when they put all their hopes and dreams into being a professional in a sport that is in it's infancy. Not even professional sports players have a crutch if they go out their first season and get cut for poor performance they are just as much out on the street as anyone else.
The individual makes that choice and takes that risk and that's the way it should be. Everyone has contracts people make their own choices and the world is fine.
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On July 22 2011 12:55 Nerski wrote:
While I get the idea behind your article, I have to disagree with their even needing to be a globalized version of KeSPA or something. Even KeSPA itself at many times has come under fire as being unfair to players.
That's the opposite of what I advocated.
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I agree with completely with this post. It would be nice if the world of sc2 could just get along and agree on everything, but that is just not going to happen. What we all want is for sc2 to grow and become a big sport, and as it grows it becomes a business. It is time we grew up and faced the facts about the eSports world we all want to see.
Good post, and as a side note: Thanks to Alex Garfield and Milkis for the interesting discussion on Weapon of choice today.
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Don´t try to be a cracked writer ....
And really the whole puma incident wasn´t that such a big deal. And really, by the time I got to people being ¨butthurt¨ about Puma´s transfer(not many were, what many people complained is that EG was... too aggressive with their recruiting, which again its not a big deal) you hurt your credibility a lot.
You also mention that the Korean scene is not regulated when it is waay more regulated than the foreigner scene(not as regulated as the BW scene) as it has an association meant to protect the players, which from what I know the foreigner scene doesn´t have.
I agree in that w worldwide e-sports organization is a far off dream atm, and I don´t really see it becoming a reality in the inmediate future. Of course this can and will happen if e-sports reach a point where it becomes more mainstream. I wouldnt discount it, but yeah so far chances that something like that will emerge are pretty slim.
No comments on the defamation thing. I mainly agree.It was on EGs court to respond to the allegations.
As for the last part I will be honest, and I know I may get a lot of hate from this comment.. but e-sports as far as all the hype we on Tl have for it its still a small small market so I think you are getting ahead of yourself. But it has some fair points.
Anyways, I will commend you for your effort on writing this, you make some good points and some assumptions about the whole thing.
Also, while I may seem like a party pooper, I think your Points could have been said in half the words you used. There is no shame in a more simple and concise (you also won´t get tl:dr as much) post, because as I read all of that you just included a lot of .. fluff.
Anyways, while I agree with some of your points I think you are making out more of this whole incident than what it was.But I guess we will see
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Explain it as whatever you want.
It was still subvert and wrong morally, "business", "Dog eat dog" and "Survival of the fittest" can go fuck itself, I don't like it and I don't care what explanation you'd give us.
If that is what you'd like eSports to become I don't want any part of it, nor do I want to spend any money on that.
Yes there needs to be a better standard, yes there needs to be contracts.
But I will never think what EG did was anything but sneaky and underhanded.
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I only wish for a legit transfer market, players can only represent their teams/co-teams and a more talkative "sc2 player association".
But nice writeup, how long did you take?
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On July 22 2011 13:03 Krehlmar wrote:
Explain it as whatever you want.
It was still subvert and wrong morally, "business", "Dog eat dog" and "Survival of the fittest" can go fuck itself, I don't like it and I don't care what explanation you'd give us.
If that is what you'd like eSports to become I don't want any part of it, nor do I want to spend any money on that.
Yes there needs to be a better standard, yes there needs to be contracts.
But I will never think what EG did was anything but sneaky and underhanded.
This post really came out of nowhere...
Nice article dippa!
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On July 22 2011 13:03 Krehlmar wrote:
Explain it as whatever you want.
It was still subvert and wrong morally, "business", "Dog eat dog" and "Survival of the fittest" can go fuck itself, I don't like it and I don't care what explanation you'd give us.
If that is what you'd like eSports to become I don't want any part of it, nor do I want to spend any money on that.
Yes there needs to be a better standard, yes there needs to be contracts.
But I will never think what EG did was anything but sneaky and underhanded.
This is the nature of the business world mate, and eSports (to sponsors, players and teams) is a business at the professional level. You got your opinions and they're clearly very strong, but reality comes in eventually.
Excellent article dippa, look forward to more from you.
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On July 22 2011 12:30 Invoker wrote:I like Koreans a lot. And I respect their culture and customs without holding any preconceived notions of how they should act. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:03 k!llua wrote:
Anything purporting to be "professional" cannot exist on a system of handshakes and verbal agreements.
But I also completely agree with this quote. This is what every employer should know.
The biggest issue that needs to be addressed, which Milkis touched on, was that right now in 2011, is similar to what KeSPA did in the BW scene in 2003. They wanted to provide contracts for the players.
But look where they are now - KeSPA has an iron-grip on the players & coaches to almost slave like conditions in their contracts and a free agency where the pro is stripped of his license if the deal falls through.
When Koreans decided to form a player's association for SC2, it was huge precedence - they elected a member/player/coach to represent the players' own interests.
It is well documented that SC2 is not thriving in a BW-dominated Korea (with teams like fOu struggling "to find their next meal" according to FXOBoSs), and the teams have a collected mentality that they will get the big sponsors in due time.
If what Coach Lee has said is true, then what EG has essentially done is force the SC2 Players Association to have contracts (things the Korean SC2 proteams wanted to avoid due to KeSPA-like conditions) this early in the growth of the Korean SC2 scene. And if history repeats itself the Player's Association for SC2 will become KeSPA 2.
"Worst" case scenario is, which is relative depending on the viewpoint, is that the majority of Korean SC2 Pros get contracted by foreign teams. This could very well snowball into Korean SC2 Teams disappearing due to lack of players, which means less viewers for GSL, which means GSL/GSTL disappears due to lack of money/interest, which ultimately will lead to a nonexistent SC2 scene in Korea and Brood War lives on.
Perhaps I am completely off on my assessment of the situation, but as a longtime Brood War fan that followed the Korean ESPORTS scene, am I being overly paranoid or is there at least some cause for concern for the dark path this is leading the Koreans?
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On July 22 2011 12:53 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
So the proper reaction for Korea would be KESPA 2.0 . Easiest way to save their players from "evil foreigners stealing their players and disrespecting their culture", also killing international Esports and denying foreign talent to benefit from korean players. Winter is coming...
Oh don´t be so overmelodramatic. If something like this kills international e-sports then it wasn´t standing too strong anyways. And well, before we start saying stuff like this we should wait until things calm down and see what koreans do
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On July 22 2011 12:42 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:34 Milkis wrote:
I think one of the points I really failed to bring out was that it *is* unprofessional for SC2 in Korea to not have contracts. I just wanted to provide the background on why that was the case, and I guess it didn't go through very well. In no way does the Koreans do not want contracts -- this is what they want to aim for as the SC2 scene grows.
So I do apologize for butchering that. Very, Very, badly. You went up against a guy that has professional PR as part of his job. And yes, what usually happens when a professional goes up against an amateur happened. I wouldn't even give it a second thought. The community's view of you hasn't changed.
I can second that, you represented the Korean's cultural side of things just fine!
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Thank you for this course in "buisness in e-sports" and "how to do modern PR".
This story shows pretty much what happens in a buisness environment without some form of regulation to enforce some kind of fair play.
From what I understood, from a buisness standpoint EG was in their right to approach Puma and make an offer. Was it "honorable" to approach withtout talking to the team ? No, but then again, how many players had been approached by other teams before Puma and that we don't ( and probably never will ) know about ?
EG messed up on the PR side by not preparing in advance a statement in case the story would ( and usually will ) break out in order to make their stance clear. The quantas case is one of the best cases that demonstrate what happens.
For the media case, some professionnal media companies are usually bound to a "journalism council" that sets rules in order to enforce neutrality and verifiable facts in the stories that are published.
Community sites are not bound to such boundaries, the role of enforcing quality journalism in this case is usually managed by either an Head Editor ( or group of senior editors ) or the community itself. And with the speed news come and go on the internet. Its not uncommon to see stories that pop up and get updated when extra information comes in. In that situation, I believe Milkis did a good job in updating as soon as the info was available.
Maybe a recommandation when a similar story would be held is to specify at the end of the article a note saying that : "more info is to come as x and y have been requested for comment " so that ppl dont jump to conclusions too quickly
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On July 22 2011 13:09 Maynarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:03 Krehlmar wrote:
Explain it as whatever you want.
It was still subvert and wrong morally, "business", "Dog eat dog" and "Survival of the fittest" can go fuck itself, I don't like it and I don't care what explanation you'd give us.
If that is what you'd like eSports to become I don't want any part of it, nor do I want to spend any money on that.
Yes there needs to be a better standard, yes there needs to be contracts.
But I will never think what EG did was anything but sneaky and underhanded. This is the nature of the business world mate, and eSports (to sponsors, players and teams) is a business at the professional level. You got your opinions and they're clearly very strong, but reality comes in eventually.
Not at all, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapping_up
What went on here, if it is as claimed (EG approached Puma directly), would result in fines and bans of various sorts in other sports. If you think it's acceptable, then what do you think of rules against such actions in other (professional) sports?
It's just wrong. Nothing to it.
I'm just tired of people defending the moral demise of eSports... what happend to all this talk about "The greatest community!" and all that? There was no honour in this.
Also saying it is bullshit and morally faux does not mean I'm saying it was stupid or un-economical. I just think it was wrong and evidently the law does aswell.
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On July 22 2011 13:09 Maynarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:03 Krehlmar wrote:
Explain it as whatever you want.
It was still subvert and wrong morally, "business", "Dog eat dog" and "Survival of the fittest" can go fuck itself, I don't like it and I don't care what explanation you'd give us.
If that is what you'd like eSports to become I don't want any part of it, nor do I want to spend any money on that.
Yes there needs to be a better standard, yes there needs to be contracts.
But I will never think what EG did was anything but sneaky and underhanded. This is the nature of the business world mate, and eSports (to sponsors, players and teams) is a business at the professional level. You got your opinions and they're clearly very strong, but reality comes in eventually. Excellent article dippa, look forward to more from you.
Well the thing is that those guys make business off us so yeah while you are right that business are sometimes ruthless deals, that doesn´t mean we have to shrug it off just because its ¨business¨.
LOL, I still think it was a dick move but overall people are acting as if EG had commited genocide or something, my guess is that had EG contacted TSL they wouldn´t have had any problem with them getting Puma(in the end this was a decision from Puma).
But I don´t really like the ¨its the way it is, either take it or leave it¨ attitude that some people have shown.
In the end, I think both sides screwed up in some way.
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On July 22 2011 13:09 Maynarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:03 Krehlmar wrote:
Explain it as whatever you want.
It was still subvert and wrong morally, "business", "Dog eat dog" and "Survival of the fittest" can go fuck itself, I don't like it and I don't care what explanation you'd give us.
If that is what you'd like eSports to become I don't want any part of it, nor do I want to spend any money on that.
Yes there needs to be a better standard, yes there needs to be contracts.
But I will never think what EG did was anything but sneaky and underhanded. This is the nature of the business world mate, and eSports (to sponsors, players and teams) is a business at the professional level. You got your opinions and they're clearly very strong, but reality comes in eventually. Excellent article dippa, look forward to more from you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapping_up
This is pretty much exactly what happened and most professional sports leagues don't allow it.
EDIT: Beat to the punch!
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Nice article, it does seem like contracts are the way of the future after reading this and listening to woc.
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Really great article. It's nice to see something focused on the practical reality of this situation instead of more drama.
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EPT
