EPT
Have a girl, don't have a girl, who cares! It'll help promote the growth of e-sports, etc. etc.!
About some troubles (SlayerS_Jessica) - Page 40
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Whenever you hit post in this thread, think long and hard. Are you showing the proper amount of respect? If that is not the case, do not hit the post button. | ||
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Klamity
United States994 Posts
Have a girl, don't have a girl, who cares! It'll help promote the growth of e-sports, etc. etc.! | ||
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
The best part about this whole thing is that I bet NONE of the people spewing hate would have the balls to go and say these comments to Jessica at MLG or in the GOM studio in person. | ||
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iLikeYourStylez
United States23 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:24 toadyy wrote: Yet again you are missing the argument here, SlayerS can recruit who ever they want, I'm not suggesting that they are banned from recruiting people with potential. But they are puting this out there as helping female gamers. When it is just demeaning the whole process, by claiming there is some invisible male opression in SC2 because a few idiots posted some offensive pictures. I dunno, I just answered the argument of "not deserving" you mentioned in your original response. You said she didn't deserve it and all i said was that, "yes she doesn't deserve it but that doesn't mean the community has to try to ruin her life with terrible anti's" If it's about how "demeaning" it is for her to get special treatment, my opinion is that it doesn't matter, and that's solely my opinion. I'm not sexist nor do i think that women are "less capable" than men in SC2, I just think that there are less female gamers than male gamers. Maybe they're just not interested in that kind of stuff, who knows, but i feel like SlayerS way of doing it is fine. It's like the government injecting money into the economy. You find one random female gamer who has potential and let her into a prestigious team so that she can show that females can be GSL champs. It's like what they said on SOTG that Koreans are more likely to watch the NASL if there is a Korean in the brackets and that foreigners are more likely to watch the GSL if there's a foreigner competing. I'm guessing that's their idea backing up all of this, that females would be more willing to participate and have a women's league if there were more women playing now. But either way, all I'm saying is that I don't see how this is "demeaning." I can see how people will see that it's sexist and that we're lowering our standards but I don't think it's like that. It's just a fact that there aren't as many female pro-gamers as there are male pro-gamers and it would make sense that there would be less females inclined to go pro. If SlayerS got a female pro scene going by showing off Eve and her skills, maybe there would be more female gamers. And if it's about Jessica's response by acting like it's "male oppression," then I agree with you in that it is "invisible" in that it isn't there but i can also see why Jessica would flip out about it because people are pissed off at the fact that Eve got in based on her "gender." and instinctively if one gender got "special treatment" it would make sense that the other gender would be angrya bout that. I guess Jessica jumped to conclusions and thought all this was just guys being mad about a girl getting special treatment. My original post wasn't arguing for or against Jessica, it was for Eve. Anyways, just as a disclaimer, I mean no hostility or animosity in this discussion and I just ask that you have some patience with me because I firmly support Eve in this situation, but that does not mean i support Jessica by proxy. | ||
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Silentskyca
United States3 Posts
On July 22 2011 12:45 exittlight wrote: It's not unfair to guys, it's unfair to girls. It's seems like she's saying girls need special treatment because there is no way they can compete with guys. If she shows me scientific proof that females can't compete on the same level as males in RTS games without training wheels, and special treatment then I'll agree with her. But, by that same token if this was true it would be pointless for a female to compete with males to begin with. Jessica is basically saying it's a given that females are inferior to men in SC 2, but they can at least be "competitive," and provide entertainment value so why not throw one into the mix for this reason. Yeah, not insulting at all. | ||
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
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TERRANLOL
United States626 Posts
I really appreciate you coming here to talk to us and telling us what happened. I am a SlayerS fan and a fan of boxer. I never actually watched Brood War games to know what BoxeR was like in his prime, but I love his passion for the game and the way he plays. I, too, am trying to become good at Starcraft 2 (though I won't say that I am trying to become pro simply because I don't think I am good enough). The amount of time BoxeR practices and what I understand about what he goes through while practicing is inspiring to me and altogether it is the reason I am going to continue to practice after I finish writing this post. I probably practice around 4 hours per day, but I hope to do more. I hope to see BoxeR do well every time he plays and even if he loses his match I don't lose faith in him. It sounds like you're going through an awful lot, but you should know that I've thought you were a hero even before I knew you were defending Slayers_Eve for what she is going through. Just for what you were doing for BoxeR while he was trying to practice back in GSL open season 2 I admire you. But now what you have done for SlayerS in general I am in awe. You are a wonderful person and I hope what some foreign people message you on twitter doesn't come to be what you recognize foreigners for as a whole. As for SlayerS_Eve, I hope for her the best of luck. I know she and all of you are going through a lot right now and I hope you don't let it get to your heads and are just able to focus on Starcraft. I've been watching BoxeR and all of SlayerS since they came in to the scene and I eagerly await for when they become dominant. gl hf | ||
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WilliamDecker
Canada43 Posts
I do agree this is drama, but it's not the victim or the manager creating the drama. It's us, the community. If you're tired of drama then talk to your fellow Starcraft player and no one else. Lastly those criticizing the skill level of Eve and think that she's undeserving of their roster slot here is something to chew on. A lot of foreign fans want to be taken seriously by the Koreans. It's the ideal of our scene to be brought to the spotlight and shown that foreigners are actually good players. This is exactly the idea of what Jessica is doing for the female gamers. Everyone starts somewhere. We also all know that those foreigners living in South Korea dedicated to becoming better SC2 players have showed vastly improved results due to the structured training environment, and the availability of such a concentrated amount of high level players. Bringing a female into the SlayerS house is exactly that. She got her golden ticket from apparently winning an amateur tournament. Good for her. She probably has a lot of the other things the teams look at. If you've been paying attention to any of the information that SlayerS gives out on how players come to their team it isn't just top level players who've already made it. It's about creating a solid working and playing environment. Anyone who has been on a team with a "cancer" understands that 1 bad player who the team doesn't like can really hinder the teams progress. SlayerS has shown that with a lot of hard work and dedication they can produce results. They get it. Respect to the professionalism of the managers and players for their ongoing professionalism. | ||
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HiveONE
United States9 Posts
I do not live in Korea so I can't respond to Jessica's legal action that she has taken. I do realize that Eve is the first female progamer for SC2 and I will give Jessica the benefit of the doubt. I assume that she is trying her hardest to protect this young girl from public scrutiny and I commend her in doing so. My issue doesn't involve whether or not Jessica overreacted or reacted appropriately. The problem I have with this article is Jessica's choice of Eve. She is quoted saying she chose Eve based on her skills and looks. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=243800 When Eve first was announced on the team she was a gold level player. Let me repeat this. She is a gold level Korean player (currently in diamond now). There are two things wrong with this sentence. gold league and Korea do NOT roll off the tongue. It doesn't roll off easily, not even at all. Korea is still the powerhouse of Starcraft. Not just SC1 BW but SC2 as well. The "foreign scene" is really shrinking that gap but they just quite aren't there yet in my opinion. How can you possibly choose a gold level Korean player and then say the decision was based on her skills, looks and potential? Potential is hard to measure but when you are looking in the gold leagues for a budding SC2 female programer I come to the conclusion she was chosen in large part due to her looks. I must apologize but I laughed when Jessica says that a female gamer must use toddler steps and claw her way up to the high and almighty masters league. First she says this, "...it is no mean feat for a female to reach Master level while laddering against males. It is difficult for the average male player, too." Okay, you kind of said it's hard for both genders to get into masters. Let's read more. " If you condemn her to be unworthy for not becoming a Master in under a month, how would female players anywhere ever even attempt to make it in Starcraft?" Okay this is actually a decent point. Female SC2 players are in the minority. If we scrutinize them and nip them in the bud too early it will stunt the female growth in the SC2 scene even further. Then this gem comes from Jessica's mouth, " She is here to make the game more entertaining and to show that unlike in Starcraft 1, female players can easily do well in Starcraft 2." Wait a minute. You just proved my point. There is no advantage due to gender and, "female players can easily do well in Starcraft2." So why did she even start ranting about female players playing in the mostly male league system? Get real. There are female masters players out there. Yes the scene is HUGELY dominated by male players and they have a good head start. But let's get back to reality. An RTS takes strategy, planning, cunning, and skill to play at a high level. This is not a physically based game we are talking about. We are talking about intuition, ability to get cold hard facts from scouting and knowing what it means, reaction timing and skill that comes from repetitive motion practice. How is her being a female ANY different from say a male who has never played an RTS game and decided to play SC2 as his first RTS game? Would that "newbie" male player have an advantage over the female player? I'm genuinely curious to hear Jessica's response to that question. Lastly, I want to make it very clear this is not an attack on Eve. I wish Eve the best of luck in her progaming career and would love to watch her play at a very high level. I am only criticizing the manager of the team and how she went about this. If her whole goal was to simply get a pretty face in front of the camera and show the whole world they took an average female player and trained her to compete in a high skill environment to be an idle for other SC2 female gamers...why not just come out and say that? I think it's silly to throw in this "gender gap" debate and on top of that try and tell everyone to consider her a progamer when she hasn't proven herself yet. In my opinion this is just a slap in the face to skilled female gamers that are actually wanting or trying to find a way to crack into the pro scene. TL DR: Eve is awesome got no beef. I'm willing to give Jessica the benefit of the doubt about her legal action in Korea and reaction to the public. I think Jessica is using silly excuses to explain why she chose Eve to be on the team. I'm rooting for Eve to become a successful female gamer, but can't help but wonder if there were more deserving and skilled female gamers out there to choose from (This is a reflection on Jessica's decision not Eve as a person). | ||
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IntotheGloaming
United States12 Posts
"Jessica is basically saying it's a given that females are inferior to men in SC 2, but they can at least be "competitive," and provide entertainment value so why not throw one in the mix for this reason. Yeah not insulting at all." I don't think she's necessarily saying that. I think the argument for inequality goes something like - the reason for different ability levels is not the true potential of the person, but the amount to which that person had the opportunity to be exposed to the sort of environment that would foster, encourage and include the participant in whatever activity said race or gender is supposedly worse at. i.e. She probably didn't grow up playing tons of rts games AND when she does transcend normal gender roles and enter a world that is not traditionally hers she gets . . . this. SlayerS, I'm sorry about that. One idea for a solution the problem of inequality is to go out of your way to help and provide support for someone from said group. Someone who's ability to interest and inspire those who have been shown little interest and given little inspiration may be greater than their number of GSL Code S championships. I almost never post, but I do want to say that having quit SC1 back when Elky was just on the rise, the combination of hearing first about the release of SC2 and then later that Boxer would come back to play made me about as happy as any nerd-hobby ever will in this life. And that's saying alot :D <3 SC <3 SlayerS Boxer Fai-Ting! | ||
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Grantiere
United States129 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:22 HiveONE wrote: but can't help but wonder if there were more deserving and skilled female gamers out there to choose from (This is a reflection on Jessica's decision not Eve as a person). Isn't it possible that Jessica is in a better position to determine this than you? And there are far more criteria than "deserving and skilled." | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:22 HiveONE wrote: I've read the OP several times. I've walked away from it and held off what I wanted to say in hopes I would change my mind or see a different view. Nothing has changed so here it goes. I do not live in Korea so I can't respond to Jessica's legal action that she has taken. I do realize that Eve is the first female progamer for SC2 and I will give Jessica the benefit of the doubt. I assume that she is trying her hardest to protect this young girl from public scrutiny and I commend her in doing so. My issue doesn't involve whether or not Jessica overreacted or reacted appropriately. The problem I have with this article is Jessica's choice of Eve. She is quoted saying she chose Eve based on her skills and looks. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=243800 When Eve first was announced on the team she was a gold level player. Let me repeat this. She is a gold level Korean player (currently in diamond now). There are two things wrong with this sentence. gold league and Korea do NOT roll off the tongue. It doesn't roll off easily, not even at all. Korea is still the powerhouse of Starcraft. Not just SC1 BW but SC2 as well. The "foreign scene" is really shrinking that gap but they just quite aren't there yet in my opinion. How can you possibly choose a gold level Korean player and then say the decision was based on her skills, looks and potential? Potential is hard to measure but when you are looking in the gold leagues for a budding SC2 female programer I come to the conclusion she was chosen in large part due to her looks. I must apologize but I laughed when Jessica says that a female gamer must use toddler steps and claw her way up to the high and almighty masters league. First she says this, "...it is no mean feat for a female to reach Master level while laddering against males. It is difficult for the average male player, too." Okay, you kind of said it's hard for both genders to get into masters. Let's read more. " If you condemn her to be unworthy for not becoming a Master in under a month, how would female players anywhere ever even attempt to make it in Starcraft?" Okay this is actually a decent point. Female SC2 players are in the minority. If we scrutinize them and nip them in the bud too early it will stunt the female growth in the SC2 scene even further. Then this gem comes from Jessica's mouth, " She is here to make the game more entertaining and to show that unlike in Starcraft 1, female players can easily do well in Starcraft 2." Wait a minute. You just proved my point. There is no advantage due to gender and, "female players can easily do well in Starcraft2." So why did she even start ranting about female players playing in the mostly male league system? Get real. There are female masters players out there. Yes the scene is HUGELY dominated by male players and they have a good head start. But let's get back to reality. An RTS takes strategy, planning, cunning, and skill to play at a high level. This is not a physically based game we are talking about. We are talking about intuition, ability to get cold hard facts from scouting and knowing what it means, reaction timing and skill that comes from repetitive motion practice. How is her being a female ANY different from say a male who has never played an RTS game and decided to play SC2 as his first RTS game? Would that "newbie" male player have an advantage over the female player? I'm genuinely curious to hear Jessica's response to that question. Lastly, I want to make it very clear this is not an attack on Eve. I wish Eve the best of luck in her progaming career and would love to watch her play at a very high level. I am only criticizing the manager of the team and how she went about this. If her whole goal was to simply get a pretty face in front of the camera and show the whole world they took an average female player and trained her to compete in a high skill environment to be an idle for other SC2 female gamers...why not just come out and say that? I think it's silly to throw in this "gender gap" debate and on top of that try and tell everyone to consider her a progamer when she hasn't proven herself yet. In my opinion this is just a slap in the face to skilled female gamers that are actually wanting or trying to find a way to crack into the pro scene. TL DR: Eve is awesome got no beef. I'm willing to give Jessica the benefit of the doubt about her legal action in Korea and reaction to the public. I think Jessica is using silly excuses to explain why she chose Eve to be on the team. I'm rooting for Eve to become a successful female gamer, but can't help but wonder if there were more deserving and skilled female gamers out there to choose from (This is a reflection on Jessica's decision not Eve as a person). Eve was a Diamond level player with her old account. Her new SlayerS account is Gold because of placement and ladder lock. Same reason why Destiny's Korean account is still Platinum. SlayerS likes to take risk and scout out potential talent to train for the future. This is the approach Boxer used with MMA and Alicia. People doubted Boxer when he started his own team from basically nothing but his reputation. Now, SlayerS is one of the top teams in Korea. At this moment, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to believe that Eve is not going to be the next star in a year. | ||
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kazie
258 Posts
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HiveONE
United States9 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:29 Grantiere wrote: Isn't it possible that Jessica is in a better position to determine this than you? And there are far more criteria than "deserving and skilled." Pretty sure I said "if there were" Of course Jessica is in a better position to determine this than me. Just find it hard to believe they went with a diamond league (and good for her!) in Korea. Pretty sure there are some amazing master league female Korean players is all I'm saying. | ||
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kunstderfugue
Mexico375 Posts
I think the momentum that is needed for girl progamers is better off if it comes from the players themselves; and not from the team. I understand that the society will do whatever is possible to stop a female progamer from doing so because it hurts the status quo that it supposedly needs to survive (Correct me if im wrong here, i just want to say that society or, in other words, people, block their attempts) - However, i believe that if female progamers really love doing what they do, they will overcome this odds and thus become a very good progamer with a story worth of remembrance. If they achieve success, having done it themselves, it will motivate more female progamers to go for it, and it will also open the minds of the people, and hopefully convince them that female progamers are a force to be reckoned. So my appeal to the female progamer is: Go ahead and do it, you don't need any special amount of support to succeed. Maybe all this is just wishful thinking. Hopefully not. Edit: I just realized i don't know about tossgirl's way to the pro scene | ||
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HiveONE
United States9 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:35 denzelz wrote: Eve was a Diamond level player with her old account. Her new SlayerS account is Gold because of placement and ladder lock. Same reason why Destiny's Korean account is still Platinum. SlayerS likes to take risk and scout out potential talent to train for the future. This is the approach Boxer used with MMA and Alicia. People doubted Boxer when he started his own team from basically nothing but his reputation. Now, SlayerS is one of the top teams in Korea. At this moment, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to believe that Eve is not going to be the next star in a year. Thank you for clarifying! Jessica's quote in her original post says something similar to her saying that Eve is taking unwarranted assault at being in the gold league. (She is diamond league) I took this as Jessica confirming her being in gold and then updating that she is now in diamond. I was wrong. However, since she is still in diamond and not high masters I stand by my original post. I have no idea how good Eve can be and I wish her the best of luck. Re-read my post a little more closely next time. As for there being ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to believe Eve is not going to be the next star in a year.....really? You can't think of any? List her current tournament accomplishments please. Could she be a break out star? HELL YEA!! Could she be the breakthrough female progamers need to start playing this game more? HELL YEA!! But these are all dependent on how she does and currently she has very little accomplishments to say that there is zero reason to doubt her becoming a star in just one short year. | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:46 HiveONE wrote: Thank you for clarifying! Jessica's quote in her original post says something similar to her saying that Eve is taking unwarranted assault at being in the gold league. (She is diamond league) I took this as Jessica confirming her being in gold and then updating that she is now in diamond. I was wrong. However, since she is still in diamond and not high masters I stand by my original post. I have no idea how good Eve can be and I wish her the best of luck. Re-read my post a little more closely next time. As for there being ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to believe Eve is not going to be the next star in a year.....really? You can't think of any? List her current tournament accomplishments please. Could she be a break out star? HELL YEA!! Could she be the breakthrough female progamers need to start playing this game more? HELL YEA!! But these are all dependent on how she does and currently she has very little accomplishments to say there is zero reason for her to be a star in just one short year. I merely stated that we don't know the future. No one saw MMA or Alicia to be the powerhouse players that they are today except for Boxer. We just have no idea how she will do in 12-18 months but everyone is already making predictions for her to fail. Are we going to start a thread for every player that a major Korean team recruits and scrutinize their history in order to make 200+ page threads? | ||
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Grantiere
United States129 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:39 HiveONE wrote: Pretty sure I said "if there were" Of course Jessica is in a better position to determine this than me. Just find it hard to believe they went with a gold league...who turned into a diamond league (and good for her!) in Korea. Pretty sure there are some amazing master league female Korean players is all I'm saying. Maybe (but you don't know at all, do you?), but if they're not participating in tournaments or contacting her directly, how is she supposed to know? And I can't help but wonder if there were others that Slayers approached, but turned it down because they didn't want the notoriety, or didn't want to move, or didn't want to improve, or were busy with school, or whose parents rejected it, or any number of other possibilities. All you see is the outcome, and not the process, and with exactly no knowledge of the situation, you feel you're in any position at all to comment on Jessica's decision-making or judgment? | ||
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
Gl Jessica and Eve. TL will always support you guys. | ||
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Silentskyca
United States3 Posts
Forget all of the demeaning comments and the woman can't play as well as men crap, and the comments about her skill level. Just say you're going to train her up. She can prove herself when she's ready to compete at a pro level. No one would complain then. | ||
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Attilanator
United States154 Posts
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