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United States23455 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:13 Krehlmar wrote:
It's a buissness world I guess but this is exactly like MC cheesing White-Ra in a the finals...
I don't give two shits that it's playing to win, sure, he won he got his price, but I sure as hell won't be a fan of the style or MC after that.
Same as with this kind of lowering my expectations of EG because if they'd be sure of their own company and clan they wouldn't had gone so subvert... just contact Puma AND TSL Administration.
Hopefully TSL or the likes can make better contracts in the future.
And yeah you can consider players talents and themselves as products at times, they're still people but contracts in NBA, NFL, etc. work like this. It's something they sign themselves.
Lastly... I hope EG gets into the GSTL now and kick some ass in a while!
\
EG in GSTL would probably only do a bit better than FXO and that's mainly because Puma is better than Twilight. Idra would need to go back to his Korean training schedule to work back to how he was before, and even then, the GSL has gotten five times better since he left. The current EG lineup really isn't stronger than any of the current GSTL teams except for FXO and maybe the new TSL. TSL still has more depth of good players than EG, but EG now has an incredible ace if he doesn't regress.
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I lost the little ammount of respect I had left for EG. Actions like this makes the esport scene in the western world look very unprofessional.
Coach Lee fighting!
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On July 21 2011 23:15 YYY wrote:
isnt this good news? ._.
yes.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:16 Tenks wrote:
In other words Tyler saying EG has some of the worst business practices was 100% true
Where did he say this? Interested to read/hear.
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All these comparisons to companies / employees, etc. seems nonsensical. In 90% of employment, it is an at-will contract - you are free to leave, and the company is free to fire you at any point. That's why recruiters and other companies don't need to contact your management.
In sports (and presumably, in eSports), there are employment contracts for a reason. PuMa was wearing a TSL shirt and representing TSL - why do we think that he wasn't under contract? TSL's comments seems to indicate that PuMa decided to take EG's offer and, in order to do so, ask TSL to release him from his TSL contract.
The reason other leagues (and sports) prevent this sort of tampering is self-evident - things like this is a clear case of being unable to unring a bell. Players are hired for personal performance and performance can't be compelled - meaning an unhappy player is one that is doing less than their best. So, if player X from team A gets an offer directly from team B, this puts team A into a shitty position:
1) They either have to release player X to team B and lose a good player.
2) They can match team B's offer, but then this might encourage other players to solicit other team offers just to increase their own benefits - resulting in an untenable rising-tide situation.
3) They can refuse to release player X and risk player X underperforming.
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I think this is good for e-sports and will further the structures of the way player contracts are built. The added publicity doesn't hurt and neither does the added strength of "foreign" teams... I don't see how anyone can get butt hurt over this if you're just a fan of ESPORTS in general. Teams will have to get more thorough with their contracts and player negotiations: penalize players in some manner for breaking out of their contractual obligations and on the flip side offer incentives for constant improvements and good tournament results. Why would anyone be upset with a player who chooses to go where he can make more money and attend more events in which he can conversely earn even more money, especially when he's not bound by an agreement.
Let's say hypothetically that he was bound by a contract and is only making 30k a year (just throwing a number) and another team comes along and says we'll give you 40k a year, allow you to attend more tournaments, and let you keep most of the prize money.... there is NO incentive other than loyalty and possible dent in reputation to not take the better deal and break your current contract. E-sports is not like other sports in terms of financial structure, it's still constantly evolving and will not reach any form of maturity until E-sports itself reaches some sort of a stable baseline. You can't compare a soccer player or a basketball player who just decides to leave a team; there are pretty big legal and financial ramifications that are structured in from the get-go when the player signs after his/her agent negotiates a deal... when a possible contract break can cost you an income of 15m/year over 4 years with a very real chance of having to pay back certain % of past wages, that player will think twice before doing something like that. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
All I can say is that this is good for the evolution of e-sports and better for the players in the long run.
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You smell that randy? Smells like a shitstorm a brewing.
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lmao at all the people saying they lose respect for EG when no one even knows what the hell happened, aside from a twitter comment from the TSL coach and a 2 korean articles.
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On July 21 2011 23:16 Tenks wrote:
In other words Tyler saying EG has some of the worst business practices was 100% true
Tyler is always right
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On July 21 2011 23:15 YYY wrote:
isnt this good news? ._.
For EG it is.
so how are they supposed to practice if puma doesn't speak english?
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On July 21 2011 23:12 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:05 jiveturkey wrote:On July 21 2011 23:00 Copenap wrote:On July 21 2011 22:48 meadbert wrote:
So in the real world when someone wants to hire me they call me, not my current manager. Why should it be different in esports? If Puma had some contractual obligation then he would need to negotiate out of the contract. What is it with management acting as if they own their employees? That is not how it operates in America at all. 1. TSL made it possible for Puma to become this good and basicly paid for his "qualification". Now that finally that pays dividends EG comes a picks him up instead putting the money in developing own talents. 2. What's even worse imo (if that is all true, I'm still waiting for an official statement), you don't approach a 19yr old boy who's probably abroad for the first time and make him an offer a kid can't really comprehend. Wait for him to return home to korea and contact him and his parents while also informing TSL of this move, that would have been the better way. We still don't know everything but the op states that they contacted him while the tournament wasn't even finished and that's not responsible at all imo, even if I certainly hope he took this offer home and discussed it throroughly with his parents. 1. If a team wants to stipulate that they have the exclusive rights to a player's 'talent' if they are the people that cultivated that talent, then they need to put that in a contract. Plain and simple. 2. Really? At 19 people are not able to comprehend offers? I know that I was married, had a full time job, had an apartment, was paying insurance, healthcare bills, and picking a major in schhool that determines my life direction at the age of 19. That's plenty old, and definitely old enough for the parents to be left out of it. That is, unless there is some strange cultural thing I'm missing where Koreans feel that 19 is still a kid. If that's the case, that's sad. You =/= everyone else. Don't make extrapolations based on the sample size [of you]. It's obviously all relative. Not to mention the huge cultural divide you're overlooking. An older guy such as Scoots (or whoever/however many were involved in this decision making process), who is in a position of responsibility and power, should know better. End of story, end of thread.If what has been revealed is correct, it's clear EG cares about the interests of EG, and those interests alone. Not admirable. Not good for E-SPORTS. Not setting a good example. Two thumbs way down. There are better ways to go about finding top players. If the contract was indeed mind blistering, sitting down with the coach and player and doing things correctly would have yielded the same results--the TSL manager would still have been upset, but at least things were done professionally and respectfully.
Not every1 has integrity, nothing to do with age really.
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Hey, so my question is was Puma contractually obligated to TSL in anyway? If not I don't see what the deal is, and it seems like TSL is just raging that they didn't lock him up a long time ago.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On July 21 2011 23:14 twittertrans wrote:
there seems to be a lack of translations from pro twitters at this time so i will do my best to bring some translations
In responce to TSL_Clide's "dirty money" tweet,
fiveoone501 신지수 @clidekj 선수님들이 더 힘내셨으면좋겠어요..ㅠ
fiveoone501 a former MBC B teamer replied with "please lend him some of your strength"
(implying that puma needs support during this time)
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fiveoone501 신지수
@TSLpuma 선수님..꼭 가서 잘 하셔야해요^^ 잘하실꺼라믿지만..아프지말고 스트레스도 많이받지마시구요~중요한건 건강입니다!!응원할께요^^화이팅!
he also tweeted to puma "puma, you have to go and do well! even though it may hurt, even though it may cause you stress the most important thing is your heath. i will be cheering for you. fighting"
----------------------
MaeLinE2 김혜린
@clidekj ㅠㅠ...
user maelin a playxp and former mbcgame partner had only this to say to clide about his "dirty money" tweet. those little T's being crying eye emoticons.
and also to puma she tweeted
MaeLinE2 김혜린
@TSLpuma 이렇게 결정 된게 결코 나쁜 선택이 아니었으면 좋겠네요...화이팅입니다!
i hope that this decision you made wasnt a bad one. fighting!
-------------------------------
fruitdealer kimwonki winner of the first GSL had this to say about puma
fruitdealar kimwonki
머리큰푸마
18 hours ago
"big headed puma"
Actually you got the first tweet wrong. He isn't asking Clide & others to lend Puma strength but just encouraging the TSL players to feel better.
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On July 21 2011 23:13 Krehlmar wrote:
It's a buissness world I guess but this is exactly like MC cheesing White-Ra in a the finals...
I don't give two shits that it's playing to win, sure, he won he got his price, but I sure as hell won't be a fan of the style or MC after that.
Same as with this kind of lowering my expectations of EG because if they'd be sure of their own company and clan they wouldn't had gone so subvert... just contact Puma AND TSL Administration.
Hopefully TSL or the likes can make better contracts in the future.
And yeah you can consider players talents and themselves as products at times, they're still people but contracts in NBA, NFL, etc. work like this. It's something they sign themselves.
Lastly... I hope EG gets into the GSTL now and kick some ass in a while!
Why are you even comparing MC White Ra they are two different things. At least make an NBA or NFL analogy or whatever lol. But I do agree EG should have contacted TSL as well. If Puma wanted to leave and his contracted expired he's free to go anyway. Not sure why you would keep it under the radar. It sort of becomes poaching of players.
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On July 21 2011 23:16 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:15 DeSam wrote:
now coach Lee will be complaining to all the other korean teams, those teams will be afraid of there players and this hurts esports, good move EG your really geniuses A team paying a salary to a player is KILLING ESPORTS!
Korean teams being wary of sending their players to participate in foreign events just might though.
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On July 21 2011 23:14 zev318 wrote:
from what scoots have said in the past, and what puma put on his twitter. i think this happened:
EG approaches puma at NASL ro4 to gauge interest in joining a foreign team
Puma says he's interested
EG makes an offer
Puma flys back to korea, talks with his teammates/others (unsure if manager was included, but i dont see how he wasnt)
Puma chooses to accept the deal
TSL can not match or maybe Puma just wants to leave anyways
TSL has no choice, decides to release Puma
Puma signs with EG
TSL manager flips tables （╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ and tweets about EG
all assumptions
Promoting this post simply because when I read the bolded line that EXACTLY summed up how it seems like the whole thing has gone down and I laughed. Now I won't be able to get it out of my head. Sorry Coach Lee ;;
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On July 21 2011 23:16 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:09 Woshie wrote:On July 21 2011 23:00 jiveturkey wrote:
I like how people say that they 'stole' him. As if players are property.
And there is nothing wrong with bypassing management. If they would have gone through TSL as opposed to talking to Puma directly, Puma most likely would not have joined EG because the TSL management would most likely twist the offer in a way that Puma would not want to join. They are desperate to keep their best player.
Talking directly to him allows them to give him the straight up offer. If it's a good enough offer, he'll take it. If not, then he will not. This is a mutually beneficial arrangement and people should be happy for both EG and Puma.
"IMO it takes a fairly scumbag person aka organization to approach PUMA personally like this."
Why? He is a person. If you want to offer a person something, then do it. It makes no sense to go through that person's management. It is not EG's responsibility to talk to the team of a player they are interested in. They are simply interested in the player, and it his that player's obligation to figure things out with his team, which he obviously did. I 100% agree. People need a rude awakening to the real world. In the real world when I'm working for a company and another company wants to hire me they approach me. Not my company. They offer a package and I take it or not. The only reason some sports don't do that is because of a governing body which SC2 does not have. Also it was Puma's decision. He took himself out of TSL as have a few other players of late. So I'm unsure exactly what the situation is there. Maybe nothing is wrong in TSL but it seems odd. My main concern is where is Puma going to live. In EG's American house? Is EG going to get a place in Korea now as well? Is EG going to partner with someone like FXO to give Puma a place to train? \ Because in real life, you work for the company, make money for them and they'll pay you salary. If your company let you keep most (or all) the money you make, and also pay for your expense, find the sponsor, I bet they would be pissed too.
Then your company is retarded.
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On July 21 2011 23:20 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:16 w_Ender_w wrote:On July 21 2011 23:15 DeSam wrote:
now coach Lee will be complaining to all the other korean teams, those teams will be afraid of there players and this hurts esports, good move EG your really geniuses A team paying a salary to a player is KILLING ESPORTS! Korean teams being wary of sending their players to participate in foreign events just might though.
ya cause there's no other way to contact players other than at events...... oh wait （╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
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what in the world? EG didn't talk to the management at all? That's...shady at best, unscrupulous at worst.
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On July 21 2011 23:17 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:16 Tenks wrote:
In other words Tyler saying EG has some of the worst business practices was 100% true Where did he say this? Interested to read/hear.
Said it in a previous Sotg I think. It was in the episode when they came back from hiatus, EP42. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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EPT
