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On July 21 2011 18:38 alexanderzero wrote:
Sounds like the Koreans are being self-centered elitists as usual. What right do they have to get so angry if PuMa was offered a better contract by a non-Korean team? I have a feeling that if Puma had moved to another Korean team, such as oGs or StarTale, this wouldn't be nearly as dramatic.
I will concede, however, that if PuMa is going to be practicing only with foreigners now, that his eSports career is doomed.
Not unless his career is focused around foreign tournaments which I'm guessing it will be.
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On July 21 2011 18:58 enecateReAP wrote:
People are quick to make their insignificant opinions known, nothing you can say will change this, and I think many people are overeacting... x.X;
And yet they are the only opinions that should matter. But maybe you only care what authoritative people think and so you will never become a wise man.
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On July 21 2011 19:00 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:54 Blitz Beat wrote:On July 21 2011 18:50 Seki Santoku wrote:
How can TSL talk about respect, when they have a great player working his tail off and can't get a good contract with HIS needs and wants. Many of the posters here seem to overlook the fact that contracts are not just for the safety of the teams/organisations(so things such as actual poaching wont happen) but also for the players. Contracts help protect the players as well with stability, proper paid with the player's locked in with the numbers and a near myriad number of bonus\player clauses\no trade clause/healthcare etc etc.
To me it seems like EG is showing some of the utmost respect to PuMa,(Giving puma a legitimate contract) ((granted not to TSL)), but TSL and perhaps the Korean SC2 scene in general has not shown this to their players. Players who in many people's eyes work the hardest and deserve the most. TSL is the epitomy of respect. They cater to their players more than any other team in Korea. Their players originally wanted a more relaxed team house: TSL is one of the most relaxed team houses. Coach Lee goes and gets sponsors: Becomes the first team to pay salaries to their top players and then eventually ALL players received salary which includes PuMa. I'm pretty sure that, even though playxp says "everyone is a free agent", there was some existing agreement between PuMa and TSL. you can't be "released" from nothing right? and to get paid, there has to be more than a "you live here you get paid" thing. If what you say is true, then why has TSL lost 4 major players? Clearly, the "epitome" of respect model is not working out, in one way or another.
yeah I agree, i definitely don't think TSL is the epitome of respect right now, because I've also seen a personal conversation of trickster about TSL... something's definitely going on in TSL right now
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On July 21 2011 18:59 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:56 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:52 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:49 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:48 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:47 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:45 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:43 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:41 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:39 Mycl wrote:
[quote]
You generalized an entire country's people saying our relationship in sc2 will be damaged because a few people on the internet are mad. a few people? playxp = sc2 community in korea. LOADS of negative posts on playxp. koreasilver = one guy on TL. it's fact that the view on foreigners/teams have been impacted negatively already. where the hell did i "generalize?" The hell are you talking about, do people never learn? There is always a local minority, then there is a majority that doesn't give a shit. How on Earth is this going to impact foreigners negatively? Do you think Koreans are thick to the point where they think EG = World (presuming they think this is bad business practice at all). they definitely do think this is bad business practice. it is crystal clear if you read korean websites right now. if you don't think a negative impact on the view of a foreign team does not affect the view on foreign teams in general (although the impact will be smaller compared to the former), i don't know what to say to you But I don't give a fuck about what people on the internet say, they're irrelevant and it will die down. Just like all drama. I know exactly what to say to you, and that is that you should spend more time reading various websites because you'll see this bullshit happen all the time. Drama comes and dies just as fast. If you're solely talking about the netizen relation to foreigners then.. uh, so who gives a fuck? If there's one prick who ends up hating everything non Korean because of this he can have fun with that, in the end he's just one little prick voicing his opinion online. so you're whole point is "who gives a fuck?" well this is pointless then.. No, you got it all wrong. My point is that your initial point as pure bullshit from an ignorant perspective. pure bullshit? so i'm saying that it will have a negative impact because people are negatively talking about foreign teams already, and EG more specifically. then you dismiss me because you don't give a fuck about what people say on the internet. what, am I supposed to bring you a printed newspaper with an article about it? guess what, starcraft 2 and e-sports in general is quite closely related to the "internet," and a lot of the things said on the internet actually do relate heavily to what people actually perceive of something relating to starcraft 2. You're not supposed to bring anything because you can't prove this one way or another. One thread of angry netizen does in no way show anything, beyond that there is a portion of that website that is angry. That's it, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't say what the majority of Koreans think, it doesn't say what the people that actually matter think and it absolutely doesn't say what the people who thought the thread was dumb and didn't post in it think. Is this so hard to understand? If you're trying to say that if a few people are angry foreigner/Korean relations or damaged (fuck does this even mean), then sure, a few people are angry. But don't try to make it out like that means anything more than that. it's quite obvious you haven't looked at the responses, but trust me it wasn't one thread. please at least take a look at what i'm talking about before discussing its significance..
Oh for fuck sake, how can you miss the point so many times? You write one sentence that doesn't say anything because you really don't have anything to say, that's becoming quite clear at least.
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On July 21 2011 18:54 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:50 Seki Santoku wrote:
How can TSL talk about respect, when they have a great player working his tail off and can't get a good contract with HIS needs and wants. Many of the posters here seem to overlook the fact that contracts are not just for the safety of the teams/organisations(so things such as actual poaching wont happen) but also for the players. Contracts help protect the players as well with stability, proper paid with the player's locked in with the numbers and a near myriad number of bonus\player clauses\no trade clause/healthcare etc etc.
To me it seems like EG is showing some of the utmost respect to PuMa,(Giving puma a legitimate contract) ((granted not to TSL)), but TSL and perhaps the Korean SC2 scene in general has not shown this to their players. Players who in many people's eyes work the hardest and deserve the most. TSL is the epitomy of respect. They cater to their players more than any other team in Korea. Their players originally wanted a more relaxed team house: TSL is one of the most relaxed team houses. Coach Lee goes and gets sponsors: Becomes the first team to pay salaries to their top players and then eventually ALL players received salary which includes PuMa. I'm pretty sure that, even though playxp says "everyone is a free agent", there was some existing agreement between PuMa and TSL. you can't be "released" from nothing right? and to get paid, there has to be more than a "you live here you get paid" thing.
On the contrary, TSL has lost most of their big guns. Produces no results, and the results they post are by players that arent on the team anymore. You can say TSL is the epitome of respect but one can argue that they stand for a team that is dysfunctional. But thats just based on what I've seen from the team these past few weeks.
There probably is a contract involved but it obviously doesnt mean much. Rain, FD, and Trickster didnt have any trouble getting out of theres.
"Released" can simply mean being released from the team. Doesnt necessarily imply a binding and legal contract. "Player X was released from the team and is now a free agent."
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On July 21 2011 18:59 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:58 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 21 2011 18:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On July 21 2011 18:54 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 21 2011 18:52 tiaz wrote:
I don't understand how EG always seems to wind up in these kinds of situations... They ALWAYS come out as total douches as an organisation and for some of the players this holds true as well.
Personally I think this LOOKS (we don't have both sides yet) like a dick move and will lead to two things: 1.) Reluctancy to send players abroad and 2.) More KeSPa-like rules for SC2.
And anyone that claims that "nothing" in the relations between the korean and foreign scene will change has to have a few too many/few chromosomes sadly. because the other side always comes out with an attack at EG before EG says anything Kind of like what EG did to Team Liquid right? HRMMM... Tyler came out with an anti-EG post first... in response to a one sided EG statement regarding team liquid which hid a lot of details and created a shit ton of confusion / bad press for team liquid.
I'm just going to disagree. This discussion doesn't belong in this topic.
I just want to hear what EG has to say.
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On July 21 2011 19:01 ForlornHope wrote:
first Fnatic sign Rain, now EG sign Puma, foreign team should stick with the foreign player. It distinguish the foreign team from the korean team. People should rooting for teams like Mouz or Complexity instead of EG and Fnatic.
wat.
If you look at football teams all over the world, they have players of all kinds of nationalities. Just look at EPL or Serie A.
If a team have the money and desire to bring in a player, they should.
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115 fucking pages?:\ Has there been any info on if Puma will move to the EG teamhouse or not? Otherwise won't he be stuck just laddering on his own in Korea?
And now I understand why SirScoots had such an evil laugh when he said "I should go recruit some Pumas" or something during live on 3, haha.
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On July 21 2011 19:01 WArped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:38 alexanderzero wrote:
Sounds like the Koreans are being self-centered elitists as usual. What right do they have to get so angry if PuMa was offered a better contract by a non-Korean team? I have a feeling that if Puma had moved to another Korean team, such as oGs or StarTale, this wouldn't be nearly as dramatic.
I will concede, however, that if PuMa is going to be practicing only with foreigners now, that his eSports career is doomed. Not unless his career is focused around foreign tournaments which I'm guessing it will be.
Considering EG have a team house, and we've already decided that its practice and korean training regime that produces really good players, I hardly think its fair to say his esports career is doomed. Puma will improve the entire EG team if he joins the team house.
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On July 21 2011 19:00 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:54 Blitz Beat wrote:On July 21 2011 18:50 Seki Santoku wrote:
How can TSL talk about respect, when they have a great player working his tail off and can't get a good contract with HIS needs and wants. Many of the posters here seem to overlook the fact that contracts are not just for the safety of the teams/organisations(so things such as actual poaching wont happen) but also for the players. Contracts help protect the players as well with stability, proper paid with the player's locked in with the numbers and a near myriad number of bonus\player clauses\no trade clause/healthcare etc etc.
To me it seems like EG is showing some of the utmost respect to PuMa,(Giving puma a legitimate contract) ((granted not to TSL)), but TSL and perhaps the Korean SC2 scene in general has not shown this to their players. Players who in many people's eyes work the hardest and deserve the most. TSL is the epitomy of respect. They cater to their players more than any other team in Korea. Their players originally wanted a more relaxed team house: TSL is one of the most relaxed team houses. Coach Lee goes and gets sponsors: Becomes the first team to pay salaries to their top players and then eventually ALL players received salary which includes PuMa. I'm pretty sure that, even though playxp says "everyone is a free agent", there was some existing agreement between PuMa and TSL. you can't be "released" from nothing right? and to get paid, there has to be more than a "you live here you get paid" thing. If what you say is true, then why has TSL lost 4 major players? Clearly, the "epitome" of respect model is not working out, in one way or another.
but respect is what this shitstorm is about. Koreans live around concepts of mutual respect while those who are pro-eg in this event is saying "screw respect eg did the right thing, go capitalism go money!". i'll quote a previous post of mine...
When Tester left TSL and was looking for a new team, he still consulted Coach Lee. Coach Lee helped Tester pick the "right team" for him even after Tester left. Everything between Coach Lee and Tester happened with mutual respect for eachother. What PuMa and EG did lacked respect.
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On July 21 2011 19:02 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:59 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:56 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:52 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:49 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:48 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:47 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:45 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:43 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:41 Namu wrote:
[quote]
a few people? playxp = sc2 community in korea. LOADS of negative posts on playxp.
koreasilver = one guy on TL.
it's fact that the view on foreigners/teams have been impacted negatively already.
where the hell did i "generalize?"
The hell are you talking about, do people never learn? There is always a local minority, then there is a majority that doesn't give a shit. How on Earth is this going to impact foreigners negatively? Do you think Koreans are thick to the point where they think EG = World (presuming they think this is bad business practice at all). they definitely do think this is bad business practice. it is crystal clear if you read korean websites right now. if you don't think a negative impact on the view of a foreign team does not affect the view on foreign teams in general (although the impact will be smaller compared to the former), i don't know what to say to you But I don't give a fuck about what people on the internet say, they're irrelevant and it will die down. Just like all drama. I know exactly what to say to you, and that is that you should spend more time reading various websites because you'll see this bullshit happen all the time. Drama comes and dies just as fast. If you're solely talking about the netizen relation to foreigners then.. uh, so who gives a fuck? If there's one prick who ends up hating everything non Korean because of this he can have fun with that, in the end he's just one little prick voicing his opinion online. so you're whole point is "who gives a fuck?" well this is pointless then.. No, you got it all wrong. My point is that your initial point as pure bullshit from an ignorant perspective. pure bullshit? so i'm saying that it will have a negative impact because people are negatively talking about foreign teams already, and EG more specifically. then you dismiss me because you don't give a fuck about what people say on the internet. what, am I supposed to bring you a printed newspaper with an article about it? guess what, starcraft 2 and e-sports in general is quite closely related to the "internet," and a lot of the things said on the internet actually do relate heavily to what people actually perceive of something relating to starcraft 2. You're not supposed to bring anything because you can't prove this one way or another. One thread of angry netizen does in no way show anything, beyond that there is a portion of that website that is angry. That's it, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't say what the majority of Koreans think, it doesn't say what the people that actually matter think and it absolutely doesn't say what the people who thought the thread was dumb and didn't post in it think. Is this so hard to understand? If you're trying to say that if a few people are angry foreigner/Korean relations or damaged (fuck does this even mean), then sure, a few people are angry. But don't try to make it out like that means anything more than that. it's quite obvious you haven't looked at the responses, but trust me it wasn't one thread. please at least take a look at what i'm talking about before discussing its significance.. Oh for fuck sake, how can you miss the point so many times? You write one sentence that doesn't say anything because you really don't have anything to say, that's becoming quite clear at least.
we'll end this discussion because... well your condescension is not appreciated one bit
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On July 21 2011 18:55 keioh wrote:
Isn't it how some players are drafted in football ? Agent is contacted, offer are made, then player tells his team he's got an offer and wants to go.
Well in football, officially you have to contact the club first, agreed on a selling price, then the club would let the player contact the other team to negotiate on wages and clauses on the contract (the player can back down from this, and the deal is not guaranteed to go through even if the clubs have agreed on a selling price).
Of course that is how it is supposed to be on paper. Contacting player before club is considered extremely unethical and unfortunately that is how they are all doing it nowadays. Buying clubs do whatever they can to get the player interest, makes player unsettled and wanting away. What is the home club to do? You cant keep someone who doesnt want to be there for long. This tactic has the added benefits of lowering the selling price of the player as well, as he is wanting away and you would not have the full market price that you would normally get elsewhere.
As for the fans they get extremely upset, but nothing really can be done. You can raise some noise to FIFA, and maybe the offending club might get a bit of a fine (haha what is a few hundred thounsand euro fine compared to a multi million deal). But at the end of the day, bad rep and negative reception of the community are all the negative consequences this would incur.
Off the top of my head, Cashley Cole is bought from Arsenal the same way and so is Fabregas being courted.
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TSL coach respect his Code S player(rain.fruitdealer,trickster) when they leave but when his Code B player Puma want to leave its not ok for him??
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On July 21 2011 19:03 cYaN wrote:
115 fucking pages?:\ Has there been any info on if Puma will move to the EG teamhouse or not? Otherwise won't he be stuck just laddering on his own in Korea?
And now I understand why SirScoots had such an evil laugh when he said "I should go recruit some Pumas" or something during live on 3, haha.
Scoots saying that is pretty damn hilarious.
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On July 21 2011 18:59 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:56 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:52 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:49 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:48 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:47 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:45 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:43 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:41 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:39 Mycl wrote:
[quote]
You generalized an entire country's people saying our relationship in sc2 will be damaged because a few people on the internet are mad. a few people? playxp = sc2 community in korea. LOADS of negative posts on playxp. koreasilver = one guy on TL. it's fact that the view on foreigners/teams have been impacted negatively already. where the hell did i "generalize?" The hell are you talking about, do people never learn? There is always a local minority, then there is a majority that doesn't give a shit. How on Earth is this going to impact foreigners negatively? Do you think Koreans are thick to the point where they think EG = World (presuming they think this is bad business practice at all). they definitely do think this is bad business practice. it is crystal clear if you read korean websites right now. if you don't think a negative impact on the view of a foreign team does not affect the view on foreign teams in general (although the impact will be smaller compared to the former), i don't know what to say to you But I don't give a fuck about what people on the internet say, they're irrelevant and it will die down. Just like all drama. I know exactly what to say to you, and that is that you should spend more time reading various websites because you'll see this bullshit happen all the time. Drama comes and dies just as fast. If you're solely talking about the netizen relation to foreigners then.. uh, so who gives a fuck? If there's one prick who ends up hating everything non Korean because of this he can have fun with that, in the end he's just one little prick voicing his opinion online. so you're whole point is "who gives a fuck?" well this is pointless then.. No, you got it all wrong. My point is that your initial point as pure bullshit from an ignorant perspective. pure bullshit? so i'm saying that it will have a negative impact because people are negatively talking about foreign teams already, and EG more specifically. then you dismiss me because you don't give a fuck about what people say on the internet. what, am I supposed to bring you a printed newspaper with an article about it? guess what, starcraft 2 and e-sports in general is quite closely related to the "internet," and a lot of the things said on the internet actually do relate heavily to what people actually perceive of something relating to starcraft 2. You're not supposed to bring anything because you can't prove this one way or another. One thread of angry netizen does in no way show anything, beyond that there is a portion of that website that is angry. That's it, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't say what the majority of Koreans think, it doesn't say what the people that actually matter think and it absolutely doesn't say what the people who thought the thread was dumb and didn't post in it think. Is this so hard to understand? If you're trying to say that if a few people are angry foreigner/Korean relations or damaged (fuck does this even mean), then sure, a few people are angry. But don't try to make it out like that means anything more than that. it's quite obvious you haven't looked at the responses, but trust me it wasn't one thread. please at least take a look at what i'm talking about before discussing its significance..
No way, multiple threads? The significance has grown dramatically! You understand that this is one player on one team coming to a foreign team, nothing more...nothing less. The controversy is peaking tonight, will die down tomorrow and then fade out of existence.
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this is just AMAZING im so exicted to see him more at tournaments he is a beast and idra got a new practice partner?
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To me it sounds like Puma had no contract, and by what I have heard so far, nearly no korean has contracts with their teams, or f they have, they are shitty, and bank on getting free living in the team house to keep their players.
I asume that EG asked him about the situation when they talked, and seeing the oportunity, they made the move.
EG Fighting!
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On July 21 2011 19:04 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 19:00 farvacola wrote:On July 21 2011 18:54 Blitz Beat wrote:On July 21 2011 18:50 Seki Santoku wrote:
How can TSL talk about respect, when they have a great player working his tail off and can't get a good contract with HIS needs and wants. Many of the posters here seem to overlook the fact that contracts are not just for the safety of the teams/organisations(so things such as actual poaching wont happen) but also for the players. Contracts help protect the players as well with stability, proper paid with the player's locked in with the numbers and a near myriad number of bonus\player clauses\no trade clause/healthcare etc etc.
To me it seems like EG is showing some of the utmost respect to PuMa,(Giving puma a legitimate contract) ((granted not to TSL)), but TSL and perhaps the Korean SC2 scene in general has not shown this to their players. Players who in many people's eyes work the hardest and deserve the most. TSL is the epitomy of respect. They cater to their players more than any other team in Korea. Their players originally wanted a more relaxed team house: TSL is one of the most relaxed team houses. Coach Lee goes and gets sponsors: Becomes the first team to pay salaries to their top players and then eventually ALL players received salary which includes PuMa. I'm pretty sure that, even though playxp says "everyone is a free agent", there was some existing agreement between PuMa and TSL. you can't be "released" from nothing right? and to get paid, there has to be more than a "you live here you get paid" thing. If what you say is true, then why has TSL lost 4 major players? Clearly, the "epitome" of respect model is not working out, in one way or another. but respect is what this shitstorm is about. Koreans live around concepts of mutual respect. i'll quote a previous post of mine... Show nested quote +When Tester left TSL and was looking for a new team, he still consulted Coach Lee. Coach Lee helped Tester pick the "right team" for him even after Tester left. Everything between Coach Lee and Tester happened with mutual respect for eachother. What PuMa and EG did lacked respect.
You seem to have some inside information, so I'll ask:
Guys from teams like IM (Losira), Slayers (MMA), ST (Bomber/July), and oGs (MC) have all been "exposed" to foreign teams and sponsors at close proximity - MC multiple times, and by far the most successful. I highly doubt that Puma was the first one to be approached. Yet, it's only TSL that has been losing its members permanently (the SK situation w/oGs is totally different). It can't all be a coincidence, can it?
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Stoked for this.. my favorite team gets another great player EG_Puma!!!!
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On July 21 2011 19:04 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 19:02 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:59 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:56 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:52 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:49 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:48 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:47 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:45 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:43 vyyye wrote:
[quote]
The hell are you talking about, do people never learn? There is always a local minority, then there is a majority that doesn't give a shit. How on Earth is this going to impact foreigners negatively? Do you think Koreans are thick to the point where they think EG = World (presuming they think this is bad business practice at all). they definitely do think this is bad business practice. it is crystal clear if you read korean websites right now. if you don't think a negative impact on the view of a foreign team does not affect the view on foreign teams in general (although the impact will be smaller compared to the former), i don't know what to say to you But I don't give a fuck about what people on the internet say, they're irrelevant and it will die down. Just like all drama. I know exactly what to say to you, and that is that you should spend more time reading various websites because you'll see this bullshit happen all the time. Drama comes and dies just as fast. If you're solely talking about the netizen relation to foreigners then.. uh, so who gives a fuck? If there's one prick who ends up hating everything non Korean because of this he can have fun with that, in the end he's just one little prick voicing his opinion online. so you're whole point is "who gives a fuck?" well this is pointless then.. No, you got it all wrong. My point is that your initial point as pure bullshit from an ignorant perspective. pure bullshit? so i'm saying that it will have a negative impact because people are negatively talking about foreign teams already, and EG more specifically. then you dismiss me because you don't give a fuck about what people say on the internet. what, am I supposed to bring you a printed newspaper with an article about it? guess what, starcraft 2 and e-sports in general is quite closely related to the "internet," and a lot of the things said on the internet actually do relate heavily to what people actually perceive of something relating to starcraft 2. You're not supposed to bring anything because you can't prove this one way or another. One thread of angry netizen does in no way show anything, beyond that there is a portion of that website that is angry. That's it, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't say what the majority of Koreans think, it doesn't say what the people that actually matter think and it absolutely doesn't say what the people who thought the thread was dumb and didn't post in it think. Is this so hard to understand? If you're trying to say that if a few people are angry foreigner/Korean relations or damaged (fuck does this even mean), then sure, a few people are angry. But don't try to make it out like that means anything more than that. it's quite obvious you haven't looked at the responses, but trust me it wasn't one thread. please at least take a look at what i'm talking about before discussing its significance.. Oh for fuck sake, how can you miss the point so many times? You write one sentence that doesn't say anything because you really don't have anything to say, that's becoming quite clear at least. we'll end this discussion because... well your condescension is not appreciated one bit
I'm sorry but if a concepts so simple as "What you read online doesn't represent majority opinions" and "Drama comes and dies down just as fast" can't get into your head it's hard to pretend you have any clue whatsoever.
You say a few sentences without fuck all content, end it with ".." and tada; you think you've said anything at all.
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EPT
