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On July 21 2011 18:52 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:49 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:48 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:47 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:45 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:43 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:41 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:39 Mycl wrote:On July 21 2011 18:37 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:36 koreasilver wrote:
[quote]
Koreans on the internet are sensationalist and overreactive to hell, and they suffer from a collective ADHD and a chronic short-term memory. I wouldn't really take it very seriously. yeah and i'm not gonna take someone who generalize an entire country's people (on the internet) like that and insult them seriously.. You generalized an entire country's people saying our relationship in sc2 will be damaged because a few people on the internet are mad. a few people? playxp = sc2 community in korea. LOADS of negative posts on playxp. koreasilver = one guy on TL. it's fact that the view on foreigners/teams have been impacted negatively already. where the hell did i "generalize?" The hell are you talking about, do people never learn? There is always a local minority, then there is a majority that doesn't give a shit. How on Earth is this going to impact foreigners negatively? Do you think Koreans are thick to the point where they think EG = World (presuming they think this is bad business practice at all). they definitely do think this is bad business practice. it is crystal clear if you read korean websites right now. if you don't think a negative impact on the view of a foreign team does not affect the view on foreign teams in general (although the impact will be smaller compared to the former), i don't know what to say to you But I don't give a fuck about what people on the internet say, they're irrelevant and it will die down. Just like all drama. I know exactly what to say to you, and that is that you should spend more time reading various websites because you'll see this bullshit happen all the time. Drama comes and dies just as fast. If you're solely talking about the netizen relation to foreigners then.. uh, so who gives a fuck? If there's one prick who ends up hating everything non Korean because of this he can have fun with that, in the end he's just one little prick voicing his opinion online. so you're whole point is "who gives a fuck?" well this is pointless then.. No, you got it all wrong. My point is that your initial point as pure bullshit from an ignorant perspective. pure bullshit? so i'm saying that it will have a negative impact because people are negatively talking about foreign teams already, and EG more specifically. then you dismiss me because you don't give a fuck about what people say on the internet. what, am I supposed to bring you a printed newspaper with an article about it? guess what, starcraft 2 and e-sports in general is quite closely related to the "internet," and a lot of the things said on the internet actually do relate heavily to what people actually perceive of something relating to starcraft 2.
You're not supposed to bring anything because you can't prove this one way or another. One thread of angry netizen does in no way show anything, beyond that there is a portion of that website that is angry. That's it, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't say what the majority of Koreans think, it doesn't say what the people that actually matter think and it absolutely doesn't say what the people who thought the thread was dumb and didn't post in it think. Is this so hard to understand?
If you're trying to say that if a few people are angry foreigner/Korean relations or damaged (fuck does this even mean), then sure, a few people are angry. But don't try to make it out like that means anything more than that.
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Haha I always thought EG worked this way. SirScoots definately seemed to have a certain edge to him from watching Live on Three (or whichever show it was)
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On July 21 2011 18:54 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:52 tiaz wrote:
I don't understand how EG always seems to wind up in these kinds of situations... They ALWAYS come out as total douches as an organisation and for some of the players this holds true as well.
Personally I think this LOOKS (we don't have both sides yet) like a dick move and will lead to two things: 1.) Reluctancy to send players abroad and 2.) More KeSPa-like rules for SC2.
And anyone that claims that "nothing" in the relations between the korean and foreign scene will change has to have a few too many/few chromosomes sadly. because the other side always comes out with an attack at EG before EG says anything
Kind of like what EG did to Team Liquid right? HRMMM...
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seems this community lately are more interested in drama and arguing than the actual game, even Bnet forums are more sc2 related than this...
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On July 21 2011 18:57 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:54 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 21 2011 18:52 tiaz wrote:
I don't understand how EG always seems to wind up in these kinds of situations... They ALWAYS come out as total douches as an organisation and for some of the players this holds true as well.
Personally I think this LOOKS (we don't have both sides yet) like a dick move and will lead to two things: 1.) Reluctancy to send players abroad and 2.) More KeSPa-like rules for SC2.
And anyone that claims that "nothing" in the relations between the korean and foreign scene will change has to have a few too many/few chromosomes sadly. because the other side always comes out with an attack at EG before EG says anything Kind of like what EG did to Team Liquid right? HRMMM...
Tyler came out with an anti-EG post first...
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People are quick to make their insignificant opinions known, nothing you can say will change this, and I think many people are overeacting... x.X;
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they really are evil geniuses
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On July 21 2011 18:58 Terrifyer wrote:
they really are evil geniuses
LOL, all the EG haters, I guess EG is called Evil Geniuses for a reason =P
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Holy fuckin shit.
That was my first response when seeing this thread.
My second thought is 'If you can't beat em, make em join ya."
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On July 21 2011 18:29 Cuddle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:04 Eurekastreet wrote:On July 21 2011 17:37 seiferoth10 wrote:On July 21 2011 17:33 Cuddle wrote:
I don't understand how this is terrible by either Puma or EG.
I have a job, I'm contracted and have a salary. I get job offers by other companies every now and then, I talk to them about what they offer and when I find something I prefer to my current work situation (be it better pay, better work environment or what have you) I go tell my current boss that I have gotten a better offer and I resign my position. According to basic Swedish employee law (which is in my contract) I have to stay on for 3 month after quitting (to give my employee a chance to find a replacement) BUT we can negotiate this time down to 0 days if both parts agree.
It seems like this was exactly what happened in the Puma-EG case and I don't see anything wrong with it, at all. If TSL wanted to hold Puma to his contract, they could probably have and EG would have had to wait until it expired. They chose not to, in agreement with Puma. Case closed. Oh thank god, someone with a brain. You are a rare breed. Don't fully agree. I used to work (in Sweden) in a company that's #1 worldwide in its field (not that it matters too much but just saying it was not a 2 people thing) . At some point, one of our competitors had organisation issues while at the same time having bad financial results while we were doing good...in some attempt to fix that, they started to call "our" employees directly, offering them more money for the same job. Some people accepted, then some employees informed our management of what was happening. Management from company called management from company and that shit stopped very quickly. Business is war they say, and yes workers have freedom of movement and so on, but you gotta keep ethics in the game too otherwise it's going nowhere. If you say those things don't matter, then what good is it to have a management ? what about team spirit ? why would any team refrain from contacting any EG player directly, bypassing scoots to have them come to a new team in no time ? Imagine scoots trusts -say- that Idra would stay in EG forever and then tomorrow he learns that he moved to - team X- for a shitload of cash, it'd be normal for the team management and the other players to be disappointed, plus it probably means less sponsor money in the short term, and so on and so on. I don't wanna compare this to the situation with EG/Puma/TSL since I don't know what happened, my point is just, money/contract can't be everything, respect for your present team/players/collegas/friends and so on is important too. If the TSL manager is upset about it all (and Cliiiiiiiiiide too), it must be that someone did something wrong somewhere. Puma ? EG ? Tsl ? Everybody ? I agree to some level about the moral side o the problem but again, that's why we have laws regarding how, when and where you can recruit people, to avoid any complication. Stick to right way of doing it, by the contract you have signed, and no one can or should question your choice. Now, as for the whole team spirit issue. Yes, they probably have a bond in the team. Yes, there has probably been oral agreements. We don't know this, we can only speculate. I speculate that things are not going great at camp TSL and I support this with the fact that so many players have chosen to leave recently. When WeRRa disbanded (started with some people leaving) no one thought less of the players, once the reason was out. In this case, the ongoings at TSL is unknown so we jump to conclusions that the players are moneygrubbing dick sellouts. Guilty until otherwise proven. I don't presume to know anything about work ethics in Korea, so I won't comment on what's frowned upon or not, but I don't see how it makes EG the bad guys. They adhered to the US culture and made an offer, had PuMa wanted to adhere to this presumed unspoke code, he would have referred them to his coach. He didn't, which makes me believe that the ethics code isn't all that well know or that PuMa disliked his situation at TSL so much that he didn't want to let the coach have a say in the matter. He wanted out, tradition be damned. As for the whole "Koreans will stop sending players to foreign events..." (not in response to the above post) It's a ridiculous assumption and personally I see any such stance driving players even further into foreign teams. US/EU is where the money is at, it's where the rabid fans are and it's where the awesome events and big productions are held so that's where the serious players will be. I also think that recent events such as GSL-MLG partnership, FXO-fOu buyout, SK partnership and more points to a drive in Koreans to get out into the world and make a name for themselves. i hardly think a Korean joining a foreign team in a (possibly) shady way will affect that.
I don't fully agree about the "Stick to right way of doing it, by the contract you have signed, and no one can or should question your choice." - in my previous job example, things were done right from a contractual/legal point of view, but it was still a questionable practice from one competitor to the other (from my point of view). Nothing you can do to regulate that, you can't have laws about everything - fortunately, but manners/respect to all the parties involved should matter and it seems that the TSL coach doesn't think this was the case (or we're just fed bad info and I am wrong about it all).
I agree with the rest of your post, maybe Puma is partly/fully responsible for the coach reaction too...time will tell hopefully.
Koreans will probably keep on sending players to foreign events. But if that kind of situation happens again, maybe they'll make their players contracts tighter so that the team management got better control on their line up (and hopefully the players get paid more in exchange)...bit like in soccer, only time will tell but as more money will get injected into the scene/teams, some stability will be needed (can't see a football team management go and tell the sponsor at mid-season: oh and by the way, we lost our only good player, hope you don't mind, we should have a substitute in 2 years, don't worry)
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On July 21 2011 18:58 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:57 Blitz Beat wrote:On July 21 2011 18:54 jmbthirteen wrote:On July 21 2011 18:52 tiaz wrote:
I don't understand how EG always seems to wind up in these kinds of situations... They ALWAYS come out as total douches as an organisation and for some of the players this holds true as well.
Personally I think this LOOKS (we don't have both sides yet) like a dick move and will lead to two things: 1.) Reluctancy to send players abroad and 2.) More KeSPa-like rules for SC2.
And anyone that claims that "nothing" in the relations between the korean and foreign scene will change has to have a few too many/few chromosomes sadly. because the other side always comes out with an attack at EG before EG says anything Kind of like what EG did to Team Liquid right? HRMMM... Tyler came out with an anti-EG post first...
in response to a one sided EG statement regarding team liquid which hid a lot of details and created a shit ton of confusion / bad press for team liquid.
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On July 21 2011 18:56 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:52 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:49 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:48 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:47 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:45 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:43 vyyye wrote:On July 21 2011 18:41 Namu wrote:On July 21 2011 18:39 Mycl wrote:On July 21 2011 18:37 Namu wrote:
[quote]
yeah and i'm not gonna take someone who generalize an entire country's people (on the internet) like that and insult them seriously.. You generalized an entire country's people saying our relationship in sc2 will be damaged because a few people on the internet are mad. a few people? playxp = sc2 community in korea. LOADS of negative posts on playxp. koreasilver = one guy on TL. it's fact that the view on foreigners/teams have been impacted negatively already. where the hell did i "generalize?" The hell are you talking about, do people never learn? There is always a local minority, then there is a majority that doesn't give a shit. How on Earth is this going to impact foreigners negatively? Do you think Koreans are thick to the point where they think EG = World (presuming they think this is bad business practice at all). they definitely do think this is bad business practice. it is crystal clear if you read korean websites right now. if you don't think a negative impact on the view of a foreign team does not affect the view on foreign teams in general (although the impact will be smaller compared to the former), i don't know what to say to you But I don't give a fuck about what people on the internet say, they're irrelevant and it will die down. Just like all drama. I know exactly what to say to you, and that is that you should spend more time reading various websites because you'll see this bullshit happen all the time. Drama comes and dies just as fast. If you're solely talking about the netizen relation to foreigners then.. uh, so who gives a fuck? If there's one prick who ends up hating everything non Korean because of this he can have fun with that, in the end he's just one little prick voicing his opinion online. so you're whole point is "who gives a fuck?" well this is pointless then.. No, you got it all wrong. My point is that your initial point as pure bullshit from an ignorant perspective. pure bullshit? so i'm saying that it will have a negative impact because people are negatively talking about foreign teams already, and EG more specifically. then you dismiss me because you don't give a fuck about what people say on the internet. what, am I supposed to bring you a printed newspaper with an article about it? guess what, starcraft 2 and e-sports in general is quite closely related to the "internet," and a lot of the things said on the internet actually do relate heavily to what people actually perceive of something relating to starcraft 2. You're not supposed to bring anything because you can't prove this one way or another. One thread of angry netizen does in no way show anything, beyond that there is a portion of that website that is angry. That's it, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't say what the majority of Koreans think, it doesn't say what the people that actually matter think and it absolutely doesn't say what the people who thought the thread was dumb and didn't post in it think. Is this so hard to understand? If you're trying to say that if a few people are angry foreigner/Korean relations or damaged (fuck does this even mean), then sure, a few people are angry. But don't try to make it out like that means anything more than that.
it's quite obvious you haven't looked at the responses, but trust me it wasn't one thread.
please at least take a look at what i'm talking about before discussing its significance..
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On July 21 2011 18:54 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:50 Seki Santoku wrote:
How can TSL talk about respect, when they have a great player working his tail off and can't get a good contract with HIS needs and wants. Many of the posters here seem to overlook the fact that contracts are not just for the safety of the teams/organisations(so things such as actual poaching wont happen) but also for the players. Contracts help protect the players as well with stability, proper paid with the player's locked in with the numbers and a near myriad number of bonus\player clauses\no trade clause/healthcare etc etc.
To me it seems like EG is showing some of the utmost respect to PuMa,(Giving puma a legitimate contract) ((granted not to TSL)), but TSL and perhaps the Korean SC2 scene in general has not shown this to their players. Players who in many people's eyes work the hardest and deserve the most. TSL is the epitomy of respect. They cater to their players more than any other team in Korea. Their players originally wanted a more relaxed team house: TSL is one of the most relaxed team houses. Coach Lee goes and gets sponsors: Becomes the first team to pay salaries to their top players and then eventually ALL players received salary which includes PuMa. I'm pretty sure that, even though playxp says "everyone is a free agent", there was some existing agreement between PuMa and TSL. you can't be "released" from nothing right? and to get paid, there has to be more than a "you live here you get paid" thing.
If what you say is true, then why has TSL lost 4 major players? Clearly, the "epitome" of respect model is not working out, in one way or another.
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I love all the "puma could have been a contender man!" comments. Maybe his goal is to have fun with this game? maybe he wants the chance in life to travel all over the place and not be constrained to the gsl? If I was 19 and some hot shot Americans wanted to bankroll my endless summer fun, take me out of Korea show me the world and pay me to do it, FUCK YES I would take it. kids young GSL can only be a headache to pull yourself into code s. GG Puma.
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so puma gets a salary, will get sent to foreign events, EG gets an amazing player. and people are angry because?
I'm sure if TSL offered Puma the same deal he would stay in TSL. It really comes down to how much each team value's a player and obviously EG values puma more.
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On July 21 2011 18:54 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:50 Seki Santoku wrote:
How can TSL talk about respect, when they have a great player working his tail off and can't get a good contract with HIS needs and wants. Many of the posters here seem to overlook the fact that contracts are not just for the safety of the teams/organisations(so things such as actual poaching wont happen) but also for the players. Contracts help protect the players as well with stability, proper paid with the player's locked in with the numbers and a near myriad number of bonus\player clauses\no trade clause/healthcare etc etc.
To me it seems like EG is showing some of the utmost respect to PuMa,(Giving puma a legitimate contract) ((granted not to TSL)), but TSL and perhaps the Korean SC2 scene in general has not shown this to their players. Players who in many people's eyes work the hardest and deserve the most. TSL is the epitomy of respect. They cater to their players more than any other team in Korea. Their players originally wanted a more relaxed team house: TSL is one of the most relaxed team houses. Coach Lee goes and gets sponsors: Becomes the first team to pay salaries to their top players and then eventually ALL players received salary which includes PuMa.
I have doubt in what you say, when 4 of their top players have left, they now have a more strict team house with coach Lee who was a BW coach, BW where players had near slave labor type training house. With no contracts these "salaries" can stop coming at anytime, for any reason, and puma can't legality do anything about it.
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It was about time EG added to their roster, that makes 2 decent players now atleast.
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first Fnatic sign Rain, now EG sign Puma, foreign team should stick with the foreign player. It distinguish the foreign team from the korean team. People should rooting for teams like Mouz or Complexity instead of EG and Fnatic.
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EPT
