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On June 15 2011 04:47 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:41 DrainX wrote:
SjoW almost beat MMA. He owned him in game 1 and he was ahead in game 3. MMA then made a comeback. The games were really even. He also took a game of July. SjoW isn't the best foreigner, not even the best terran. But to say that he got owned at MLG is an unfair lie. I didn't see the games that MorroW lost so I can't comment on those. Didn't Sjow win a lot of EU tournaments? Isn't that why he's well known? He lost to all 3 Koreans at MLG, MMA, July and Moon. In the game he won against July, he did so by going 2 port banshee, and catching July off-guard, who was sitting there trying to understand why Sjow hadn't gged after losing almost all his SCVs. July basically stopped scouting and thought he had the game won, and paid for that mistake. It was a fluke.
Yeah. SjoW has won more tournaments than any other foreigner. He has earned more money from tournaments than any other foreigner. He has in fact earned more tournament winnings than, July, Inca, Ace or Nada in SC2. He is not as dominant as he used to be though.
Yeah he did lose to all three Koreans. So what? TvZ is his weakest matchup by far and if MMA had not dropped and basetraded with him at that exact moment in game 3, he would have beaten MMA, the winner of MLG. I'm not saying that he or any other foreigner is better than the top Koreans. All I am saying is that there are foreigners that can beat Koreans and are able to win tournaments even if Koreans are involved.
Just look at Thorzain as another example. He is currently 5-6 in matches vs MC. All games played with low ping when both people were in the same country. MC is by many considered the best Korean protoss in the world. If playing 5-6 vs him doesn't prove that foreigners can compete, I don't know what would. That is a better score than the majority of Koreans in Code-S have vs MC. It is a better score than every other Korean coming to Dreamhack other than Bomber has. Bomber vs MC is 5-5.
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On June 15 2011 04:53 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:40 jj33 wrote:On June 15 2011 04:35 mcc wrote:On June 15 2011 04:31 jj33 wrote:On June 15 2011 04:16 antelope591 wrote:On June 15 2011 04:13 Nerdslayer wrote:On June 15 2011 04:09 jj33 wrote:On June 15 2011 04:06 Oreo7 wrote:On June 15 2011 03:56 Maliris wrote:On June 15 2011 03:55 zeenix1 wrote:
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TSL3 was online, which ends that argument. No, it does not actually. Thanks for trying champ Yes it does, Koreans win every offline tourney they compete in verse foreigners. The Koreans can win most major tournaments and say not win one and it'll be the gospel for these korean haters. We are not korean haters. All we saying is there is a big differene between Dreamhack and MLG. Trust me you guys is in for a suprice when you see the top of the EU killing nerds left and right Please enlighten us as to what euro player participating in this tourney is better than idra/naniwa/thorzain You'll be waiting forever. As you just reminded him there is no talent in europe better than thorzain/naniwa/idra at the moment. There are players on similar level (it is hard to judge exactly) in Europe. And if you pick specific matchups you will find a lot more players like that. Ok name them. The fact that you didn't name one is telling. The only notable european players not at MLG were dimaga, whitera, maybe kas and a few others. but none of them can you say are better than naniwa, idra, thorzain. I did not say better, I said similar level. It is hard to judge who is better as they are close. Dimaga might be one, it is hard to know as he does not participate in a lot of offline tournaments recently, but he definitely has the potential. White-ra PvT definitely and PvP maybe(who knows after the patch) I would say similar level to Naniwa, PvZ drags him down recently. Morrow definitely close(he should maybe consider off-race for ZvZs). Ret definitely belongs there. Second thing is that good is not the same as notable. There are players who are not well known like Nerchio for example. Then you have players like SaSe who defeated Naniwa twice recently, HasuObs, Socke (his PvP is/was recently I would say best in Europe) or Kas. Again I did not say those players are better, but they are close or the same level as those two (Idra is American). Naniwa and Thorzain are not winning all, not even majority I would say, EU tournaments they enter.
And you ignore that the best Koreans weren't there either.
Losira, MC, MMA, July, Moon is great.
But if it was MC, MMA, MVP, Bomber, Nestea....
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On June 15 2011 04:41 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:33 sitromit wrote:On June 15 2011 04:13 Nerdslayer wrote:
We are not korean haters. All we saying is there is a big differene between Dreamhack and MLG. Trust me you guys is in for a suprice when you see the top of the EU killing nerds left and right Who is the top of EU? People like Sjow and Morrow, who got owned at MLG? SjoW almost beat MMA. He owned him in game 1 and he was ahead in game 3. MMA then made a comeback. The games were really even. He also took a game of July. SjoW isn't the best foreigner, not even the best terran. But to say that he got owned at MLG is an unfair lie. I didn't see the games that MorroW lost so I can't comment on those.
Morrow also did not get owned. He lost a series to Fenix in Open Bracket. And then unfortunately ZvZ with I think Slush(?). He is much better than a lot of people who finished higher in MLG. If he was in the pool play he would most likely end up much higher.
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On June 15 2011 02:34 mikyaJ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 02:32 RvB wrote:On June 15 2011 02:26 mikyaJ wrote:On June 15 2011 02:15 Elem wrote:On June 15 2011 02:13 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 15 2011 02:10 SmoKim wrote:oh man that's a bummer  , but it won't change the fact that Dreamhack has the most stacked line-up so far for any tournament Lol idunno about 'most stacked'. I'd say GSL code S tourney is a bit 'more stacked' without a doubt. Bummer about Nada & co... Code S is hardly stacked. Especially not compared to Dreamhack. LOLWAT. The only tournament that was stacked like Code S is... was TSL. If my stacked you mean overall skill that is. Because I'm pretty sure majority of Code S players could go to any Foreigner tournament and win it; if there wasn't another Korean that beat them. Keep in mind that every single SC2 LAN tournament that had at least one Korean attending it has been won by a Korean except for DH Winter. If you mean stacked like by player popularity, sure. TSL might still have it beat though, but sure. MC won DH winter he beat White-ra 3-2 in the finals. No he didn't it was won by Naama over Mana in the finals.
It was DH Invitational in the spring that MC won 
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These players had ample time to get their visas sorted out. -_-
Why did they wait until the last second?
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On June 15 2011 04:54 DrainX wrote:
Just look at Thorzain as another example. He is currently 5-6 in matches vs MC. All games played with low ping when both people were in the same country. MC is by many considered the best Korean protoss in the world. If playing 5-6 vs him doesn't prove that foreigners can compete, I don't know what would.
MC's worst match by far is PvT and TvP is definitely Thorzain's best and still MC is ahead. No one thinks that gap is as big as Brood War or that foreigners can never beat Koreans, just that there is a noticable difference between top Koreans and top foreigners and that Koreans have far more depth than the foreign scene does.
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On June 15 2011 04:47 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:37 Maliris wrote:Korean fanboys are adorable ^_^ koreans always say in interviews theres no difference between a korean and a foreigner, are you gonna tell them they are clueless too  ? Keep trying Blizzcon - Won by Genius (Korea) Dreamhack Winter - Won by Naama (Europe) - very few Koreans in attendence though. IEM - Won by Ace (Korea), 3 Koreans entered, took top three. GSL World Championships - Won by MVP (Korea) - the best of the best Koreans versus some very good foreigners. Only Dimaga takes a game off a Korean when money is involved and is soundly beaten by San straight after. Dreamhack Invitational - Won by MC (Korea) - One Koreans, seven foreigners and Korean takes it. Copenhagen Games - Won by MC (Korea) - Two Koreans, a few good Europeans and a lot of medicore Europeans. MLG Columbus - Won by MMA (Korea) - Korean top three and only Koreans knocked out Koreans. Almost every good foreigner in attendence alongside four good Koreans and a mediocre one. Stars War - Won by MC (Korea) - Online for a lot of it, MC vs 3 top Chinese top in LAN, MC wins. Literally the only LAN won by a foreigner when a Korean is there was Dreamhack Winter, and the foreigners were Inca and TOP not exactly MC, Nestea level. And yet some people don't think there's a skill difference?
you could also include the earlier MLGs.
MLG DC: idra, has lived almost 3 years in korea at this point
raleigh had no koreans
MLG Dallas '10: jinro, has been training in korea since start of retail
MLG Dallas '11 is the only one where a player who hadn't trained in korea won, and at this point idra (the only such player in attendance there) had already left korea for a few months
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On June 15 2011 04:59 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:54 DrainX wrote:
Just look at Thorzain as another example. He is currently 5-6 in matches vs MC. All games played with low ping when both people were in the same country. MC is by many considered the best Korean protoss in the world. If playing 5-6 vs him doesn't prove that foreigners can compete, I don't know what would. MC's worst match by far is PvT and TvP is definitely Thorzain's best and still MC is ahead. No one thinks that gap is as big as Brood War or that foreigners can never beat Koreans, just that there is a noticable difference between top Koreans and top foreigners and that Koreans have far more depth than the foreign scene does.
Nah, after he lost to Thorzain and Polt his PvT has become alot better
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On June 15 2011 04:47 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:37 Maliris wrote:Korean fanboys are adorable ^_^ koreans always say in interviews theres no difference between a korean and a foreigner, are you gonna tell them they are clueless too ? Keep trying Blizzcon - Won by Genius (Korea) Dreamhack Winter - Won by Naama (Europe) - very few Koreans in attendence though. IEM - Won by Ace (Korea), 3 Koreans entered, took top three. GSL World Championships - Won by MVP (Korea) - the best of the best Koreans versus some very good foreigners. Only Dimaga takes a game off a Korean when money is involved and is soundly beaten by San straight after. Dreamhack Invitational - Won by MC (Korea) - One Koreans, seven foreigners and Korean takes it. Copenhagen Games - Won by MC (Korea) - Two Koreans, a few good Europeans and a lot of medicore Europeans. MLG Columbus - Won by MMA (Korea) - Korean top three and only Koreans knocked out Koreans. Almost every good foreigner in attendence alongside four good Koreans and a mediocre one. Stars War - Won by MC (Korea) - Online for a lot of it, MC vs 3 top Chinese top in LAN, MC wins. Literally the only LAN won by a foreigner when a Korean is there was Dreamhack Winter, and the foreigners were Inca and TOP not exactly MC, Nestea level. And yet some people don't think there's a skill difference?
Ill start by saying that Koreans are better, I just do not think that the difference is like terribly high. I think they are mostly more consistent, foreigners just show some great games a then some terrible ones(for that level of play) and in the tournament that plays a big role.
Now for your argument. In Copenhagen games, recently-code-S player TheWind gets beaten quite early. Hmm, might that mean that code S is (now it is much better, but I think the observation still holds) not so far from the foreigner level and has rather big difference between the best and worst players ? Whatever people say MC vs Thorzain was played without latency and yet he lost Bo7 (I think, maybe Bo5).
Also TOP is not exactly a bad player, top4 in GSL ST and playing pretty well in every GSL.
So yep, top Koreans are better, but code S is definitely not some untouchable group of players that no foreigner can touch. It is not like there are no foreigners in code S and HuK definitely did not yet show that he can be considered one the very top foreigners.
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On June 15 2011 04:55 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:53 mcc wrote:On June 15 2011 04:40 jj33 wrote:On June 15 2011 04:35 mcc wrote:On June 15 2011 04:31 jj33 wrote:On June 15 2011 04:16 antelope591 wrote:On June 15 2011 04:13 Nerdslayer wrote:On June 15 2011 04:09 jj33 wrote:On June 15 2011 04:06 Oreo7 wrote:On June 15 2011 03:56 Maliris wrote:
[quote]
No, it does not actually. Thanks for trying champ Yes it does, Koreans win every offline tourney they compete in verse foreigners. The Koreans can win most major tournaments and say not win one and it'll be the gospel for these korean haters. We are not korean haters. All we saying is there is a big differene between Dreamhack and MLG. Trust me you guys is in for a suprice when you see the top of the EU killing nerds left and right Please enlighten us as to what euro player participating in this tourney is better than idra/naniwa/thorzain You'll be waiting forever. As you just reminded him there is no talent in europe better than thorzain/naniwa/idra at the moment. There are players on similar level (it is hard to judge exactly) in Europe. And if you pick specific matchups you will find a lot more players like that. Ok name them. The fact that you didn't name one is telling. The only notable european players not at MLG were dimaga, whitera, maybe kas and a few others. but none of them can you say are better than naniwa, idra, thorzain. I did not say better, I said similar level. It is hard to judge who is better as they are close. Dimaga might be one, it is hard to know as he does not participate in a lot of offline tournaments recently, but he definitely has the potential. White-ra PvT definitely and PvP maybe(who knows after the patch) I would say similar level to Naniwa, PvZ drags him down recently. Morrow definitely close(he should maybe consider off-race for ZvZs). Ret definitely belongs there. Second thing is that good is not the same as notable. There are players who are not well known like Nerchio for example. Then you have players like SaSe who defeated Naniwa twice recently, HasuObs, Socke (his PvP is/was recently I would say best in Europe) or Kas. Again I did not say those players are better, but they are close or the same level as those two (Idra is American). Naniwa and Thorzain are not winning all, not even majority I would say, EU tournaments they enter. And you ignore that the best Koreans weren't there either. Losira, MC, MMA, July, Moon is great. But if it was MC, MMA, MVP, Bomber, Nestea....
Do you actually read what you reply to ? What has your reply anything to do with my point that there are European players that are as good or close as Thorzain or Naniwa ? Why are you talking about Koreans, what do they have to do with it ?
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Im not convinced this is the koreans fault. I think that this could also be Dreamhacks fault for stating that the players would come to raise more intrest before they knew for sure if they would be available. I dont know if this is the case but i wouldn't blame everything on the koreans.
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Nada & MKP :'(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On June 15 2011 05:14 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:47 Blasphemi wrote:On June 15 2011 04:37 Maliris wrote:Korean fanboys are adorable ^_^ koreans always say in interviews theres no difference between a korean and a foreigner, are you gonna tell them they are clueless too ? Keep trying Blizzcon - Won by Genius (Korea) Dreamhack Winter - Won by Naama (Europe) - very few Koreans in attendence though. IEM - Won by Ace (Korea), 3 Koreans entered, took top three. GSL World Championships - Won by MVP (Korea) - the best of the best Koreans versus some very good foreigners. Only Dimaga takes a game off a Korean when money is involved and is soundly beaten by San straight after. Dreamhack Invitational - Won by MC (Korea) - One Koreans, seven foreigners and Korean takes it. Copenhagen Games - Won by MC (Korea) - Two Koreans, a few good Europeans and a lot of medicore Europeans. MLG Columbus - Won by MMA (Korea) - Korean top three and only Koreans knocked out Koreans. Almost every good foreigner in attendence alongside four good Koreans and a mediocre one. Stars War - Won by MC (Korea) - Online for a lot of it, MC vs 3 top Chinese top in LAN, MC wins. Literally the only LAN won by a foreigner when a Korean is there was Dreamhack Winter, and the foreigners were Inca and TOP not exactly MC, Nestea level. And yet some people don't think there's a skill difference? Ill start by saying that Koreans are better, I just do not think that the difference is like terribly high. I think they are mostly more consistent, foreigners just show some great games a then some terrible ones(for that level of play) and in the tournament that plays a big role. Now for your argument. In Copenhagen games, recently-code-S player TheWind gets beaten quite early. Hmm, might that mean that code S is (now it is much better, but I think the observation still holds) not so far from the foreigner level and has rather big difference between the best and worst players ? Whatever people say MC vs Thorzain was played without latency and yet he lost Bo7 (I think, maybe Bo5). Also TOP is not exactly a bad player, top4 in GSL ST and playing pretty well in every GSL. So yep, top Koreans are better, but code S is definitely not some untouchable group of players that no foreigner can touch. It is not like there are no foreigners in code S and HuK definitely did not yet show that he can be considered one the very top foreigners.
Back then TOP definitely wasn't at that level. The Thorzain/MC game was a best of 5. Another thing rather mentioned is that the winning game for Thorzain involved a strategy so overpowered Blizzard nerfed it very soon after, it's pretty rare for Blizzard to do that so fast.
Code S is still very much in transition from throwing out all the players not good enough and letting the new blood in. So there's still plenty not so great Code S players. We'll see soon enough whether Thorzain and Naniwa have what it takes.
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On June 15 2011 05:12 mki wrote:Looks like XlorD is replacing one of them :p --- I wrote the news for MYM but here's proof it's official and his ticket is bought! http://www.mymym.com/en/news/20115.html
That article says he'll be replacing Fruitdealer??? Isn't it Nada who isn't going?
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On June 15 2011 05:20 Weson wrote:
Im not convinced this is the koreans fault. I think that this could also be Dreamhacks fault for stating that the players would come to raise more intrest before they knew for sure if they would be available. I dont know if this is the case but i wouldn't blame everything on the koreans.
Everyone who wanted to go to dreamhack had to apply first. If the Koreans applied and Dreamhack then accepted their invitation, I don't think we can blame Dreamhack if they then don't come.
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On June 15 2011 04:47 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:37 Maliris wrote:Korean fanboys are adorable ^_^ koreans always say in interviews theres no difference between a korean and a foreigner, are you gonna tell them they are clueless too ? Keep trying Blizzcon - Won by Genius (Korea) Dreamhack Winter - Won by Naama (Europe) - very few Koreans in attendence though. IEM - Won by Ace (Korea), 3 Koreans entered, took top three. GSL World Championships - Won by MVP (Korea) - the best of the best Koreans versus some very good foreigners. Only Dimaga takes a game off a Korean when money is involved and is soundly beaten by San straight after. Dreamhack Invitational - Won by MC (Korea) - One Koreans, seven foreigners and Korean takes it. Copenhagen Games - Won by MC (Korea) - Two Koreans, a few good Europeans and a lot of medicore Europeans. MLG Columbus - Won by MMA (Korea) - Korean top three and only Koreans knocked out Koreans. Almost every good foreigner in attendence alongside four good Koreans and a mediocre one. Stars War - Won by MC (Korea) - Online for a lot of it, MC vs 3 top Chinese top in LAN, MC wins. Literally the only LAN won by a foreigner when a Korean is there was Dreamhack Winter, and the foreigners were Inca and TOP not exactly MC, Nestea level. And yet some people don't think there's a skill difference?
By the way, TOP got barely knocked out by Naama 2-1 who then went on to win the tournament, and Naama said afterwards that he beat TOP because TOP used a TvT opening that he used a lot months before and therefore knew how to beat it (some stuff about quick air control).
InCa is of course a very underdeveloped player. He has a killer PvP, but his PvT is cheese and all-in ^20 and his PvZ ... well I don't think there's much to say.
InCa got knocked out by TOP btw.
So yeah, foreigners get raped wall to wall by Koreans, and there's literally not a single counter-example.
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On June 15 2011 05:14 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 04:47 Blasphemi wrote:On June 15 2011 04:37 Maliris wrote:Korean fanboys are adorable ^_^ koreans always say in interviews theres no difference between a korean and a foreigner, are you gonna tell them they are clueless too ? Keep trying Blizzcon - Won by Genius (Korea) Dreamhack Winter - Won by Naama (Europe) - very few Koreans in attendence though. IEM - Won by Ace (Korea), 3 Koreans entered, took top three. GSL World Championships - Won by MVP (Korea) - the best of the best Koreans versus some very good foreigners. Only Dimaga takes a game off a Korean when money is involved and is soundly beaten by San straight after. Dreamhack Invitational - Won by MC (Korea) - One Koreans, seven foreigners and Korean takes it. Copenhagen Games - Won by MC (Korea) - Two Koreans, a few good Europeans and a lot of medicore Europeans. MLG Columbus - Won by MMA (Korea) - Korean top three and only Koreans knocked out Koreans. Almost every good foreigner in attendence alongside four good Koreans and a mediocre one. Stars War - Won by MC (Korea) - Online for a lot of it, MC vs 3 top Chinese top in LAN, MC wins. Literally the only LAN won by a foreigner when a Korean is there was Dreamhack Winter, and the foreigners were Inca and TOP not exactly MC, Nestea level. And yet some people don't think there's a skill difference? Ill start by saying that Koreans are better, I just do not think that the difference is like terribly high. I think they are mostly more consistent, foreigners just show some great games a then some terrible ones(for that level of play) and in the tournament that plays a big role. Now for your argument. In Copenhagen games, recently-code-S player TheWind gets beaten quite early. Hmm, might that mean that code S is (now it is much better, but I think the observation still holds) not so far from the foreigner level and has rather big difference between the best and worst players ? Whatever people say MC vs Thorzain was played without latency and yet he lost Bo7 (I think, maybe Bo5). Also TOP is not exactly a bad player, top4 in GSL ST and playing pretty well in every GSL. So yep, top Koreans are better, but code S is definitely not some untouchable group of players that no foreigner can touch. It is not like there are no foreigners in code S and HuK definitely did not yet show that he can be considered one the very top foreigners.
It's not like foreigners can touch. more like SC2 is still volatile.
as I said, MMA and MKP got 0-2ed by no name Koreans yesterday. (Sage beat MMA, JYP beat MKP)
btw, is there any no-name EU players who can 2-0 MKP,MMA in EU?
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On June 15 2011 05:21 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 05:14 mcc wrote:On June 15 2011 04:47 Blasphemi wrote:On June 15 2011 04:37 Maliris wrote:Korean fanboys are adorable ^_^ koreans always say in interviews theres no difference between a korean and a foreigner, are you gonna tell them they are clueless too ? Keep trying Blizzcon - Won by Genius (Korea) Dreamhack Winter - Won by Naama (Europe) - very few Koreans in attendence though. IEM - Won by Ace (Korea), 3 Koreans entered, took top three. GSL World Championships - Won by MVP (Korea) - the best of the best Koreans versus some very good foreigners. Only Dimaga takes a game off a Korean when money is involved and is soundly beaten by San straight after. Dreamhack Invitational - Won by MC (Korea) - One Koreans, seven foreigners and Korean takes it. Copenhagen Games - Won by MC (Korea) - Two Koreans, a few good Europeans and a lot of medicore Europeans. MLG Columbus - Won by MMA (Korea) - Korean top three and only Koreans knocked out Koreans. Almost every good foreigner in attendence alongside four good Koreans and a mediocre one. Stars War - Won by MC (Korea) - Online for a lot of it, MC vs 3 top Chinese top in LAN, MC wins. Literally the only LAN won by a foreigner when a Korean is there was Dreamhack Winter, and the foreigners were Inca and TOP not exactly MC, Nestea level. And yet some people don't think there's a skill difference? Ill start by saying that Koreans are better, I just do not think that the difference is like terribly high. I think they are mostly more consistent, foreigners just show some great games a then some terrible ones(for that level of play) and in the tournament that plays a big role. Now for your argument. In Copenhagen games, recently-code-S player TheWind gets beaten quite early. Hmm, might that mean that code S is (now it is much better, but I think the observation still holds) not so far from the foreigner level and has rather big difference between the best and worst players ? Whatever people say MC vs Thorzain was played without latency and yet he lost Bo7 (I think, maybe Bo5). Also TOP is not exactly a bad player, top4 in GSL ST and playing pretty well in every GSL. So yep, top Koreans are better, but code S is definitely not some untouchable group of players that no foreigner can touch. It is not like there are no foreigners in code S and HuK definitely did not yet show that he can be considered one the very top foreigners. Back then TOP definitely wasn't at that level. The Thorzain/MC game was a best of 5. Another thing rather mentioned is that the winning game for Thorzain involved a strategy so overpowered Blizzard nerfed it very soon after, it's pretty rare for Blizzard to do that so fast.
You have an answer for everything don't you :D:D
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EPT
