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-What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
I am zerg. And so my answers will be from a zerg perspective or biased.
3 units that need reworking:
There are many but I .ll give you my top 3.
Hydra - Sentry - Baneling
Hydra is just too slow etc etc.
Sentry is just plain stupid. Protoss is supposed to be the strong race. Able to take a zerg army head to head with zealots leading the charge and not hiding behind force fields. I understand that you would get roflstomped without the FF. Its because your units are too weak now. You are no longer the strong race. That would be terran. WOuld never happen, moving on.
Why do i have to lose my gas everytime I kill something? What a stupid idea. Scourge was okay because you would never make 50 of them. You do with banes. Oh look i just owned your entire force, but I have nothing left. Oh, and it ruins ZvZ.
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
Number 1 on this list, hands down: Warp-in. You can 4 gate (which is retarded). 10 lings slipped past your front? Oh, just warp 3 zealots in at your line. You got dropped? Spawn 5-6 units to delay him while your army gets there. Its TOO strong and so if it were to stay, it should be higher up in the tree and not your first upgrade.
MULEs. I'd like to see a cooldown. There is no penalty for forgeting them.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
looks good. Would like to see some different terrain. Like snow.
What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
Lurkers. And remove banes.
Lurkers bought the zerg valuable time so they can expand and get to hive. The closest thing to that now are infestors and they are no where close to being as effective. And they should do + dmg to light and not armored as it is now in the editor. For marines.
Planetary fortress. Its unfair that terran can drop 4 marauders and snipe off a hatch or nexus but I need my entire army to take down one of their expos. If I want to snipe a PF i need to suicide 20+ banes on it. Now I get owned by his force because I dont have banes.
Infestor. Is it their AI that is bad? Is it me that is bad? I really can't tell. All i know is that I rarely get more than 1-2 fungals from a single infestor before it decides to suicide into their army. And I have them in their own control group.
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
Reavers!
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
Reavers!
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
Reavers!
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
REEAVERS!!!
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Corrupters may be boring as ass, but they're necessary to fight against Carriers (ok lol I know) and Cattlebruisers (I've actually seen this before). Without the corrupters, zerg would only have mutas for anti-air (when was the last time you saw anyone build a hydra den in ZvT?)
And what would morph into Broodlords?
Force Fields I think are a great mechanic. People make the argument that they remove micro, but it takes micro on the part of the protoss to do that and balancing the right numbers of sentries in with your gateway army. I think it also adds micro to keep the sentries preserved in battles (no one wants to rebuild sentries)
The archon still needs buffs. At this point (Atleast in PvZ) I actually laugh out loud when I see an archon. It's hilarious. At this point it's better just to let the HTs slowly regenerate their energy. They may be useless for a few minutes, but it's better than being useless forever.
Colossi fall into another case of boring but necessary like the corrupter. MMM is just to good otherwise and HTs take to long. People may argue that a Colossus deathball is unstoppable and that in high numbers (6? 8?) Any ground army will melt instantly, but we had that in BW with the seige tank. Work around it
And the paper plane Warp Prism needs a health buff. Seriously blizzard? Really? It's not even a glass cannon, it's just glass.
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Units that need an overwork:
- Hydralisk. One of my favorite units in BW, far too slow and expensive in SC2. In TvZ I almost never see them. should be weaker, faster and cheaper.
- Overseer, remove this guy and give zerg something different with detection
- Carrier, too weak in almost every matchup. Pretty cool unit nevertheless
- Colossi, little bit too easy to micro. Maybe more damage but less attackspeed so you can micro it back and forth etc. Just an idea...
- Hellion, strange to micro, doesn't really work great in big numbers, thats why everyone does only Marines and mech isn't as powerful als Bio. I think Bio and Mech should be equally strong. Not nearly as awesome as the vultures :-(
- Thors, also impossible to micro, nearly the same problem as the hydras. I loved the Goliats in BW, the Thors are a unit for little kids... They are just like a huge and slow marine
- Raven, I hope he won't need a rework, I can think of good use if Zerg gets lurkers. Maybe HSM is too expensive... Don't know... I'd like to see spellcasters used more often by Terrans... Ghost change from 150/150 to 200/100 was definetly the right choice.
- Viking Ground. I love vikings at the ground. They look super awesome... Too bad they are superweak at the ground...
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you might get the impression that i want sc2 to be like BW. That is not the case. e.g. the wraiths/valkyrie/dropship/medics/firebat are not nearly as their sc2 counterparts.
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units i want to see:
- vessel for sure. Such a cool unit in the campaign. healing mech might sound OP with the unitset right now, but i think it might be okay if some units get changed a bit.
- lurker
- I want to see Phoenix/DT in SC2 against Zerg. That would be superawesome...
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2011 04:25 rockon1215 wrote:
Corrupters may be boring as ass, but they're necessary to fight against Carriers (ok lol I know) and Cattlebruisers (I've actually seen this before). Without the corrupters, zerg would only have mutas for anti-air (when was the last time you saw anyone build a hydra den in ZvT?)
And what would morph into Broodlords?
Force Fields I think are a great mechanic. People make the argument that they remove micro, but it takes micro on the part of the protoss to do that and balancing the right numbers of sentries in with your gateway army. I think it also adds micro to keep the sentries preserved in battles (no one wants to rebuild sentries)
The archon still needs buffs. At this point (Atleast in PvZ) I actually laugh out loud when I see an archon. It's hilarious. At this point it's better just to let the HTs slowly regenerate their energy. They may be useless for a few minutes, but it's better than being useless forever.
Colossi fall into another case of boring but necessary like the corrupter. MMM is just to good otherwise and HTs take to long. People may argue that a Colossus deathball is unstoppable and that in high numbers (6? 8?) Any ground army will melt instantly, but we had that in BW with the seige tank. Work around it
And the paper plane Warp Prism needs a health buff. Seriously blizzard? Really? It's not even a glass cannon, it's just glass.
Let me guess.... you play protoss, right?
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On June 02 2011 03:07 Eknoid4 wrote:
If you have to end your post with "I may very well be wrong" don't expect your argument to hold any extra weight just because you admitted you dont know everything.
Is that how your mind works?
That to say, "I might be wrong" is really just a sneaky tool to make other people think your argument has "extra weight"?
Man, see, to me, saying "I might be wrong" means: "I could be way off base with this line of thought and if you've got opinoins to the contrary, I'm willing to discuss it - and even concede that I was *gasp* wrong because hell, I sure as shit don't know everything about everything.
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People seem to be shoe-horning in their balance discussions into the thread.
Forget about balance. Pretend these are the early beta days. Nobody makes enough workers, there are no timing attacks, nobody gets an expansion... like, ever.
What do you think LOOKS/FEELS cool, not what needs a balance tweak?! I see the Raven and Reaper come up time and time again, with people going: "You know, nobody really uses the Raven or the Reaper right now."
That isn't because of the basic unit concept. If Reapers were cheaper than Marines, no-one would make Marines. That wouldn't mean on it's own that Marines are bad unit design. It's purely a balance issue rather than a unit design issue.
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On June 02 2011 04:28 Alpina wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2011 04:25 rockon1215 wrote:
Corrupters may be boring as ass, but they're necessary to fight against Carriers (ok lol I know) and Cattlebruisers (I've actually seen this before). Without the corrupters, zerg would only have mutas for anti-air (when was the last time you saw anyone build a hydra den in ZvT?)
And what would morph into Broodlords?
Force Fields I think are a great mechanic. People make the argument that they remove micro, but it takes micro on the part of the protoss to do that and balancing the right numbers of sentries in with your gateway army. I think it also adds micro to keep the sentries preserved in battles (no one wants to rebuild sentries)
The archon still needs buffs. At this point (Atleast in PvZ) I actually laugh out loud when I see an archon. It's hilarious. At this point it's better just to let the HTs slowly regenerate their energy. They may be useless for a few minutes, but it's better than being useless forever.
Colossi fall into another case of boring but necessary like the corrupter. MMM is just to good otherwise and HTs take to long. People may argue that a Colossus deathball is unstoppable and that in high numbers (6? 8?) Any ground army will melt instantly, but we had that in BW with the seige tank. Work around it
And the paper plane Warp Prism needs a health buff. Seriously blizzard? Really? It's not even a glass cannon, it's just glass. Let me guess.... you play protoss, right? Actually, I play zerg. I rage at the Protoss death ball as much as the next IdrA fan, but without Colossus protoss would suck. Bad. They would get absolutely ran over by hydra/roach every game; although, an Immortal/Templar + Gateway support army composition looks very promising these days, especially for the Roach/Infestor users like me. However, this takes time to get up too (more time than Colossus from what I have heard and seen). Until HTs enter the field (later than immortals) it is very weak vs. Hydras or even infestors willing to NP the immortals in addition to FG on the Gateway support
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On June 02 2011 05:05 rockon1215 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 04:28 Alpina wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2011 04:25 rockon1215 wrote:
Corrupters may be boring as ass, but they're necessary to fight against Carriers (ok lol I know) and Cattlebruisers (I've actually seen this before). Without the corrupters, zerg would only have mutas for anti-air (when was the last time you saw anyone build a hydra den in ZvT?)
And what would morph into Broodlords?
Force Fields I think are a great mechanic. People make the argument that they remove micro, but it takes micro on the part of the protoss to do that and balancing the right numbers of sentries in with your gateway army. I think it also adds micro to keep the sentries preserved in battles (no one wants to rebuild sentries)
The archon still needs buffs. At this point (Atleast in PvZ) I actually laugh out loud when I see an archon. It's hilarious. At this point it's better just to let the HTs slowly regenerate their energy. They may be useless for a few minutes, but it's better than being useless forever.
Colossi fall into another case of boring but necessary like the corrupter. MMM is just to good otherwise and HTs take to long. People may argue that a Colossus deathball is unstoppable and that in high numbers (6? 8?) Any ground army will melt instantly, but we had that in BW with the seige tank. Work around it
And the paper plane Warp Prism needs a health buff. Seriously blizzard? Really? It's not even a glass cannon, it's just glass. Let me guess.... you play protoss, right? Actually, I play zerg. I rage at the Protoss death ball as much as the next IdrA fan, but without Colossus protoss would suck. Bad. They would get absolutely ran over by hydra/roach every game; although, an Immortal/Templar + Gateway support army composition looks very promising these days, especially for the Roach/Infestor users like me. However, this takes time to get up too (more time than Colossus from what I have heard and seen). Until HTs enter the field (later than immortals) it is very weak vs. Hydras or even infestors willing to NP the immortals in addition to FG on the Gateway support
Of course protoss is bad w/o collosus, and it's bad w/o FF but that does not mean that those units/abilites do not suck and need to be left untouched. They are going to release an expansion so we can hope they will remove bad desing units and give us good design units. Reaver is 10x more fun and micro intensive than collosus and I doubt you will find someone on these forums who like collosus more than a reaver, just an example.
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On June 02 2011 02:26 Carmine wrote:
Marauders and Roaches are not boring. The hydralisk in SC1 couldn't do anything but attack, but it still had its place.
Is anyone saying that the Roach is boring because all it can do is attack? Maybe a few people are, but it seems like most of the criticism has more to do with its overall design as a slow, high supply, high armor zerg unit at tier 1, and also that it overlaps with the Hydra so much. The Hydralisk is one of Starcraft's most iconic units, but in SC2 it plays second fiddle to a far less iconic unit that basically does the same thing except it can't attack air and is more defensive.
There's a similar kind of overlap between the Marauder and Marine. In Brood War about the most similarity you got in a race's unit pool (for ground units anyway) was between the Goliath and Marine, or maybe the Zergling and Ultralisk. You didn't have marines and then jumbo-sized marines that dealt more damage to armor but couldn't attack air.
On June 02 2011 02:26 Carmine wrote:
Marauder slow is an interesting ability and it may not have a specific counter micro, but it creates tense situations.
It's not that Concussive Shells doesn't have a micro counter, it's that it literally counters micro. Because of this it prevents tense situations more than it creates them. A group of marines trying to gun down a fleeing stalker is a tense situation. Add a Marauder with CS into the group and the outcome is pre-determined. A micro battle between units fast enough to be pulled back when their HP is low is a tense situation. CS puts a stop to that.
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On June 01 2011 09:03 jinixxx123 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 09:02 jalstar wrote:
I'd like to see macro abilities pushed to the late game to nerf one-base all-ins. Mules and Calldown Supply should require Starport, Chrono and WG should be at the Twilight Council, and Larva Inject should be researched somewhere at Lair Tech. thats kinda lame, talk about forcing a tech path.....
Every terran gets a starport, they are essential. You need twilight council for +2/+2 and lair ofc is needed. None of these force a tech path, the only one that comes close is the terran mules and that is only if you are going mech.
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On June 02 2011 03:56 r_con wrote:
I think uniqueness of units is a little gone, and the peculiarity of units is very important.
Some units need moving shot to make them interesting.
Roaches would be awesome with moving shot
vikings would be awesome with moving shot
mutalisks would also be awesome with moving shot
I think it needs to be done like this:
the frontal area of the unit has to be aimed at the unit your targeting to do an attack while moving. You can assign the degrees the shot will go off centered so you can do this for balance
Hydra needs instant shot and instant turn speed turn speed.
and give some ground units acceleration and possibly base higher speed.
I think marauders with some acceleration, and slightly higher movement speed would be very interesting
They just need to give more ways to toy with units and give some peculiarity to units. It doesn't need to be intuitive, it needs to be interesting to look at and give advantages.
melee units need slightly large collision boxes to block.movement
scvs and probes and drones need minor acceleration
remove charge and replace it with speed.
Stalkers blink range should be slightly decreased.
Fungal should cause a slowing effect, damage, a slight slowing of firing rate. to give more interactions
Tanks should 40/50
force fields need to have health 250 (armored) health 3 armor. This will reduce the power of lings and marines against force fields(as it should) but allow harder hitting units to create holes in the defenses
Sentries should be slightly faster due to this nerf to forcefields
Stalkers should do 1 more damage
Colossus is tricky, for me, they are hard to make interesting. I think a changing of the beam architecture would be interesting. Possibly longer range is tighter cone
Hydras have speed upgrade now because they always should have
Hellions should have moving shot similar to marines and also have a slightly large model
zerglings should have a slightly higher attack speed
corruption should cause the 1 enemy unit to attack slightly slower(but not do extra damage)
corrupters should have one more range
archons should have slightly larger splash radius
ravens should cost 100/150
banshees need decreased range(like 4) and moving shot
Hellions should have spider mine upgrade(only 1 mine)
Carriers interceptors should heal
Thors need strike cannon removed, 1 less armor a faster ground attack, but lower damage
Ultras need to be slightly smaller, faster, and do maybe 4 more damage. also, cost 50 less gas
This would be great for changes. Unfortunately, gateway units will still have to be buffed now. Right now, Marines + Marauders > Roaches + Hydras > Zealots + Stalkers. It's pretty bad seeing how Protoss units cost so damn much. Right now it's just maps and forcefields that are helping make Protoss even playable (which is completely true, hence why forcefield helps so much)
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Northern Ireland27286 Posts
Exactly, I made a conscious decision to try and not make sentries and go toe-to-toe with a zerg massing roaches earlier, was using blink stalkers and DTs to try and stop him being able to max, got an expo of my own. Actually had an army out worth a ton more than his, with better upgrades. Still got wiped.
I'm playing the wrong race for the way I like to play, I like to be a lot more proactive and constantly harassing, but it's pretty tough
I'm not a great player, I'm not awful though, I use proxy's all around the place, I use probes and obs and have a great idea of the enemies position. Second I step on creep I'll not be able to retreat unless I can actually wipe his main army, same with Terran but that's more if I'm caught off guard. Sentries are pretty much a prerequisite! I can accept that marines are an integral part of a Terran army, but forcing me to make sentries which have a hefty gas cost, and having to rely on solid forcefields early game is a pain, but a NECESSARY one
Protoss have a great ability to warp in and move TO places, but once they're there it's bloody awful to try and retreat if you do miscalculate 
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To everyone saying the colossus needs to be significantly changed/removed, what if Z had scourge? It provides a cheap, efficient way of dealing with colossi and would allow what is probably the most boring unit in the game(corruptors) to become a more general air-to-air unit, or a support unit.
The risk you run with changing the colossus is that you effectively need to rebalance the entire race, if not the entire game, and I can't see Blizz doing that even for an expansion.
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A couple things about my topic (closed now due to similarity with this thread) that I posted earlier:
I forgot to mention that while Dustin Browder is right in that the Overseer can't really be redesigned too much (due to its no food cost), I do not think it needs to be replaced either.
What I meant is I do not think it would be bad to have two detection type units for Zerg (if a new one were to be introduced for example, I say the Overseer could stay).
Also as for my comment about Firebat, Goliath, Dragoon being "a-move units", I meant that they were just kind of regular units (units without any special or fancy abilities) which I do agree there does not "need" to be more of in terms of added units (unless one got removed that is).
Anyway as for fewer units being more simpler and possible better, it does not necessary have to be that way.
While this may lean towards "apple and oranges", DotA has over 80 heroes (for examples) but a lot of heroes may have overlapping abilities (3-4 heroes may have the a very similar ability for example) but at the same time the game still is played on a competitive level (though nowhere as near SC of course).
What I mean is that having more does have to mean more confusion for the game (well in terms of the DotA example, a new player will definitely be confused. With SC2 though, a lot of players already know the units so I do not think 2 or 3 extra units would be make things too confusion for example).
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Redesign list needs to be
Reaper - rarely used
Collosus - boring, too strong for its easy micro. Its like having templar storm but you dont micro.
Corrupter - SO BORING, made for only anti air, but ITS TERRIBLE against Voidrays, which is the direct counter to corrupters ... which makes the corrupter absolutely retarded
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
Colossus (obvious one, don't really need to explain)
Thor - The idea behind it is neat (powerful support unit that can be tanky) but in reality Thors are barely used and die quickly even with their 400 HP. Terran need a mech unit like the Goliath that can do well against ALL air ( not just light) while giving ground some support as well.
Ultralisk - Such a cool/ game-defining unit, and it gets countered so damn hard right now. I think they need to switch it's damage to be the same against everything.
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
Warp-ins - I'm sorry but the ability to get units INSTANTLY and ANYWHERE you want is really silly without some kind of downside.
Inject Larva- this mechanic is very gimmicky and pretty much defines the Zerg Race. I think it allows Zerg to get too much of an economic advantage too quickly. In fact, I think it would be best if they removed all 3 new macro mechanics (Mule/Chronoboost/Larva inject) because they dilute the balance so much and are not by any means required.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
Dynamic movement (units naturally spreading out)
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
Strong/mobile anti-air mech unit and maybe another turtly building for Terran. Reavers to replace Colossus.
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-Get rid of helions and replace with vultures.. Get rid of ravens and replace with science vessel. Get rid of banshees and replace with wraith. Nerf marauders.
-Get rid of colossi and replace with reavers. Get rid of stalkers and replace with dragoons. Get rid of phoenix and replace with corsairs. Nerf voidrays.
-Get rid of banelings and replace with lurkers. Get rid of corruptors and replace with scourge. Get rid of infestors and replace with defilers. Nerf roaches.
Also, set a max unit selection (in ladder at least). Either 12 or 18.
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On June 02 2011 09:37 ScythedBlade wrote:
This would be great for changes. Unfortunately, gateway units will still have to be buffed now. Right now, Marines + Marauders > Roaches + Hydras > Zealots + Stalkers. It's pretty bad seeing how Protoss units cost so damn much. Right now it's just maps and forcefields that are helping make Protoss even playable (which is completely true, hence why forcefield helps so much)
Yeah, Protoss gate units used to be expensive but tough, now they are just expensive. :-/
It's like Blizzard totally forgot their own SC lore when designing the race.
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On June 02 2011 12:26 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
-Get rid of helions and replace with vultures.. Get rid of ravens and replace with science vessel. Get rid of banshees and replace with wraith. Nerf marauders.
-Get rid of colossi and replace with reavers. Get rid of stalkers and replace with dragoons. Get rid of phoenix and replace with corsairs. Nerf voidrays.
-Get rid of banelings and replace with lurkers. Get rid of corruptors and replace with scourge. Get rid of infestors and replace with defilers. Nerf roaches.
Also, set a max unit selection (in ladder at least). Either 12 or 18.
I see what you did there. But seriously, Vultures replacing hellions would be a great change. Lurkers though would probably be broken considering that Zerg is balanced around a high economy so they can't really get any super efficient units early on.
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