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On June 02 2011 16:21 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:
As a Protoss player I would like to see the warp in mechanic similar to the Zerg's creep mechanic. You would have to spread your warp in area throughout the game similar to spreading creep via creep tumors. This would mean you would have to earn the right to take away the defenders advantage and warp in units near the opponents base. It would also solve PvP and the 4 gate in general, and on large maps we would see warp prism usage I believe as it was designed to be used.
I feel this would also pave the way for gateway units to be buffed (stalkers mainly) and the colossus to be nerfed, which would result in a more diverse array of playstyles available for toss in all matchups.
That's an interesting idea. I also think that, apart from pushing WG tech to Twilight Council, making warped units more expensive (say Zealots cost 125 minerals and Stalkers cost 150/75; something along those lines) is another possibility. That would have a number of interesting repercussions. And yeah, it's the Stalker that needs a strong buff with the Zealot needing a weak buff. The Stalker is such a core unit for almost all Protoss compositions but it fares relatively poorly as the game goes on. A small buff to damage/health, and especially upgrades would be handy.
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On June 02 2011 17:52 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:21 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:
As a Protoss player I would like to see the warp in mechanic similar to the Zerg's creep mechanic. You would have to spread your warp in area throughout the game similar to spreading creep via creep tumors. This would mean you would have to earn the right to take away the defenders advantage and warp in units near the opponents base. It would also solve PvP and the 4 gate in general, and on large maps we would see warp prism usage I believe as it was designed to be used.
I feel this would also pave the way for gateway units to be buffed (stalkers mainly) and the colossus to be nerfed, which would result in a more diverse array of playstyles available for toss in all matchups. That's an interesting idea. I also think that, apart from pushing WG tech to Twilight Council, making warped units more expensive (say Zealots cost 125 minerals and Stalkers cost 150/75; something along those lines) is another possibility. That would have a number of interesting repercussions. And yeah, it's the Stalker that needs a strong buff with the Zealot needing a weak buff. The Stalker is such a core unit for almost all Protoss compositions but it fares relatively poorly as the game goes on. A buff to damage, health, and especially upgrades would be handy.
I don't know how can you buff a stalker. Late game mass upgraded blink stalkers owns zerg. If they get buff then they need to nerf blink or it will become ridiculously OP.
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Does it? I'm not sure I agree. Wouldn't Hydras destroy them? Or mass upgraded Roaches match them well? Although, to be frank, I'd be happy with just upgrades that scale well (at least +1/+1).
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On June 02 2011 17:56 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 17:52 aZealot wrote:On June 02 2011 16:21 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:
As a Protoss player I would like to see the warp in mechanic similar to the Zerg's creep mechanic. You would have to spread your warp in area throughout the game similar to spreading creep via creep tumors. This would mean you would have to earn the right to take away the defenders advantage and warp in units near the opponents base. It would also solve PvP and the 4 gate in general, and on large maps we would see warp prism usage I believe as it was designed to be used.
I feel this would also pave the way for gateway units to be buffed (stalkers mainly) and the colossus to be nerfed, which would result in a more diverse array of playstyles available for toss in all matchups. That's an interesting idea. I also think that, apart from pushing WG tech to Twilight Council, making warped units more expensive (say Zealots cost 125 minerals and Stalkers cost 150/75; something along those lines) is another possibility. That would have a number of interesting repercussions. And yeah, it's the Stalker that needs a strong buff with the Zealot needing a weak buff. The Stalker is such a core unit for almost all Protoss compositions but it fares relatively poorly as the game goes on. A buff to damage, health, and especially upgrades would be handy. I don't know how can you buff a stalker. Late game mass upgraded blink stalkers owns zerg. If they get buff then they need to nerf blink or it will become ridiculously OP.
Late game blink stalkers destroy zerg when zerg devotes too many resources to taking out collosus. Therefore by nerfing collosus you can buff the stalker.
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On June 02 2011 18:03 aZealot wrote:
Does it? I'm not sure I agree. Wouldn't Hydras destroy them? Or mass upgraded Roaches match them well? Although, to be frank, I'd be just happy with upgrades that scale well (at least +1/+1).
I've seen countless of times how blink stalkers wins vs. more supply of roach/hydra. Not to mention most of toss players are bad at using blink micro. If someone is really good at that he will just own any zerg composition (excluding maybe some kind of infestor play).
On June 02 2011 18:08 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 17:56 Alpina wrote:On June 02 2011 17:52 aZealot wrote:On June 02 2011 16:21 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:
As a Protoss player I would like to see the warp in mechanic similar to the Zerg's creep mechanic. You would have to spread your warp in area throughout the game similar to spreading creep via creep tumors. This would mean you would have to earn the right to take away the defenders advantage and warp in units near the opponents base. It would also solve PvP and the 4 gate in general, and on large maps we would see warp prism usage I believe as it was designed to be used.
I feel this would also pave the way for gateway units to be buffed (stalkers mainly) and the colossus to be nerfed, which would result in a more diverse array of playstyles available for toss in all matchups. That's an interesting idea. I also think that, apart from pushing WG tech to Twilight Council, making warped units more expensive (say Zealots cost 125 minerals and Stalkers cost 150/75; something along those lines) is another possibility. That would have a number of interesting repercussions. And yeah, it's the Stalker that needs a strong buff with the Zealot needing a weak buff. The Stalker is such a core unit for almost all Protoss compositions but it fares relatively poorly as the game goes on. A buff to damage, health, and especially upgrades would be handy. I don't know how can you buff a stalker. Late game mass upgraded blink stalkers owns zerg. If they get buff then they need to nerf blink or it will become ridiculously OP. Late game blink stalkers destroy zerg when zerg devotes too many resources to taking out collosus. Therefore by nerfing collosus you can buff the stalker.
Just pure blink stalkers, no collosus. Just watch a game of IdrA vs. Cruncher, where idra has literally 60 more supply and then adds hydras and looses to pure blink stalkers.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah, his upgrades were worse, but still it shows how powerful blink stalkers are.
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Figure this is as good as any thread to say it in.
Does anyone else think that burrowed banelings are the replacement for lurkers?
Like lurkers they force detection and help the zerg to control space. Obviously there are massive differences between the two units, but I think this is just a great example of intelligent use of the mechanics that are already in the game, rather than just QQing and wishing for lurkers.
This isn't BW. Go play BW if you want to, no one is stopping you, hell go play SC2BW.
Also on the colo and FF qq, I can totally understand it. I play toss, and I never use colo. It hurts my game, but tbh I find them too fragile, and perhaps a tad boring.
FF are great tho. People don't realise that you can bait the toss into wasting FF, yes this is hard and if you do it poorly, half your army is gone, but this is why this game takes skill.
Thing is that both FF and colo are interesting mechanics. FF it's obvious why, they take skill to use well. Colo I think the battle between air units and colo is very interesting, especially regarding positioning.
Finally regarding both FF and colo, fact is that toss needs both to survive. People need to realise that removing them will require massive buffs elsewhere. One of the common ones is 'buff gateway units'. Can someone explain to me how buffed stalkers, zealots and sentires would make the game more interesting?
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On June 02 2011 17:52 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:21 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:
As a Protoss player I would like to see the warp in mechanic similar to the Zerg's creep mechanic. You would have to spread your warp in area throughout the game similar to spreading creep via creep tumors. This would mean you would have to earn the right to take away the defenders advantage and warp in units near the opponents base. It would also solve PvP and the 4 gate in general, and on large maps we would see warp prism usage I believe as it was designed to be used.
I feel this would also pave the way for gateway units to be buffed (stalkers mainly) and the colossus to be nerfed, which would result in a more diverse array of playstyles available for toss in all matchups. That's an interesting idea. I also think that, apart from pushing WG tech to Twilight Council, making warped units more expensive (say Zealots cost 125 minerals and Stalkers cost 150/75; something along those lines) is another possibility. That would have a number of interesting repercussions. And yeah, it's the Stalker that needs a strong buff with the Zealot needing a weak buff. The Stalker is such a core unit for almost all Protoss compositions but it fares relatively poorly as the game goes on. A small buff to damage/health, and especially upgrades would be handy.
I think this is the solution to the warp gate, there has to be a reason to choose gateways over warpgates, either by making gateways produce units cheaper or quicker (or put another way, warpgates more expensive and slower).
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Nice video Alpina, gives my amateur design-crafting something to think about. Thanks.
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Burrowed banelings 100% relies only on your opponent not having detection, while lurkers did damage even if opponent had detection. Lurkers were good defensive unit and in SC2 zerg does not have a unit which gives defenders advantage.
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On June 02 2011 04:29 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 03:07 Eknoid4 wrote:
If you have to end your post with "I may very well be wrong" don't expect your argument to hold any extra weight just because you admitted you dont know everything. Is that how your mind works? That to say, "I might be wrong" is really just a sneaky tool to make other people think your argument has "extra weight"? Man, see, to me, saying "I might be wrong" means: "I could be way off base with this line of thought and if you've got opinoins to the contrary, I'm willing to discuss it - and even concede that I was *gasp* wrong because hell, I sure as shit don't know everything about everything.
No, making several pages of an argument (that no one asked you to make and is often a complete nonsequitur) and then saying "i might be wrong" is saying "I have no idea what i'm talking about, but i like to think that I do, so here is my opinion that could easily be a waste of your time"
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They need to really emphasize the distinction between the three races.
- What are your top 3 uninteresting units in the game?
+ Show Spoiler +Overseer, Colossus, Corruptor. And roaches/hydras should be in there somewhere...
Overseers are just useless and a waste of a unit, obviously. Either replace it or give the overseer real spells.
Colossus, though mostly due to the game's unit clumping mechanics. A range 9 aoe splash machine is just too good. Cliff walking is a gimmick that needs to go.
Corruptors need a use outside of killing Colossi. You'd never build them for Corruption, and if you want to stop drops, mutas are better.
I understand Blizzard wanting each race to have a unique air-to-air option, but they're currently all too gimmicky or useless. Broodwar had a unique, interweaving web which gave all three AtA units a use (corsairs kill overlords + drops, valks kill scourges to allow bcs to be used, etc).
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
+ Show Spoiler +Unit clumping, which makes splash so effective (and is the reason for the Colossus issue). Ability to select infinity units at once leads to far more 1-a battles and far less small harass/specialised groups. I'm not sure how to fix the latter though, because the 12 units thing in BW really was frustrating as hell.
I think terrain and strategy also needs to play more of a role, as much as it did in Broodwar. Tanks/Reavers/Lurkers were units that just utterly shut down spaces, but were massively immobile, so it became a question of trying to outmaneuver your opponent. And each race had options to both control and bypass terrain.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
+ Show Spoiler +Just new and cool stuff. Nicer lighting, nerd-chill spell animations, etc. Like everyone, I'm excited for new content, I just hope they remember to make it look good :D
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
+ Show Spoiler +MORE SPELLCASTERS, MORE INTERESTING UTILITY SPELLS. Stuff that lends itself far more to micro than 1-a ing; this will make SC2 far more interesting both to play and to watch.
Remember Broodwar? Each spell had so many uses and niche intricacies. Irradiate against stacked mutalisks, maelstrom+storm against zerg, queens broodlings against tank lines, ensnare to buy time against timing pushes, dark swarm + lurker slow pushing, plague against lategame BCs/carriers, etc.
Spells should synergise WITH units, not just be gimmicks. Fungal is now the same thing as storm, forcefield is just "split army in half + win", infested terrans are just like "spit at mineral line + run", neural parasite can only be used against like 3 units effectively, etc. Oh, and overseers are just fucking useless and queens are a necessary mechanic (effectively meaning that Protoss and Terran have about 3-4 spellcasters each and zerg has 1).
I want to see each race having a tier-3 spellcaster, as well as more unit options to steer the game more towards a space control type of game (yes, that means lurkers!).
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Warpgates@ council will stimulate more templar usage instead of colos. which is nice.
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Number one ability/mechanics I'd like to see changed is the mule: it's a terribly boring yet extremely effective macro-tool which allows terran to keep up with zerg/toss without having to put much effort into it.
Good terrans should have a tool that allows them to use multi-task, bad terrans shouldn't be able to get back into games just by spamming 6 mules on gold minerals.
Number one unit to be reworked: mothership; it feels like someone desperately tried to implement a "hero"-unit similar to wc3; well, guess what, it doesn't work...at....all; if the mothership stays the way it is right now, I'll be really disappointed
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I don't think Blizzard anticipated just how much the unit AI would affect gameplay. Fights are over so quickly that units don't have time to fill their roles, it's just a case of blob v blob and the winner will be known 3 seconds later.
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On June 02 2011 18:23 PeggyHill wrote:
Finally regarding both FF and colo, fact is that toss needs both to survive. People need to realise that removing them will require massive buffs elsewhere. One of the common ones is 'buff gateway units'. Can someone explain to me how buffed stalkers, zealots and sentires would make the game more interesting?
As a zerg player who used to play toss, I agree that you can't take FF away. Toss needs them to survive early game vs. both terran and zerg aggressive openings. To buff zealots or stalkers to an extent that would allow toss to live through that stage would make those units game-breakingly OP late game. But the needed buff could also come in form of some new unit or ability.
As for colo, if they were taken out, tosses would always use high templar late game which would also be boring. Again, some new replacement would have to come in.
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I would like to see, as does the caster crota, a tension between gateways and warpgates. The tension lies in the build time where the gateways produce units faster than warpgates but where the warpgates can use their warp gate technology. If this is implemented the defenders advantage is restored in the early game and creates interesting choices in the late game (Mobility vs more army).
Zerg needs a cliff walking unit preferably in T1,5 and should be morphed from the roach (perhaps a changeling with attacking power). This would help against terran all ins as roaches dominate marines.
Collusus should be removed and subsequently the Corruptor and Viking. After that new units can be created and changed. If the Collusus is removed the gateway army needs a buff through better stats. If the Collusus remains in HOTS plz make it so that it can't walk over gateway units (different collision mechanics).
Terran needs a better raven especially the heat seeking missile and the infestor's fungle growth should result in temporarily slowed units (50% slow) not static units.
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On June 02 2011 17:52 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 16:21 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:
As a Protoss player I would like to see the warp in mechanic similar to the Zerg's creep mechanic. You would have to spread your warp in area throughout the game similar to spreading creep via creep tumors. This would mean you would have to earn the right to take away the defenders advantage and warp in units near the opponents base. It would also solve PvP and the 4 gate in general, and on large maps we would see warp prism usage I believe as it was designed to be used.
I feel this would also pave the way for gateway units to be buffed (stalkers mainly) and the colossus to be nerfed, which would result in a more diverse array of playstyles available for toss in all matchups. That's an interesting idea. I also think that, apart from pushing WG tech to Twilight Council, making warped units more expensive (say Zealots cost 125 minerals and Stalkers cost 150/75; something along those lines) is another possibility. That would have a number of interesting repercussions. And yeah, it's the Stalker that needs a strong buff with the Zealot needing a weak buff. The Stalker is such a core unit for almost all Protoss compositions but it fares relatively poorly as the game goes on. A small buff to damage/health, and especially upgrades would be handy.
This would be a great change, it has a great synergy with my original idea of changing the Warp Prism
On June 01 2011 21:55 ClueLessx3 wrote:
Since I am a protoss player most of these suggestions are going to be directed towards tweaking protoss, for I have little understanding for other races and the difficulties they are facing at this state of the game. Sorry if it is kind of biased.
- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
1. Warp Prism
- This unit is one of the 2 most underplayed unit in the protoss arsenal in my opinion. Pylon power mechanic is what defines a warp prism essentially, because when it goes into prism mode its basically becomes a pylon. So in order to increase the effective usage of warp prism, I thought that the pylon needs some tweaking. This is any unit standing/hovering under pylon power will receive increased plasma shield regeneration and cool down time, to say, starts recharging in around 5-7 seconds (opposed to 10) and 3 shield/sec (opposed to 2/sec).
- Why would this be good? because after transforming into a prism it is stationary. This means if a protoss player is going for a drop it wouldn't be a constant heal, like a medivac. It would mean that if they want full efficiency they would need to stand under the circle (which should be smaller if this mechanism is implemented)
So the added benifit of the expanding pylon power would be shield regen and cool down 
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Slightly weaker, FASTER colossus is the answer. It will make them less powerful in lategame numbers. It will allow for the protoss army to be split up more. It will allow some interesting colossus/blink stalker harass. It will make them better at dealing with incoming harass. Did I mention lategame balls will be weakened by it!!
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Give call down supplies the ability to be dropped anywhere with vision, no need to be on an existing depot. Prolly have to nerf the supply a little, maybe +5 suppy or even nerf the hp of the call down to 150 hp or so.
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EPT
