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I'm going to throw this out there and likely get absolutely shit on for saying so but...
I think the biggest problem in this game is the Marine.
With multiple rax/reactors, marines can be produced en masse at an incredible rate of speed and at very low cost. I don't believe any other unit has as high a dps and utility for such a low price as the marine does. Even when faced with "hard counters" marines can still be controlled in such a way as to limit and or virtually nullify those counters (i.e. stim + run + spread, or pre-emptive spreading to avoid AoE, or unit sniping with small leading groups).
Given solid upgrades and a strong economy, I'm of the opinion that marines do way more than they should given their mineral and supply cost. They can die quickly, they can also be replaced at a rate that makes Terran seem like the new Zerg.
But, my biggest gripe with the marine, and why I mention it is the following:
It is, in my opinion, responsible for a lot of unnecessary changes to the game.
- I think siege tanks were nerfed because of their damage in conjunction with infantry support when the infantry was as lethal as the tanks; and also to facilitate more variety (i.e. marine use) in TvT (though this wasn't deemed necessary in BW)
- I think the FG change was to help with marines and medivacs primarily, and bonus to armored an added fringe benefit.
- I think the heavy-hitting AoE units people currently loathe (Colossus) haven't been changed too much because of the fact that they're needed to counter units like the marine (and lings of hydras I guess you could say, but zealots do that just fine). For their cost, you can almost throw waves of marines into their counters until you either a) take it down, or b) drain it of mana making it useless.
- I think the only thing stopping more people from really using this unit to it's full potential is a lack of skill in micro, shoot-n-scoot, or spreading. Outside of that, this unit is the SC2 powerhouse.
Watching GSL, NASL, etc. and I am almost disappointed at how almost any game involving Terran revolves almost solely around marines. Everything seems to support marines - even the notion that "tanks are the backbone of the Terran army" doesn't sit well with me because I'm convinced that tanks support marines.
TvT - mass marines and tanks
TvZ - mass marines and tanks
TvP - bio + viking
Now, I will say I may very well be totally wrong - and no, the marine isn't game breaking; but I say this as a player who started off random, switched to Terran, hit masters, and switched back to random because Terran felt ridiculously silly to play. Perhaps it was how I was playing that was ridiculous; but it worked well, and I swear up and down, no race can get as far with one unit as Terran can with marines.
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On June 02 2011 02:56 Mjolnir wrote:I'm going to throw this out there and likely get absolutely shit on for saying so but... I think the biggest problem in this game is the Marine. With multiple rax/reactors, marines can be produced en masse at an incredible rate of speed and at very low cost. I don't believe any other unit has as high a dps and utility for such a low price as the marine does. Even when faced with "hard counters" marines can still be controlled in such a way as to limit and or virtually nullify those counters (i.e. stim + run + spread, or pre-emptive spreading to avoid AoE, or unit sniping with small leading groups). Given solid upgrades and a strong economy, I'm of the opinion that marines do way more than they should given their mineral and supply cost. They can die quickly, they can also be replaced at a rate that makes Terran seem like the new Zerg. But, my biggest gripe with the marine, and why I mention it is the following: It is, in my opinion, responsible for a lot of unnecessary changes to the game. - I think siege tanks were nerfed because of their damage in conjunction with infantry support when the infantry was as lethal as the tanks; and also to facilitate more variety (i.e. marine use) in TvT (though this wasn't deemed necessary in BW)
- I think the FG change was to help with marines and medivacs primarily, and bonus to armored an added fringe benefit.
- I think the heavy-hitting AoE units people currently loathe (Colossus) haven't been changed too much because of the fact that they're needed to counter units like the marine (and lings of hydras I guess you could say, but zealots do that just fine). For their cost, you can almost throw waves of marines into their counters until you either a) take it down, or b) drain it of mana making it useless.
- I think the only thing stopping more people from really using this unit to it's full potential is a lack of skill in micro, shoot-n-scoot, or spreading. Outside of that, this unit is the SC2 powerhouse.
Watching GSL, NASL, etc. and I am almost disappointed at how almost any game involving Terran revolves almost solely around marines. Everything seems to support marines - even the notion that "tanks are the backbone of the Terran army" doesn't sit well with me because I'm convinced that tanks support marines. TvT - mass marines and tanks TvZ - mass marines and tanks TvP - bio + viking Now, I will say I may very well be totally wrong - and no, the marine isn't game breaking; but I say this as a player who started off random, switched to Terran, hit masters, and switched back to random because Terran felt ridiculously silly to play. Perhaps it was how I was playing that was ridiculous; but it worked well, and I swear up and down, no race can get as far with one unit as Terran can with marines.
Too me, you just proved the marine was an interesting unit :p
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If you have to end your post with "I may very well be wrong" don't expect your argument to hold any extra weight just because you admitted you dont know everything.
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On June 02 2011 03:07 Eknoid4 wrote:
If you have to end your post with "I may very well be wrong" don't expect your argument to hold any extra weight just because you admitted you dont know everything.
Noone knows everything, even blizzard isn't good at designing units.
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i would love to see more spellcasters like in bw
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Corrupter
This unit is just terrible, it costs 150/100 and can only attack air, they are good in large numbers but by themselves they are quite weak. They are only useful against colossus, anything else hydralisk can deal with. Since Hydras aren't like they are in BW they are quite effective in ground to air, so it seems stupid for corrupters to exist except as a very situational unit or to get broodlords.
2. Colosuss
What can I say? it's a boring unit that is highly mobile and strong. It's not a great unit by itself but with others it's deadly. I love watching siege tanks and they are a similar unit to colossus yet colossus isn't bound by any weaknesses of mobility. Sure it can be attacked by air but that just means we now need specialized units just to deal with it, hence Vikings and Corrupters. At least vikings have an alternate usage in other matchups, overlord sniping in TvZ, air control in TvT; what do corrupters have? They counter air in ZvZ? They do nothing but create broodlords in TvZ?
3. Reaper
I'd rather see a new bio unit that can use stim rather then the reaper. It's cost and build time has no place in a normal bio army, therefore it has no real use outside of the very early game. Yea the reaper can be a scout but good players won't let them see anything and in that case if terran really wants to see inside a protoss base he can just scan.
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
+ Show Spoiler +
Add scourge and take out Corrupter completely let the mutalisk morph into a broodlord. I like the idea of scourge more than a corrupter because you get a cheap unit from an expensive building and because of that it allows for reactive play. Let scourge counter colossus, a fast suicide unit that only targets air? I think ZvP would end up balanced. Scourge as a light unit that deals a good amount of damage across all armor types and phoenix and storm would counter them.
Change the colossus but I'm not sure how, I would say replace with reaver but they are best suited for harass where colossus works best within an army. Maybe slow down it's attack significantly but give it even more range with the thermal lance upgrade.
Remove the reaper completely, terran has scan after all. Terran needs a new bio unit that can fit well into the late game composition. Bring in the Spectre from campaign, costs 50/150. you need a ghost academy and builds from a barracks with techlab. This unit has mind blast, which costs 100 energy is an AOE and stuns a group of units for 8 seconds. Spectres can also cloak when it's researched as well as drop nukes. It's second ability is like spider mines. Spectres can place a spider mine for every 50 energy, the mine only targets one unit and deals 50 damage. You can select the mines and it will have autocast for explode on target or you can take off autocast and choose which unit you wish to attack yourself. In conjunction with cloak, I could see spectres laying mines everywhere, even behind enemy lines! Also mobius reactor is now a shared upgrade along with cloak for both ghosts and spectres.
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On June 02 2011 03:11 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 03:07 Eknoid4 wrote:
If you have to end your post with "I may very well be wrong" don't expect your argument to hold any extra weight just because you admitted you dont know everything. Noone knows everything, even blizzard isn't good at designing units.
It's funny. They seem to be doing a pretty good job for being bad at it.
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Colossus! The most boring unit in RTS games history. Replace it, PLEASE blizzard, replace it. Protoss player speaking.
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
Roach, Marauder, and Colosus
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Colossus is just terrible, and has I was shocked in the beta that Blizzard went with such a dull and uninteresting unit. Stood out like a sore thumb.
Marines are cool as hell. No idea why but they are the coolest standard unit in any RTS game. Tho the way they have built the Terran around this unit kind of destroys the very interesting arsenal that Terran has.
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Here are just a couple random modifications I wouldn't mind seeing:
1) Reaper re-designed. I think they should be given a Spidermine ability. I also think removing the need to have a tech lab in order to make them would be interesting, but a lot of re-balancing would be needed on their damage to not make it overpowered or something. I just think giving Terran more units that can be made from a Reactor'd Barracks would mix things up a bit more.
2) Queen movement. I think there should be a researchable upgrade to allow increased Queen speed movement off-creep at Hive or Lair tech, that way Queens can also end up being used in the Zerg army instead of being forced at home all game.
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The science vessel was so freaking cool in the single player. =D
- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
+ Show Spoiler +1. Colossus -- Not only is the a-move mentality behind this unit discouraging, but the negative synergy that it causes as soon as it's on the battlefield due to it's hard counter nature is really bad for the game. You basically NEED corruptors/vikings to deal with it and you can no longer use lings because they evaporate instantly. Ironically, only toss have really good tools to be able to deal with colussus on the ground and not the air. With colossus removed or severely changed there'd be less of a reliance on other factors which make the game boring.
2. Lots of zerg things. Would love to see Roaches start at Lair and have regen+speed by default and throw a weaker Hydra into T1. The infestor still feels "forced" with infested terran and neural parasite being gimmicky spells. Fungal+Banelings is OP now against marines, but it's sort of a necessary evil in order to balance lategame vs colussus deathball. As many people have mentioned, spells like forcefield, fungal & marauder slow -- spells that take micro away, as opposed to force it, are BAD for the game. I feel like all of these should go, of course with proper rebalancing done for the units following that.
3. Banshee -- There's a reason GtA damage, especially by Wraith's was slow in BW. Seeing someone lose half their mineral line because their detection was 10s slow is really lame. I feel like this is the sort of thing David Kim was referring to in his interview where "oh someone lost the game horribly because they missed a small scout window".
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Unit(s) to help Zerg control space. Seems kind of obvious and has already been beaten to death.
2. A (more) mobile Protoss ground unit.
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On June 01 2011 02:22 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 02:10 TheDougler wrote:
Useless units:
Overseer
Reaper
Carrier
Uninteresting units:
Colossus
Ultralisk
...There is no terran unit I find uninteresting Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, and reapers are the best scout unit in the game aside from the observer. I can agree that colossus are boring.
Stop perpetuating nonsense, please.
units with higher DPS than a carrier [26.7 (+5.3)]:
ultralisk vs. armored [46.4 (+8.7)]
battlecruiser vs. ground [35.6 (+4.4)]
thor vs. ground [46.9 (+4.7)]
immortal vs. armored [34.5 (+3.5)]
charged void ray against massive armored units[32.0 (+4.0)]
and it's towards the bottom of the list when you start comparing cost per supply.
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I think maybe the biggest problem SC2 has is an over emphasis on unit hard counters. Having the correct counter will absolutely destroy a superior army size wise. Yes, I believe unit counters should matter. But it should tip the scale nicely in your favour in an engagement so you win, not roflstomp the opponent in a game ending way. Two max armies clashing should not come out with one side still at 200 and the other at 0. With the exception of gross army mismanagement that is.
The other thing I hate is xel'naga towers. I don't like how these towers can reveal so much of the map. Having just 2 units out on the field allowing you to see 90% of the attack paths just doesn't sit right with me. I much rather map design requiring players to have armies out on the field and fighting to maintain control and sight. There is almost no reason for them, Zerg has ols, overseers and zerglings to control, Terran has sensor towers, el'cheapo marines and free insta scans and Toss has relatively cheap obs they can put everywhere.
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3 units that has to go and has no place in starcraft.
zealot, marine, zergling.
they are so game breaking its not even funny.
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On June 02 2011 03:35 Gescom wrote:
The science vessel was so freaking cool in the single player. =D
No, no, no. No way. I thought it was the coolest unit in the campaign (other than the totally sweet Predator vs. Lings lol), but the last thing SC2 needs is Tank/Thor medics. Imagine being a Zerg and trying to deal with those? There was irradiate, but no EMP, so even NP would be pointless.
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On June 02 2011 03:50 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 03:35 Gescom wrote:
The science vessel was so freaking cool in the single player. =D No, no, no. No way. I thought it was the coolest unit in the campaign (other than the totally sweet Predator vs. Lings lol), but the last thing SC2 needs is Tank/Thor medics. Imagine being a Zerg and trying to deal with those? There was irradiate, but no EMP, so even NP would be pointless.
Should probably rephrase this: The unit looked and moved so cool in SP. Obviously the healing mech units would be the most terribly OP thing ever.
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I think uniqueness of units is a little gone, and the peculiarity of units is very important.
Some units need moving shot to make them interesting.
Roaches would be awesome with moving shot
vikings would be awesome with moving shot
mutalisks would also be awesome with moving shot
I think it needs to be done like this:
the frontal area of the unit has to be aimed at the unit your targeting to do an attack while moving. You can assign the degrees the shot will go off centered so you can do this for balance
Hydra needs instant shot and instant turn speed turn speed.
and give some ground units acceleration and possibly base higher speed.
I think marauders with some acceleration, and slightly higher movement speed would be very interesting
They just need to give more ways to toy with units and give some peculiarity to units. It doesn't need to be intuitive, it needs to be interesting to look at and give advantages.
melee units need slightly large collision boxes to block.movement
scvs and probes and drones need minor acceleration
remove charge and replace it with speed.
Stalkers blink range should be slightly decreased.
Fungal should cause a slowing effect, damage, a slight slowing of firing rate. to give more interactions
Tanks should 40/50
force fields need to have health 250 (armored) health 3 armor. This will reduce the power of lings and marines against force fields(as it should) but allow harder hitting units to create holes in the defenses
Sentries should be slightly faster due to this nerf to forcefields
Stalkers should do 1 more damage
Colossus is tricky, for me, they are hard to make interesting. I think a changing of the beam architecture would be interesting. Possibly longer range is tighter cone
Hydras have speed upgrade now because they always should have
Hellions should have moving shot similar to marines and also have a slightly large model
zerglings should have a slightly higher attack speed
corruption should cause the 1 enemy unit to attack slightly slower(but not do extra damage)
corrupters should have one more range
archons should have slightly larger splash radius
ravens should cost 100/150
banshees need decreased range(like 4) and moving shot
Hellions should have spider mine upgrade(only 1 mine)
Carriers interceptors should heal
Thors need strike cannon removed, 1 less armor a faster ground attack, but lower damage
Ultras need to be slightly smaller, faster, and do maybe 4 more damage. also, cost 50 less gas
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On June 02 2011 03:52 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 03:50 MutaDoom wrote:On June 02 2011 03:35 Gescom wrote:
The science vessel was so freaking cool in the single player. =D No, no, no. No way. I thought it was the coolest unit in the campaign (other than the totally sweet Predator vs. Lings lol), but the last thing SC2 needs is Tank/Thor medics. Imagine being a Zerg and trying to deal with those? There was irradiate, but no EMP, so even NP would be pointless. Should probably rephrase this: The unit looked and moved so cool in SP. Obviously the healing mech units would be the most terribly OP thing ever.
Lol the thought makes me want to ragequit already. Now that you put it like that, though, I'd definitely be down for some Vessel action. What would replace the EMP though?
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I really want to see reaper back in action even though I'm protoss
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EPT
