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On June 02 2011 02:29 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 23:44 Spacedude wrote:On June 01 2011 23:31 Spitfire wrote:On June 01 2011 22:44 Spacedude wrote:
[You guys seems to fail at realizing that there are other elements in this other than BW's core gameplay. Logic is your friend.
BW is superior to SCII by far in its core gameplay no doubt about it. BW seems to have been designed with some logic as to what makes a good RTS. SCII is designed to be 'cool' and new and dumbed down. It's still more than hard enough for me atm, but I feel like the game is holding my hand for crying out load. It's like riding a bikecycle with safety wheels. I don't want that! We'll evolve to be more stupid in time if we adapt filosofies like this, lol.
There were things about Brood War that might be considered bad gameplay had it come out today. Units that were completely redundant, the fact that Terran couldnt leave his base for the first fifteen minutes vs Protoss etc. I not like hand-holding in games either but the question is whats hand-holding and whats just trying to make a game more accessible? Is SC2 hand-holding cause you can rally SCVs onto the mineral line rather then having to select each one individually as it comes out of the CC? Actually seems like a no-brainer thing for a game to let you do but in the eyes of many it makes it less 'hardcore'. Surely the fact former SC 1 pros are completely dominating WC 3 players in the game means the fundamentals of StarCraft gameplay have been carried over really well by Blizzard? I'm not saying brood war was perfect. Nothing is. Also, I'm hardly an expert at BW or SCII, but you don't really have to be to be able to analyze this part of the core gameplay. ''Is SC2 hand-holding cause you can rally SCVs onto the mineral line rather then having to select each one individually as it comes out of the CC?'' Yes, it is. The word macro has little meaning to it when you take out some of the core mechanics of it. Yes, it might be a simple thing in itself, but it's really just a gear that is part of a greater machine, sp to say. A game doesn't become better just because you have to do repetitive tasks manually. Would BW be better if medics didn't auto heal or if units didn't auto-attack? It would for sure make it harder and increase the skill gap as there was more things to do but the game would hardly become more fun because of it.
Who said it did?
It's a game of mixing the right ingredients in the right amount and so on and so forth, obviously.
Also, I normally don't operate it absoluts as a rule as your example was.
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United States427 Posts
On June 02 2011 02:42 Treemonkeys wrote:
The mechanics are easier, but the complexity is about the same, hell, you could argue that it is even more complex with things like gold minerals, destructible debris, xel'naga towers, etc.
I think the rest of your post takes a very level-headed approach to the comparison and should be kept in mind by anyone comparing the two games at this point in time, but the bit about destructible rocks not being a part of brood war (it wasn't rocks per say, but there were things on pro maps that performed the exact same function) and xel'naga towers "adding complexity" kind of irked me the wrong way.
How do Xel'Naga Towers add complexity? It removes a lot of the formerly inherent advantages to actually leaving units on the map during the first ten minutes of the game and having good spotting/map awareness. It does add interest in certain situations for certain, but its a double-edged sword to some extent and that's the crux of my issue with that part your post I suppose.
On June 02 2011 02:46 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 02:44 zawk9 wrote:
Theoretically not having to do these 'repetitive' tasks would open up more room for micro and multi-pronged harassment, but the game to date so far has far less of both of those. Yeah when you compare a year of SC2 to 10 years of developed Brood War play. If you compare SC2 to the first year of BW, that isn't at all true.
We also know a lot more about RTS games in general than we did in the first year of BW. Back then people really had nothing to go on. I can tell you from personal experience that we hadn't even figured out that the keyboard was useful back then (yet I was still enthralled as a second grader watching the game.. funny to think back on it). I sure as hell had no idea what macro or micro was. Comparing the first year of BW to this first year of SC2 isn't even remotely equivalent or fair.
I'm talking about the game to date; not a future scenario when the game has been mapped out. I sure as hell don't know how SC2 will look in ten years time or even if it will still be as alive as today. I will say, however, that I try to keep a positive outlook on the future of the game in general though. That doesn't stop me from constructively criticizing it in hopes of improvement in areas I personally find it lacking to an extent.
Mechanics and strategic depth are not the same thing, and SC2 is still a really, really complex game.
Nobodies saying it isn't, but at this moment in time would you seriously argue that Brood War is not more strategically complex and developed than SC2? Saying the predecessor is more complex isn't saying the game is shallow or has no depth at all.
Mechanics appear far less rewarding than in BW to someone like Idra for sure, but you or I could still go quite far up the ladder by just working on mechanics. Also emphasis of the game shifting to strategy else doesn't give that strategy more depth or make it more layered.
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I'm most excited about the marketplace for some reason... I feel like this will be strong motivation for some really fantastic UMS. I was anticipating great UMS since the announcements of SCII and we haven't really seen anything too spectacular IMO.
And also new multiplayer units :D
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On June 02 2011 02:51 GnarKill wrote:
Heart of the swarm is great. But I hate that they are trying to turn the marketplace into like an app store. I don't care how good a custom is Im not buying it for 2 dollars. Ok, you will not. Others may be interested. So why do you hate something which could be interesting for others?
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On June 02 2011 04:14 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 02:51 GnarKill wrote:
Heart of the swarm is great. But I hate that they are trying to turn the marketplace into like an app store. I don't care how good a custom is Im not buying it for 2 dollars. Ok, you will not. Others may be interested. So why do you hate something which could be interesting for others?
Really? Please take a moment to think about what you said....
Now there are quite a lot of posts in this thread with players voicing their concern about how this will affect the entire map making community, not just the users of it. I'm sure you'll be able to answer your own question then, sigh.
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On June 02 2011 04:31 Spacedude wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 04:14 [F_]aths wrote:On June 02 2011 02:51 GnarKill wrote:
Heart of the swarm is great. But I hate that they are trying to turn the marketplace into like an app store. I don't care how good a custom is Im not buying it for 2 dollars. Ok, you will not. Others may be interested. So why do you hate something which could be interesting for others? Really? Please take a moment to think about what you said.... Now there are quite a lot of posts in this thread with players voicing their concern about how this will affect the entire map making community, not just the users of it. I'm sure you'll be able to answer your own question then, sigh. Not really. It is an option. Maps like Nexus will hardly qualify for being offered for a cost in the Marketplace. If however you want to create new content like textures and 3D models, you can see this as an opportunity.
Offering mappers some money in return (of course Blizzard will take its part of the share, too) could lead to new heights of user generated content. If you don't like it, you don't need to use it. Of course some mappers could decide to put good effort in its map and charge money so you need to pay 5 dollars or something for a map which you otherwise would have gotten free. It still is helping to keep SC2 alive as a gaming platform.
Some mappers could make some money, Blizzard also could generate some income which keeps their interest alive to keep the Battlenet service running for many years to come. As Battle.Net 2.0 is more sophisticated, it requires more money to maintain. When both expansion are sold, from where should they take the money? I rather have a marketplace than a monthly Battle.Net fee.
The marketplace has been announced at Blizzcon 2009 if I remember correctly. Why should the community be concerned just right now? If it would be an issue, the forums would be full of it and make Blizzard to reconsider. Blizzard surely will not put any map in the market place if it does not worth it. Also if the users don't like to pay, nothing will change anyway as a marketplace which is not use is as good as no marketplace whatsoever.
If it will be used, it was the right decision.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2011 03:11 zawk9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 02:42 Treemonkeys wrote:
The mechanics are easier, but the complexity is about the same, hell, you could argue that it is even more complex with things like gold minerals, destructible debris, xel'naga towers, etc. I think the rest of your post takes a very level-headed approach to the comparison and should be kept in mind by anyone comparing the two games at this point in time, but the bit about destructible rocks not being a part of brood war (it wasn't rocks per say, but there were things on pro maps that performed the exact same function) and xel'naga towers "adding complexity" kind of irked me the wrong way. How do Xel'Naga Towers add complexity? It removes a lot of the formerly inherent advantages to actually leaving units on the map during the first ten minutes of the game and having good spotting/map awareness. It does add interest in certain situations for certain, but its a double-edged sword to some extent and that's the crux of my issue with that part your post I suppose. Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 02:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On June 02 2011 02:44 zawk9 wrote:
Theoretically not having to do these 'repetitive' tasks would open up more room for micro and multi-pronged harassment, but the game to date so far has far less of both of those. Yeah when you compare a year of SC2 to 10 years of developed Brood War play. If you compare SC2 to the first year of BW, that isn't at all true. We also know a lot more about RTS games in general than we did in the first year of BW. Back then people really had nothing to go on. I can tell you from personal experience that we hadn't even figured out that the keyboard was useful back then (yet I was still enthralled as a second grader watching the game.. funny to think back on it). I sure as hell had no idea what macro or micro was. Comparing the first year of BW to this first year of SC2 isn't even remotely equivalent or fair. I'm talking about the game to date; not a future scenario when the game has been mapped out. I sure as hell don't know how SC2 will look in ten years time or even if it will still be as alive as today. I will say, however, that I try to keep a positive outlook on the future of the game in general though. That doesn't stop me from constructively criticizing it in hopes of improvement in areas I personally find it lacking to an extent. Show nested quote +Mechanics and strategic depth are not the same thing, and SC2 is still a really, really complex game. Nobodies saying it isn't, but at this moment in time would you seriously argue that Brood War is not more strategically complex and developed than SC2? Saying the predecessor is more complex isn't saying the game is shallow or has no depth at all. Mechanics appear far less rewarding than in BW to someone like Idra for sure, but you or I could still go quite far up the ladder by just working on mechanics. Also emphasis of the game shifting to strategy else doesn't give that strategy more depth or make it more layered.
Destructible rocks was just a dumb thing to say. As far as towers I was thinking that they add another action point that has to be taken, but I guess without them you still need to have units on the map, but I would still argue that the towers still add complexity because of the specific locations to fight over while with general map spotters it is easier to avoid confrontation. In a way towers are a resource to fight over, or a complexity of the "information" resource.
I agree that it isn't fair to compare first year of BW to first year of SC2, but I think it is still more fair than comparing it to current BW play. I guess ultimately they are both different games and in different times and situations so we can only have a casual comparison at best. That said, I think you are underestimating the understanding of RTS at the time. We knew the keyboard was useful back in Warcraft II, and we knew what micro and macro was though we didn't have a name for it. What was lacking was less a theoretical understanding of how to play, but more the work ethic to make it a reality. I'm not saying RTS knowledge hasn't developed since then, I don't think that would even be possible unless everyone playing somehow just refused to learn. What I'm trying to say is that I think BW play is so good not because of general RTS understanding, but because of the extreme compitition that lead to the worth ethic of the players, because of the long term focus on a single game, and because the game was just so good.
Correct me if I am wrong, but there is quite a bit that transfers over to SC2, but also quite a bit that doesn't. We know the basics of macro and scouting, we know its good to get lots of workers and expand as much as possible. The thing is when it comes to *how* to execute these things, we know so much less, and it takes time to find the best timings. If this wasn't true, and if BW knowledge almost perfectly transferred over, then we would not have seen such drastic changes in the meta game in the past year, and it is still changing rapidly - because people would already be doing the "best" style of play that they learned in BW, and it would change much more slowly. Then I would argue that even deeper than that, how to get the most out of the fewest units, one of the things that makes BW so cool to watch, takes even long to figure out because the timings need to be figured out first before there is even much of a need for this.
What sucks is that the balance patches and expansions will slow this down, to the point that I would say we don't even have a solid starting point until after Legacy of the Void. Despite being a retail product, SC2 multiplayer is very much still a work in progress, and effectively a really long beta with an entire pro scene testing it, which could end up being good or bad for the game. I think in terms of designing the best game possible it is a very good approach, but that's only if the pro scene sticks around long enough to put up with it. People always say "they need to get pros to help balance the game" which is what they are already doing with balancing the game and designing the expansions while the game is being played at a pro level.
I'm arguing that the game itself is as strategically complex as BW, or at least will be once we have the final set of units, but the current play of course is not.
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On June 02 2011 00:55 Probe1 wrote:
I dearly hope Heart of the Swarm will remember Kerrigan is not vulnerable. She is not weak. She is the Queen Bitch of the Universe and has killed over 8 billion humans. While everything looks good so far, the intro missions of reclaiming broods are best left to just that- Intro missions. If i'm not spoiling Dominion planets with the scourge of 10,000 Zerglings I'm not going to be happy. If I'm not showing the Tal'darim how it feels to be hunted after so much annoyance in WoL, I'm not going to be happy.
Some types of people worry me. On a side note, was the "Queen Bitch of the Universe" quote the only one from BW? That is the only one I ever hear. Was it just repeated over and over? What is it that is so exciting about that quote? Did you feel hard core because she said a naughty word?
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Kerrigan looks like a confused white girl with a rastafarian (ONE LOVE!) complex and a bad tan
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On June 02 2011 07:37 Clutch8 wrote:
Kerrigan looks like a confused white girl with a rastafarian (ONE LOVE!) complex and a bad tan
kerrigan should be just a humanoid(of course evil and hot one). it's not good that she is black a has dreadlock-like-haircut. I imagined her like the old queen of blades, but no wings or claws everywhere. but still she should be more zergy then she is now. there is an artwork which shows exactly what i'm thinking about.
it is a little bit wierd that zerg swarm is going to be comanded by human. I know that she was changed in the end of WoL. I don't think that it is common that zergs are listening orders from human
there are a lot such silly things from Blizzard right now and i think they will fix it.
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"Q: Are there going to be collectors editions units?
A: Not sure, but it's something that will be decided much later in the development cycle"
Does this mean that a collectors edition is set in stone? I was really curious to if they'd be making a collectors HotS or not. Now I know. ^^ Thanks TL!~
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Treemonkeys BW is so good because of the game mechanics, which SC2 is lacking a lot of in my opinion. Nothing that we know so far is changing that (and i doubt the expansion packs will add anything that would be comparable). However this is a pointless argument because you and others will only get defensive and deny there's anything missing, because you probably aren't familiar with advanced BW. Things like balling up of units is ALWAYS going to make things worse, there's no advantage.
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On June 01 2011 20:09 Dente wrote:
I don't understand all this questions about the ladder. Have you guys played other games? New game = new ladder. New expansion = new ladder.
No I've played only SC1 (and now SC2)
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wonder if dark voice will appear in hots..
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On June 02 2011 07:35 randomness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 00:55 Probe1 wrote:
I dearly hope Heart of the Swarm will remember Kerrigan is not vulnerable. She is not weak. She is the Queen Bitch of the Universe and has killed over 8 billion humans. While everything looks good so far, the intro missions of reclaiming broods are best left to just that- Intro missions. If i'm not spoiling Dominion planets with the scourge of 10,000 Zerglings I'm not going to be happy. If I'm not showing the Tal'darim how it feels to be hunted after so much annoyance in WoL, I'm not going to be happy.
Some types of people worry me. On a side note, was the "Queen Bitch of the Universe" quote the only one from BW? That is the only one I ever hear. Was it just repeated over and over? What is it that is so exciting about that quote? Did you feel hard core because she said a naughty word?
Play Brood War, then you'll understand. It's the quote that perfectly sums up her character.
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On June 02 2011 13:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 07:35 randomness wrote:On June 02 2011 00:55 Probe1 wrote:
I dearly hope Heart of the Swarm will remember Kerrigan is not vulnerable. She is not weak. She is the Queen Bitch of the Universe and has killed over 8 billion humans. While everything looks good so far, the intro missions of reclaiming broods are best left to just that- Intro missions. If i'm not spoiling Dominion planets with the scourge of 10,000 Zerglings I'm not going to be happy. If I'm not showing the Tal'darim how it feels to be hunted after so much annoyance in WoL, I'm not going to be happy.
Some types of people worry me. On a side note, was the "Queen Bitch of the Universe" quote the only one from BW? That is the only one I ever hear. Was it just repeated over and over? What is it that is so exciting about that quote? Did you feel hard core because she said a naughty word? Play Brood War, then you'll understand. It's the quote that perfectly sums up her character.
Kerrigan isn't evil for the sake of evil though, she was manipulated by Mengsk then became corrupted by the Zerg virus. She is a bad ass killer from Ghost training obviously, but not some psychopath. Not unless she is corrupted again.
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On June 02 2011 13:47 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 13:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:On June 02 2011 07:35 randomness wrote:On June 02 2011 00:55 Probe1 wrote:
I dearly hope Heart of the Swarm will remember Kerrigan is not vulnerable. She is not weak. She is the Queen Bitch of the Universe and has killed over 8 billion humans. While everything looks good so far, the intro missions of reclaiming broods are best left to just that- Intro missions. If i'm not spoiling Dominion planets with the scourge of 10,000 Zerglings I'm not going to be happy. If I'm not showing the Tal'darim how it feels to be hunted after so much annoyance in WoL, I'm not going to be happy.
Some types of people worry me. On a side note, was the "Queen Bitch of the Universe" quote the only one from BW? That is the only one I ever hear. Was it just repeated over and over? What is it that is so exciting about that quote? Did you feel hard core because she said a naughty word? Play Brood War, then you'll understand. It's the quote that perfectly sums up her character. Kerrigan isn't evil for the sake of evil though, she was manipulated by Mengsk then became corrupted by the Zerg virus. She is a bad ass killer from Ghost training obviously, but not some psychopath. Not unless she is corrupted again.
Yes, we know how she got there, but just erasing/constantly rewriting lore (which is in essence what they've done repeatedly with SC lore) doesn't make for a good story. It actually makes it crap because it makes the story incoherent from game to game.
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On June 01 2011 16:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 14:54 aztrorisk wrote:
Honestly, with the marketplace idea, I believe it will be a waste.
Currently, only a few games attract enough players to play and games with 60% full popularity takes forever to get enough players to play.
Map makers are having a hard to getting their map out their if the map isn't featured. There are alot of great maps out their but just, nobody is aware of it, and it is really hard to find people to play it.
If Blizzard adds the Marketplace system, then I believe that most people will avoid buying the custom map.
First of all, less popular custom games are already struggling to find enough players. Secondly, if Blizzard restricts players to those who own the mod, then there would be a smaller pool of players. Some custom games with, say, 100-1000 downloads will have a extremely hard time finding players. What good is a mod if you don't have anybody else to play with.
Blizzard+custom maps= fail
Secondly, I agree with the collossi being such a bad unit design. It is fast and it is very polar with its ability. Nothing exciting like reaver micro (not even close). In team battles, mass collossi owns every thing on ground. I'm not saying that it is OP, but I am saying is that it is a bad unit design that makes the game more boring to watch. Honestly, I think collossi unit design is so bad that it cannot be fixed. In addition, Zerg needs a better way of dealing with seige tanks. In SC1, they had dark swarm. The only thing I can think up that they have in sc2 is the mind control. I don't know, give the zerg dark swarm and lurkers back or think of something new because I'm tired of losing with 6 bases, maxed out armies to 2 base terran with a maxed out army (I know, don't let them get maxed oubt ut I am too greedy).
..... Make infestor/broodlord and laugh in the terrans face? If you have 6 bases and you dont have infestors/broodlords you are playing zvt very incorrectly.
thanks a lot for the advice.
JINRO FTW!
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On June 02 2011 13:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 13:47 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On June 02 2011 13:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:On June 02 2011 07:35 randomness wrote:On June 02 2011 00:55 Probe1 wrote:
I dearly hope Heart of the Swarm will remember Kerrigan is not vulnerable. She is not weak. She is the Queen Bitch of the Universe and has killed over 8 billion humans. While everything looks good so far, the intro missions of reclaiming broods are best left to just that- Intro missions. If i'm not spoiling Dominion planets with the scourge of 10,000 Zerglings I'm not going to be happy. If I'm not showing the Tal'darim how it feels to be hunted after so much annoyance in WoL, I'm not going to be happy.
Some types of people worry me. On a side note, was the "Queen Bitch of the Universe" quote the only one from BW? That is the only one I ever hear. Was it just repeated over and over? What is it that is so exciting about that quote? Did you feel hard core because she said a naughty word? Play Brood War, then you'll understand. It's the quote that perfectly sums up her character. Kerrigan isn't evil for the sake of evil though, she was manipulated by Mengsk then became corrupted by the Zerg virus. She is a bad ass killer from Ghost training obviously, but not some psychopath. Not unless she is corrupted again. Yes, we know how she got there, but just erasing/constantly rewriting lore (which is in essence what they've done repeatedly with SC lore) doesn't make for a good story. It actually makes it crap because it makes the story incoherent from game to game.
What "erasing/constantly rewriting lore" are you talking about? You mean how the Overmind wasn't what we thought it was? Even though nothing said in SC2 about the Overmind actually contradicts established facts from the games about the Overmind? Are you talking about how Tassadar isn't truly "dead"? Though I'm not sure what you call being a spirit entity if not "dead". "Living impaired," maybe?
There's a difference between what is actually said and done in the games, and your inferences based on that. Blizzard can violate the latter all they want, because they never actually said those things. Most of the things I hear people complaining about were never actually stated in the games. They're based on players inferring things about what happened.
If Blizzard wants to say that Tassadar's channeling of so much power in his assault of the Overmind caused both of their spirits to be bound to that location, so be it. It contradicts nothing about what actually happened; it's not like Tassadar's saying he never flung himself and the Gantrithor at the Overmind. Similarly, if Blizzard wants to say that the Overmind was corrupted by an external force during its creation, that contradicts nothing about what we know of the Overmind.
Now, you can judge these events on their own merits; you can find them good or terrible as you wish. But there is no "erasing/constantly rewriting lore" happening here.
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Yes, the easiest improvement to make to SC2 is how units ball up. It's as bad a mistake by Blizzard as SC BW pathfinding but it actually has a much bigger effect on the game. Once you knew pathfinding in SC BW is like it is you can easily account for that and completely avoid the issue. Units balling up in SC2 can never be avoided and completely dictates how battles are fought.
And both the writing of a story lacking plot holes and bringing the story in an adult way is something they failed at. I lost a lot of respect for Metzen that I had as a kid. Plans for SC2 were long in the making. He had a lot of time to think about how the story would turn out. If he were a good writer he would have at least an idea of SC2's story while he did the SC BW story line. But they just made up the SC2 story as they went along. They retcon everything and they don't set up the HotS storyline at all in SC2 part 1. Brood mothers? Where did they come from?
If you are skilled you introduced brood mothers in SC BW. Metzen to me is just a confused fake macho drunkard who can't draw and checks his bank account, like everyone else at Blizzard, every day.
People talk about Activision having a bad effect on Blizzard. Why doesn't all this come from Blizzard themselves? Why do you think so many people left after D2?
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