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On May 28 2011 03:14 XXXSmOke wrote:
A simple fix would be to fix the stupid custom game shit we have to deal with.
Namely
-Make the Game not auto START
-let us create our game name 1v1 Master only or 1v1 Master T looking for Z
BOOM. Fixed thx BW your insight is greatly approved.
Well, I think the reason that the game auto-starts is to prevent people from leaving custom games they join. If the game didn't auto start, then people would join, see who their opponent is, and leave if they are not satisfied.
Personally, I really like the idea of disabling ladder for people. I have plenty of friends in Diamond and Platinum who fear playing 1v1s because it would negatively effect their ranking. First real post btw.
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You seem surprised that an entire generation of video game players who have been able to hide behind a cavalcade of team-based ladder structures feel like fish out of water when they stumble into a one-versus-one, one-mistake-ruins-everything ladder environment.
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On May 28 2011 01:25 Westy wrote:
This topic feels really obvious to me, but I could not find another thread on the same subject after 5 minutes of searching so sorry in advance if this is just a duplicate.
Ladder Fear. I am sure you have all heard of it or felt it a couple of times before. And the fact of the matter is there are a large number of people out there unable to play on the ladder because of this fear. Now mix that with the fact a number of people don't actually have many friends on the same skill level as them playing SC2, this creates a situation where there is a proportion of people unable to play 1v1's. (except custom games against random opponents, but the majority of the time there is a huge skill gap in these games).
I feel like this is a problem that although is not of huge significance, could potentially damage the casual starcraft 2 scene, and that has a pretty easy fix. The first idea that comes into my head would be to allow people to turn of ladder ranking. So they can still play against ladder opponents, and their rating (ELO/MMR or what ever it is called) would adjust just like normal, but they would not have a rank or be in a division. This would allow people to easily play games against opponents of the same skill level without having to fight the "Ladder Fear".
So what do you think? Is this a problem that affects you? Can you see any problems with allowing people to turn of ladder ranking?
Discuss
There's a reason why there are no topics on this: it's because the claim is ridiculous.
Oy, another psychological inhibition that plays almost 0 role overall. Really? Ladder fear being a significant (or even insignificant and if insignificant, no reason really to fix it when looking at the grand scheme of things) prevention of the growth of StarCraft II in a direction you don't exactly state clearly (casual scene is very, very general)?
Let's enumerate everything wrong with the OP: And the fact of the matter is there are a large number of people out there unable to play on the ladder because of this fear.
That's a fact? News to me, I heard and think otherwise and in fact, unless you actually asked a good majority of people over each and every regional gateway, I highly doubt this is true or likely at least. You even claim that it is insignificant, yet now there is a large number of people sincerely and severely affected by this fear?
Now mix that with the fact a number of people don't actually have many friends on the same skill level as them playing SC2
Not a fact either. I'm lead to believe otherwise and the beauty of this is that I can make that statement like you did. Where is this idea that people not having many actual friends on the same skill level? It's possible and equally impossible.
That's two claims that lack any actual substance
[...] could potentially damage the casual starcraft 2 scene
What? Now we're worried about the casual StarCraft 2 scene? A scene that takes the game as serious as any other form of entertainment but is somehow subjected and paralyzed by a fear of placement in arbitrary ranking system?
So much ridiculousness. While your solution is something I can agree upon, I don't think it is really needed in the end. Its use is overlapping and already apparent in custom games and such (believe it or not, there is as much variance in ladder games and not significantly as much as a skill gap). Add the above possibility with tournament play and you get two major sets of areas you can practice and improve without needing to resort to your solution.
Overall, I think your claim is silly, but don't worry, because I'm usually skeptical about nearly all these claims that think hinders XYZ aspect of StarCraft II so while you may something there, I'm lead to believe otherwise honestly.
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If you are afraid to ladder even though it doesn't even show your losses unless you are in masters...There is something seriously wrong with you. Blizzard already gave the scared people and the newbs a big hug and saids its okay we love you, there is nothing wrong with losing until you get good.
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I am a player with ladder fear but I use customs to make ladder look like a joke.
When I custom I try to play high to mid master players when I myself am a high diamond, the result is about a 70% losing rate, however once I get back on ladder it feels like im playing someone in platinum and my rating sky rockets. Play until I hit a wall rinse and repeat. (great way to improve quick or at least jump leagues)
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I'm not afraid of losing when I ladder, I'm afraid of getting demoted. But that brings into question why I would care so much about my league anyways. Well, on SC forums, I come across the sentiment many times that either you're a masters/diamond or you're "terrible" and totally noobish. I guess this problem can be solved by simply ignoring that sentiment.
Anyways, what I do get over my ladder fear is to play FFA's. It's an environment where you don't depend on someone of greater skill to win for you. Furthermore, whenever I get double-teamed or get attacked out of position while I'm attacking someone else, I get mad that this wouldn't have happened if there was only 1 opponent. Thus I transition myself into playing ladder.
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On May 28 2011 02:16 stevarius wrote:
Ladder fear stifles competition because it reduces diversity. Lack of diversity and players hinders competition which in turn hurts SC2's competitive aspect to some degree.
Except that anyone scared of laddering would be shit from the competitive aspect since they would never play and be wrecked by their own nerves.
Ladder fear however is a great boost for stuff like GSL, NASL, IPL etc. where people with ladder fear can instead instantly feel good by pissing on someone else and sounding superior. And because they never play, they eatch this stuff more ^^
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I used to have ladder fear but back then I still never thought of it hurting the game. I still had custom games to play, team games to play and the more 1v1's I played I just overcame it. Losing games just made me feel so pissed I felt like I needed to play more.
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a possible solution is to add a feature where you can hide your ladder ranking from the public view, I think a lot of the ladder fear is people worrying about others viewing their profile and handing down some kind of subjective opinion on your skill level based on what your profile says...
If you were able to hide your stats from the public and have a private profile, I think this would encourage people to play ladder games without any fear of outside criticism on their performance.
But really, it just comes down to people getting over that hump of initial fear and just playing a bunch of games, eventually the feeling goes away when you realize nobody cares about anyone elses ranking but their own.
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I don't really have this 'ladder fear', I guess I used to when I first started, but I realized that in order to get mass games in, and practice my mechanics and get better is to ladder and not care about "omg, am I going to lose? I'm going to screw up my w/l ratio." etc etc.
Now I just ladder to warm up, refine some strats and try out new builds.
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On May 28 2011 03:30 MoonfireSpam wrote:
Ladder fear however is a great boost for stuff like GSL, NASL, IPL etc. where people with ladder fear can instead instantly feel good by pissing on someone else and sounding superior. And because they never play, they eatch this stuff more ^^
"instantly feel good by pissing on someone else and sounding superior"
What exactly do you mean by that?
Are you implying that if you watch the competitive scene and don't ladder you aren't a starcraft fan?
I don't play sc2 anymore and i still watch competitive sc2 because i enjoy to watch it. I just don't enjoy playing it with fear of the ladder.
What Dj wheat suggested above
On May 28 2011 01:57 djWHEAT wrote:
I know there are Custom Games, but I think BNET could benefit from one of the things that many console games have introduced. Basically they have Ranked matches and Public matches. Obviously ranked matches will count towards your rising rank, while Public matches would still PIT you against people of your skill level, without having a direct effect on your rank.
If there was an easier way to present this to the masses, it might help solve some of those problems.
The "fear" of hitting Find Match may be reduced if it didn't actually count towards anything.
Is 100% true.
My issue with sc2 would be Completely solved, if there was a system where i could play against opponents and it didn't count for anything.
A good example of this, is League of Legends. It offers a level to 30 system, where by you have to play about 200-400 games to hit 30, and then you can either play ranked matches, or continue the matches you were playing before. The unranked matches are also managed by elo, but there is no pressure to constantly perform, its casual and gives you the option to play ranked, or to play casually in unranked. It also allows you to get better in the game by playing unranked instead of rushing into ranked when you hit maxed level.
With starcraft, your options are limited. You can either, play league, play customs(don't have any friends that play anymore) and customs are random skill level opponents, or you can play against computers.
If you added the unranked option, it would allow people to get better at the game, and be confident to go into ranked and progress through the leagues easier.
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Yea i completely understand what you mean, i had this back in BW and it annoyed me. I would only play 2v2's 3v3's etc and what not with my friends but i was never able to mindlessly ladder and practice like my friends did, i played like 3-4 games in WGtour and i started feeling shitty about it <.<.
There was just this feeling of well i dont play 1v1 so im probably no good at it why bother, but if you want to improve is the only way. SC2 came and my friends who were used to playing team games only did that, and for a while i tried convincing them to play 1v1's with me or ladder at the same time as me so if we lost we could encourage each other but that didnt work. I ditched them and i started playing ladder, at this level is very easy to spot why u lost/won if u have good knowledge of the game so u dont need to watch replays of your lost games and that kind of stuff. You just play if u win good if not then too bad and u continue laddering so u can practice on your macro/micro, i got over it u just have to do it as well.
Read some stuff on your race if you're unsure on how to play it properly and ask advice to friends who play and may know better, the rest is just practice and confidence will come with it.
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Take it a step further.
Game type 1: Regular Ladder
Game type 2: Custom Games
Game type 3: The OP's recommended non-ranked ladder - but add a filter to make it more customizable so that people can choose which race they want to match up against. That would allow people to work on a specific match-up, or work on a new race, without having to tamper with their primary ladder rank.
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Yes it can definitely hurt SC2, but in a good way.
+ Show Spoiler +to separate the wheat from the chaff
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On May 28 2011 01:27 zTz wrote:
No, theres nothing wrong with it; if u are scared of ladder but willing to do a random custom 1v1 and then compain of the skill gap, then just play ladder which is slotting you as best as it can. It's designed to be 50:50 win rate, so expect losing streaks and winning streaks... If you dont wanna 1v1 just do 2v2's 3v3's 4v4's random, a lot less pressure and more freedom to have a good time without trying to be competitive..
Eventually you'll run into a few of the same faces in team randoms, or even have just one good random team and end up inviting to play together, eventually you can start customs with them and build up your self confidence. Ladder is the best thing for casual imo...
this
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On May 28 2011 03:24 Torte de Lini wrote:Let's enumerate everything wrong with the OP: Show nested quote +And the fact of the matter is there are a large number of people out there unable to play on the ladder because of this fear. That's a fact? News to me, I heard and think otherwise and in fact, unless you actually asked a good majority of people over each and every regional gateway, I highly doubt this is true or likely at least. You even claim that it is insignificant, yet now there is a large number of people sincerely and severely affected by this fear? Show nested quote +Now mix that with the fact a number of people don't actually have many friends on the same skill level as them playing SC2 Not a fact either. I'm lead to believe otherwise and the beauty of this is that I can make that statement like you did. Where is this idea that people not having many actual friends on the same skill level? It's possible and equally impossible. That's two claims that lack any actual substance
So much for no other threads on it because it is "utterly ridiculous"
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=anxiety&t=t&f=-1&u=&gb=date
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxiety
I know a ton of people afflicted with both. I have the same problem with not having a lot of friends my level, and a lot of my friends have the same problem - we're all over the map skillwise.
And I always have to overcome the...I wouldn't call it fear, but rather the anxiety of playing ladder whenever I haven't played for a while and I come back to it. And I know a lot of people who are the same way about it.
And quite frankly, you don't need hard data to prove either of these - its really obvious that it happens to a lot of people, just based on reading the comments on the various threads that have popped up about this over time. That said, I doubt it has much if any effect on SC2 as a whole as the OP suggests...
The idea of the OP isn't bad though - how could an alternate unranked ladder be bad? It could allow you to work on other races, etc. without getting paired in custom games against bronze and silver people who leave once the countdown starts because they just checked and saw you were in masters.
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Would you really have enough people to play against on a hidden ranking ladder? I'm not sure about the number but I for one would never play an unranked ladder game over a ranked one, what's the point in playing a game which doesn't mean anything when you can play one where you know the players are going to try harder because they're at least playing for something?
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I don't have any ladder fear, I just want to keep getting better and test myself against as many opponents as possible. But btw, isn't(was) this true with Brood War?
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This would be a terrible idea. First off MMR is pretty much reflected in your points. If you want to be casual player than just play custom games or you know what? You can casually ladder and not care about ur wins/losses. Why else did Blizzard remove loss counts for diamond and lower? So players like you can Ladder without knowing how many games you really lost.
This post is utterly pointless and just proves how being scared to play a game is quite sad even more sad when blizzard implemented such a feature to remove loss count and you're still too scared to play.
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1v1 isn't for everyone.
with that said they should give some TLC for team games.
update maps. (bring back hunters for god sakes - or something similar) and team melee.
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EPT
