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+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2011 01:25 Westy wrote:
This topic feels really obvious to me, but I could not find another thread on the same subject after 5 minutes of searching so sorry in advance if this is just a duplicate.
Ladder Fear. I am sure you have all heard of it or felt it a couple of times before. And the fact of the matter is there are a large number of people out there unable to play on the ladder because of this fear. Now mix that with the fact a number of people don't actually have many friends on the same skill level as them playing SC2, this creates a situation where there is a proportion of people unable to play 1v1's. (except custom games against random opponents, but the majority of the time there is a huge skill gap in these games).
I feel like this is a problem that although is not of huge significance, could potentially damage the casual starcraft 2 scene, and that has a pretty easy fix. The first idea that comes into my head would be to allow people to turn of ladder ranking. So they can still play against ladder opponents, and their rating (ELO/MMR or what ever it is called) would adjust just like normal, but they would not have a rank or be in a division. This would allow people to easily play games against opponents of the same skill level without having to fight the "Ladder Fear".
So what do you think? Is this a problem that affects you? Can you see any problems with allowing people to turn of ladder ranking?
Discuss
actually the OP is a great idea
add this feature then they can bring win loss back
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On May 28 2011 03:50 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:24 Torte de Lini wrote:Let's enumerate everything wrong with the OP: And the fact of the matter is there are a large number of people out there unable to play on the ladder because of this fear. That's a fact? News to me, I heard and think otherwise and in fact, unless you actually asked a good majority of people over each and every regional gateway, I highly doubt this is true or likely at least. You even claim that it is insignificant, yet now there is a large number of people sincerely and severely affected by this fear? Now mix that with the fact a number of people don't actually have many friends on the same skill level as them playing SC2 Not a fact either. I'm lead to believe otherwise and the beauty of this is that I can make that statement like you did. Where is this idea that people not having many actual friends on the same skill level? It's possible and equally impossible. That's two claims that lack any actual substance So much for no other threads on it because it is "utterly ridiculous" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=anxiety&t=t&f=-1&u=&gb=datehttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxietyI know a ton of people afflicted with both. I have the same problem with not having a lot of friends my level, and a lot of my friends have the same problem - we're all over the map skillwise. And I always have to overcome the...I wouldn't call it fear, but rather the anxiety of playing ladder whenever I haven't played for a while and I come back to it. And I know a lot of people who are the same way about it. And quite frankly, you don't need hard data to prove either of these - its really obvious that it happens to a lot of people, just based on reading the comments on the various threads that have popped up about this over time. That said, I doubt it has much if any effect on SC2 as a whole as the OP suggests... The idea of the OP isn't bad though - how could an alternate unranked ladder be bad? It could allow you to work on other races, etc. without getting paired in custom games against bronze and silver people who leave once the countdown starts because they just checked and saw you were in masters.
12 topics in a span of one year in a community that isn't the majority of B.Net (of all regions, as far as I know, it isn't, but I could be wrong).
Then you go on to proceed a Liquipedia article that doesn't really state any numbers just "many people", presuming the many members on TL, which doesn't appear to be too many to be perfectly honest.
And to top it all of? Your anecdote I know a ton of people afflicted with both. I have the same problem with not having a lot of friends my level, and a lot of my friends have the same problem - we're all over the map skillwise.
I'm still unconvinced.
Though I never said the idea was bad, but the OP's subject or statement of a problem is just ridiculous. It's another stab at the idea that SC2 is being hindered by some trivial concept of fear. How do we even know there is a hindrance with SC2?
There are so many assumptions implicit and explicit that makes this topic just so redundantly pointless. I'm probably being rude here, but how is this different from the zillion other topics that try to figure out why the "growth of E-Sports" is being halted by other arbitrary factors.
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Ladder fear isn't hurting SC2, people who fear the ladder are.
What do we do when we're afraid to ladder? We're here, on TL, looking at threads and watching streams. We tell ourselves doing these things are supplements to improvement. What a crock.
The best way we can learn from the pros isn't watching their games, it's practicing how they practice i.e. mass gaming. Whether or not you have the time to play as much as they do is irrelevant. The correlation still exists: more games --> improvement. Think of how much better of a place TL would be if the skill level of average users were bumped up a bit.
I realize, by writing this post, I'm being super hypocritical... but oh well!
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I think the OP's idea is great!
I would like people to notice a few points.
The vast majority of SC2 players have never read TL and will never.
The vast majority of SC2 players do not care you do not approve of their approach to the game (at all). You proposing methods to "cure" their ladder fear has no value (at all)...
It is a known fact that ladder fear hinder the game to some extent, else why would have Blizzard hid lost games from the panel. Blizzard do not move without hard data, that was a direct acknowledgment of the problem.
There's still a major problem to the OP's solution. It would end up dividing the ladder in 2. Then, if there was to be a massive exodus to the unranked ladder I think a few strong egos here would not appreciate being demoted from diamond to the bronze division they have so much contempt for.
Balancing multiple ladders is hard and annoying and I don't think Blizzard is pleased by the idea.
PS: If you want the game to grow as a eSport you actually need these casual unranked people, they're the general public. You need them for sponsors to get motivated. And you need a LOT of them to get a slight chance to approach anything remotely looking like Korea (from faaar faaar faaar away).
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On May 28 2011 15:31 freakhill wrote:
There's still a major problem to the OP's solution. It would end up dividing the ladder in 2. Then, if there was to be a massive exodus to the unranked ladder I think a few strong egos here would not appreciate being demoted from diamond to the bronze division they have so much contempt for.
Balancing multiple ladders is hard and annoying and I don't think Blizzard is pleased by the idea.
I don't see why unranked and ranked can't play games together. Instead of removing players from the league/ranking system entirely, just allow players to choose whether they want a match to be ranked or unranked when they search. Both options will still count towards MMR so there will only be one ladder system, the difference being that choosing unranked won't affect your points or be recorded in your profile. You'll still be subject to promotion/demotion between leagues if you play a ranked game after you've significantly changed your MMR through unranked, but in other respects the unranked games are worry-free.
I don't think ladder fear is about losing for most people -- it's about losing publicly.
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On May 28 2011 14:08 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:50 Gnial wrote:On May 28 2011 03:24 Torte de Lini wrote:Let's enumerate everything wrong with the OP: And the fact of the matter is there are a large number of people out there unable to play on the ladder because of this fear. That's a fact? News to me, I heard and think otherwise and in fact, unless you actually asked a good majority of people over each and every regional gateway, I highly doubt this is true or likely at least. You even claim that it is insignificant, yet now there is a large number of people sincerely and severely affected by this fear? Now mix that with the fact a number of people don't actually have many friends on the same skill level as them playing SC2 Not a fact either. I'm lead to believe otherwise and the beauty of this is that I can make that statement like you did. Where is this idea that people not having many actual friends on the same skill level? It's possible and equally impossible. That's two claims that lack any actual substance So much for no other threads on it because it is "utterly ridiculous" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=anxiety&t=t&f=-1&u=&gb=datehttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxietyI know a ton of people afflicted with both. I have the same problem with not having a lot of friends my level, and a lot of my friends have the same problem - we're all over the map skillwise. And I always have to overcome the...I wouldn't call it fear, but rather the anxiety of playing ladder whenever I haven't played for a while and I come back to it. And I know a lot of people who are the same way about it. And quite frankly, you don't need hard data to prove either of these - its really obvious that it happens to a lot of people, just based on reading the comments on the various threads that have popped up about this over time. That said, I doubt it has much if any effect on SC2 as a whole as the OP suggests... The idea of the OP isn't bad though - how could an alternate unranked ladder be bad? It could allow you to work on other races, etc. without getting paired in custom games against bronze and silver people who leave once the countdown starts because they just checked and saw you were in masters. 12 topics in a span of one year in a community that isn't the majority of B.Net (of all regions, as far as I know, it isn't, but I could be wrong). Then you go on to proceed a Liquipedia article that doesn't really state any numbers just "many people", presuming the many members on TL, which doesn't appear to be too many to be perfectly honest. And to top it all of? Your anecdote Show nested quote +I know a ton of people afflicted with both. I have the same problem with not having a lot of friends my level, and a lot of my friends have the same problem - we're all over the map skillwise. I'm still unconvinced. Though I never said the idea was bad, but the OP's subject or statement of a problem is just ridiculous. It's another stab at the idea that SC2 is being hindered by some trivial concept of fear. How do we even know there is a hindrance with SC2? There are so many assumptions implicit and explicit that makes this topic just so redundantly pointless. I'm probably being rude here, but how is this different from the zillion other topics that try to figure out why the "growth of E-Sports" is being halted by other arbitrary factors.
I get it, the post pissed you off. Some of what you said is correct, some of the premise of the post aren't great. But you're really reaching to try to make EVERYTHING in the post wrong. If you're gonna take the time to make a huge, aggressive, angry post with the intention of completely shutting someone down, you should probably run a reasonableness check on what you're saying, rather than going overkill on everything and making yourself look...not so great.
Your logic seems to be, "there are 12 threads...a few hundred comments...that means only a few hundred people have anxiety from SC2, because whenever anyone feels anxiety when they ladder they post on TL about it."
Come on...really?
Rather than going, "it isn't anything cause I didn't feel the anxiety, and even though there are 12 threads, a liquipedia article, and blizzard has already acknowledged its existence by removing loss counters for people below masters, I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist in any meaningful way", just take a little check on what you're saying, try to think clearly about it - otherwise you're just flaming people on premises as sketchy as this OP.
edit. My apologies for targeting your post specifically, I'll leave it at that. A lot of people seem to be missing the OP's main point, "that anxiety exists and here is my solution..." and are getting caught up on the semantics of the peripheral things he has said - I felt you more so than anyone (which is why I quoted you explicitly).
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If ur scared go to Church ^^ The game is competitive, people go to ladder to compete and try to get better. You shouldn't be scared to ladder cuz you are always gonna play someone ur level, if ur losing then u'll play worse people. What is there to be scared of? It doesn't even show your record for cryin out loud...
If anything people who aren't competitive or "scared to ladder" should want to ladder instead of playing a custom game. At least when u ladder ur getting someone you have a shot at beating, if you join a custom and get put vs a Master or someone who completely out-classes you then wuts the fun in playing that compared to having a fair shot in a ladder game vs someone ur level?
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On May 28 2011 02:26 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
People who haven't played WC3 just don't understand why you are right
You need something to practice, and the ladder right now cannot give you that. Having a practice partner is such a boring task most of the time, and the match making system fit that purpose perfectly
So in WC3, you first made an account where the stats don't matter, you train, then you go on your very account and lvl up with the best % possible.
In SC2 you can't. Unfortunately, WC3's ladder is practically unplayable for precisely this reason. The smurf accounts pretty much just took over. Level is no longer an indicator of actual skill, which makes it incredibly difficult to actually play against anyone in a fair match-up. The difference in skill is sometimes about as wide as the Grand Canyon.
That's because the game is dead and nobody care anymore.
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No, i'm 100% sure that it is not hurting Sc2. Good players don't have that stupid fear (btw, i have it too lol)
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On May 28 2011 17:03 Belha wrote:
No, i'm 100% sure that it is not hurting Sc2. Good players don't have that stupid fear (btw, i have it too lol)
It can still hurt a game even when the top players don't suffer from it. Pro gamers only make a few promille of players, or probably less.
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On May 28 2011 17:06 teekesselchen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:03 Belha wrote:
No, i'm 100% sure that it is not hurting Sc2. Good players don't have that stupid fear (btw, i have it too lol) It can still hurt a game even when the top players don't suffer from it. Pro gamers only make a few promille of players, or probably less.
I said good, not top. I'm mid masters and still consider myself a totally uber crappy player.
I'm pretty sure that the ladder fear is sad, but is definitely not hurting the game.
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I think it hurts the growth of the playerbase (particularly the online part), thus hurts the growth of Starcraft as an eSport.
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Not sure if this has been posted on this thread yet but we have this great thread on TL that allows you to find practice partners. That and watching streams/VODs is a good way to boost confidence and skill.
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On May 28 2011 16:29 ShadowDrgn wrote:
I don't see why unranked and ranked can't play games together. Instead of removing players from the league/ranking system entirely, just allow players to choose whether they want a match to be ranked or unranked when they search. Both options will still count towards MMR so there will only be one ladder system, the difference being that choosing unranked won't affect your points or be recorded in your profile. You'll still be subject to promotion/demotion between leagues if you play a ranked game after you've significantly changed your MMR through unranked, but in other respects the unranked games are worry-free.
I don't think ladder fear is about losing for most people -- it's about losing publicly.
Because ranked ladder is still a competitive environment. One of the premises is that everybody play under the same rules. It would undermine the proper nature of the ranked ladder. In the end it would very much probably be the same but it's a problem of image and approach. There is no simple answer and there will be angry people...
[edit] grammar
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If you have a friend that is higher rank than you than a real friend would help you out so you can move up ladder. Maybe go over replays and play against you so they can tell you how to improve. No I think people not being able to accept defeat is what is hurting starcraft and not the ladder. This is what it boils down to. I guess people view ladder as some kind of epeen rather than something they enjoy doing. If people's attitude changed than the playerbase as a whole would get better and better while at the same time producing new talent.
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i used to suffer from it and the only way is to play and keep on playing. As soon as a game is done press play and play again, obviously unless u dont know why you lost and need to watch the replay, 90% of the time I know why ive lost because of my bad play, or just not being focused...
But now I will play a game even if im not warmed up, as I know losing 2 games I can just go and win 2 games staight after and that im playing people around my level.
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anyone with a "fear" of playing a video game on ladder is really an idiot
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god please stop with bs threads like this. Ruining SC2?! oh come on and lighten up on the exaggerations. nothing is ruining sc2 right now and it sure as hell aint ladder FEAR. rofl.
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On May 28 2011 17:47 rycho wrote:
anyone with a "fear" of playing a video game on ladder is really an idiot
People need to grow up and realize that that kind of attitude won't really help the growth of SC2 as an eSport...
Bring more people to the game, don't deject them...
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On May 28 2011 17:50 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:47 rycho wrote:
anyone with a "fear" of playing a video game on ladder is really an idiot People need to grow up and realize that that kind of attitude won't really help the growth of SC2 as an eSport... Bring more people to the game, don't deject them...
reject them*
and to get to your point, if blizz does what the OP says and caters to the kids who are scared to ladder (cant believe I am even acknowledging this) THEN the game will be ruined because now the focus is taken away from the competitive side of SC2, the competitive side being related to....drum roll... esports!
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EPT
