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Ladder fear (from my own experience, not a general statement) isn't caused by it's design or getting ranked. It's mainly caused by the fact that certain people don't like to acknowledge there are others who are better than oneself. 1on1 struggles always involve a direct comparison and some people simply can't take being compared. Hide the score or the ranking all you want, 1on1 comparison will create an aversion in many people.
Even on chat, some people are reluctant to pick custom matches. I think this is because every player is represented by a "profile page" which helps personify your opponents (Everyone having one and only one profile helps very much). On other types of games or platforms, people playing are usually just names and the event is usually a team or ffa match. 1on1 ladder on the other hand (or even a custom match), what happens is a battle of wits with a pretty well personified entity. The aversion to single confrontation is inherent in most people. I don't think ladder fear will go away without purging profiles, and obviously, this will hurt the game more than the fear itself.
The best way to keep people interested in the scene, imho, would be holding and advertising online tournaments on b.net which are broadcasted with a delay. They could also introduce some kind of mild betting system where portraits/decals are awarded to winners
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I do not udnerstand the fear of loosing to someone who you have no connection to whatsoever, I do not enjoy or even take lightly to loosing, it makes me incredibly pissed of, especialy it it was a game that I feelt I had a good chance of winning. However this does not make me scared of playing more. Is this some kind of mental issue like beeing scared of/bad at talking to girls because you have never done it?
I might be a bit biased however since I decided to learn SC:BW in 2006 and had a 45games straight losingstreak on EU battle.net untill I picked up my first win (because he was late morphing his sunken colonies) after which I went on loosing another 50 game untill I could actualy execute my build well enough to pull of a win. After this I realized taht "n00bs only" meant "I want you to be bad so I can win" and then I learned about Iccup after which I started playing oponents closer to my skill level and ended up about C- ranking.
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I don`t understand the fear...I mean why play a game if you are scared to lose. What kind of games that are similar to starcraft where there isn`t losing and winning?
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As someone who suffers from social anxiety disorder, allow me to explain a little about why the people saying "get over it" are missing the point.
For starters, some of us can't get over it, and trust me, I would love to. Others with this condition that I have talked to also resoundingly agree that the "ladder fear" is not a fear of losing; instead, it is the most common symptom of social anxiety disorder, a fear of being judged or criticized or embarrassed in front of others.
Losing, in and of itself, is not embarrassing. At least, not in SC2, when it is common knowledge that everyone is bound to lose. Despite knowing this, I can't help but feel very nervous whenever I lose. Why? Because I am afraid (unrealistically so) that I am being judged by the other player, even if I never see him again in my play.
Trust me, if I could "get over it," I would. It impacts my real life a lot more than it does this game, but I just thought I should elaborate a little on why at least myself and a handful of others I know experience the titular condition.
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On May 28 2011 16:31 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 14:08 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 28 2011 03:50 Gnial wrote:On May 28 2011 03:24 Torte de Lini wrote:Let's enumerate everything wrong with the OP: And the fact of the matter is there are a large number of people out there unable to play on the ladder because of this fear. That's a fact? News to me, I heard and think otherwise and in fact, unless you actually asked a good majority of people over each and every regional gateway, I highly doubt this is true or likely at least. You even claim that it is insignificant, yet now there is a large number of people sincerely and severely affected by this fear? Now mix that with the fact a number of people don't actually have many friends on the same skill level as them playing SC2 Not a fact either. I'm lead to believe otherwise and the beauty of this is that I can make that statement like you did. Where is this idea that people not having many actual friends on the same skill level? It's possible and equally impossible. That's two claims that lack any actual substance So much for no other threads on it because it is "utterly ridiculous" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=anxiety&t=t&f=-1&u=&gb=datehttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxietyI know a ton of people afflicted with both. I have the same problem with not having a lot of friends my level, and a lot of my friends have the same problem - we're all over the map skillwise. And I always have to overcome the...I wouldn't call it fear, but rather the anxiety of playing ladder whenever I haven't played for a while and I come back to it. And I know a lot of people who are the same way about it. And quite frankly, you don't need hard data to prove either of these - its really obvious that it happens to a lot of people, just based on reading the comments on the various threads that have popped up about this over time. That said, I doubt it has much if any effect on SC2 as a whole as the OP suggests... The idea of the OP isn't bad though - how could an alternate unranked ladder be bad? It could allow you to work on other races, etc. without getting paired in custom games against bronze and silver people who leave once the countdown starts because they just checked and saw you were in masters. 12 topics in a span of one year in a community that isn't the majority of B.Net (of all regions, as far as I know, it isn't, but I could be wrong). Then you go on to proceed a Liquipedia article that doesn't really state any numbers just "many people", presuming the many members on TL, which doesn't appear to be too many to be perfectly honest. And to top it all of? Your anecdote I know a ton of people afflicted with both. I have the same problem with not having a lot of friends my level, and a lot of my friends have the same problem - we're all over the map skillwise. I'm still unconvinced. Though I never said the idea was bad, but the OP's subject or statement of a problem is just ridiculous. It's another stab at the idea that SC2 is being hindered by some trivial concept of fear. How do we even know there is a hindrance with SC2? There are so many assumptions implicit and explicit that makes this topic just so redundantly pointless. I'm probably being rude here, but how is this different from the zillion other topics that try to figure out why the "growth of E-Sports" is being halted by other arbitrary factors. I get it, the post pissed you off. Some of what you said is correct, some of the premise of the post aren't great. But you're really reaching to try to make EVERYTHING in the post wrong. If you're gonna take the time to make a huge, aggressive, angry post with the intention of completely shutting someone down, you should probably run a reasonableness check on what you're saying, rather than going overkill on everything and making yourself look...not so great. Your logic seems to be, "there are 12 threads...a few hundred comments...that means only a few hundred people have anxiety from SC2, because whenever anyone feels anxiety when they ladder they post on TL about it." Come on...really? Rather than going, "it isn't anything cause I didn't feel the anxiety, and even though there are 12 threads, a liquipedia article, and blizzard has already acknowledged its existence by removing loss counters for people below masters, I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist in any meaningful way", just take a little check on what you're saying, try to think clearly about it - otherwise you're just flaming people on premises as sketchy as this OP. edit. My apologies for targeting your post specifically, I'll leave it at that. A lot of people seem to be missing the OP's main point, "that anxiety exists and here is my solution..." and are getting caught up on the semantics of the peripheral things he has said - I felt you more so than anyone (which is why I quoted you explicitly).
You do realize that both your argument and mine are equally possible?
Also, reread my post, I gave him points where it's due, don't make into a bad guy with more generalizations.
I'll stop here. To be quite frank, to continue arguing my side would equal to yours: pointless. Neither of us know if there is really a significant amount of people with this problem or not.
But take note that the OP says that perhaps it is a trivial issue.
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On May 28 2011 14:07 ShooTouts wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2011 01:25 Westy wrote:
This topic feels really obvious to me, but I could not find another thread on the same subject after 5 minutes of searching so sorry in advance if this is just a duplicate.
Ladder Fear. I am sure you have all heard of it or felt it a couple of times before. And the fact of the matter is there are a large number of people out there unable to play on the ladder because of this fear. Now mix that with the fact a number of people don't actually have many friends on the same skill level as them playing SC2, this creates a situation where there is a proportion of people unable to play 1v1's. (except custom games against random opponents, but the majority of the time there is a huge skill gap in these games).
I feel like this is a problem that although is not of huge significance, could potentially damage the casual starcraft 2 scene, and that has a pretty easy fix. The first idea that comes into my head would be to allow people to turn of ladder ranking. So they can still play against ladder opponents, and their rating (ELO/MMR or what ever it is called) would adjust just like normal, but they would not have a rank or be in a division. This would allow people to easily play games against opponents of the same skill level without having to fight the "Ladder Fear".
So what do you think? Is this a problem that affects you? Can you see any problems with allowing people to turn of ladder ranking?
Discuss actually the OP is a great idea add this feature then they can bring win loss back
I would definitely allow them to implement this feature for the ability to see our losses again. I hate that we can't.
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I personally just don't like how the ranking system and mmr work at all. I'm a mid diamond player, I consistently matchup and beat rank 1 diamonds and masters players. I just don't play often. So I'm mid diamond. I see players who have over 1000 games, a crappy record, a higher rank than me, and I crush them. I honestly don't even take the rankings seriously because of how (mass gaming>actual skill) in the ranking system.
I think what is also hurting me is that I'm simply loosing interest in SC2. I've begun playing BW again. Sc2 is a shallow game compared to the depth of BW. The skill ceiling is so low that there is barely a difference from one league to the next.
One of the biggest factors why I don't play ladder much is because it just isn't fun. If I had to guess I'd say at least 70%+ of my games are vs cheese or all ins. In sc2 the burden of skill is on the defending player which is just plain bad game design. It seems 5x harder to defend cheese or all ins than to execute them.
Also, I play protoss. Which may tie in with my previous point, because protoss's ability to defend all ins and cheese is sub-par imo. I'm sick of re-learning matchups because of drastic never ending changes, I'm sick of nerfs, I'm sick of having core units that are not cost effective vs anything.
TL;DR The overall game design is weak, all ins and cheese are 5x easier than defending them, ladder promotes people who mass game faster than people who play less and consistently beat mass gamers of higher rank. I'm pretty sure I would be mid (or higher) masters if I played 1000 games, I just don't have the desire to. Sc2 isn't that fun, most people on ladder have no interest in "being good at sc2", there only goal is to "steal" wins vs better opponents by cheesing. I'm going to wait and see how HOTS is after release before spending anymore money.
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They already removed losses, how more fucking easier on noobs do they have to make it? If you're too much of a pussy to play 1v1 in a videogame then nothing is going to change to fix that. Just don't play it. The whining about ladder anxiety is really pathetic.
Edit: the post above me is good. Reborn8u is correct, why there is so many people wasting their own time and everyone elses time by all-in every game i don't know. But the game design also encourages this.
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On May 29 2011 01:19 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +TL;DR The overall game design is weak, all ins and cheese are 5x easier than defending them, ladder promotes people who mass game faster than people who play less and consistently beat mass gamers of higher rank. I'm pretty sure I would be mid (or higher) masters if I played 1000 games, I just don't have the desire to. Sc2 isn't that fun, most people on ladder have no interest in "being good at sc2", there only goal is to "steal" wins vs better opponents by cheesing. I'm going to wait and see how HOTS is after release before spending anymore money.
I'd say this is pretty close to hitting the nail on the head, at least for me, it's not really a fear of laddering, its just pretty damn frustrating sometimes. You play a really long drawn out macro game, there is a ton of back and forth and you finally win with a well timed tech switch or something. Then the next game you don't scout a hidden starport and lose all your earned points and even more instantly. Or you check the highest ranked player in your division and notice his BO every game consists of 10/11/12 rax marine spam, and you lose some motivation. Not balance whining, just some examples.
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On May 29 2011 00:54 DxT.SuSaNoO wrote:
As someone who suffers from social anxiety disorder, allow me to explain a little about why the people saying "get over it" are missing the point.
For starters, some of us can't get over it, and trust me, I would love to. Others with this condition that I have talked to also resoundingly agree that the "ladder fear" is not a fear of losing; instead, it is the most common symptom of social anxiety disorder, a fear of being judged or criticized or embarrassed in front of others.
Losing, in and of itself, is not embarrassing. At least, not in SC2, when it is common knowledge that everyone is bound to lose. Despite knowing this, I can't help but feel very nervous whenever I lose. Why? Because I am afraid (unrealistically so) that I am being judged by the other player, even if I never see him again in my play.
Trust me, if I could "get over it," I would. It impacts my real life a lot more than it does this game, but I just thought I should elaborate a little on why at least myself and a handful of others I know experience the titular condition.
I agree , Im not afarid to loose games , what Im afraid is that the other player will judge me even if I know hes just a random player like me and it doesnt matter , its just too hard sometimes.
Shit have I social disorder like you? <:
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i mostly disagree with you except for the following point :
On May 28 2011 01:25 Westy wrote:
except custom games against random opponents, but the majority of the time there is a huge skill gap in these games
why doesn't bnet provide us the same match making system they use for ladder or have there be any changes recently which i have not heard of ?
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If the option would be a personal choice and not effect other people then who cares if they let people who are too anxious do it? all this crap about "man up" and stuff is just silly, this is a video game, it needs casual people just as much as it needs the hardcore masochists. I like the ladder but if someone doesn't and they introduced this feature it wouldn't bother me and shouldn't bother anyone else who doesn't have some strange affinity for controlling other people.
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there should be a way to play sc competitive outside the ladder competition and only for your mmr (wich should be public)
Just like with chess or manny other online games, the system matches you against someone of same strenght and then adjust the mmr accordingly
There is no ranking beside the elo ranking
Atm there is no way to play sc casually outside a competition beside custom games wich dont count for mmr and to be competitive in the ladder competition you have to play alot
If you dont play alot or regulary you wont be ranked properly wich might be demotivating.
combine that with the vague rules for promotion matching with opponent based on your mmr (wich you cant see...) and points and maybe that is a reason manny casual players are just not interested in the ladder at all and that its not only fear
At the same time the ladder doesnt feel as real as a full competition because the people in a certain devision dont play a full competition against eachoter (so everyone has had the same oponents) but instead it matches across all devisions wich results in people having met verry different levels of opponents
The system is suposed to adjust for that (and does) but it does not give me a feeling of beeeing in a competition with the other people in my group
to me it just feels the ladder is a bit in between, its not realy a good competition but its also not realy a nice way to play casual
Still play it because its the only way to play a somewhat serious game
I do think that custom games are matched based on a hidden mmr, maybe a mmr for custom games only or maybe the mmr of all games one played?
it doesnt seem completely random to me but didnt play enough to be able to tell
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On May 29 2011 02:45 sceroh wrote:i mostly disagree with you except for the following point : Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:25 Westy wrote:
except custom games against random opponents, but the majority of the time there is a huge skill gap in these games
why doesn't bnet provide us the same match making system they use for ladder or have there be any changes recently which i have not heard of ?
Agreed and has been suggested before.
Games like bloodline champions (even diablo) let you set limits to what level (league) player(s) could join. It shouldn't be to hard to implement something like that imo (although could get tricky when it comes to team games)
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Watch replays if you're really that scared. Or just go attack every game at a set time doing a set build. Most importantly, just try not to care about what happens on ladder.
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Well there are chatrooms so you can use those to find people relative to your skill level. To claim that there is no way to play sc2 casually is pretty sad to hear.
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There are two sublime ideas involved in the laddering system. They are:
1. You are consistently matched against players of similar skill level as yourself
2. As you improve your skill, you advance up a ladder and league tiers.
Do you want to play casually? Do you want to play this game as much as you play 8 other games? Play ladder and if you stay at the same skill, chances are you'll stay in your league and not be unduly challenged by players that can effortlessly outplay you at every step of the game. Think 1v1 cheese at lower levels is the reason so many quit? Cheese proofing your builds is a chore at the lower levels, but RTS games in general can reward those that think up / copy counter-intuitive strategies--perhaps an RTS game is not the best choice for you. That's my thoughts on people struggling with bronze-silver-gold cheese.
Yes, there is a psychological thrust in ladder to "advance" leagues. Yes, there are aspects of the community that are quick to shame a Bronze level player (with their comparatively "pro" Gold league, sometimes) for his apparent lack of skill. Gotta shake those off, just like hate-filled trolls on the internet. If you can't do this alone, refer to guides at overcoming anxiety.
This link is one guide to overcoming the fear or losing
Previously linked wikipedia article on anxiety
Google reveals a host of resources designed to help new players.
Casual gamers that haven't discovered the joys of searching on the internet for solutions to problems they can't overcome? Well ... it's the internet. That last boss I couldn't beat in the game had an easy trick I spent a month missing. It was already up on Web 1.0's Google search.
I really wanted to become the best I could at SC2. I watched Day[9] dailies in the beta (No Key sadface). I worked first on getting as much stuff that looked cool and attacking with it. I analyzed replays. I got diamond league then masters. I dropped back to diamond league, unable at the time to adjust to 3 separate problems I had encountered. Didn't matter, I had easier opponents and found custom partners through the Practice Partner Thread!! Back to masters, playing comfortable at my level (Low-Mid Masters) and enjoying the challenges. There's help for the irrational fear of laddering. I don't think any further action on Blizzard's part is needed to overcome this, aside from an easy practice league with a slower game speed, already implemented.
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Canada385 Posts
Sure it could be, but Blizzard already dumbed it down by removing losses from leagues Diamond and below so not sure what else they can do. It's up to the individual to overcome the fear and just hit "Find Match". As I've said before, if you can't get over that hump, then don't ladder, simple as that.
I suspect it's more than fear that causes people to avoid it, it's the potential of perceived "failure" when you lose a match and have to admit to yoursellf that you need to work on something or didn't accomplish a personal goal.
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Here's a solution to everyone with a vagina
Find match and quit 100 games in a row!
No more fear of losing after. Done.
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No one wants to lose, i myself experience ladder fear and i've climbed all the way up to grandmaster. You just have to tell yourself, losing doesnt mean anything, its just a game (especially if your only playing casually) and it happens to everyone.
The idea to have a separate ladder where you arent ranked is flawed. After X amount of games you would have improved but will remain playing against the same skilled people, which will ruin the game for others who get to your "ladder level" but not to your actual skill level as you proceed to stomp them. This would result in the need for the non-ranked ladder to have a ranking system.... and now your back to being afraid to lose again.
just in all honesty sometimes you just gotta push the find match button and let whatever happens happen, o and remember your on the internet, full of trolls and ridiculous people, its highly unlikely any1 is actually judging you due to your rank
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EPT
