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On May 18 2011 07:15 Brief.Starcraft wrote:
Can a map be made with this movement type? Is there anyone out there interested in making one so we can see how it works in practice?
Technically it's already been done with the SC2 BW mod. I've looked through it but I'm not quite sure how the author changed the movement for some of the units.
For sure I think we can mess around with ideas like these in the editor and test them out. Especially if people actually try out the map and give some good feedback.
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Blizzard probably won't do this since they're not into big changes since the new design team doesn't have the guts to really do anything serious.
Once things are in the game they're willing to leave it in the game. Namely Roach and other units like the Mothership that simply didn't work.
But if they are serious about eSports they need to do something like this. Make something that's far superior to any mod can do, introduce a hacked version of path finding. The current pathfinding is almost too good. Forces don't look bigger as they are bigger, just tight balls of units.
Zerg is incredibly unreadable at times. I've always had issues reading zerg to a point where I don't even use the health bars anymore because it just clutters up everything way too much.
There better be a TON of changes in HotS but I don't think there will be, oh well time will tell.
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On May 18 2011 05:58 Bippzy wrote:
Alright time to go against this.
-Rebalancing the game completely is untangible because of the pro scene. It'd be like giving the pros a new game to learn and telling them go try to win tournaments. Also, blizzard isnt super pro at balancing as it is..I don't want to see them have to try again.
-Blobs look unnatural. What? This is a game and nothing is real in it. It can never look natural. From a lore standpoint, a well trained army, a psionically linked army, or an army controlled by a hive mind would probably clump up because there are strength in numbers.
-Do NOT make the game easier. We have to accept the challenges we get. This game is about getting big balls or getting something to hold big balls in one place or destroy the big ball. Making the big ball easier just isn't tangible. This sounds like a little complaint about difficulty dressed up in a suit.
+1 to this
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On May 17 2011 10:11 Falcor wrote:
This is never going to happen imo. The game was balanced around "balls" so if they implemented this everything would have to change
This is the problem with many of the "fixes" for sc2.
Unfortunately it seems blizzard is only willing to make extremely minor changes (5 seconds to build time... 20 seconds to a research... 2 damage... etc) to sc2, while changes like this would be huge and would essentially require a TON of stuff to be completely rebalanced.
While I'd LOVE to see it implemented somehow I don't see it happening (unless it happens with one of the expansions as that's the only time I can see blizzard making big changes)
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On May 18 2011 07:43 shaman6ix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 05:58 Bippzy wrote:
Alright time to go against this.
-Rebalancing the game completely is untangible because of the pro scene. It'd be like giving the pros a new game to learn and telling them go try to win tournaments. Also, blizzard isnt super pro at balancing as it is..I don't want to see them have to try again.
-Blobs look unnatural. What? This is a game and nothing is real in it. It can never look natural. From a lore standpoint, a well trained army, a psionically linked army, or an army controlled by a hive mind would probably clump up because there are strength in numbers.
-Do NOT make the game easier. We have to accept the challenges we get. This game is about getting big balls or getting something to hold big balls in one place or destroy the big ball. Making the big ball easier just isn't tangible. This sounds like a little complaint about difficulty dressed up in a suit. +1 to this
Pros have to adjust to patches all the time.
So because it's a videogame armies have to look like shit while moving? I know it's a game, so was bw and unit movement looked way better and more natural, even if it was just a game.
So from a lore standpoint all units should be hugging each other in a perfect circle instead of getting their own space?
And making the game easier? The way it works currently makes the game easier. Managing your army in a ball is super easy, I can't imagine it being any easier. Obviously splash damage radius would be increased so I don't see how anything would be easier at all. It would be harder, and easier on the eyes.
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A change like this would reshape the form of SC2 that we now know.
A change like this will certainly not come with a patch, if it even comes at all.
And as many StarCraft 2 players keep saying: "The game is still too young."
I am a big supporter of that statement and I hate how people continue to want
changes to be made by the developers, instead of finding a way themselves.
StarCraft 2 after 3-4 years will be nothing like what we are experiancing today. Not only because
of the expansions, but because of the understanding and mechanics that shall emprove amongst all with time.
Imagine a SC2 progamer, or an average SC2 player with some general understanding of the game. Do you think that, if that player limits himself so that he must only put 12 units maximum in a control group, he will be better than a normal player?
I say - Yes. Why? Because it's the opsticle in the way of the player, that forces him
think, adapt, improve.
SCBW players HAD to split their army in groups for 12. Nobody was whining about it. They delt with it. If they could not, they were considered weak, noobish etc..
In short:
- A change like this won't come in a patch/soon.
- Don't whine about the game being worse than SCBW, when the fact is you're not even trying to make it better for/by yourself.
Everyone today is a noob. And that will be proven in time.
P.S. I am sorry for my bad English. I did my best.
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On May 18 2011 07:16 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 05:52 sushiman wrote:
You're completely misunderstanding. In BW, you could have a formation, yes. But it would only be maintained by using magic box, e.g. moving straight in one direction. Meeting attacking units would break the formation as units engage, as well as terrain. It doesn't mean the army will be separated at all times because you split the units at home.
Let's say it's working like in the OP's pics of the marine army. That army is trotting down to the Zerg base, who is going to defend with ling/bling. The formation will break and start to become chaotic as marines chase stuff and whatnot, but the rough shape will remain, with marines spread out over a big area rather than a clump. A shape that is massively detrimental to the baneling user. Show nested quote +
And AOE would still be powerful. It just wouldn't kill an army in 10 seconds flat. -_-
Well power is relative. AOE is powerful, but units like marines are also powerful, and AOE is the only thing holding them in check. If you nerf AOE (this would be an indirect nerf), then marines would be OP. So you'd have to nerf marines, making Terran UP, and so on. Changing such a fundamental aspect of the game throws absolutely everything up in the air. Show nested quote +
And seriously, this baneling vs marine argument is getting tiresome. Could people PLEASE watch some marines vs lurkers, scourge vs wraith splitting, reaver baiting and such things? Dynamic movement wouldn't destroy that 'epic' marine dodging - the damn banelings wouldn't go in a single file anymore, making dodging potentially harder if anything.
Well no it would just make banelings flat out awful but anyway. I'm not saying a game with this kind of movement wouldn't be fun or have micro or whatever. I am saying it would require a drastic rebalance and even redesign of some units/spells that it would become a different game.
I'm not sure if you've played BW, but separating your marines against a zerg is generally a bad idea unless fighting lurkers. There are many occasions where not having your units separated is adventageous. Consider zergling/baneling against marines - if the marines are in a ball, the zerglings will only be able to hit the outmost of them, while banelings basically hit them all. Now if the marines are split up, zerglings are much more powerful since more of them can hit marines than if they are in a ball. This makes the gameplay more dynamic, since the formation you move in may affect how well you combat your opponents army. Right now you basically have one way only, which limits options.
As for AOE being weaker, you would also have to consider the above, that melee units will be more powerful as well - unless you clump your units up manually, which makes AOE more powerful again. And if it would prove to be too weak for some reason, greater radius of AOE would be an easy fix, if at all necessary. As I said in one of my earlier posts, more widespread firepower means longer battles and more time to decide what your AOE should be focused on. Decision making in battle would be more important.
Honestly, I don't think changing pathing would destroy the balance in a game that's still fairly new and far from completely balanced. Patches and expansions will change the game we know plenty enough anyway, why not try to make it as good as it could be?
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Hopefully, this will take care of the dreadful deathball that everyone hates. Makes for boring and unoriginal games. This is part of the reason broodwar was incredibly fun to watch. Unit movements made for incredible micro intensive situations and THAT, folks, it what primarily makes spectating StarCraft games FUN, and ENTERTAINING to watch.
The new engine, with the concept of death ball really blew it for me.
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I'm 100% for this change. I never played broodwar, but when watching bw, the fact that battles can take place without using the entire army to fire at once makes the game so much more interesting to watch. I tested out the no deathballs mod and it feels amazing. Also, units don't feel so weak and battles are much more interesting. One thing I was thinking was that if the ai only spread out when group selected, then it could still be possible to keep units close together by simply using multiple hotkeys, this would reward apm and make the game more interesting. Certain units would need smaller radius (like lings and zealots) while other units have larger radius (like thors, collosus, ultras). I can see this really making a huge difference.
I think the biggest thing is that you can hold chokes in a defensive position much much easier giving the defender a larger advantage, also you can defend with less units making teching more interesting.
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I know this is probably not going to be the most popular opinion, but I honestly think it would be a mistake to have the units move in this way. Splash is pretty much required because units like marines and lings are just so effective in sc2. You can't weaken splash because tbh terran would never lose. I just really think this would be a gigantic buff to terran and nerf to everyone else
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I just find it absolutely hilarious that the same arguments BW players used in BETA that SC2 players scoffed at in disgust, are the exact same arguments being used by SC2 players to refuse this change.
When will these players ever learn that we understand their viewpoint more than they do themselves. The SC2 players are theory-crafting, while the BW players are talking from experience.
(Bit of a generalization, not all SC2 players obviously, <3 to the ones that understand)
On May 18 2011 10:22 Jayrod wrote:
I know this is probably not going to be the most popular opinion, but I honestly think it would be a mistake to have the units move in this way. Splash is pretty much required because units like marines and lings are just so effective in sc2. You can't weaken splash because tbh terran would never lose. I just really think this would be a gigantic buff to terran and nerf to everyone else
Zerglings would be much more powerful against marines and zealots. This would make zerg much stronger early game.
However it comes down to micro, if the Terran doesn't pay attention to his marines while moving, the zerglings can flank and utterly destroy them.
If the Terran does pay attention and reduces the surface area the marines the opposite will happen.
However with SC2, only the Terran can micro. The Zerg has to attack and pray that the Terran has bad micro.
Check out Flash vs Effort (OSL Final game 3), with Efforts flank catching Flash's army completely off-guard and killing his whole army, twice as many units as he should have.
This is the steps Effort took to do that.
NOTE: This was 9 marines and 2 medics vs 12 zerglings.
1. Hide lings and wait for Flash's army to cross the bridge
2. Send lings in between the marines and medics, cutting off the medic healing.
3. Throw 2-3 lings on each marine, making sure the medics can't heal
4. Clean up the medics once all the marines are dead
If this was SC2 the outcome would have been the same no matter what, 0 micro from Flash perfect flank by Effort and still the lings would do barely any damage. 9 marines would just clump stutter-step all the zerglings dead, maybe 3 marines would die, with medics not even one.
Split-second decision making and ling micro/aggression will be much more rewarded. Right now its like punching a brick wall. Because the marines move in a ball, there's actually no such thing as flanking.
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On May 18 2011 07:15 Brief.Starcraft wrote:
Can a map be made with this movement type? Is there anyone out there interested in making one so we can see how it works in practice?
Search "No Deathballs" on NA and I believe EU server, it's a custom map for Xel Naga and metal.
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On May 18 2011 10:52 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:15 Brief.Starcraft wrote:
Can a map be made with this movement type? Is there anyone out there interested in making one so we can see how it works in practice? Search "No Deathballs" on NA and I believe EU server, it's a custom map for Xel Naga and metal.
IIRC no deathballs just increased the radius of units. This just means less tightly packed balls, but it is still not the desired army movement we are looking for.
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something like this could conceivably be done in an expansion pack
blizzard has shown they aren't averse to making sweeping, massively game changing additions in expansion packs
compare Warcraft 3 in its state right before the expansion beta dropped to the first round of beta testing and it's like whoa, they completely revamped many, many global balance issues
- unit spellcasters were overwhelming nerfed directly and indirectly with the new units
- experience distribution amongst heroes changed singificantly
- relative strength of static defense was completely reworked across all 4 races
- racial item shops fixed up a couple glaring racial weakness (orcs couldnt heal until tier 3, for example) and completely changed the way the game was played
the reason i bring this up is because a lot of people in this thread say "oh blizzard will never do something that drastic" but their track record says otherwise
brood war didn't have any higher order global scale rebalancing like warcraft 3 did, but the units themselves created such overwhelming hard counters that it completely changed the dynamics of every single matchup. they did however do some very serious game-changing modifciations to tier 3 units a few months after brood war came out (the cost of teching to science vessels was so outrageous you could almost never get them out, and all battlecruisers/carriers/ultralisks all were significantly cheaper on supply)
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On May 18 2011 11:09 Zanno wrote:
something like this could conceivably be done in an expansion pack
blizzard has shown they aren't averse to making sweeping, massively game changing additions in expansion packs
compare Warcraft 3 in its state right before the expansion beta dropped to the first round of beta testing and it's like whoa, they completely revamped many, many global balance issues
- unit spellcasters were overwhelming nerfed directly and indirectly with the new units
- experience distribution amongst heroes changed singificantly
- relative strength of static defense was completely reworked across all 4 races
- racial item shops fixed up a couple glaring racial weakness (orcs couldnt heal until tier 3, for example) and completely changed the way the game was played
the reason i bring this up is because a lot of people in this thread say "oh blizzard will never do something that drastic" but their track record says otherwise
brood war didn't have any higher order global scale rebalancing like warcraft 3 did, but the units themselves created such overwhelming hard counters that it completely changed the dynamics of every single matchup. they did however do some very serious game-changing modifciations to tier 3 units a few months after brood war came out (the cost of teching to science vessels was so outrageous you could almost never get them out, and all battlecruisers/carriers/ultralisks all were significantly cheaper on supply)
Man I hope you are right dood. I just really don't like SC2 battles right now. I love the SC2 pro scene because it's new and it's fun to watch the macro and tactics, but the actually battles are mostly disappointing and lame... please oh please blizzard!
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I don't think this will happen to WoL even if Blizzard wants to. At best we can hope Blizzard will do something in HoTS.
This is really cool and make SC2 more exciting and more strategic, not just one storm or one EMP to own them all.
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seriously
why is there no map download link -.-
or information at all on how this was done
i must know !
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On May 18 2011 17:09 MavercK wrote:
seriously
why is there no map download link -.-
or information at all on how this was done
i must know !
Looking to add it to your SC2BW mod? :p
On topic, I have to think the introduction of more powerful splash units would help to correct this without actually needing to change the engine. If the opponent has incredible splash units(BW storm, reavers, spider mines, tanks, lurkers), then suddenly the "deathball" tactic becomes suicide, and manual splitting is forced.
These are things Blizzard can easily add in HotS or even a patch, but then the question is if they're willing to. I think the balance team is aware that they should be balancing the game based on the highest level of play, but the question is if they actually will. Investors want the game to be as accessible as possible, which means the game suddenly needs to be simplistic. Blizzard needs to either follow through with the intent to make SC2 a serious eSport at the risk of losing some income, or they need to cater to lower league players. The alternative is for the community to take the matter into their own hands, and effectively recreate the game. For the pros, by the pros if you will.
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On May 18 2011 17:09 MavercK wrote:
seriously
why is there no map download link -.-
or information at all on how this was done
i must know !
Yes!! I want to know how this was done too. I've been tweaking the values in the editor, but I don't know where to start...
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Sooo.. Wouldn't De-clumping the units mannualy be one of those awesome testaments of a players skill everybody cheered about in Broodwar and cried about when they were missing in SC2?
I remember seeing tons and tons of threads during the beta about missing Muta stacking,being able to automine and selecting multiple buildings etc etc
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EPT
