Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You've got to be kidding me. "Known better"? It's his job to report news stories for Gamespot. What kind of a fucking statement is "he shouldn't have done his job"?
He shouldn't have done his fucking job then if its going to cause damage to the industry. He could have done his job far fucking better. MAINSTREAM JOURNALISM /= ESPORTS JOURNALISM. This is the point. Esports is NOT READY for mainstream type journalism at all.
you think? pretty smart guy... knows what and what not esports is ready for... please tell us more and enlighten us with your completely random and only self-justified wisdom...
I just can't get over how, in these discussions, several parties that are privy to information that may be of considerable worth to the entities involved are not held under NDA's, holding each party legally and financially responsible for the disclosure of this information, as well as efforts made to severely limit the amount of people involved in each discussion.
And instead of learning from these experiences and adding necessary security measures to protect the information, they go on a show, spew a bunch of shit, and blame the journalist for reporting the news.
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You've got to be kidding me. "Known better"? It's his job to report news stories for Gamespot. What kind of a fucking statement is "he shouldn't have done his job"?
He shouldn't have done his fucking job then if its going to cause damage to the industry. He could have done his job far fucking better. MAINSTREAM JOURNALISM /= ESPORTS JOURNALISM. This is the point. Esports is NOT READY for mainstream type journalism at all.
It's not preventable. No matter what, someone will report on it. It's too great an opportunity. You are arguing in favor of journalists not reporting on something, not just slasher. It's going to happen no matter what, so organizations need to handle it better.
This is true but Slasher was apparently the only reporter (as far as I'm aware, please don't hold me to it) with the information and EG contacted his asking for an embargo until a certain date. Slasher could have asked for an exclusive interview or something in return but decided to ignore it, thus causing harm that could have been avoided. It's fortunate that this situation didn't occur to another weaker team but you are correct that reporters will place their own self-interest over the good of the industry. EG is responsible for the leak but slasher should have been more understanding of the situation. Gamespot probably wouldn't care if he revealed early or not, especially if slasher was able to get an exclusive out of it.
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You've got to be kidding me. "Known better"? It's his job to report news stories for Gamespot. What kind of a fucking statement is "he shouldn't have done his job"?
He shouldn't have done his fucking job then if its going to cause damage to the industry. He could have done his job far fucking better. MAINSTREAM JOURNALISM /= ESPORTS JOURNALISM. This is the point. Esports is NOT READY for mainstream type journalism at all.
Stop trying to blame journalism, 100% of the blame lies with EG. It is up to EG to fix their leak, and not Slasher and others stop being journalist/reporters.
I think we are having a battle of anon sources within the LoL community. Slasher goes on the record saying EG will be picking up CLG.Eu. However now we have another anon source saying Steel Series will pick them up. Battle of the anons, cut throat esports journalism at its finest.
On January 17 2013 04:42 dr.fahrenheit wrote: [quote]
If there is a market, interest, demand, there will always be people who will be more than happy to satisfy it (for money)... people grave for sensation, big announcments etc.; that seems to be what people want and (often times shitty) journalists will provide... I'm just saying it seems to me some guys are complaining that journalists serve a target group on the market which they would prefer have exclusively for their own.... idk...
the larger point has been that slasher is riding a thin line between respected journalist and pandering to that audience that just wants to know whatever is happening a day early at the expense of quality and interesting stories. it's bad for the community for him to be providing the cheaper kind of information and it's going to cost him his ability to work as a quality journalist.
I don't really get it. What do you guys expect from Slasher? All of a sudden he's a bad reporter doing cheap tricks just because what he's reporting on is hurting you guys?
Reporter gets his hands on information, reporter reports this information. Doesn't seem like a strange move to me at all. The fact that it's sensitive information doesn't seem like a good enough reason for him to keep things quiet when he is in fact paid to report anything that gathers him viewers.
If your business model relies on information being tight that cannot be kept tight then your business model seems kind of screwed.
If information makes its way to a reporter, you cannot expect the reporter to keep quiet. If you lose business because of that then I feel like the burden's on you to fix things and not simply demand that the reporter only continues reporting on issues that are to your liking.
There is a different impact that reporting in a major, non-sponsorship based industry has than one that works within the confines of sponsorships. Reporters and journalists working in tech industries or major sports leak things all the time but the company that has its information leaked doesn't care because it is building hype for their team or their product. In esports, the teams are the ones building the hype for their sponsors so they can get paid as advertising machines rather than for the sake of being a sports team. By leaking information that was suppose to be hyped up by the team, you are in effect damaging the relationship between the sponsors and teams because you dampen the effect the team will have on generating page views for sponsors. Slasher did exactly this and EG suffered because of it. He should know better than that.
Reporters don't leak. Reporters report.
Who leaked the information to Slasher ? That is who you should be crying out against. Either that, or at EG for leading their sponsors to believe that the information was secret, when it clearly was not.
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You have to realize you are operating on a definition of journalism that isn't really accepted anywhere.
What does it matter what definition I am using, its irrelevant to the argument. Slasher "reported" the information and caused EG to lose sponsorship revenue. This type of "reporting" is going to kill esports.
Nah. However, eSports being run by people who have no concept of how the real world works, let alone what journalism is might.
Ok then. Propose to me a better solution for esports? How in fuck hell are teams suppose to get revenue other than through sponsorship. Tell me? Subscriptions? People get fickle about 5 dollar PPV for 100s of hours of content so that won't work. T-shirt sales? Maybe a bake sale. Tell me please.
You seem to ignore the fact that EG and all other teams do not depend solely on making announcements to get sponsorship exposure; performing well in tournaments springs to mind. Actually, this is the primary driver for a team, wouldn't you say?
Wouldn't you also say, that teams depend on journalism to cover their accomplishments when they do well?
You are acting like the choice for EG is to either not get their massive player signing announcement leaked, or opening up a bake sale, which is ridiculous.
On January 17 2013 06:16 CEPEHDREI wrote: just sad to see how djwheat has changed. EGs puppet with his inside the eg shows and throwing friends like slasher under the bus.
disgusting
I sort of disagree with this. At least he tried a little by "playing devil's advocate"
On January 17 2013 04:53 IdrA wrote: [quote] the larger point has been that slasher is riding a thin line between respected journalist and pandering to that audience that just wants to know whatever is happening a day early at the expense of quality and interesting stories. it's bad for the community for him to be providing the cheaper kind of information and it's going to cost him his ability to work as a quality journalist.
I don't really get it. What do you guys expect from Slasher? All of a sudden he's a bad reporter doing cheap tricks just because what he's reporting on is hurting you guys?
Reporter gets his hands on information, reporter reports this information. Doesn't seem like a strange move to me at all. The fact that it's sensitive information doesn't seem like a good enough reason for him to keep things quiet when he is in fact paid to report anything that gathers him viewers.
If your business model relies on information being tight that cannot be kept tight then your business model seems kind of screwed.
If information makes its way to a reporter, you cannot expect the reporter to keep quiet. If you lose business because of that then I feel like the burden's on you to fix things and not simply demand that the reporter only continues reporting on issues that are to your liking.
There is a different impact that reporting in a major, non-sponsorship based industry has than one that works within the confines of sponsorships. Reporters and journalists working in tech industries or major sports leak things all the time but the company that has its information leaked doesn't care because it is building hype for their team or their product. In esports, the teams are the ones building the hype for their sponsors so they can get paid as advertising machines rather than for the sake of being a sports team. By leaking information that was suppose to be hyped up by the team, you are in effect damaging the relationship between the sponsors and teams because you dampen the effect the team will have on generating page views for sponsors. Slasher did exactly this and EG suffered because of it. He should know better than that.
Reporters don't leak. Reporters report.
Who leaked the information to Slasher ? That is who you should be crying out against. Either that, or at EG for leading their sponsors to believe that the information was secret, when it clearly was not.
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You have to realize you are operating on a definition of journalism that isn't really accepted anywhere.
What does it matter what definition I am using, its irrelevant to the argument. Slasher "reported" the information and caused EG to lose sponsorship revenue. This type of "reporting" is going to kill esports.
Nah. However, eSports being run by people who have no concept of how the real world works, let alone what journalism is might.
Ok then. Propose to me a better solution for esports? How in fuck hell are teams suppose to get revenue other than through sponsorship. Tell me? Subscriptions? People get fickle about 5 dollar PPV for 100s of hours of content so that won't work. T-shirt sales? Maybe a bake sale. Tell me please.
You seem to ignore the fact that EG and all other teams do not depend solely on making announcements to get sponsorship exposure; performing well in tournaments springs to mind. Actually, this is the primary driver for a team, wouldn't you say?
Wouldn't you also say, that teams depend on journalism to cover their accomplishments when they do well?
You are acting like the choice for EG is to either not get their massive player signing announcement leaked, or opening up a bake sale, which is ridiculous.
You make a fair point regarding results, I overlooked that. However, I still don't think that's an excuse for slasher to reveal information that would harm a team's revenue stream, especially given how volatile working in esports can be.
I'm not saying no journalism in esports. That'd be stupid. I'm saying that the type of reporting in esports should be more carefully done so as not to cause damage to its growth.
On January 17 2013 03:59 IdrA wrote: whats the foundation for "if esports cant handle journalism it doesnt deserve to exist" everyone just keeps repeating it because it sounds good. there's no actual reason to believe that. what if the scene were a lot more precarious than it is and losing viewership that comes with losing exclusivity on an announcement actually cost us a sponsor? or what about the lesser teams totalbiscuit referenced who are wholly dependent on every single view any announcement they have gets? the fact that its a growing industry with unstable money flow that's dependent on certain specific things that the media can influence does not delegitimize it as an industry.
Because businesses in the real world survive and die all the time. Survival of the fittest. Esports is nothing so special, that it needs to have its own rules and be protected inside a bubble. If it's so fragile that it can't survive slasher leaks, well then that's just reality and it deserves to die just like any other business in the real world. Sure you can do things to protect the industry, but it shouldn't be done at all costs such as trying to put a muzzle on slasher and when he can report things.
You say people just keep spouting that because it sounds good? Well, Alex, you and EG keep spouting that slasher leaks are killing esports. That also sounds good and causes headlines right? Unless I see esports fold up shop next month, or even next year, I will take yours and Alex's opinion as a gross exaggeration of the "damage" you perceive slasher has caused to esports.
This is why foreigners keep losing in everything. The teams are a marketing agency first and a competition team second. Alex loves to shout to the rooftops that no sponsor has ever come to him complaining about poor results. They only care about how much exposure you give them.
There's a fundamental problem with esports when results aren't valued more because sports are all about results. Esports should not be reduced to how many eyeballs see an ad or website over actual player results. Sadly, that's how it is in the west and if esports someday dies because of that model, then they deserve it because they acted in direct contrast to what it means to be a sport in the first place.
On January 17 2013 06:16 CEPEHDREI wrote: just sad to see how djwheat has changed. EGs puppet with his inside the eg shows and throwing friends like slasher under the bus.
disgusting
I sort of disagree with this. At least he tried a little by "playing devil's advocate"
Wheat kept trying to keep Slasher from "digging a bigger hole" so to speak but kept getting cut off by Slasher. Honestly I think Wheat handled it as well as he could have given how volatile of a situation it was. The problem is both sides said alot but didnt always say the right things to articulate their part. Honestly the worst thing was Slasher saying he didnt care about the exclusive interview. That IMO was the dumbest thing said. If youre trying to act as a legitimate source of information and give good articles why in fucking hell would you ever pass up an exclusive interview? I'm not a huge fan of either side by anymeans but to me it seemed like Garfield tried to play ball abet poorly and Slasher gave him a big fuck you.
On January 17 2013 03:59 IdrA wrote: whats the foundation for "if esports cant handle journalism it doesnt deserve to exist" everyone just keeps repeating it because it sounds good. there's no actual reason to believe that. what if the scene were a lot more precarious than it is and losing viewership that comes with losing exclusivity on an announcement actually cost us a sponsor? or what about the lesser teams totalbiscuit referenced who are wholly dependent on every single view any announcement they have gets? the fact that its a growing industry with unstable money flow that's dependent on certain specific things that the media can influence does not delegitimize it as an industry.
Let's put it this way, what kind of community do we want? OR rather, what obligations and rights do we want our community to have.
The above things you just stated are great things and totally true, There is a downside to what Slasher is doing, as there is to practically everything. However your example can also be applied to the real world. Journalism in general costs our society allot of money, allot of business related could go much faster and smoother if the journalistic world just kept their mouth shut, but what society would that give us, just look at China.
Journalism has always operated under certain costs but most people, in the western world at least, feel that that cost is justified cause we believe in things like free speech and such. I for one would like to believe that we actually can have free journalism and that our community is strong enough to give journalists like slasher the ability to exercise this right and that their free speech actually benefits this community as a whole and that the temporary setbacks which may happen actually are worth it.
the cost is justified because we need freedom of information to prevent wrongdoing or to let the public know when it's happening. but how many articles do you see about organizations not paying players on time, or at all? or about all the shady shit going on in korea? or any of the other shit that freedom of the press would actually be useful for.
no, instead you have people posting headlines that will be public information within a matter of days a bit early so they can siphon off a portion of the viewership to justify their own jobs. spend that time reporting on things that need to be reported on, or at least spend it productively on the existing headlines instead of dragging others down with your lazyness.
If there is a market, interest, demand, there will always be people who will be more than happy to satisfy it (for money)... people grave for sensation, big announcments etc.; that seems to be what people want and (often times shitty) journalists will provide... I'm just saying it seems to me some guys are complaining that journalists serve a target group on the market which they would prefer have exclusively for their own.... idk...
the larger point has been that slasher is riding a thin line between respected journalist and pandering to that audience that just wants to know whatever is happening a day early at the expense of quality and interesting stories. it's bad for the community for him to be providing the cheaper kind of information and it's going to cost him his ability to work as a quality journalist.
I don't really get it. What do you guys expect from Slasher? All of a sudden he's a bad reporter doing cheap tricks just because what he's reporting on is hurting you guys?
Reporter gets his hands on information, reporter reports this information. Doesn't seem like a strange move to me at all. The fact that it's sensitive information doesn't seem like a good enough reason for him to keep things quiet when he is in fact paid to report anything that gathers him viewers.
If your business model relies on information being tight that cannot be kept tight then your business model seems kind of screwed.
If information makes its way to a reporter, you cannot expect the reporter to keep quiet. If you lose business because of that then I feel like the burden's on you to fix things and not simply demand that the reporter only continues reporting on issues that are to your liking.
There is a different impact that reporting in a major, non-sponsorship based industry has than one that works within the confines of sponsorships. Reporters and journalists working in tech industries or major sports leak things all the time but the company that has its information leaked doesn't care because it is building hype for their team or their product. In esports, the teams are the ones building the hype for their sponsors so they can get paid as advertising machines rather than for the sake of being a sports team. By leaking information that was suppose to be hyped up by the team, you are in effect damaging the relationship between the sponsors and teams because you dampen the effect the team will have on generating page views for sponsors. Slasher did exactly this and EG suffered because of it. He should know better than that.
Reporters don't leak. Reporters report.
Who leaked the information to Slasher ? That is who you should be crying out against. Either that, or at EG for leading their sponsors to believe that the information was secret, when it clearly was not.
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You are 100% wrong, Slasher didnt leak it. EG leaked it. It would have became common knowledge soon enough.
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You've got to be kidding me. "Known better"? It's his job to report news stories for Gamespot. What kind of a fucking statement is "he shouldn't have done his job"?
He shouldn't have done his fucking job then if its going to cause damage to the industry. He could have done his job far fucking better. MAINSTREAM JOURNALISM /= ESPORTS JOURNALISM. This is the point. Esports is NOT READY for mainstream type journalism at all.
I suppose you will inform us when you feel that esports will be able to handle mainstream journalism? And btw, who decides that? You? Alex? Victor? Dustin Browder?
On January 17 2013 03:59 IdrA wrote: whats the foundation for "if esports cant handle journalism it doesnt deserve to exist" everyone just keeps repeating it because it sounds good. there's no actual reason to believe that. what if the scene were a lot more precarious than it is and losing viewership that comes with losing exclusivity on an announcement actually cost us a sponsor? or what about the lesser teams totalbiscuit referenced who are wholly dependent on every single view any announcement they have gets? the fact that its a growing industry with unstable money flow that's dependent on certain specific things that the media can influence does not delegitimize it as an industry.
Let's put it this way, what kind of community do we want? OR rather, what obligations and rights do we want our community to have.
The above things you just stated are great things and totally true, There is a downside to what Slasher is doing, as there is to practically everything. However your example can also be applied to the real world. Journalism in general costs our society allot of money, allot of business related could go much faster and smoother if the journalistic world just kept their mouth shut, but what society would that give us, just look at China.
Journalism has always operated under certain costs but most people, in the western world at least, feel that that cost is justified cause we believe in things like free speech and such. I for one would like to believe that we actually can have free journalism and that our community is strong enough to give journalists like slasher the ability to exercise this right and that their free speech actually benefits this community as a whole and that the temporary setbacks which may happen actually are worth it.
the cost is justified because we need freedom of information to prevent wrongdoing or to let the public know when it's happening. but how many articles do you see about organizations not paying players on time, or at all? or about all the shady shit going on in korea? or any of the other shit that freedom of the press would actually be useful for.
no, instead you have people posting headlines that will be public information within a matter of days a bit early so they can siphon off a portion of the viewership to justify their own jobs. spend that time reporting on things that need to be reported on, or at least spend it productively on the existing headlines instead of dragging others down with your lazyness.
If there is a market, interest, demand, there will always be people who will be more than happy to satisfy it (for money)... people grave for sensation, big announcments etc.; that seems to be what people want and (often times shitty) journalists will provide... I'm just saying it seems to me some guys are complaining that journalists serve a target group on the market which they would prefer have exclusively for their own.... idk...
the larger point has been that slasher is riding a thin line between respected journalist and pandering to that audience that just wants to know whatever is happening a day early at the expense of quality and interesting stories. it's bad for the community for him to be providing the cheaper kind of information and it's going to cost him his ability to work as a quality journalist.
I don't really get it. What do you guys expect from Slasher? All of a sudden he's a bad reporter doing cheap tricks just because what he's reporting on is hurting you guys?
Reporter gets his hands on information, reporter reports this information. Doesn't seem like a strange move to me at all. The fact that it's sensitive information doesn't seem like a good enough reason for him to keep things quiet when he is in fact paid to report anything that gathers him viewers.
If your business model relies on information being tight that cannot be kept tight then your business model seems kind of screwed.
If information makes its way to a reporter, you cannot expect the reporter to keep quiet. If you lose business because of that then I feel like the burden's on you to fix things and not simply demand that the reporter only continues reporting on issues that are to your liking.
There is a different impact that reporting in a major, non-sponsorship based industry has than one that works within the confines of sponsorships. Reporters and journalists working in tech industries or major sports leak things all the time but the company that has its information leaked doesn't care because it is building hype for their team or their product. In esports, the teams are the ones building the hype for their sponsors so they can get paid as advertising machines rather than for the sake of being a sports team. By leaking information that was suppose to be hyped up by the team, you are in effect damaging the relationship between the sponsors and teams because you dampen the effect the team will have on generating page views for sponsors. Slasher did exactly this and EG suffered because of it. He should know better than that.
Reporters don't leak. Reporters report.
Who leaked the information to Slasher ? That is who you should be crying out against. Either that, or at EG for leading their sponsors to believe that the information was secret, when it clearly was not.
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You are 100% wrong, Slasher didnt leak it. EG leaked it. It would have became common knowledge soon enough.
Slasher was the one who showed it to the public. I'd say its pointless to speculate whether or not it would have been common knowledge prior to EG's announcement because we dont know who else knew.
two things impressed me (in a bad way) during this discussion - incontrol saying that eSports is not real sport, so journalists should follow some other rules (rules that allow EG to make more money) - that teams rely on announcements to generate profit
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You've got to be kidding me. "Known better"? It's his job to report news stories for Gamespot. What kind of a fucking statement is "he shouldn't have done his job"?
He shouldn't have done his fucking job then if its going to cause damage to the industry. He could have done his job far fucking better. MAINSTREAM JOURNALISM /= ESPORTS JOURNALISM. This is the point. Esports is NOT READY for mainstream type journalism at all.
I suppose you will inform us when you feel that esports will be able to handle mainstream journalism? And btw, who decides that? You? Alex? Victor? Dustin Browder?
I'd say when we get to the point where the industry is much more stable. Again this is just my opinion, take it or leave it, but in esport's current state, reporting should be done more carefully.
On January 17 2013 06:35 mdb wrote: two things impressed me (in a bad way) during this discussion - incontrol saying that eSports is not real sport, so journalists should follow some other rules (rules that allow EG to make more money) - that teams rely on announcements to generate profit
In some sense incontrol is correct. eSports isn't like traditional sports, which rely on huge television contracts in order to stay afloat. Ultimately I think he and everyone else would like to see us move away from the current model of sponsorships and to a more stable environment.
On January 17 2013 06:35 mdb wrote: two things impressed me (in a bad way) during this discussion - incontrol saying that eSports is not real sport, so journalists should follow some other rules (rules that allow EG to make more money) - that teams rely on announcements to generate profit
In some sense incontrol is correct. eSports isn't like traditional sports, which rely on huge television contracts in order to stay afloat. Ultimately I think he and everyone else would like to see us move away from the current model of sponsorships and to a more stable environment.
BW?
maybe if you are talking about SC2, this is correct, but esports can be just like real sport and broodwar in korea proved it. the problem is somewhere else.
Doesn't matter. Slasher was the one who dropped the news. He should have known better. EG is partially at fault for letting the information get through the cracks to slasher but slasher shouldn't have leaked it to the community.
You've got to be kidding me. "Known better"? It's his job to report news stories for Gamespot. What kind of a fucking statement is "he shouldn't have done his job"?
He shouldn't have done his fucking job then if its going to cause damage to the industry. He could have done his job far fucking better. MAINSTREAM JOURNALISM /= ESPORTS JOURNALISM. This is the point. Esports is NOT READY for mainstream type journalism at all.
I suppose you will inform us when you feel that esports will be able to handle mainstream journalism? And btw, who decides that? You? Alex? Victor? Dustin Browder?
I'd say when we get to the point where the industry is much more stable. Again this is just my opinion, take it or leave it, but in esport's current state, reporting should be done more carefully.
I don't think you get it. The information was already out there, slasher didn't leak it - he just published it. If it wasn't Slasher publishing it, it would have been someone else and then EG would blame that person. HuskySC, Rakaka, some random TL poster? Who knows? Of course everyone wants to help eSports but Alex Garfield can't expect everyone in eSports to be a good person. He's just being naive and stupid there.
It's just like me leaving $100 in the open in a park and saying yep I'll come back for it in two weeks and hoping no one in the whole park will take it. And it's not the person who takes it fault but my own.
On January 17 2013 06:35 mdb wrote: two things impressed me (in a bad way) during this discussion - incontrol saying that eSports is not real sport, so journalists should follow some other rules (rules that allow EG to make more money) - that teams rely on announcements to generate profit
Totaly agree, no logic there what so ever, kinda depressing. They would have to make a hell of alot announcements then ^^
EPT
