[Show] Inside The Game - Official Thread - Page 351

On October 25 2012 11:34 krisss wrote:


If you decide the quality of someones arguments by their achievments, this show would have died ages ago.

On October 25 2012 12:55 RoyMadman wrote:
Destinys arguements were pretty stupid to be honest and whenever a discussion got started he would just start screaming or mocking whomever was trying to make a legitimate point.

I agree eventually it was just a shouting match with painuser being awesome, but I would have hoped that InControl would have remembered the SotG with avilo and said no way to Destiny on the stream. That was just asking for drama.

Destiny post had a lot of true points but it was just a whine points. It didnt really offer any solutions nor did make it sound like there was one. It made SC2 sound like a lost cause and I think that is definatley not the case.

Anyway SC2 will still be around for a while. It probably wont be the biggest or the best viewed e sport but not everyone watches tennis and it has been around forever too. Not all the nerd will watch SC2 but there are plenty of nerds in the world.

On October 25 2012 11:57 Dubsy wrote:


Yeah its so hard to watch... it's ridiculous.

And Wheat yelling at Destiny is so uncool. He's saying streams are getting stronger, despite the fact SC2 streams are CLEARLY getting weaker, but because everyone is watching Dota2 and LoL it's great news for SC. What a clown.

E: not to say Destiny is a saint. But he was making some legit points and it was just team EG teaming up on him and just yelling stupid shit.

On October 25 2012 14:27 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:
Is it me, or do you not see this sort of doom and gloom from any of the pro players, teams, or casters? One guy on the fringe of the pro scene, but has a loyal following, makes a post about how the end is near, and half the community explodes.

On October 25 2012 14:33 Serpico wrote:

Why would they show it? It's their jobs to promote the scene not scare people about it.

On October 25 2012 13:39 LuckoftheIrish wrote:


That's not what he said at all. It's an easy point to misunderstand, and I can see why you (and Destiny) didn't get it, but that's not what he said.

Generally, stream viewership is up. The difference is that there are many, many more options to choose from. Destiny brought up Idra's stream as an example; he used to regularly hit 10,000+ and now struggles for 5,000. That's not because viewership has gone down; it's because in the last 18 months a whole bunch of other people have started streaming as well. When Greg was pushing 20,000 people, a lot of really big names, including Huk, Stephano and possibly Grubby weren't streaming. That's to say nothing of the occasional Korean pro who'll stream a few hours every month; HerO, DRG and others. Plus, there weren't the weekly and daily events, and the long season tournaments; there's just about always two of IPL, NASL and EGMCSL running. Plus there are shows; the big ones are the ITGs and Day9 Dailies, but there's also ChanMan, the Executives, the mappers show and more. And then there are the other games. Actually, in Dota 2 you can sorta see the effect Wheat is talking about as well. It used to be that the only regular Dota 2 streamer was Demon. Now, Fear, Jeyo, Merlini, Maelk and Dendi stream occasionally to regularly, plus Purge, Ayesee and Draskyll, plus tournament matches. You've even got Catz playing Dota 2 with drewbie and PainUser.

So what happens is that viewership, while generally rising, becomes more diffuse. The variety and number of streams has exploded. If I wanted to watch high-level Zerg play, my only choice in 2010-early 2011 was Idra, but now there's a lot of others to choose from. We've gone from having one stream with 10,000 viewers to ten with 1,0000. It sucks for that one guy, but everyone else is doing better. Even within SC2, numbers as a whole are going up, but spread across a wider base.

On October 25 2012 15:09 oogieogie wrote:

See I would say this is completely wrong. I will take SC2 for a example since it seems to probably best fit the point. When Idra used to stream he did get 10k+ viewers usually, but it was more rare while now he does struggle for 5k. The thing is that even if you can watch some masters or GM zerg instead most people will most likely still be going for Idra since big name/team/rage etc. The streams for SC2 have probably been going downhill because I think even the last time Stephano streamed he didn't get 10k+ viewers when he usually did awhile ago. Viewers in general for SC2 seem to be steadily going down, and you can even notice it in destiny streams when he gets like 2.5k viewers max instead of like 4k+. While there is more people it just doesn't equal out like Idra getting 10k back then vs Idra now getting 5k + violet getting 2k etc. The big name streamers also arn't streaming all the time so sometimes even when idra was getting no competition today I think he got like 5.6k viewers max, but i could be wrong. This could just be because we are going to be getting into HOTS so viewership might come back up, but otherwise I wouldn't say streaming now is as popular as awhile ago for SC2.

kinda repeated myself but meh

On October 25 2012 12:50 emythrel wrote:


well since idra was on a pro team in korea for BW and Incontrol was a USA champ in BW they both have some achievements on which to stake their claim to their arguments being more valid. djWheat also has a loooong history in gaming.

Destiny is basically a punk who got famous not because he could play but because of his personality. He is the SC2 equivalent of a Kardashian, famous for being famous. He has no discernible skill or talent that should warrant his opinion mattering any more than mine, if he wasn't so outrageous he would be a nobody. There are hundreds if not thousands of players out there better than him but who don't have the same personality and say the vulgar shit he does and they are nobodies. Destiny basically embodies what I hate about modern celebrities, when I was growing up most famous people were famous for a reason. They were excellent at one thing or another, whether it was sport, music, acting, presenting, comedy, they earned their fame by working their asses off their entire life. These days the majority of celebrities got there by doing jack shit, being part of a reality TV show or generally being an idiot, apparently that is something to aspire to these days.

Idra and Incontrol were both "pros" for years before SC2 and will be around in the scene long after Destiny is gone and forgotten. Just because neither have done anything major in SC2 lately, doesn't mean they haven't had achievements. Destiny has NEVER been a top player, both Inc and Idra have, they were around for the BW days when esports were only relevant in Korea and thus know how it feels to be truly out in the cold. Destiny was a nobody until SC2, in terms of notable players he still is and always will be, he is famous because he is funny and at times vulgar. That is why he thinks the sky is falling, because he has no idea how things used to be, if he did he wouldn't say that only getting 60k viewers means SC2 is dying, a USA event back in BW would have been lucky to get 600 people watching and if they broke 5k viewers they would have all been creaming in their panties.

BW was played by very few people, there were like 2 major tourneys per year in the USA and no such thing as a true professional outside of Korea. To even suggest that SC2 is dying or will die when it is literally a million times larger outside of Korea than BW ever was is simply idiotic. Its even starting to get good traction in Korea, GSL finals used to have half the 600 seat theatre empty, now they are selling out large auditoriums. The majority of viewers of any sport are not players, the majority of football fans (soccer) don't play organised football, most tennis viewers have never played an official tennis match in their lives, most BW viewers had barely touched the game. That is the nature of a professional sport.

Getting casuals to play Sc2 isn't going to increase viewer ship numbers significantly unless the playerbase explodes. LoL has over 15 million players, so less than 10% watched their world championship finals. Sc2 has (according to sc2ranks) a little over 500k active 1v1 players and gets 100k viewers for major championship finals, thats 20%. So as a percentage of players to viewers, Sc2 does way better. If sc2 had 15 million players, we might get 2.5-3 million viewers but we might also still only get 100k viewers..... there is no way to know. Certainly if players were only playing custom games that have little to no baring on SC2 1v1 then they probably wouldn't watch it very much.

Sc2 is going no where, its here to stay. blizzard are not and have never been the answer to fixing the game. BW was basically balanced by maps, usually kespa maps. Kespa is what made BW successful in Korea, not the bnet ui or shared replays or clan support, but an organisation that had their own best interests at heart. Kespa needed BW to be balanced and so found ways to make it so, kespa made BW. Sc2 while in much better shape in terms of blizzard giving a shit about esports, doesn't need them to fix their ui etc to make it successful. It would help immensely, we all know that, but the success as an esport lies firmly in the hands of organisations like eSF and Kespa,

They can make tweaks to unit movement within their official maps if it is deemed needed, they can change balance too, virtually anything that blizzard can do to improve the actual gameplay can be done via the galaxy editor. So if it gets to a point where the organisations think they need to act, they can and should. We shouldn't rely on Blizzard, we can hope they fix all the issues we have but ultimately, the in game ui for the arcade isnt going to hinder SC2 as an esport half as much as if the game itself sucks. That is where blizzard should be focused, making the actual game the best it can be.

edit:

ofc Destiny is pissed stream numbers are dropping for individual streamers, that is how he makes his money cause no one will pay him to play SC2. If he doesn't get stream viewers, he will have to get a proper job again. I feel his pain, i really do, he is funny and a great personality but sucks at the game. His only avenue to make money is stream revenue, he isn't going to win a major tourney, he isn't going to find a team to pay him (mainly due to his frequent outbursts) and so basically if everyone stops watching him and starts watching LoL, he is screwed... unless he takes Idra's advice, which I would personally reccommend he does. Who knows, with 15 million people playing LoL, he could have an even larger fanbase of people who like hearing obscenities and racial slurs. He might even be good enough at the game to make money actually from playing it too.

On October 25 2012 15:09 oogieogie wrote:

See I would say this is completely wrong. I will take SC2 for a example since it seems to probably best fit the point. When Idra used to stream he did get 10k+ viewers usually, but it was more rare while now he does struggle for 5k. The thing is that even if you can watch some masters or GM zerg instead most people will most likely still be going for Idra since big name/team/rage etc. The streams for SC2 have probably been going downhill because I think even the last time Stephano streamed he didn't get 10k+ viewers when he usually did awhile ago. Viewers in general for SC2 seem to be steadily going down, and you can even notice it in destiny streams when he gets like 2.5k viewers max instead of like 4k+. While there is more people it just doesn't equal out like Idra getting 10k back then vs Idra now getting 5k + violet getting 2k etc. The big name streamers also arn't streaming all the time so sometimes even when idra was getting no competition today I think he got like 5.6k viewers max, but i could be wrong. This could just be because we are going to be getting into HOTS so viewership might come back up, but otherwise I wouldn't say streaming now is as popular as awhile ago for SC2.

kinda repeated myself but meh

On October 25 2012 15:24 Pwnographics wrote:


LoL had 1 million stream and 8 million TV...

On October 25 2012 15:21 VanGarde wrote:


The rational conclusion to watching personal stream views going down would be to take that for what it is, personal stream views are going down. It is a stretch to assume that the reason for that is that people are not enjoying the game. It is even more of a stretch when you realize that overall tournament views are stable or going up. So what does it mean then? Partly the explosion in streaming, which is what wheat responded. Because more people are streaming EVERYTHING, there are less views to go around. Maybe people used to watch IdrA for 5 hours in a row back when there was less streaming, now the same person might only watch a game, then watch another game, then watch a speedrun etc etc. But probably just as big a part is that streaming is just not that interesting when we have so many tournaments running, and there are so many people streaming.

I used to watch a lot of streams but to be honest it gets really boring to watch streams in the long run because it is just the game I am already playing. Back when the game was new it was all so exciting that I could just watch streams forever but now I rather just watch a tournament where I get much more out of the experience, and I watch streams when I want to learn builds and play styles to use in my own play. Watching the same guy play 1v1 with music on is not really that interesting. Keep in mind some streams go in the opposite direction. DeMusliM has grown his stream immensely. Why is that? Probably because he is adding more to his stream, he comments everything he does while he plays, he gives advice and goes back to review replays and explain why he won or lost.