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On October 17 2012 12:18 bakarin wrote:
They aren't worthy of calling "professionals" if they still show those kinds of behavior
in before hurr durr it was juz a joke xd grow up xdddd you want them to be boring in suit and ties hurrr xddddddddddd
Boy, you saw that strawman and you just beat the shit out of him. (Also, if you're going to be all 'inb4' on something, maybe do it before two hundred pages of debate on that specific topic.)
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On October 17 2012 11:45 Bart wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 10:14 Tachion wrote:On October 17 2012 09:51 Bart wrote:On October 17 2012 09:32 blade55555 wrote:
Hearing about the SRS reddit community and in general the dipshits who contact sponsors as a first thing when something goes wrong just pisses me off.
Really hope people can stop contacting sponsors over every stupid little thing and talk to team managers first before doing that drastic step. Teams still not learning to keep their members in check and not do stupid/illegal stuff just pisses me off. Hire a PR for goodness sake. I for one do not contact sponsors because I have not been overly offended by racist/political/underaged rape jokes but if I do you can bet I will. So you didn't take anything away from the show? Did you even listen or are you just making mindless comments in random threads? Good show overall, but like the above poster shows I don't think the sponsors talk is really going to reach the people it needs to. I was addressing the comment I quoted directly as I am doing so now. Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 10:16 IdrA wrote:On October 17 2012 09:51 Bart wrote:On October 17 2012 09:32 blade55555 wrote:
Hearing about the SRS reddit community and in general the dipshits who contact sponsors as a first thing when something goes wrong just pisses me off.
Really hope people can stop contacting sponsors over every stupid little thing and talk to team managers first before doing that drastic step. Teams still not learning to keep their members in check and not do stupid/illegal stuff just pisses me off. Hire a PR for goodness sake. I for one do not contact sponsors because I have not been overly offended by racist/political/underaged rape jokes but if I do you can bet I will. what do you think the month suspension was? its teaching stephano to not do things like that you think the current situation is players behaving completely unrestricted? you're pretty dumb if you do. think about how you talk with your friends and compare it with how we act in public. even compare how we act in different situations, on stream, in videos, on shows, at tournaments. if you want to be a part of establishing where those lines are drawn you should contact the teams, and if enough people agree with you then players will be forced to toe those lines. going to sponsors is just potentially sabotaging the industry you're trying to better. Obviously our expectations of the appropriate punishment differs greatly. I think we need to admit that fans going to sponsors have become a norm what with 3-4 controversial instances (maybe more?) of this sort occuring already. Managers, players, teams and industry celebrities have all come out to voice their unhappiness about this and yet still it (going to sponsors first) happens when players make controversial "mistakes". Shouldn't teams and players know how to "toe the line" by now? ie if you're on air, think before you hit "enter". I know easier said than done right. In conclusion, instead of trying to make hundreds of thousands of fans stop doing something isn't it easier to make the hundreds of players stop and think before doing/saying something especially if that something(s) that players are doing is deemed wrong/racist/controversial/illegal? Edit: Amended to reflect that I understand teams are asking players to not do stupid stuff on air but are they doing enough seeing as it keeps happening?
That's just a horrible argument. Shouldn't teenagers and young 20s know to never screw up and say or do something stupid? Really?
You think it's just a matter of harsher punishment = people never saying something stupid ever again? It doesn't work like that.
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On October 17 2012 11:45 Bart wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 10:14 Tachion wrote:On October 17 2012 09:51 Bart wrote:On October 17 2012 09:32 blade55555 wrote:
Hearing about the SRS reddit community and in general the dipshits who contact sponsors as a first thing when something goes wrong just pisses me off.
Really hope people can stop contacting sponsors over every stupid little thing and talk to team managers first before doing that drastic step. Teams still not learning to keep their members in check and not do stupid/illegal stuff just pisses me off. Hire a PR for goodness sake. I for one do not contact sponsors because I have not been overly offended by racist/political/underaged rape jokes but if I do you can bet I will. So you didn't take anything away from the show? Did you even listen or are you just making mindless comments in random threads? Good show overall, but like the above poster shows I don't think the sponsors talk is really going to reach the people it needs to. I was addressing the comment I quoted directly as I am doing so now. Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 10:16 IdrA wrote:On October 17 2012 09:51 Bart wrote:On October 17 2012 09:32 blade55555 wrote:
Hearing about the SRS reddit community and in general the dipshits who contact sponsors as a first thing when something goes wrong just pisses me off.
Really hope people can stop contacting sponsors over every stupid little thing and talk to team managers first before doing that drastic step. Teams still not learning to keep their members in check and not do stupid/illegal stuff just pisses me off. Hire a PR for goodness sake. I for one do not contact sponsors because I have not been overly offended by racist/political/underaged rape jokes but if I do you can bet I will. what do you think the month suspension was? its teaching stephano to not do things like that you think the current situation is players behaving completely unrestricted? you're pretty dumb if you do. think about how you talk with your friends and compare it with how we act in public. even compare how we act in different situations, on stream, in videos, on shows, at tournaments. if you want to be a part of establishing where those lines are drawn you should contact the teams, and if enough people agree with you then players will be forced to toe those lines. going to sponsors is just potentially sabotaging the industry you're trying to better. Obviously our expectations of the appropriate punishment differs greatly. I think we need to admit that fans going to sponsors have become a norm what with 3-4 controversial instances (maybe more?) of this sort occuring already. Managers, players, teams and industry celebrities have all come out to voice their unhappiness about this and yet still it (going to sponsors first) happens when players make controversial "mistakes". Shouldn't teams and players know how to "toe the line" by now? ie if you're on air, think before you hit "enter". I know easier said than done right. In conclusion, instead of trying to make hundreds of thousands of fans stop doing something isn't it easier to make the hundreds of players stop and think before doing/saying something especially if that something(s) that players are doing is deemed wrong/racist/controversial/illegal? Edit: Amended to reflect that I understand teams are asking players to not do stupid stuff on air but are they doing enough seeing as it keeps happening?
sponsors are being contacted and are forcing action, players keep doing stupid stuff. when you have an industry where the talent is a bunch of young immature guys this is going to happen. you are not going to instantly make everyone politically correct overnight. and if you make everyone act acceptably to everyone most people are going to find it pretty boring. so it's a matter of finding where the balance is and training players to maintain that balance. that is a slow process, it will not happen overnight whether you go to teams or sponsors. the only difference is that sponsors can just be like fuck it and leave the community at relatively low cost to themselves, and without their money we dont exist.
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I was really glad Idra and Incontrol called SRS for emailing the sponsors. Painuser is actually really growing on me, but I was afraid he was going to muddy the discussion. The SCReddit threads are full of people mocking the idea of contacting sponsors, the SRS threads are full of people mocking the idea of not doing it. Don't give the SC community a worse name than it deserves.
If EG can properly educate sponsors and the public about them they'll do the community a great service.
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God damnit there was a show? I'm always on the lookout for ITG and now I missed it. Fuck fuck fuck. Well now I guess I'll wait for the VOD.
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The last thing anyone should ever do if they care about this industry is to complain to sponsors. I rage about this all the time. What kind of bastard would complain to a company that is willing to sponsor a fledgling industry that needs all the money it can get? If you care - don't whine to sponsors. Please FFS don't do it. Take it to the teams first.
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On October 17 2012 12:45 Qwyn wrote:
God damnit there was a show? I'm always on the lookout for ITG and now I missed it. Fuck fuck fuck. Well now I guess I'll wait for the VOD.
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The last thing anyone should ever do if they care about this industry is to complain to sponsors. I rage about this all the time. What kind of bastard would complain to a company that is willing to sponsor a fledgling industry that needs all the money it can get? If you care - don't whine to sponsors. Please FFS don't do it. Take it to the teams first.
VOD is already up, in two parts.
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I hope God rewards you with strong and healthy children
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I liked the idea of e-mailing the sponsors , letting them know that thier product was purchased due to thier sponsorship of EG , or any other SC2 team. I bought my steel series Siberia V2 due to the advertisement. It's good the sponsors know that thier advertisement through this route is well worth thier investment.
Edit - cant find the link to the thread , can someone post it please ?
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On October 17 2012 10:19 Mithiel wrote:
Don't wanna be an total asshole but Painuser needs to go.
All the shit he talks about during the show makes me just wanna mute. Either he talks about something unrelevant or he just repeats what someone else just said.
We need a more relevant terran. Not saying painuser dosen't know his shit because I really don't know, but we need a player. Someone like a Demuslim, QXC or any European Terran.
He seems to be out of touch with both the game and community (not knowing that Doa went to Korea and casts OSL even though he's a colleague and knows him?). He also has recurring technical difficulties which makes the show annoying to watch and listen to, which is the biggest problem to me. It just kills the mood.
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Thanks a lot  Perfect for ladder.
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On October 17 2012 12:10 Mauldo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 11:18 theJob wrote:On October 17 2012 10:19 Mithiel wrote:
Don't wanna be an total asshole but Painuser needs to go.
All the shit he talks about during the show makes me just wanna mute. Either he talks about something unrelevant or he just repeats what someone else just said.
We need a more relevant terran. Not saying painuser dosen't know his shit because I really don't know, but we need a player. Someone like a Demuslim, QXC or any European Terran. I got to agree. He's a master of the awkward arts and whenever he speaks the show grinds to a halt. I'm sure he's a nice person irl but he's terrible on itg. Not to mention the fact that his opinion isn't even respected by his fellow hosts. Idra/Incontrol openly laugh at half of what he says. It's not even about results. QXC has readily and regularly gone toe to toe with Incontrol/Idra on SOTG and come away on top or at least having held his own. They still make fun of Painuser actually having the argument that DTs are better than Banshees, and there's a reason for that.
I agree. Atm I just try to mute it when Painuser talks. :/
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Ah, I laughed so hard at DJWheat's despair with all the tech problems. ^_^
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The problem with all of this drama that has gone to sponsors is all bogus. I don't even think it's actually offended people going to sponsors. It's just reddit/4chan etc., trolls that know they can get shit done for the lulz by sending emails and tweets to gaming sponsors. Nothing that has caused the uproar to sponsors (I think 3-4 things have now?) have been that bad or been outside the realm of what happens daily in the internet communities. I can't believe all of the shit 'our community' has been riled up over and I wonder where these people were the last ten years. Is SC2 their first online experience?
TL:DR I think the people that contacts sponsors are not even members of our community but rather internet trolls and fuck ups that just want to do it for reaction, lulz etc.
edit: side note, I agree with the sentiment about removing PainUser. I can tell he's a really nice guy and super cool but I just don't want to listen to his opinions on anything. :/
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I'd love to hear a back-and-forth between Destiny and iNcontroL. One's advocating a completely top-down Riot approach to eSports, the other a much more community-driven model. Very different approaches, I really want to hear them debate the merits.
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@luckoftheirish
Well one of those two is actually a serious professional gamer interested in growing the community. The other is a D-list celebutant who'd be perfectly willing to never say another honest word if it got him a few new viewers.
I can't imagine a bigger waste of InControl's time.
As for contacting sponsors, of course SRS people advocate contacting sponsors. They aren't SC2 fans, so they don't care about the community's survival & since they're not fans teams don't care too much about them. If they want to crusade, it's their obvious move.
Now personally, I only contact sponsors when I have something both positive and genuine to say. But one of the reasons I'm a fan of SC2 is because it's the esport with the most mature, polite, and least assholish community (example: reaction to Scarlett's emergence on SC2's scene, thank you TL moderators). I'm quite happy to see jerks put in their place for being jerks, and I honestly don't have a huge problem seeing the hammer drop on them.
EG has long been one of my favorite teams not least because they are simultaneously professional and fun (Idra does not actually exhibit bad behavior, unless you count an amusingly high level of honesty and/or showmanship; InControl finally learned to stop making everything sexual innuendo, most of the time). And I became a minor Complexity fan when they dropped Destiny like the bad idea he was.
Yeah, sometimes teams with good-citizen players get hurt when crusaders (not I) target sponsors. Well, live in fear and have a financial reason for having a moral code. Sure, sometimes there's an overreaction (example: Orb, largely because scandal was in the past, not well known, and not while on EG; example2: Stephano if he was joking around). Sometimes, people get what's coming to them (example: Stephano if he wasn't joking around; example2-2308: everything involving Destiny).
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On October 18 2012 10:20 MisterFred wrote:
@luckoftheirish
Well one of those two is actually a serious professional gamer interested in growing the community. The other is a D-list celebutant who'd be perfectly willing to never say another honest word if it got him a few new viewers.
I can't imagine a bigger waste of InControl's time.
Look, I'm not a fan of Destiny, but he relies on this esports thing working out as much as Geoff does. They're both at this point making their living as personalities. And it's not just Destiny who holds the view that Blizzard holds the key to the survival of SC2; I think he's just the one who's most articulately argued that case. As Geoff is the biggest advocate of the community-driven approach, I can't think of two people better suited to speak to their cases and debate and discuss.
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Frankly, I don't see much to discuss there.
Destiny seems like the kind of person who'd see the easy way out. Hey, look over there, come savior and prop up our industry with free money! Completely ignoring the possibility that he is exactly the sort of loose cannon (& second-tier) player that would be least likely to benefit from a more centralized tourney organization.
Fact of the matter is, I don't see a ton of similarity between LoL & SC2 e-sports from Blizzard & Riot's point of view. Blizzard sells SC2 in the traditional manner. They put in a large capital investment, get back a giant influx of cash upon release, an influx that quickly diminishes to a slow trickle after the game's release. Where is the benefit to e-sports for them? Basically 2 things:
1) Word-of-mouth advertisement. This is actually a relatively small thing, as gamers don't really push other people to watch SC2 who don't already know it well enough to potentially own a copy of it. There's some benefit to Blizzard here, but it doesn't seem like Blizzard sees it as enough to make a major investment. Even with Brood War in Korea, the mass availability of BW in PCBangs came BEFORE Kespa. Before the initial launch of SC2, Blizzard cared little about esports. It just didn't have significant financial upside for them. In fact, their only major efforts in the e-sports scene were to a) make sure they had a legal way to extort money from wildly successful esports endeavors by making all people offering a prize pool over $5,000 apply for a tourney license and b) pressuring Kespa to end BW broadcasts in an effort to get Korean fans to switch to the new game.
2) Generating expansion enthusiasm. This is the reason Blizzard is holding a big WCS push this year, and don't doubt it for a second. The SC2 sales period is pretty much over, but HOTS is coming out. Blizzard needs to increase enthusiasm for SC2 so that the game remains high enough in the consciousness of those who bought SC2 that HOTS seems exciting and new and desirable. This gets them their next big payday. It is no accident that Blizzard is trying to get people from around the world into WCS, and no accident that their big investment happened THIS YEAR, at what is honestly a sub-optimal time for SC2 esports (why not last year?). This year is their leadup to HOTS, and WCS is part of their advertising - advertising aimed primarily at people who already own SC2.
Long story short - if Blizzard doesn't have an SC2 expansion to market they will immediately end major financial support for the esports scene. This is why Geoff is right. Long-term survival of SC2 esports requires community-driven growth. Otherwise you're just riding the advertising boom straight down into the bust.
League of Legends is DIFFERENT. Why? It's a free-to-play game. Which doesn't mean Riot doesn't make money. They make it hand over fist. But they make it through micro-transactions. Selling easy access to characters & distinctive skins.
This is a fundamentally different revenue stream than SC2. There is a smaller capital investment then a relatively consistent revenue stream that rises and falls with the size of their player base. And the fanaticism of their player base.
Riot does not expect e-sports to grow their player/customer base, the only reason Blizzard would support SC2 e-sports (as increasing the # of people who own Blizzard games is the only way to increase Blizzard's revenue stream.
Riot wants esports for two reasons:
1) Keep existing players involved with the game. This function is easy to understand from an SC2 e-sports persecutive. How many of us continue to play SC2 primarily because we get excited about it after watching e-sports. That's the case with me, certainly. Blizzard doesn't really care all that much if B.net servers are filled. But for Riot, the long-term attention of its customers on LoL is critical to their bottom line. If people keep playing, that's a larger number of people who will buy the new Gragras skin. Supporting e-sports provides another way to keep Riot's players interested in LoL & thus increases Riot's bottom line. A clear reason for Riot to support a healthy e-sports community.
2) Increase the passion of players involved with LoL. The retention of the player base is not the only benefit of e-sports for Riot. The greater the passion of the players, the larger number of impatient impulse buys they will make. Riot should really get the pro players to occasionally use the more distinctive skins - prompting players to buy them. Or say a player sees a pro player have a breakout game when the meta-game shifts and a previously unpopular hero becomes a major factor in pro play. Boom! E-sports fans mob that character buying him in the Riot store to try out the pro strategies. This equals money for Riot. So where factor #1 increases the number of players Riot can potentially sell to, this factor increases the amount of money they can make off each player. A major reason for Riot to support e-sports. And one Blizzard simply does not have.
Geoff sees this. I'm not making him out to be some economist savant, but he spends at least some time thinking about the underlying support for his industry. And direct Blizzard support is nice, bit it is ephemeral. It will vanish under the scene's feet when much of them do not expect it.
Destiny is dead wrong because he didn't think much about this. He looks over at what Riot is doing and things "my life would be easier if Blizzard did this" without realizing that the situations are VASTLY different.
SC2 has a major advantage over LoL as an e-sport, the one everyone knows about. It's better visually as a sport & requires low game knowledge to 'get' while watching. LoL is a confusing mess to watch unless you play LoL. I occasionally play LoL and I have no idea what's going on during fights in the few pro matches I've watched. SC2 e-sports people need to leverage their advantage and grow SC2 like a traditional sport relying on viewership, advertising, and their superior fan demographic to hopefully build a long-term business model, while praying Blizzard doesn't screw them over rather than hoping for handouts.
LoL has a major advantage over SC2 as an e-sport, the massive financial motivation of a cash-flush corporation to subsidize a credible e-sports scene. They should know they will never gain viewers who are not MOBA players, and concentrate on supporting Riot's goals because building an independent e-sport that can grow without the game is impossible for them, but they CAN rely on Riot's relatively steady support while LoL remains relevant. Unlike the SC2 scene.
Totally different business models for games & e-sports communities.
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EPT
