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[Show] Inside The Game - Official Thread - Page 177

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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Hashbaz
Profile Joined July 2010
United States340 Posts
February 15 2012 03:49 GMT
#3521
On February 15 2012 12:06 Plansix wrote:
Is the MP3 up or going to be up?

Episode 31 mp3 is up at http://snd.sc/zKNraS. Enjoy!
ESPORTS prevails
MrDudeMan
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada973 Posts
February 15 2012 03:50 GMT
#3522
On February 15 2012 10:28 TheEmulator wrote:
goatlust is a boss


Its nice to know every show theres at least going to be one good question.
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
February 15 2012 03:56 GMT
#3523
On February 15 2012 12:39 Drascus wrote:
I was a huge Idra fanboy from back in the beta, but man he makes it hard to be a fan of his. I'm much more interested in DRG, or Sheth nowadays.


Same, except not so much sheth. But yeah I've been a huge fann of Idra since beta and he was a main reason why I switched from T to Z, to repent for my sinful T ways (and boy am I paying for it.) But now I almost don't want to see him play, because I know he'll just do something dumb and lose when he should've won, and rage, and it just hurts to watch my favorite player defeat himself over and over and still not learn.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
svefnleysi
Profile Joined March 2011
Iceland623 Posts
February 15 2012 03:56 GMT
#3524
I was disappointed they didn't discuss Idra's showmatch against Alive.

Then Goatlust saves the day.

Many lessthanthree's to you, sir.
Muggs
Profile Joined April 2010
United States148 Posts
February 15 2012 03:57 GMT
#3525
On February 15 2012 12:49 Hashbaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:06 Plansix wrote:
Is the MP3 up or going to be up?

Episode 31 mp3 is up at http://snd.sc/zKNraS. Enjoy!


Thank you sir. ITG has a mean delay on the live show and the podcast update.
di3alot
Profile Joined December 2011
172 Posts
February 15 2012 04:51 GMT
#3526
On February 15 2012 10:42 MrDudeMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 10:29 di3alot wrote:
On February 15 2012 09:44 hunts wrote:
On February 15 2012 09:41 _Mittens wrote:
I really like how professional starcraft players are better than us at starcraft, and everything else in the world. Am I the only person who feels like most SC2 pros look down on us in general. When they talk about "business strategies" and marketing and PR and all that stuff, they talk down to us. Just because I suck as SC2 doesn't mean I am a dumb person. Talk to me like an equal, please.

I'm not really directing this at everyone on the show, just a general sense of frustration.


Because most foreign pros DO know a lot about business and PR. They have to, since that's what their sponnsored for, to do PR and be marketable, since they sure as hell aren't the ones getting the results (koreans are.)


they do?rly? give me 10 examples about SC2 pros who have a lot of knowledge about business and PR.
so basically most of foreigner pros could run an mlg/dreamhack because they understand the business side of such things?

and when i hear something from idra like ppv would hurt the growing of sc2
cmon stop dreaming
nothing is growing at this point.

there is a point with any niche thing where you have a base number and this number will stay hopefully constant.
at this point to invest in getting new people in is a waste.
you rather invest in keeping the people you have by providing them more awesomeness.

i will buy the first mlg arena shit and when i feel thats not worth my money.
i will not buy the second one its that easy.



A business should always be growing, if not then your business is not really succeeding. Why do you think companies as large as coca cola still advertise. Investing money in growing the scene is a very smart move, an even smarter move is to invest money so that you can do both, grow the scene and please your current subscribers. It doesnt take extensive business knowledge to understand a situation such as this one, all it takes is the ability to compare it to other PPV events (UFC, WWE). Also while SC2 pros may not know more about business than you, you can be sure they know more about the scene than you.


nah nah i disagree with your statement "when a business is not growing it means that is failing".
with that being said sc2 would be failure and any other e-sport game also because none of the past current e-sport games are growing constantly.
all games hit a peak and from there on it goes back/down
some games die slowly some games very rapidly
and ppv is not affecting any growth of the scene
it may affect the viewer base of mlg but not the whole scene.
it would affect the scene when mlg would be something like evo for the fighting game community but thats not the case here.
i think sundance is aware that he can not expect the same numbers and i think he is fine with that.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 15 2012 05:47 GMT
#3527
On February 15 2012 13:51 di3alot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 10:42 MrDudeMan wrote:
On February 15 2012 10:29 di3alot wrote:
On February 15 2012 09:44 hunts wrote:
On February 15 2012 09:41 _Mittens wrote:
I really like how professional starcraft players are better than us at starcraft, and everything else in the world. Am I the only person who feels like most SC2 pros look down on us in general. When they talk about "business strategies" and marketing and PR and all that stuff, they talk down to us. Just because I suck as SC2 doesn't mean I am a dumb person. Talk to me like an equal, please.

I'm not really directing this at everyone on the show, just a general sense of frustration.


Because most foreign pros DO know a lot about business and PR. They have to, since that's what their sponnsored for, to do PR and be marketable, since they sure as hell aren't the ones getting the results (koreans are.)


they do?rly? give me 10 examples about SC2 pros who have a lot of knowledge about business and PR.
so basically most of foreigner pros could run an mlg/dreamhack because they understand the business side of such things?

and when i hear something from idra like ppv would hurt the growing of sc2
cmon stop dreaming
nothing is growing at this point.

there is a point with any niche thing where you have a base number and this number will stay hopefully constant.
at this point to invest in getting new people in is a waste.
you rather invest in keeping the people you have by providing them more awesomeness.

i will buy the first mlg arena shit and when i feel thats not worth my money.
i will not buy the second one its that easy.



A business should always be growing, if not then your business is not really succeeding. Why do you think companies as large as coca cola still advertise. Investing money in growing the scene is a very smart move, an even smarter move is to invest money so that you can do both, grow the scene and please your current subscribers. It doesnt take extensive business knowledge to understand a situation such as this one, all it takes is the ability to compare it to other PPV events (UFC, WWE). Also while SC2 pros may not know more about business than you, you can be sure they know more about the scene than you.


nah nah i disagree with your statement "when a business is not growing it means that is failing".
with that being said sc2 would be failure and any other e-sport game also because none of the past current e-sport games are growing constantly.
all games hit a peak and from there on it goes back/down
some games die slowly some games very rapidly
and ppv is not affecting any growth of the scene
it may affect the viewer base of mlg but not the whole scene.
it would affect the scene when mlg would be something like evo for the fighting game community but thats not the case here.
i think sundance is aware that he can not expect the same numbers and i think he is fine with that.

games before have not had the pure spectator appeal that sc2 has. i doubt any game before has drawn anywhere near as many dedicated viewers who dont play the game at all, or if they do do so at a very low, casual level. its entirely possible that sc2 can continue to grow its spectator audience without increasing the number of people who actually play. and honestly if we're going to establish esports as a legitimate, ongoing thing it's going to be on the back of a game that can do exactly that.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1601 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 07:13:36
February 15 2012 06:53 GMT
#3528
You guys on Inside The Game really dropped the ball tonight when discussing the MLG PPV. You seemed just to go with the flow even while realizing that if this was to be the model it was done too quickly by MLG. They just showed the qualifiers for free and guessed based off that they might be able to bank $20 from a majority of viewers based off the hype from those qualifiers.

When discussing this new idea let’s compare it to the NFL. The games that are broadcasted on TV are essentially free when you consider that when you purchase cable you have access to everything and despite paying for cable if you were to price every show you had potential access to throughout the month that each show is worth less than a cent. With that in mind the NFL is still BIG business. The model allows for all parties to get what they want out of the deal. The NFL gets money by selling the rights to broadcast their game on your network. The network gets money by charging advertisers a fee for the slot during the game. The advertisers get a consideration by the viewers that when they are purchasing a certain product that their specific product is in consideration. And finally the viewers get to watch the NFL game. In the end everyone gets what they want out of the event. Everyone scratching everyone else’s back with money in some form.

In this scenario compared to MLG if one back isn’t scratched it is because they’re doing something wrong. They shouldn’t need extra money to survive. They all have potential for growth in this form as well. MLG creates this sick new Winter Arena. It entices more viewers. MLG can now command more money per event from their advertisers. Their advertisers can see that this thing they’re investing their money in is gaining more interest and their product is getting more recognition making their expense worth it. The viewer is now able to watch a WCG style event that is actually has the potential to product INSANE content.

Now, we move on to why MLG is not only taking a risk that is not worth it, but perhaps are just being greedy because they can be. This current model alienates a ton of viewers in a very limited market from viewing perhaps one of the best events of the year. When you alienate that amount of people even for one event, and even if you don’t actually use advertisers for that event, those advertisers can still view the stream numbers and back out of sponsoring future events based off a belief that Esports is trending down all because MLG wanted to make a quick buck today rather than invest in the future. MLG keeps making the argument that they are not a profitable company. A caller linked DJWheat to an article which was indeed written in 2009, but if it is a factual article from Fnatic then some inferences should be made from it. If indeed during the 2009 year MLG did generate 50 million dollars in revenue one should assume that the years proceeding 2009 they made more. Starcraft 2 was not out during the 2009 season and I believe was only in the latter part of 2010, but with Starcraft 2 came a fuck ton of new viewers. With their numbers continually growing per event being run MLG should have been able to secure more money from advertisers. If Dr. Pepper, Doritos, and the HorseGuy (centaur) thought it was worth paying a certain amount for X amount of viewers they should think that paying X + more for more viewers would be worth it as well. Now, if we infer that everything so far is true they now have even more than 50 million dollars in revenue in 2011. In 2011 they also ran the same amount of events as they did in 2010(1), but there was more money to be made in 2011 and yet they claim to be fueling it all into esports. They did in 2011 have a few extra programs going on mainly the online shows, but those shows should not have cost them much of the extra profit that was made in 2011. Now, again inferring that all of this is true there is money missing. The extra money obtained from sponsors by product of their advertisements being seen by more eyes. Where did it go? I don’t know.

I like to question the larger organizations in the classic way by asking are you bullshitting us? Is MLG really struggling despite obtaining more viewers at every event? If you only bring in 50 million dollars revenue and claim you have 50+ million in liabilities each year what is your biggest liability? Is it Sundance’s paycheck? How does a company struggle every year since inception and still exist? Why if you’re struggling would you hold an event with a format this expensive? Why when you have such an awesome tournament coming up would you change the format to one that has the highest possibility of alienating a vast majority of those who would have watched? If you are indeed fueling esports why not provide a balance sheet for me to ponder on? Perhaps I will spot that you’re paying too much for glue because that is what you must be sniffing if you think you will get even 20% of those who watched MLG Providence to pay $20 for a weekend event.

Now, if my entire argument about MLG being greedy was false. That means one of two things. They are pumping money back into Esports at the perfect rate and Sundance takes home his “fair” share every year the company itself however lives tournament to tournament with only a small cushion. Or. MLG is losing money by doing something wrong. Along the lines there is an issue with money where some side is getting too much or not enough. If MLG signed a 50 year deal with Dr. Pepper for $10,000 per year then they messed up. If MLG rents out their convention centers at $20 million per weekend then they are paying too much. Those are just extremes for the nitpickers out there. Either way MLG needs to trim more fat in the best way possible.

In closing though while I still think this move is a dick move by MLG I’m still fucking paying for what I think will be one of the best tournaments so far for SC2. You can’t beat these TOP ONLY tournaments. I will catch some Assembly, but it will probably be much later on when the weaker players have been weeded out and only during breaks from Winter Arena. I don’t want to support this MLG decision, but there aren’t any barcrafts near me so the rest of you need to take the reins.

1) I don’t know if the number of events in 2010 was equal to for a fact. I can’t find a listing of all the events in both the years, but I was relying on memory.
2) I know I use too many pronouns
3) The inference part is all about making sure that people realize there is potential they're being bullshitted by MLG and to show that the caller who was easily dismissed even though his latter points were completely mute had a valid point in bringing up that if revenue is 50 million and they claim they're pumping 50 million back into it do you really think their end product costs that much?
4) http://www.fnatic.com/scene/6582/mlg-50-million-in-revenue-this-year.html - link to supposed MLG revenue in 2009
xrayEU
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden571 Posts
February 15 2012 09:55 GMT
#3529
On February 15 2012 12:49 Hashbaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:06 Plansix wrote:
Is the MP3 up or going to be up?

Episode 31 mp3 is up at http://snd.sc/zKNraS. Enjoy!


Thank you sir! Very nice of you!
AlternativeEgo
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden17309 Posts
February 15 2012 10:08 GMT
#3530
Do anyone know where I can watch episode 30? I thought they had a break after 29 and then I get 31 without seeing 30. Can't find it in the twitch archives. It's like the lost episode.
Mark Munoz looks like Gretorp
Goatlust88
Profile Joined May 2011
Australia69 Posts
February 15 2012 11:12 GMT
#3531
On February 15 2012 19:08 AlternativeEgo wrote:
Do anyone know where I can watch episode 30? I thought they had a break after 29 and then I get 31 without seeing 30. Can't find it in the twitch archives. It's like the lost episode.

It used to be up there but it isn't anymore. I would say that Wheat went back and removed it because towards the end miniwheat walked into the room naked to check his computer.
AlternativeEgo
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden17309 Posts
February 15 2012 11:24 GMT
#3532
On February 15 2012 20:12 Goatlust88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 19:08 AlternativeEgo wrote:
Do anyone know where I can watch episode 30? I thought they had a break after 29 and then I get 31 without seeing 30. Can't find it in the twitch archives. It's like the lost episode.

It used to be up there but it isn't anymore. I would say that Wheat went back and removed it because towards the end miniwheat walked into the room naked to check his computer.


I do that all the time. Or: That's unfortunate, thanks for the answer.
Mark Munoz looks like Gretorp
MrDudeMan
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada973 Posts
February 15 2012 14:05 GMT
#3533
On February 15 2012 15:53 NoobSkills wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

You guys on Inside The Game really dropped the ball tonight when discussing the MLG PPV. You seemed just to go with the flow even while realizing that if this was to be the model it was done too quickly by MLG. They just showed the qualifiers for free and guessed based off that they might be able to bank $20 from a majority of viewers based off the hype from those qualifiers.

When discussing this new idea let’s compare it to the NFL. The games that are broadcasted on TV are essentially free when you consider that when you purchase cable you have access to everything and despite paying for cable if you were to price every show you had potential access to throughout the month that each show is worth less than a cent. With that in mind the NFL is still BIG business. The model allows for all parties to get what they want out of the deal. The NFL gets money by selling the rights to broadcast their game on your network. The network gets money by charging advertisers a fee for the slot during the game. The advertisers get a consideration by the viewers that when they are purchasing a certain product that their specific product is in consideration. And finally the viewers get to watch the NFL game. In the end everyone gets what they want out of the event. Everyone scratching everyone else’s back with money in some form.

In this scenario compared to MLG if one back isn’t scratched it is because they’re doing something wrong. They shouldn’t need extra money to survive. They all have potential for growth in this form as well. MLG creates this sick new Winter Arena. It entices more viewers. MLG can now command more money per event from their advertisers. Their advertisers can see that this thing they’re investing their money in is gaining more interest and their product is getting more recognition making their expense worth it. The viewer is now able to watch a WCG style event that is actually has the potential to product INSANE content.

Now, we move on to why MLG is not only taking a risk that is not worth it, but perhaps are just being greedy because they can be. This current model alienates a ton of viewers in a very limited market from viewing perhaps one of the best events of the year. When you alienate that amount of people even for one event, and even if you don’t actually use advertisers for that event, those advertisers can still view the stream numbers and back out of sponsoring future events based off a belief that Esports is trending down all because MLG wanted to make a quick buck today rather than invest in the future. MLG keeps making the argument that they are not a profitable company. A caller linked DJWheat to an article which was indeed written in 2009, but if it is a factual article from Fnatic then some inferences should be made from it. If indeed during the 2009 year MLG did generate 50 million dollars in revenue one should assume that the years proceeding 2009 they made more. Starcraft 2 was not out during the 2009 season and I believe was only in the latter part of 2010, but with Starcraft 2 came a fuck ton of new viewers. With their numbers continually growing per event being run MLG should have been able to secure more money from advertisers. If Dr. Pepper, Doritos, and the HorseGuy (centaur) thought it was worth paying a certain amount for X amount of viewers they should think that paying X + more for more viewers would be worth it as well. Now, if we infer that everything so far is true they now have even more than 50 million dollars in revenue in 2011. In 2011 they also ran the same amount of events as they did in 2010(1), but there was more money to be made in 2011 and yet they claim to be fueling it all into esports. They did in 2011 have a few extra programs going on mainly the online shows, but those shows should not have cost them much of the extra profit that was made in 2011. Now, again inferring that all of this is true there is money missing. The extra money obtained from sponsors by product of their advertisements being seen by more eyes. Where did it go? I don’t know.

I like to question the larger organizations in the classic way by asking are you bullshitting us? Is MLG really struggling despite obtaining more viewers at every event? If you only bring in 50 million dollars revenue and claim you have 50+ million in liabilities each year what is your biggest liability? Is it Sundance’s paycheck? How does a company struggle every year since inception and still exist? Why if you’re struggling would you hold an event with a format this expensive? Why when you have such an awesome tournament coming up would you change the format to one that has the highest possibility of alienating a vast majority of those who would have watched? If you are indeed fueling esports why not provide a balance sheet for me to ponder on? Perhaps I will spot that you’re paying too much for glue because that is what you must be sniffing if you think you will get even 20% of those who watched MLG Providence to pay $20 for a weekend event.

Now, if my entire argument about MLG being greedy was false. That means one of two things. They are pumping money back into Esports at the perfect rate and Sundance takes home his “fair” share every year the company itself however lives tournament to tournament with only a small cushion. Or. MLG is losing money by doing something wrong. Along the lines there is an issue with money where some side is getting too much or not enough. If MLG signed a 50 year deal with Dr. Pepper for $10,000 per year then they messed up. If MLG rents out their convention centers at $20 million per weekend then they are paying too much. Those are just extremes for the nitpickers out there. Either way MLG needs to trim more fat in the best way possible.

In closing though while I still think this move is a dick move by MLG I’m still fucking paying for what I think will be one of the best tournaments so far for SC2. You can’t beat these TOP ONLY tournaments. I will catch some Assembly, but it will probably be much later on when the weaker players have been weeded out and only during breaks from Winter Arena. I don’t want to support this MLG decision, but there aren’t any barcrafts near me so the rest of you need to take the reins.

1) I don’t know if the number of events in 2010 was equal to for a fact. I can’t find a listing of all the events in both the years, but I was relying on memory.
2) I know I use too many pronouns
3) The inference part is all about making sure that people realize there is potential they're being bullshitted by MLG and to show that the caller who was easily dismissed even though his latter points were completely mute had a valid point in bringing up that if revenue is 50 million and they claim they're pumping 50 million back into it do you really think their end product costs that much?
4) http://www.fnatic.com/scene/6582/mlg-50-million-in-revenue-this-year.html - link to supposed MLG revenue in 2009


It's not too hard to believe MLG is running on a deficit. They have been around for a very long time, but were no where near as popular as they are now (perhaps they were when they were on TV). The cost for doing what they do is very high, and ultimately their goal is to grow their business until the point where they no longer need to rely on sponsor money. I think the hosts on the show actually covered this topic really well, and were spot on in their analysis. The idea of a PPV model isnt necessarily a bad one, its just that this execution of a PPV model is horrible.
jammedk
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark315 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 16:41:51
February 15 2012 16:29 GMT
#3534
On February 15 2012 14:47 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 13:51 di3alot wrote:
On February 15 2012 10:42 MrDudeMan wrote:
On February 15 2012 10:29 di3alot wrote:
On February 15 2012 09:44 hunts wrote:
On February 15 2012 09:41 _Mittens wrote:
I really like how professional starcraft players are better than us at starcraft, and everything else in the world. Am I the only person who feels like most SC2 pros look down on us in general. When they talk about "business strategies" and marketing and PR and all that stuff, they talk down to us. Just because I suck as SC2 doesn't mean I am a dumb person. Talk to me like an equal, please.

I'm not really directing this at everyone on the show, just a general sense of frustration.


Because most foreign pros DO know a lot about business and PR. They have to, since that's what their sponnsored for, to do PR and be marketable, since they sure as hell aren't the ones getting the results (koreans are.)


they do?rly? give me 10 examples about SC2 pros who have a lot of knowledge about business and PR.
so basically most of foreigner pros could run an mlg/dreamhack because they understand the business side of such things?

and when i hear something from idra like ppv would hurt the growing of sc2
cmon stop dreaming
nothing is growing at this point.

there is a point with any niche thing where you have a base number and this number will stay hopefully constant.
at this point to invest in getting new people in is a waste.
you rather invest in keeping the people you have by providing them more awesomeness.

i will buy the first mlg arena shit and when i feel thats not worth my money.
i will not buy the second one its that easy.



A business should always be growing, if not then your business is not really succeeding. Why do you think companies as large as coca cola still advertise. Investing money in growing the scene is a very smart move, an even smarter move is to invest money so that you can do both, grow the scene and please your current subscribers. It doesnt take extensive business knowledge to understand a situation such as this one, all it takes is the ability to compare it to other PPV events (UFC, WWE). Also while SC2 pros may not know more about business than you, you can be sure they know more about the scene than you.


nah nah i disagree with your statement "when a business is not growing it means that is failing".
with that being said sc2 would be failure and any other e-sport game also because none of the past current e-sport games are growing constantly.
all games hit a peak and from there on it goes back/down
some games die slowly some games very rapidly
and ppv is not affecting any growth of the scene
it may affect the viewer base of mlg but not the whole scene.
it would affect the scene when mlg would be something like evo for the fighting game community but thats not the case here.
i think sundance is aware that he can not expect the same numbers and i think he is fine with that.

games before have not had the pure spectator appeal that sc2 has. i doubt any game before has drawn anywhere near as many dedicated viewers who dont play the game at all, or if they do do so at a very low, casual level. its entirely possible that sc2 can continue to grow its spectator audience without increasing the number of people who actually play. and honestly if we're going to establish esports as a legitimate, ongoing thing it's going to be on the back of a game that can do exactly that.


I agree with this vehemently. This "sport" will never be able to sustain itself by having a few thousand hardcore fans willing to shill out 20$ per ppv event, all in the name of "Supporting e-sports". It just won't generate enough cash to legitimize the current cash prizes in big events.

Until then... maybe chill before arranging an event that pays for hotels, airline tickets et. al. for 32 professionals?

You need to build it, and they will come. WHEN enough of them are here, charge the individuals who are willing to pay for the good seats (HD quality, extra streams etc.) - and let the rest (students, casual fans) enjoy the LQ stream.

It´s called price differentiation. Everybody has an individual limit, towards how much they are willing to pay. Generate ppv turnover from people willing. 20$ for the ultimate backstage five stream experience. Maybe 5-10$ for HQ regular stream. Generate add-view turnover from the rest for an LQ stream.

Edit: Maybe this was for another thread...
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
February 15 2012 18:26 GMT
#3535
On February 16 2012 01:29 jammedk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 14:47 IdrA wrote:
On February 15 2012 13:51 di3alot wrote:
On February 15 2012 10:42 MrDudeMan wrote:
On February 15 2012 10:29 di3alot wrote:
On February 15 2012 09:44 hunts wrote:
On February 15 2012 09:41 _Mittens wrote:
I really like how professional starcraft players are better than us at starcraft, and everything else in the world. Am I the only person who feels like most SC2 pros look down on us in general. When they talk about "business strategies" and marketing and PR and all that stuff, they talk down to us. Just because I suck as SC2 doesn't mean I am a dumb person. Talk to me like an equal, please.

I'm not really directing this at everyone on the show, just a general sense of frustration.


Because most foreign pros DO know a lot about business and PR. They have to, since that's what their sponnsored for, to do PR and be marketable, since they sure as hell aren't the ones getting the results (koreans are.)


they do?rly? give me 10 examples about SC2 pros who have a lot of knowledge about business and PR.
so basically most of foreigner pros could run an mlg/dreamhack because they understand the business side of such things?

and when i hear something from idra like ppv would hurt the growing of sc2
cmon stop dreaming
nothing is growing at this point.

there is a point with any niche thing where you have a base number and this number will stay hopefully constant.
at this point to invest in getting new people in is a waste.
you rather invest in keeping the people you have by providing them more awesomeness.

i will buy the first mlg arena shit and when i feel thats not worth my money.
i will not buy the second one its that easy.



A business should always be growing, if not then your business is not really succeeding. Why do you think companies as large as coca cola still advertise. Investing money in growing the scene is a very smart move, an even smarter move is to invest money so that you can do both, grow the scene and please your current subscribers. It doesnt take extensive business knowledge to understand a situation such as this one, all it takes is the ability to compare it to other PPV events (UFC, WWE). Also while SC2 pros may not know more about business than you, you can be sure they know more about the scene than you.


nah nah i disagree with your statement "when a business is not growing it means that is failing".
with that being said sc2 would be failure and any other e-sport game also because none of the past current e-sport games are growing constantly.
all games hit a peak and from there on it goes back/down
some games die slowly some games very rapidly
and ppv is not affecting any growth of the scene
it may affect the viewer base of mlg but not the whole scene.
it would affect the scene when mlg would be something like evo for the fighting game community but thats not the case here.
i think sundance is aware that he can not expect the same numbers and i think he is fine with that.

games before have not had the pure spectator appeal that sc2 has. i doubt any game before has drawn anywhere near as many dedicated viewers who dont play the game at all, or if they do do so at a very low, casual level. its entirely possible that sc2 can continue to grow its spectator audience without increasing the number of people who actually play. and honestly if we're going to establish esports as a legitimate, ongoing thing it's going to be on the back of a game that can do exactly that.


I agree with this vehemently. This "sport" will never be able to sustain itself by having a few thousand hardcore fans willing to shill out 20$ per ppv event, all in the name of "Supporting e-sports". It just won't generate enough cash to legitimize the current cash prizes in big events.

Until then... maybe chill before arranging an event that pays for hotels, airline tickets et. al. for 32 professionals?

You need to build it, and they will come. WHEN enough of them are here, charge the individuals who are willing to pay for the good seats (HD quality, extra streams etc.) - and let the rest (students, casual fans) enjoy the LQ stream.

It´s called price differentiation. Everybody has an individual limit, towards how much they are willing to pay. Generate ppv turnover from people willing. 20$ for the ultimate backstage five stream experience. Maybe 5-10$ for HQ regular stream. Generate add-view turnover from the rest for an LQ stream.

Edit: Maybe this was for another thread...


not only that but

part of growing starcraft 2 is growing the fanbase.

creating an event that will do the exact opposite...it just makes my head hurt. sure it might help mlg as a company, but it doesn't help starcraft.

but...mlg as a company isn't concerned about starcraft first and foremost either, and that's something people miss. it cares about mlg, and about esports as a whole. personally id rather see mlg drop sc2 altogether so we'd have less saturation, and one less tournament doing sub-par and expecting people to pay for it. the biggest thing they had going for them was the live event...and the arenas arent even going to be live events.

everything about it just screams wrong direction.
ilikeredheads
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1995 Posts
February 15 2012 18:29 GMT
#3536
Can someone PLEASE add the link to where the latest VODs in the OP???

Please?
busbarn
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden984 Posts
February 15 2012 18:31 GMT
#3537
On February 15 2012 12:49 Hashbaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:06 Plansix wrote:
Is the MP3 up or going to be up?

Episode 31 mp3 is up at http://snd.sc/zKNraS. Enjoy!

wow, first time I'll listen to ITG in half a year because i've never managed to get a fresh mp3, thanks alot.
MattyClutch
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States711 Posts
February 15 2012 18:44 GMT
#3538
On February 15 2012 12:49 Hashbaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:06 Plansix wrote:
Is the MP3 up or going to be up?

Episode 31 mp3 is up at http://snd.sc/zKNraS. Enjoy!



A million internets to you good sir! Thank you!
Nihn'kas Neehn
Hashbaz
Profile Joined July 2010
United States340 Posts
February 15 2012 18:53 GMT
#3539
On February 15 2012 19:08 AlternativeEgo wrote:
Do anyone know where I can watch episode 30? I thought they had a break after 29 and then I get 31 without seeing 30. Can't find it in the twitch archives. It's like the lost episode.

FWIW, an mp3 of episode 30 is at http://soundcloud.com/ghanaccount/insidethegame-30.
ESPORTS prevails
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1601 Posts
February 15 2012 19:26 GMT
#3540
On February 15 2012 23:05 MrDudeMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 15:53 NoobSkills wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

You guys on Inside The Game really dropped the ball tonight when discussing the MLG PPV. You seemed just to go with the flow even while realizing that if this was to be the model it was done too quickly by MLG. They just showed the qualifiers for free and guessed based off that they might be able to bank $20 from a majority of viewers based off the hype from those qualifiers.

When discussing this new idea let’s compare it to the NFL. The games that are broadcasted on TV are essentially free when you consider that when you purchase cable you have access to everything and despite paying for cable if you were to price every show you had potential access to throughout the month that each show is worth less than a cent. With that in mind the NFL is still BIG business. The model allows for all parties to get what they want out of the deal. The NFL gets money by selling the rights to broadcast their game on your network. The network gets money by charging advertisers a fee for the slot during the game. The advertisers get a consideration by the viewers that when they are purchasing a certain product that their specific product is in consideration. And finally the viewers get to watch the NFL game. In the end everyone gets what they want out of the event. Everyone scratching everyone else’s back with money in some form.

In this scenario compared to MLG if one back isn’t scratched it is because they’re doing something wrong. They shouldn’t need extra money to survive. They all have potential for growth in this form as well. MLG creates this sick new Winter Arena. It entices more viewers. MLG can now command more money per event from their advertisers. Their advertisers can see that this thing they’re investing their money in is gaining more interest and their product is getting more recognition making their expense worth it. The viewer is now able to watch a WCG style event that is actually has the potential to product INSANE content.

Now, we move on to why MLG is not only taking a risk that is not worth it, but perhaps are just being greedy because they can be. This current model alienates a ton of viewers in a very limited market from viewing perhaps one of the best events of the year. When you alienate that amount of people even for one event, and even if you don’t actually use advertisers for that event, those advertisers can still view the stream numbers and back out of sponsoring future events based off a belief that Esports is trending down all because MLG wanted to make a quick buck today rather than invest in the future. MLG keeps making the argument that they are not a profitable company. A caller linked DJWheat to an article which was indeed written in 2009, but if it is a factual article from Fnatic then some inferences should be made from it. If indeed during the 2009 year MLG did generate 50 million dollars in revenue one should assume that the years proceeding 2009 they made more. Starcraft 2 was not out during the 2009 season and I believe was only in the latter part of 2010, but with Starcraft 2 came a fuck ton of new viewers. With their numbers continually growing per event being run MLG should have been able to secure more money from advertisers. If Dr. Pepper, Doritos, and the HorseGuy (centaur) thought it was worth paying a certain amount for X amount of viewers they should think that paying X + more for more viewers would be worth it as well. Now, if we infer that everything so far is true they now have even more than 50 million dollars in revenue in 2011. In 2011 they also ran the same amount of events as they did in 2010(1), but there was more money to be made in 2011 and yet they claim to be fueling it all into esports. They did in 2011 have a few extra programs going on mainly the online shows, but those shows should not have cost them much of the extra profit that was made in 2011. Now, again inferring that all of this is true there is money missing. The extra money obtained from sponsors by product of their advertisements being seen by more eyes. Where did it go? I don’t know.

I like to question the larger organizations in the classic way by asking are you bullshitting us? Is MLG really struggling despite obtaining more viewers at every event? If you only bring in 50 million dollars revenue and claim you have 50+ million in liabilities each year what is your biggest liability? Is it Sundance’s paycheck? How does a company struggle every year since inception and still exist? Why if you’re struggling would you hold an event with a format this expensive? Why when you have such an awesome tournament coming up would you change the format to one that has the highest possibility of alienating a vast majority of those who would have watched? If you are indeed fueling esports why not provide a balance sheet for me to ponder on? Perhaps I will spot that you’re paying too much for glue because that is what you must be sniffing if you think you will get even 20% of those who watched MLG Providence to pay $20 for a weekend event.

Now, if my entire argument about MLG being greedy was false. That means one of two things. They are pumping money back into Esports at the perfect rate and Sundance takes home his “fair” share every year the company itself however lives tournament to tournament with only a small cushion. Or. MLG is losing money by doing something wrong. Along the lines there is an issue with money where some side is getting too much or not enough. If MLG signed a 50 year deal with Dr. Pepper for $10,000 per year then they messed up. If MLG rents out their convention centers at $20 million per weekend then they are paying too much. Those are just extremes for the nitpickers out there. Either way MLG needs to trim more fat in the best way possible.

In closing though while I still think this move is a dick move by MLG I’m still fucking paying for what I think will be one of the best tournaments so far for SC2. You can’t beat these TOP ONLY tournaments. I will catch some Assembly, but it will probably be much later on when the weaker players have been weeded out and only during breaks from Winter Arena. I don’t want to support this MLG decision, but there aren’t any barcrafts near me so the rest of you need to take the reins.

1) I don’t know if the number of events in 2010 was equal to for a fact. I can’t find a listing of all the events in both the years, but I was relying on memory.
2) I know I use too many pronouns
3) The inference part is all about making sure that people realize there is potential they're being bullshitted by MLG and to show that the caller who was easily dismissed even though his latter points were completely mute had a valid point in bringing up that if revenue is 50 million and they claim they're pumping 50 million back into it do you really think their end product costs that much?
4) http://www.fnatic.com/scene/6582/mlg-50-million-in-revenue-this-year.html - link to supposed MLG revenue in 2009


It's not too hard to believe MLG is running on a deficit. They have been around for a very long time, but were no where near as popular as they are now (perhaps they were when they were on TV). The cost for doing what they do is very high, and ultimately their goal is to grow their business until the point where they no longer need to rely on sponsor money. I think the hosts on the show actually covered this topic really well, and were spot on in their analysis. The idea of a PPV model isnt necessarily a bad one, its just that this execution of a PPV model is horrible.


You need to take everything from that part into your thought process. Yes, I do believe that it is possible that they are running on a deficient, but with the information provided which again is all speculative it is hard to believe. They weren't as popular as they are now, but before the BOOM of SC2 they were bringing in 50 million in revenue. Even with the costs of running 6 LAN events a year you should not blow through 50 million. If you do then it isn't the viewers fault you are misusing your funds. Their goal is to be greedy from my standpoint. They don't only want to have the subscription, but the money from sponsors as well. And you are right PPV isn't terrible and has it's place at a movie theater or for the UFC who controls all of the major talents in MMA. If, bigger companies still through the process I mentioned in my thread can rely on sponsor money why can't MLG? There is no reason to get away from it because the model allows everyone at the table to benefit.
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