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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 04 2011 18:06 Dalavita wrote:
The thor thing puts in an ineteresting mechanic to mech TvP, since people are more likely to go ghosts now, it'll be an EMP vs Feedback battle again to save your thors, while making some thor timing pushes worse.
couldn't you just strike canon a building if you see HT in play to get rid of energy?
Wasting emp doesn't seem very intelligent.
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By the way, ghosts can cloak, snipe has longer range, and templars are still slower than Asian facial hair growth.
Yeah but feedbacking ghosts is much easier with observer giving you visionrange. Unless the terran scans the range advantage is useless.
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On May 04 2011 18:12 dump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:06 Dalavita wrote:
The thor thing puts in an ineteresting mechanic to mech TvP, since people are more likely to go ghosts now, it'll be an EMP vs Feedback battle again to save your thors, while making some thor timing pushes worse. That really, really isn't interesting to me. That's Counter-Strike, not Starcraft. By the way, ghosts can cloak, snipe has longer range, and templars are still slower than Asian facial hair growth.
And P got observers to pre-emptively snipe Ghosts. What is your point? Also, snipe? You EMP HTs, not snipe them...
And I don't get the Counter-Strike argument. It's micro like any other.
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On May 04 2011 17:59 Ziggitz wrote:
Everyone needs to stop and think for one second about how fucking stupid they sound when they presume that top zerg players haven't figured out to put their infestors in a separate control group. Infestors don't have an attack and there's no way to put them at an ideal distance like a moving ghosts nor do they have a giant deathball to hide behind with a small size that makes them almost impossible to focus fire.
On the contrary, they're fucking huge which causes them to push each other around and often closer to the enemy than you want them to be, meanwhile if you move them as a single group their size combined with the clumping means that as the front infestors get in range the back ones aren't and when the back ones are, the front infestors are frenching zealots. This is compounded by the fact that you need to move command them into range in order to land fungals precisely on moving targets without a delay which there is no clean or accurate way to do when you get past 4 - 5 infestors.
This is why Idra and Machine two top level pros who know a fuckton more than you guys consider it a buff, because there is no clean method of microing infestors anything like ghosts or templar have that is afforded by the interface and a slower movement speed allows them to actually be more precise with them.
how the would decreasing movespeed help this at all?
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On May 04 2011 18:13 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:06 Dalavita wrote:
The thor thing puts in an ineteresting mechanic to mech TvP, since people are more likely to go ghosts now, it'll be an EMP vs Feedback battle again to save your thors, while making some thor timing pushes worse. couldn't you just strike canon a building if you see HT in play to get rid of energy? Wasting emp doesn't seem very intelligent.
Depends on you if you want to use your strike cannons or not.
Without strike cannons Immortals are pretty damn good vs Thors.
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On May 04 2011 18:14 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:12 dump wrote:On May 04 2011 18:06 Dalavita wrote:
The thor thing puts in an ineteresting mechanic to mech TvP, since people are more likely to go ghosts now, it'll be an EMP vs Feedback battle again to save your thors, while making some thor timing pushes worse. That really, really isn't interesting to me. That's Counter-Strike, not Starcraft. By the way, ghosts can cloak, snipe has longer range, and templars are still slower than Asian facial hair growth. And PT got observers to pre-emptively snipe Ghosts. What is your point? Also, snipe? You EMP HTs, not snipe them... And I don't get the Counter-Strike argument. It's micro like any other.
EMP, snipe, whichever works.
Scan works just as well as having a pre-emptive observer, except you don't need to bring your command center to battle in order to do it. (Exaggeration, but you get my point.)
"Fastest click in the west" is micro, yeah, but it's the most primitive kind. There's a difference between microing an army, microing a unit in a clever way to maximize its effectiveness, and just... clicking.
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On May 04 2011 17:59 Ziggitz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Everyone needs to stop and think for one second about how fucking stupid they sound when they presume that top zerg players haven't figured out to put their infestors in a separate control group. Infestors don't have an attack and there's no way to put them at an ideal distance like a moving ghosts nor do they have a giant deathball to hide behind with a small size that makes them almost impossible to focus fire.
On the contrary, they're fucking huge which causes them to push each other around and often closer to the enemy than you want them to be, meanwhile if you move them as a single group their size combined with the clumping means that as the front infestors get in range the back ones aren't and when the back ones are, the front infestors are frenching zealots. This is compounded by the fact that you need to move command them into range in order to land fungals precisely on moving targets without a delay which there is no clean or accurate way to do when you get past 4 - 5 infestors.
This is why Idra and Machine two top level pros who know a fuckton more than you guys consider it a buff, because there is no clean method of microing infestors anything like ghosts or templar have that is afforded by the interface and a slower movement speed allows them to actually be more precise with them.
You need to move them into range which is going to be achieved more slowly than before. 2.25 is the same speed as zealots and marines, meaning that you can't chase down a stray group of zealots or marines, (minus stim) before they run back into range of colossi and siege tanks. It's basically forcing the zerg to engage on creep, (which no decent terran or protoss is really going to do or allow). The only 'good' thing about the speed nerf is that it encourages burrowed infestors which decent zergs would be doing anyway.
Change is completely unnecessary and, in no way, can the speed nerf be considered a buff.
- 0.25 speed is not going to make any significant different to the precision of infestor usage; it simply makes them more vulnerable.
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Energy on the Thor makes no sense. What the hell Blizzard?
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On May 04 2011 18:19 dump wrote:
EMP, snipe, whichever works.
Observers are there if you're lucky, but the Robo Bay is notoriously backed up (check on Liquipedia, they agree there too). And like the other guy said, scan works just as well as having a pre-emptive observer, except you don't need to bring your command center to battle in order to do it. (Exaggeration, but you get my point.)
"Fastest click in the west" is micro, yeah, but it's the most primitive kind. There's a difference between microing an army, microing a unit in a clever way to maximize its effectiveness, and just... clicking.
How is a unit fully under your control luck based in any way? Scan has the disadvantage of you actually having to know that his army is coming in for you to use it (and have the energy ready), quite a bit more luck based than using observers really. I won't diverge into another observers vs scan argument, so moving on.
Also, as far as fastest clicking goes, it's more about game sense and reading a situation fast rather than clicking fast, i.e should I go for EMP on the HTs to save my thors or should I EMP the immortals/gateway units, vs should I storm the army or feedback the ghosts, with the person with better scouting coming out on top.
As far as what your micro prefence is, meh. Marine splitting is pretty much also about being able to move and click, awp drag shot style.
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Yea, when someone finally found thor helpful at one matchup (tvp), Lets make the unit again totally useless. After this we can only use it on TvZ.
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Reducing the speed being a buff? Make their speed zero then so they will be like buildings when they spawn, then zerg will be truly OP ![[image loading]](http://www.forplay.bg/forums/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/facepalm1.gif)
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Blizzard has always wanted every game to be MMM vs colossus deathball, I don't see how these changes are a surprise to anyone.
They are, however, retarded. That I can't deny.
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On May 04 2011 18:25 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 18:19 dump wrote:
EMP, snipe, whichever works.
Observers are there if you're lucky, but the Robo Bay is notoriously backed up (check on Liquipedia, they agree there too). And like the other guy said, scan works just as well as having a pre-emptive observer, except you don't need to bring your command center to battle in order to do it. (Exaggeration, but you get my point.)
"Fastest click in the west" is micro, yeah, but it's the most primitive kind. There's a difference between microing an army, microing a unit in a clever way to maximize its effectiveness, and just... clicking. How is a unit fully under your control luck based in any way? Scan has the disadvantage of you actually having to know that his army is coming in for you to use it (and have the energy ready), quite a bit more luck based than using observers really. I won't diverge into another observers vs scan argument, so moving on. Also, as far as fastest clicking goes, it's more about game sense and reading a situation fast rather than clicking fast, i.e should I go for EMP on the HTs to save my thors or should I EMP the immortals/gateway units, vs should I storm the army or feedback the ghosts, with the person with better scouting coming out on top. As far as what your micro prefence is, meh. Marine splitting is pretty much also about being able to move and click, awp drag shot style.
Even if you're on the defensive, you almost always have some time to scan after the army arrives given even really good players like HuK will still let their templars lag behind slightly.
No scan? Really? Not even for a possible DT? Your opponent's going citadel tech after all.
I honestly almost never see someone storm an immortal when there's templar around. There are way fewer situations in which immortals are higher priority than templars, especially if you have ghosts -- since then you're likely to have more mineral heavy units as well.
Marine splitting isn't as binary. You do a half-assed job and you lose half of your marines. You do a good job and you keep a good number of marines.
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On May 04 2011 18:26 Sir_J wrote:Reducing the speed being a buff? Make their speed zero then so they will be like buildings when they spawn, then zerg will be truly OP
It's a buff to people who aren't paying attention.
In other words, it lowers the skill cap. Again.
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Please refer to Game 1 of scfOu versus Losira for the state of high level infestor control.
Not saying Blizzard should accomodate it.
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On May 04 2011 18:04 Kanaz wrote:
So now Thors will be feedbacked in TvP AND when you go mech in TvZ two fungals will kill 20marines + thors getting NP'ed and strikecannon the other ones lol.
Doesnt this mean mech will be less strong in tvz unless you strike cannon your own units before you move out?
Bad design that you actually have to use your strikecannon on your own units to be safe lol.
No, thors will still be the same in TvZ. By your logic you would have to strike cannon stuff now to burn the cooldown before engaging the zerg. I'm not terran, but how common is it to even research 250mm in TvZ?
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On May 04 2011 18:35 dump wrote:
Even if you're on the defensive, you almost always have some time to scan after the army arrives given even really good players like HuK will still let their templars lag behind slightly.
No scan? Really? Not even for a possible DT? Your opponent's going citadel tech after all.
I honestly almost never see someone storm an immortal when there's templar around. There are way fewer situations in which immortals are higher priority than immortals.
Marine splitting isn't as binary. You do a half-assed job and you lose half of your marines. You do a good job and you keep a good number of marines.
The problem with the scan is that you need to know the HTs and Observers are coming, with the observers on top of your army the HT can walk up and feedback your ghosts way before you even notice. The scan is basically a "I know he has an obs on top of my army, it's time to scan."
Also, in mech TvP storms wouldn't be as big of an issue as either immortals or feedback, so EMP on the Immortals would be a higher priority if your thors were low on energy.
And the same goes for the micro. If you split your HTs and spot the ghosts fast up you negate EMPs. If you stack up the HTs you lose. That goes for Storm/Feedback vs Terran.
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ah, Blizzard doing their usual revoke changes after changes again, suprised bunker time is still @ 40 and not back to 35. Clueless clowns really. What is wrong with thors??, basicly every protoss unit can beat them if used properly but you get like mc playing like a tool that game and then suddenly thors get nerfed.
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My mistake, i misread it as the upgraded was removed aswell. All good for TvZ then, but still a nerf for tvp. Will see how it works out on PTR.
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706 Posts
Well, it's good that people are voicing their opinions, but let's keep in mind that it's just temporary changes. For all we know, they might be reverted tomorrow.
But, in my opinion, Thor is fine as it is. No energy please. Well, perhaps Blizzard saw that MC fell at the hands of Thorzain and realized that such an outrageous thing should not be.
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EPT
