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Hello TL, I figured this topic didn't warrant a post in the strategy section so here I am.
I've noticed that many pro-tosses get stargates almost every game, as part of an opener or added after an expand to sprinkle air into their mix.
I personally have never used stargate units in a ladder game, they just feel so flimsy! Am I alone in this? I like the idea of toss air but each one feels gimmicky and situational wheras gateway and robo units stay buff and versatile all game long.
I have seen the power of void/phoenix harass against zerg early game, carriers/moms in super late fights, and niche uses for phoenix like lifting seiged tanks. I'm just not convinced.
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I don't think many pros get stargate every game.
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One of the main reasons pros get stargates (PvZ mostly) is to keep the zerg at bay by killing overlords and queens/drones whilst they get an expo and tech. Phoenix are a great harassment unit and can buy you a lot of time. Also if handled correctly they can cripple the opponent, most of the time the stargate is not used as a - this will kill my opponent it is used more of a stepping stone to something else.
This is of course not always true but it is a great way to take control of the map and be a little more secure.
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The idea is that the early game harras / pressure forces an enemy unit composition or does enough damage that makes you feel non flimsy.
I find Stargate openings very powerful vs Zerg, as well their only T1 unit that can shoot up is a Queen...
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I'm using a lot more stargate openings in PvZ because I feel it's the safest. You can't really die to mutas with a stargate out, and you can't die to roaches easily w/ voids out.
Double stargate in PvZ midgame is great (saw it on Whitera's stream, i've been using it in masters) just mass voids out of 2 stargates with gateway units, and you deny the zerg expos with your voids because their hydras are too slow to defend all of them. It's a great way to deny the zerg that crazy greedy economy they need to win if you can kill 1-2 hatches with 9 void rays
In PvT I generally don't like stargate openings unless they wall off w/ a tech lab in which case their asking to lose to void rays.
In PvP if you are sure your opponent. isn't straight up 4 gating you then you can go 3 gate star
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Try it yourself in ladder games, maybe you will be convinced.
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I've been trying to experiment with stargate transitions in PvP. Since nearly everyone just goes blind colossus I've been looking for some kind of carrier or void ray play that reduces the effectiveness of the colossus and just rolls them over if they don't make enough stalkers. The only problem is carriers build so slow, otherwise I'd build them every game since they're so badass.
Stargate definitely isn't the safest play, but if you do it right it can be effective. To be honest the biggest reason we don't see more stargate play in my opinion is that robo tech is just so much more powerful and versatile. Colossi and immortals are both really powerful and there isn't much that isn't countered my either of them, and you also get mobile detection and great scouting through observers, and harass potential through warp prisms. Neither stargate tech nor templar tech can really match robo in terms of overall usefulness.
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I think the problem with stargates is that unless you have a ragtag group consisting of an aging but grizzly veteran, an empathetic but strong woman, a super liberal archeologist and a 6 and a half foot tall black guy from space with a big laser stick, it's not really viable.
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I don't think stargate gate tech really give you anything in PvP. Unless you somehow conjure up a large amount of Voids, stalkers shred them up. Phoenixes really don't provide any dmg and once the other P gets some Colo out, I think theres no way you can defend that.
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I only get a Stargate after Gateway when I do a Forge expo on Shakuras & Tal'Darim. Any other opener will result in me getting Robo pretty much, or the occasional 4-gate in PvP (generally I go robo or blink stalker though). I don't like Stargate openings vs Terran in general as they can get cloaked Banshees and rape you due to lack of detection. I guess some stalker/void ray pressure on a walled off ramp can be OK-ish, but I rather go 1 gate expo into 3/4 gate robo. I do sometimes opt for a Stargate vs either Banshees or Ravens, Phoenix absolutely decimate them. Same goes for HTs though, I'm still not 100% sure what the best counter to those pathetic T all-ins is, but both work fine.
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On April 20 2011 06:51 leakingpear wrote:
I think the problem with stargates if that unless you have a ragtag group consisting of an aging but grizzly veteran, an empathetic but strong woman, a super liberal archeologist and a 6 and a half foot tall black guy from space with a big laser stick, it's not really viable.
Hahahaha, you, sir, win the internet :D
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On April 20 2011 06:51 leakingpear wrote:
I think the problem with stargates if that unless you have a ragtag group consisting of an aging but grizzly veteran, an empathetic but strong woman, a super liberal archeologist and a 6 and a half foot tall black guy from space with a big laser stick, it's not really viable.
I see what you did there. 
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On April 20 2011 06:28 MrJargon wrote:
One of the main reasons pros get stargates (PvZ mostly) is to keep the zerg at bay by killing overlords and queens/drones whilst they get an expo and tech. Phoenix are a great harassment unit and can buy you a lot of time. Also if handled correctly they can cripple the opponent, most of the time the stargate is not used as a - this will kill my opponent it is used more of a stepping stone to something else.
This is of course not always true but it is a great way to take control of the map and be a little more secure.
I actually disagree. The main reason I go stargate in PvZ is:
On April 20 2011 06:28 EternaL_9 wrote:
I'm using a lot more stargate openings in PvZ because I feel it's the safest. You can't really die to mutas with a stargate out, and you can't die to roaches easily w/ voids out.
Stargate is great for scouting and defense. The harass is just a bonus.
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So PvZ is the matchup for stargates?
Is phoenix a response to mutalisks? I find myself having trouble against zerg who harass with mutalisks, often it ends up with me just planting down cannons and pushing or grabbing blink and statying in base
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:51 leakingpear wrote:
I think the problem with stargates if that unless you have a ragtag group consisting of an aging but grizzly veteran, an empathetic but strong woman, a super liberal archeologist and a 6 and a half foot tall black guy from space with a big laser stick, it's not really viable.
I was going to close this thread, but you saved it. Give this man a star.
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The main main main main problem with stargate is you have no mobile detection. Any cloaked or burrowed anything just does way more damage than its supposed to.
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The only reasons I will ever drop a stargate are (in decreasing likelyhood):
1. The Terran walled off in a PvT
2. I felt like it
3. I want to fake them out when they scout and then I cancel
4. I am so far ahead that I can do it and win
The only one I am going to explain my reasoning behind is #1. If Terran walls, you can harass and potentially destroy his wall with void rays and not be in danger from any marines. If he has vikings, then it isn't your lucky day or he scouted your build ahead of time.
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Well, all the stargate units have the same counter (vikings, stalker, hydras), you can't really make a well balanced army based only on stargate units.
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On April 20 2011 07:15 KevinIX wrote:
Well, all the stargate units have the same counter (vikings, stalker, hydras), you can't really make a well balanced army based only on stargate units.
You can.
Phoenix barely beat Vikings 1 on 1. But you can't really go air vs. Terran because of marines and Protoss will mass Stalkers. BUT, against zerg, it's a different story. If you are good with micro, you can have your phoenix pick up the hydralisks and your void rays and carriers can focus down the corruptors and mutas. After that, you can wipe up the Zerg's bases. I remember a thread in the strategy section about PvZ 3 gate expo into carrier rush and air units. Can't seem to find it right now.
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Calgary25996 Posts
On April 20 2011 07:05 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 06:51 leakingpear wrote:
I think the problem with stargates if that unless you have a ragtag group consisting of an aging but grizzly veteran, an empathetic but strong woman, a super liberal archeologist and a 6 and a half foot tall black guy from space with a big laser stick, it's not really viable. I was going to close this thread, but you saved it. Give this man a star.
bahahahaha I was going to close it until I saw your blue heading and then I found this comment.
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EPT
