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United States12235 Posts
Grandmaster is the highest league in the SC2 ladder, consisting of the top 200 players in the region. Grandmaster League goes live 1 week after a ladder season begins.
Eligibility
Eligibility is determined over the opening week of a ladder season. Players who have the 200 highest MMR moving averages and who have bonus pools that are less than 90 (1 week's worth) will have spots reserved for them in Grandmaster League. However, you need to win a game after the league goes live in order to be promoted. An important clarification here (noxn asked this question yesterday and I got an answer today): if you have a slot reserved but someone else gets a higher MMR moving average than you before you play your promotion game, your slot will be taken!
Activity Rule
Grandmaster players remain in Grandmaster League until the end of the season. If your bonus pool accumulates to 180 (2 weeks' worth), you are automatically removed from Grandmaster League and a new player will take your spot. This is the only way to get removed from this league.
Please keep GM League discussion to this thread. GM League is currently live on all servers.
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Ah, can't play till friday... pretty sure I would have gotten in though (http://sc2ranks.com/us/372731/SCGenX) How long does it take for 270 bonus pool to accumulate? I'm guessing the first 200 people that get in will stay in there for a long long time.
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Good to know ^^ But, why would they keep everyone who is in GM in GM the whole season, even if they are not top 200.. kinda stupid..
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So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week?
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Off the top of my head, it's ~2 bonus points an hour? So it works out to roughly 270 in a week.
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Yea.. the rules have always seemed kinda iffy to me. The top 200 REAL players won't be in grandmasters due to the drop out conditions imho. You can drop down to diamond MMR and still be in grandmasters as long as you keep playing lol
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 09:01 Shadowed wrote:
Off the top of my head, it's ~2 bonus points an hour? So it works out to roughly 270 in a week.
1 per 112 minutes, 90 a week.
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Has this 2 week period been up yet?
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interesting, first thing i'm doing tomorrow when its announced is play a sc2 game so nobody can pass me :D. Yes the 2 week period ends tomorrow for NA
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 09:03 CrayonKing wrote:
Has this 2 week period been up yet?
On SEA and China it has. On the other servers it will happen tomorrow.
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On April 12 2011 08:59 GenesisX wrote:
Ah, can't play till friday... pretty sure I would have gotten in though (http://sc2ranks.com/us/372731/SCGenX) How long does it take for 270 bonus pool to accumulate? I'm guessing the first 200 people that get in will stay in there for a long long time.
Why wouldn't you just log in and surrender immediately just to get your spot?
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On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week?
I have the same question, please answer excalibur, thanks.
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...and im still bronze ( ._.)
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On April 12 2011 09:06 Bean54 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? I have the same question, please answer excalibur, thanks.
Its pretty obvious, no you cant,
they wont be removed unless their bonus pool exceeds this
so one could reason, if all of them are active, they'll all stay in
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week?
If all of the top 200 players who have been preselected all play their games right when the league goes live, they will stay in that league for the entire season regardless of performance, as long as they are able to keep their bonus pool below 270. Basically this is to showcase the top 200 players on the server but the activity requirement is there to keep the league from stagnating.
If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly.
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On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week?
This is true. In theory, any player that is good enough for GM should be able to place himself in these first two weeks - enough time to play a couple games at least - and since seasons should last much shorter than the first season, it shouldn't be hard for this "new top" to get into the GM on the third season.
IIRC, seasons are supposed to last for two or three months each now, but I'm not sure.
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On April 12 2011 09:08 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:06 Bean54 wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? I have the same question, please answer excalibur, thanks. Its pretty obvious, no you cant, they wont be removed unless their bonus pool exceeds this so one could reason, if all of them are active, they'll all stay in
So the top players in the world wouldnt be able to achieve grandmaster? That seems kinda dumb if they can't make it a moving league like the others. Thats basically the equivalent of a 2 week season with like a 3 month lockout period.
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Well, I think it's safe to assume no one that is that good will let their bonus pool get that big. Once the 200 are decided, I doubt no more than 10-20 will drop out during the season.
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A first glimpse of the GM league + new patch info (all bug fixes) as it has already been released on SEA. (plz dont direct embed the pic here, the site will die lol)
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=1168
My first thought - The Grandmaster icon looks way better then the masters icon.
My second thought - Wow even more hurdles for players if they want to get to the top of GM. For e.g if they ever fall out of GM and decide to start playing again, they have to wait a week to get promoted to GM(not sure about this). Then they lose all their points and have to start again climbing again from 200+. Not cool at all the "XP Decay" feels like too big of a obligation/commitment if you wanna maintain GM status.
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On April 12 2011 09:05 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:59 GenesisX wrote:
Ah, can't play till friday... pretty sure I would have gotten in though (http://sc2ranks.com/us/372731/SCGenX) How long does it take for 270 bonus pool to accumulate? I'm guessing the first 200 people that get in will stay in there for a long long time. Why wouldn't you just log in and surrender immediately just to get your spot?
:O. Theres an idea... when does it officially come out in NA?
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It seems really weird with it being locked in, unless each season becomes really short I see it only being a bad thing
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On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If all of the top 200 players who have been preselected all play their games right when the league goes live, they will stay in that league for the entire season regardless of performance, as long as they are able to keep their bonus pool below 270. Basically this is to showcase the top 200 players on the server but the activity requirement is there to keep the league from stagnating. If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly.
Ughh I hate that. So silly...
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 09:15 GenesisX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:05 Hrrrrm wrote:On April 12 2011 08:59 GenesisX wrote:
Ah, can't play till friday... pretty sure I would have gotten in though (http://sc2ranks.com/us/372731/SCGenX) How long does it take for 270 bonus pool to accumulate? I'm guessing the first 200 people that get in will stay in there for a long long time. Why wouldn't you just log in and surrender immediately just to get your spot? :O. Theres an idea... when does it officially come out in NA?
I'm looking at these players' match histories and they all have a win today. You may have to play and win, and not just play a single game and get promoted regardless of the result. I've clarified the OP to this effect.
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Don't look at is as being the top 200 players of Season 2. Look at it as being the top 200 players of season 1.
These are the players who finished the best after a season and it gives us a way to track their progress in the next season.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
As long as the seasons are much shorter from now on (two months) it wouldn't be bad having the top 200 fixed. It is not meant to be a measure of absolute skill but more as a display of the top players. So, yeah, as long as the seasons remain short and crisp, this should be pretty cool.
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I wonder if everyone in GM league is given the same consistent MMR, so people cant just slack off at the bottom of GM league and lower their MMR to win games against mid masters. It would lower their bonus pool so they dont get kicked out.
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So this is going up tonight?
Gonna be neat to check out, have something else for players to follow, a consolidated league for players that spectators like to watch.
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God it's so stupid that you can't move from Masters to GM. So this means that because I couldn't play for 3 weeks I don't get in to top200 for 3 months?
wut?
Oh wait, you can still just play them anyway because of MMR right? like if a masters player ends up with the highest MMR in the region he'll be playing the top of GM all the time, right?
I don't understand the Blizzard ladder system at all  Points that don't matter, leagues that don't matter, laddering takes forever, and the points that do matter are hidden and have to be figured out independently..
Oh well, as long as this doesn't prevent players from playing on multiple servers or playing the best if they are outside of GM I guess it's alright..Just kind of pointless lol
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Inactivity being the only way to remove you from GM league seems a bit odd to me... why not just update the top 200 real time..
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On April 12 2011 09:10 Bean54 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:08 arb wrote:On April 12 2011 09:06 Bean54 wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? I have the same question, please answer excalibur, thanks. Its pretty obvious, no you cant, they wont be removed unless their bonus pool exceeds this so one could reason, if all of them are active, they'll all stay in So the top players in the world wouldnt be able to achieve grandmaster? That seems kinda dumb if they can't make it a moving league like the others. Thats basically the equivalent of a 2 week season with like a 3 month lockout period.
What are you talking about? The top players in the world will be the ones IN grandmaster.
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On April 12 2011 09:10 Bean54 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:08 arb wrote:On April 12 2011 09:06 Bean54 wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? I have the same question, please answer excalibur, thanks. Its pretty obvious, no you cant, they wont be removed unless their bonus pool exceeds this so one could reason, if all of them are active, they'll all stay in So the top players in the world wouldnt be able to achieve grandmaster? That seems kinda dumb if they can't make it a moving league like the others. Thats basically the equivalent of a 2 week season with like a 3 month lockout period.
Except the "season" lasted almost eight months, and started when the game came.
Basically, if you want to achieve GM, you'll have to play well so you can get into it next season.
Don't worry, in theory seasons should be much shorter now.
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wow seems like the GM league should fluctuate with the top200 list... seems rather unfair
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 09:22 Sanguinarius wrote:
I wonder if everyone in GM league is given the same consistent MMR, so people cant just slack off at the bottom of GM league and lower their MMR to win games against mid masters. It would lower their bonus pool so they dont get kicked out.
My guess would be (and I know SDream believes this to be the case) that GM just has a really high point offset, so that if you tank your MMR, your adjusted points will be so much higher than your MMR that you will always be favored, making it harder to spend your bonus pool and therefore remain active. I presume Blizzard has already thought of this, but who knows, maybe we'll see at least one GM player experiment with this and see if this is a possible way to cheat the system =)
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On April 12 2011 09:20 MCDayC wrote:
As long as the seasons are much shorter from now on (two months) it wouldn't be bad having the top 200 fixed. It is not meant to be a measure of absolute skill but more as a display of the top players. So, yeah, as long as the seasons remain short and crisp, this should be pretty cool.
Er yea but what if those aren't the top players anymore?
A lot can change in 2-3 months.
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On April 12 2011 09:02 tnud wrote:
Yea.. the rules have always seemed kinda iffy to me. The top 200 REAL players won't be in grandmasters due to the drop out conditions imho. You can drop down to diamond MMR and still be in grandmasters as long as you keep playing lol
You sure thats how it works? would a player not get demoted of he keeps losing to people with a lower MMR? I Though the drop out conditions where to make sure the grandmasters are active, not in place so much as to guarantee there placement as long as they keep playing.
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I was afraid it was going to be like this when I asked excalibur. I still think it's silly that it doesn't let you get promoted/demoted, because that would at least add more competition. People at the top of the ladder, but not quite GM wouldn't be disappointed and people at the bottom of GM would want to keep improving to maintain their position.
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Think of it as a hall of fame and not an active league imo.
This GM league is the hall of fame for best performers of season 1. Those who get top 200 MMR during season 2 will get enshinred in season 3.
anyway, is there a point cut/subtraction from master to grandmaster? and vice versa if you get dropped from grandmaster to master
on related note
My second thought - Wow even more hurdles for players if they want to get to the top of GM. For e.g if they ever fall out of GM and decide to start playing again, they have to wait a week to get promoted to GM(not sure about this). Then they lose all their points and have to start again climbing again from 200+. Not cool at all the "XP Decay" feels like too big of a obligation/commitment if you wanna maintain GM status
I believe the first point is not true. The only way you can be repromoted is to wait until someone drops out and your bonus pool to be below the limit. The 2nd point is probably related to my question above.
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On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly.
What exactly is the problem with having a fluctuating bottom half of the league?
For the most part, the general public is only going to be focused on the top half of the league to see who the "best players" are. Besides the players themselves, who is going to care if somebody is ranked 198 or 157? In my opinion people would pay more attention to the bottom half of the league if you had to fight to survive. It would be far more interesting to me to track a player to see if he remained in the top 200, rather then vacillating between rank 180 and 200.
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I think the reason they are locking the top 200, is similar to the WC3 season ladder where they had a ladder exclusivly for the top 100 players. In addition they also invited a few good players to this exclusive ladder who might not have been that active on the ladder.
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so if a player gets a new account and is half decent with being mid master on the old account the mmr fluctuation will get him into grandmaster (just remember how many new accounts appeared when master league was introduced) and all he has to do is stay active and even if the mmr drops to the real skill level of this player he will remain there
i just checked sc2ranks come and discovered players with 40% and even lower win percentage being into grandmaster and they will remain there unless they go inactive - pretty hilarious if you ask me
if this league should reflect the best players in the world then it definitely should constantly promote/demote instead of being tricked
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On April 12 2011 09:41 Alphasquad wrote:
so if a player gets a new account and is half decent with being mid master on the old account the mmr fluctuation will get him into grandmaster (just remember how many new accounts appeared when master league was introduced) and all he has to do is stay active and even if the mmr drops to the real skill level of this player he will remain there
i just checked sc2ranks come and discovered players with 40% and even lower win percentage being into grandmaster and they will remain there unless they go inactive - pretty hilarious if you ask me
SEA has a much smaller playerbase, keep that in mind.
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United States12235 Posts
Oh looks like they changed it from 180/270 to 90/180. I'll make the edit.
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On April 12 2011 09:42 Excalibur_Z wrote:Oh looks like they changed it from 180/270 to 90/180. I'll make the edit.
A bit better at least... Oh well it will be a nice list for sure.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 09:40 Stosh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly. What exactly is the problem with having a fluctuating bottom half of the league? For the most part, the general public is only going to be focused on the top half of the league to see who the "best players" are. Besides the players themselves, who is going to care if somebody is ranked 198 or 157? In my opinion people would pay more attention to the bottom half of the league if you had to fight to survive. It would be far more interesting to me to track a player to see if he remained in the top 200, rather then vacillating between rank 180 and 200.
When I say "fluctuating constantly" I mean constantly. Like, the person you see at #200 may not be the person who's there 5 minutes later. That would be enough change to get confusing and make it difficult to keep track of who is actually in GM. I think that might be what they were trying to sidestep by simply locking the league and adding the activity requirement.
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On April 12 2011 09:42 Flashback- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:41 Alphasquad wrote:
so if a player gets a new account and is half decent with being mid master on the old account the mmr fluctuation will get him into grandmaster (just remember how many new accounts appeared when master league was introduced) and all he has to do is stay active and even if the mmr drops to the real skill level of this player he will remain there
i just checked sc2ranks come and discovered players with 40% and even lower win percentage being into grandmaster and they will remain there unless they go inactive - pretty hilarious if you ask me
SEA has a much smaller playerbase, keep that in mind.
sure i know but i guess there will be more than 200 players with 50% or higher win percentage
come one - top200 players with 40% win
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Shouldn't someone be able to get demoted for poor performance, and not just bonus pool? It would make sense that the bonus pool would be an addition to the regular league features.
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that goes back to the same question then of what to do with fluctuating bottom half players as excalibur discussed
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On April 12 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I think that might be what they were trying to sidestep by simply locking the league and adding the activity requirement.
I agree as far as you go with this, but as for the question of why they'd care about the list changing constantly:
I think they envision the grandmaster league as a focus for attention for people who play the game casually but have taken an interest in top level play, so, for example, a player who follows the pro scene might regularly sign on to see how their favorite players in the grandmaster league are doing with respect to others in the league.
Locking the list of names makes this more appealing, because you aren't going to scratch your head wondering if the player that you were following will be there now, as long as they're playing.
At some level, MMR is a shaky enough measure of skill that the "best 200" has a certain degree of arbitrariness to it anyway, so locking the league won't really reduce the interest that much. Yes, it's a snapshot of the top 200 MMR players as of tonight, or whenever, but really for the rest of the season they're going to be 200 excellent players whose movements up or down in the league will hopefully have interest for the rest of the community.
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On April 12 2011 09:47 Terin wrote:
Shouldn't someone be able to get demoted for poor performance, and not just bonus pool? It would make sense that the bonus pool would be an addition to the regular league features.
Poor performance in the grandmaster league will simply result in their sinking to the bottom of the list. I'm not sure whether there's really that effective a semantic difference between being #200 in the GM league and being demoted to master league. Bottom is still the bottom.
"But what about a new up-and-coming player who's suddenly doing well?" They'll be able to make it in in season 3, and I gather that season 2 will be a lot shorter than season 1 for exactly this reason.
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interesting, i hope spots for grandmasters are truly justified.
and i hope we dont see multiple ppl with gm accounts.
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and this is going live on NA/LA in how many hours?
and about having to win a game to get in (even if ure eligible with your mmr) is true?
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hm, im #100 due to points in eu with like 53,3%... hope ill make it
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On April 12 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:40 Stosh wrote:On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly. What exactly is the problem with having a fluctuating bottom half of the league? For the most part, the general public is only going to be focused on the top half of the league to see who the "best players" are. Besides the players themselves, who is going to care if somebody is ranked 198 or 157? In my opinion people would pay more attention to the bottom half of the league if you had to fight to survive. It would be far more interesting to me to track a player to see if he remained in the top 200, rather then vacillating between rank 180 and 200. When I say "fluctuating constantly" I mean constantly. Like, the person you see at #200 may not be the person who's there 5 minutes later. That would be enough change to get confusing and make it difficult to keep track of who is actually in GM. I think that might be what they were trying to sidestep by simply locking the league and adding the activity requirement.
That doesn't really matter, as was said people are especially interested in the top top players (top 50 or 100)and besides if it was fluid, it would encourage alot of battling for placement which i think is good for the competitive scene.
In regards to it being confusing or hard to keep track of, thats the whole point of introducing the real time grandmaster list in-game. You can always just check from your profile whos moved into the top 200 or out of it.
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On April 12 2011 09:59 PhiliBiRD wrote:
interesting, i hope spots for grandmasters are truly justified.
and i hope we dont see multiple ppl with gm accounts.
you will see 200 ppl with gm accounts. oO
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You technically do get punished for poor performance, although not very hard - bonus pool does not decrease with losses, so if you lost everything for 2 weeks you'd be out.
(I'm pretty sure even I could manage 1 win per 2 weeks in GM league, and I'm terrible >_>)
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On April 12 2011 10:01 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:59 PhiliBiRD wrote:
interesting, i hope spots for grandmasters are truly justified.
and i hope we dont see multiple ppl with gm accounts. you will see 200 ppl with gm accounts. oO
he probably meant ppl with multiple gm accounts 
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On April 12 2011 09:46 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:42 Flashback- wrote:On April 12 2011 09:41 Alphasquad wrote:
so if a player gets a new account and is half decent with being mid master on the old account the mmr fluctuation will get him into grandmaster (just remember how many new accounts appeared when master league was introduced) and all he has to do is stay active and even if the mmr drops to the real skill level of this player he will remain there
i just checked sc2ranks come and discovered players with 40% and even lower win percentage being into grandmaster and they will remain there unless they go inactive - pretty hilarious if you ask me
SEA has a much smaller playerbase, keep that in mind. sure i know but i guess there will be more than 200 players with 50% or higher win percentage come one - top200 players with 40% win
What exactly is wrong with 40% win? Why would that disqualify a player from Grandmasters? How do people STILL not understand how matchmaking works???
Let's say SEA has two players that are far and away BETTER than everyone else in the region. One player is substantially better than the other; let's say he wins 70% of their matchups. Guy #2 only wins 30% of those games, but of course he will win 90%+ of his games against everyone else. But because he's so good and Guy #1 is closer to his skill than anyone else, the ladder will try and match them up together whenever possible. In this situation, Guy #2 might well have an overall 40% win rate despite being quite clearly the second best player in the entire region.
Scale that up, and that's why (and how) these players are in Grandmasters. If you STILL don't understand it you probably can't contribute to the thread - Excalibur_Z has written some excellent stuff on matchmaking in the past that may help, go look there.
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On April 12 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:40 Stosh wrote:On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly. What exactly is the problem with having a fluctuating bottom half of the league? For the most part, the general public is only going to be focused on the top half of the league to see who the "best players" are. Besides the players themselves, who is going to care if somebody is ranked 198 or 157? In my opinion people would pay more attention to the bottom half of the league if you had to fight to survive. It would be far more interesting to me to track a player to see if he remained in the top 200, rather then vacillating between rank 180 and 200. When I say "fluctuating constantly" I mean constantly. Like, the person you see at #200 may not be the person who's there 5 minutes later. That would be enough change to get confusing and make it difficult to keep track of who is actually in GM. I think that might be what they were trying to sidestep by simply locking the league and adding the activity requirement.
Also visually, can you imagine the nightmare that would be. Every few games you see promoted/demoted from GM -> M.
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I think that locking the top 200 is pretty dumb.
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On April 12 2011 10:03 kzn wrote:
You technically do get punished for poor performance, although not very hard - bonus pool does not decrease with losses, so if you lost everything for 2 weeks you'd be out.
(I'm pretty sure even I could manage 1 win per 2 weeks in GM league, and I'm terrible >_>)
This is just conjecture, but if you are really doing that poorly, then your displayed ranking (of GM) will be much higher than the MMR of your opponent (mid masters say) such that your win will only get you 1 or 2 points.
If this is the case, then as your MMR gets lower and you continue to face lower quality opponents, at some point it might actually become hard to use up all of your bonus pool such that it does actually go over the threshold.
I don't know if that will happen though. We'll see soon enough I guess.
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Such a weird, convoluted system. It's so weird that performance in the first two weeks of the season is the only thing that matters. I understand they are trying to keep it stable, but if it's just taking a snapshot of a very unstable system then it's meaningless anyways. Why not let it work off a moving points average, or expand it to include more players (1-2k) so that the top spots are more stable?
The more I think about it the stupider this league sounds to me.
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On April 12 2011 10:13 Shadowed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:40 Stosh wrote:On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly. What exactly is the problem with having a fluctuating bottom half of the league? For the most part, the general public is only going to be focused on the top half of the league to see who the "best players" are. Besides the players themselves, who is going to care if somebody is ranked 198 or 157? In my opinion people would pay more attention to the bottom half of the league if you had to fight to survive. It would be far more interesting to me to track a player to see if he remained in the top 200, rather then vacillating between rank 180 and 200. When I say "fluctuating constantly" I mean constantly. Like, the person you see at #200 may not be the person who's there 5 minutes later. That would be enough change to get confusing and make it difficult to keep track of who is actually in GM. I think that might be what they were trying to sidestep by simply locking the league and adding the activity requirement. Also visually, can you imagine the nightmare that would be. Every few games you see promoted/demoted from GM -> M.
Yes, but they still could have made it so that it reevaluates the Grandmaster league every couple weeks or so. That way it wouldn't fluctuate so often and the league wouldn't be so set in stone.
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I belive MMR didn't reset from last season so I don't see why people are complaining about not having enough time to get into the top 200. Thats why some people were only losing 1 point for a lost and other people losing a lot more (12 to 16 usually?) when season 2 began.
The first season last for ever so the top 200 should be pretty acurate.
Am I missing something or what?
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On April 12 2011 09:46 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:42 Flashback- wrote:On April 12 2011 09:41 Alphasquad wrote:
so if a player gets a new account and is half decent with being mid master on the old account the mmr fluctuation will get him into grandmaster (just remember how many new accounts appeared when master league was introduced) and all he has to do is stay active and even if the mmr drops to the real skill level of this player he will remain there
i just checked sc2ranks come and discovered players with 40% and even lower win percentage being into grandmaster and they will remain there unless they go inactive - pretty hilarious if you ask me
SEA has a much smaller playerbase, keep that in mind. sure i know but i guess there will be more than 200 players with 50% or higher win percentage come one - top200 players with 40% win
It's possible he deliberately tanked some games at the start of the season to temporarily drop his MMR and rack up points a bit faster.
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Perhaps they chose 2 weeks for this first grandmaster league because they plan to re-evaluate the grandmaster league every so often. If they re-evaluated the grandmaster every 2 weeks it would avoid a constantly changing league but also allow legitimately top players to not be left out in the cold if they missed the initial 2 week window. Hopefully they do something like this, I think a rather stagnant grandmaster league for 3 months would be awful.
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On April 12 2011 10:25 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:46 Alphasquad wrote:On April 12 2011 09:42 Flashback- wrote:On April 12 2011 09:41 Alphasquad wrote:
so if a player gets a new account and is half decent with being mid master on the old account the mmr fluctuation will get him into grandmaster (just remember how many new accounts appeared when master league was introduced) and all he has to do is stay active and even if the mmr drops to the real skill level of this player he will remain there
i just checked sc2ranks come and discovered players with 40% and even lower win percentage being into grandmaster and they will remain there unless they go inactive - pretty hilarious if you ask me
SEA has a much smaller playerbase, keep that in mind. sure i know but i guess there will be more than 200 players with 50% or higher win percentage come one - top200 players with 40% win It's possible he deliberately tanked some games at the start of the season to temporarily drop his MMR and rack up points a bit faster.
It shouldn't be surprising at all.
If your MMR is fairly high, every game you play is going to be against the top of the ladder, especially given how much more active everyone is for the start of the season. Assuming you were 'evenly' placed by MMR before and getting a 50% winrate, this can easily tip you down slightly below that.
People don't have the buffer of wins that they got from climbing up ranks anymore, so master league winrates are going to be, by average, about 50%. Some above, some below.
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I wonder how will this work for LAT Server. There are only ~180 masters right now.
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On April 12 2011 09:00 MacroKing wrote:
Good to know ^^ But, why would they keep everyone who is in GM in GM the whole season, even if they are not top 200.. kinda stupid..
yep, makes no sense whatsoever.
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I think there is some confusion in this thread with people claiming you could stay indefinitely in the GM (for the duration of the season) regardless of performance.
This has been pointed out but I feel it should be re-iterated: remember that since you are in the GM, your MMR is very high, and it will be very hard to spend your bonus pool against lower tier opponents. This means you pretty much *have* to get wins against other GM players, or you will get kicked out.
In effect, the bonus pool requirement enforces both activity and performance constraints. Yes, it might be an inaccurate gauge of the true top 200 once you get to the bottom 50 or 100 players, but for reasons mentioned earlier in this thread, it might be favorable to maintain a non-volatile league.
I think people underestimate just how hard it will be to spend the bonus pool at that level of play and still not be very good.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 10:41 whalebot wrote:
I wonder how will this work for LAT Server. There are only ~180 masters right now.
The dissolution of the Master league, maybe? =)
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wouldn't that just mean that the top 200 gets into the GM league, and all the other leagues "move up", so to balance it out again it would promote a lot of people to masters, fill up diamond with some plats, etc untill the correct league distribution is aquired.
Just my guess, but it's certainly a weird situation for a server to be in.
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Thanks for the information excal. I was going to go on an all-night ladder run and try to somehow get into GM. 0-3 so far. Guess that's a no for me. -_-;;
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i really dont understand why blizzard do these retarded things.. how can they honestly sit there and come to an agreement that after 2 weeks the top 200 players will be grandmasters and will remain there forever unless they go inactive is a good idea
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On April 12 2011 10:57 Knutzi wrote:
i really dont understand why blizzard do these retarded things.. how can they honestly sit there and come to an agreement that after 2 weeks the top 200 players will be grandmasters and will remain there forever unless they go inactive is a good idea
It's not two weeks. They considered the entire of season 1 also.
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On April 12 2011 10:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 10:41 whalebot wrote:
I wonder how will this work for LAT Server. There are only ~180 masters right now. The dissolution of the Master league, maybe? =)
Diamond level Grand Master!
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On April 12 2011 10:21 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
Such a weird, convoluted system. It's so weird that performance in the first two weeks of the season is the only thing that matters.
Since MMR didn't get reset, all the season 1 performance factors into it also. The only reason to have a couple of weeks at the start of Season 2 is to find out who's active for the new season.
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On April 12 2011 10:59 Buruguduy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 10:57 Knutzi wrote:
i really dont understand why blizzard do these retarded things.. how can they honestly sit there and come to an agreement that after 2 weeks the top 200 players will be grandmasters and will remain there forever unless they go inactive is a good idea It's not two weeks. They considered the entire of season 1 also.
It's because Excalibur Z said that eligibility was determined by performance in the first 2 weeks of season 2 and mentioned a moving average. I assumed he meant that eligibility was determined by a player's MMR average over the first 2 weeks of season 2. So depending upon how volatile MMR is, that means that performance in season 2 so far is relatively more important than performance in season 1. Maybe other people assumed the same as me.
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Total design by committee. Some people wanted a top 200 of the previous season, some wanted a ranking of the best currently active players... so we get both...kinda.
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On April 12 2011 10:57 Knutzi wrote:
i really dont understand why blizzard do these retarded things.. how can they honestly sit there and come to an agreement that after 2 weeks the top 200 players will be grandmasters and will remain there forever unless they go inactive is a good idea
It's not "forever", no one even knows the length of the new season. It could be Two months for all we know. I think there will be more movement than people think. Maybe not swaps of 10-15 players a day but, I can see 10-15 new people a week making their way in once this thing get's going.
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when does the patch go live in NA?
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Thanks for all the info, Excalibur_Z - this info help us out a lot over at sc2replayed!
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I wish they would add a buffer for the MMR cap (per two week or so). If an aspiring player's MMR becomes a lot higher than a current Grand Master player, he should be replaced.
The current approach just seems to negate aspiring players advancement/promotion.
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So dumb that you can get in top 200 and then lose 90% of your games for the rest of the season and remain in GM league.
Really doesn't make any sense at all.
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On April 12 2011 11:21 -orb- wrote:
So dumb that you can get in top 200 and then lose 90% of your games for the rest of the season and remain in GM league.
Really doesn't make any sense at all.
you would have to play a lot of games at a 10% win rate to spend your bonus pool fast enough, while on paper I do not like how easy it looks for a player to stay in the league it will be interesting to see how much wins vs loss' a player will have to maintain to spend there bonus pool fast enough.
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it does make sense! that way, when the season is over you're probably goin down to diamond or plat..
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On April 12 2011 11:28 Naughty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 11:21 -orb- wrote:
So dumb that you can get in top 200 and then lose 90% of your games for the rest of the season and remain in GM league.
Really doesn't make any sense at all. you would have to play a lot of games at a 10% win rate to spend your bonus pool fast enough, while on paper I do not like how easy it looks for a player to stay in the league it will be interesting to see how much wins vs loss' a player will have to maintain to spend there bonus pool fast enough.
Pretty sure you can go 2-18 in a couple days and still have a 0 bonus pool, I agree with orb.
Just because I was on vacation for the first week that the patch came out, I won't be in the top 200 tomorrow, and won't be in GM League till next season
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Russian Federation484 Posts
What they actually needed to do is to make a league that draws top 0.1%-0.5% of players, enforce a bonus pool rule to demote inactive players and get rid of divisions there.
And that's it.
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bonus pool is only used up only if you win right? so if you lose games for 2 weeks straight and you're bonus pool gets over the limit you get kicked out LOL
whole point of grandmaster is for the pros to be init so people can actually follow their progress w/o the need for sc2ranks, so that even the public people can be attached to players more easily. And it makes the first 2 weeks of each season more competitive and fun for the pros
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I can't wait to see diamond guys having GM status on LA server, must stalk them and see if they can ever win any points!
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Russian Federation484 Posts
On April 12 2011 12:46 SDream wrote:
I can't wait to see diamond guys having GM status on LA server, must stalk them and see if they can ever win any points!
It's not like being in GM somehow changes your matchmaking and your MMR, rite?
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On April 12 2011 12:47 chuDr3t4 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 12:46 SDream wrote:
I can't wait to see diamond guys having GM status on LA server, must stalk them and see if they can ever win any points! It's not like being in GM somehow changes your matchmaking and your MMR, rite?
Do you know the bronze "bug"? I am talking about something similar happening to them if GM league has too high offsets.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
On April 12 2011 12:52 SDream wrote:
Do you know the bronze "bug"? I am talking about something similar happening to them if GM league has too high offsets.
Bronze zero anomaly? I thought that was fixed in 1.3.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
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Im sure changes will be made after the first season, I think this is more of a trial run than anything. I think maybe they should have players swap out on a weekly basis based on performance.
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On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If all of the top 200 players who have been preselected all play their games right when the league goes live, they will stay in that league for the entire season regardless of performance, as long as they are able to keep their bonus pool below 270. Basically this is to showcase the top 200 players on the server but the activity requirement is there to keep the league from stagnating. If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly.
Exactly.... Why is that bad??? It should have lower-bound mmr "cutoff" equal to the 200th person's mmr or slightly above because mmr's have potential to be volatile
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How would matchmaking work? Since you're in GM, there's only 200 people in your league.
Do you play Master's then? That's pretty lousy :x
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On April 12 2011 13:12 Torte de Lini wrote:
How would matchmaking work? Since you're in GM, there's only 200 people in your league.
Do you play Master's then? That's pretty lousy :x
The same way it works now: you get matched against anyone with your MMR who's looking for a game. Leagues don't enter into it.
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Wow thats so dumb. I thought I finally had something to fight for again and now i realize that this league means nothing...I think blizzard has something against demoting people....
I feel bad for the REAL top 200 that can't get in once its locked...
edit: and to those of you guys that don't understand...its ridiculously easy to spend bonus pool. You can lose 20 games, your mmr will be BAD and you can win so easily.
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On April 12 2011 11:21 -orb- wrote:
So dumb that you can get in top 200 and then lose 90% of your games for the rest of the season and remain in GM league.
Really doesn't make any sense at all.
After thinking this through, I don't think this is possible.
If you lose more than 50% of your games, your MMR will fall over time. As soon as it falls far below your displayed rating, you're going to be gaining like 1-2 points per win. If the system works consistently, and you kept losing more than 50% of your games your MMR would eventually fall so low that you'd get 0 points for wins and like -17 for a loss to MC himself - at that point, almost no matter what you do you couldn't blow your bonus pool fast enough to stay in the league.
It really turns on how MMR interacts with displayed rating in GM leagues - if GM leagues start at 0 and there's no modifier applied to the MMR to determine "desired" displayed rating, you pretty much will have to actually try to fall out of GM league, but if it starts at, say, 4000 or something it would be a lot harder to stay there.
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It's interesting seeing the top of the GM rankings so far. Fruitdealer appears to be smashing things up with an account on on the Chinese server, and mOOnGLaDe is rocking a 94% win rate.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/grandmaster
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On April 12 2011 13:16 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 11:21 -orb- wrote:
So dumb that you can get in top 200 and then lose 90% of your games for the rest of the season and remain in GM league.
Really doesn't make any sense at all. After thinking this through, I don't think this is possible. If you lose more than 50% of your games, your MMR will fall over time. As soon as it falls far below your displayed rating, you're going to be gaining like 1-2 points per win. If the system works consistently, and you kept losing more than 50% of your games your MMR would eventually fall so low that you'd get 0 points for wins and like -17 for a loss to MC himself - at that point, almost no matter what you do you couldn't blow your bonus pool fast enough to stay in the league. It really turns on how MMR interacts with displayed rating in GM leagues - if GM leagues start at 0 and there's no modifier applied to the MMR to determine "desired" displayed rating, you pretty much will have to actually try to fall out of GM league, but if it starts at, say, 4000 or something it would be a lot harder to stay there.
This guy knows his stuff 
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On April 12 2011 13:15 ReketSomething wrote:
I feel bad for the REAL top 200 that can't get in once its locked...
I'm not sure why people are complaining about this, when GSL picks people for Code S & Code A and then they keep that status for a season even when they lose. The idea for GSL is that that season's Code S get to fight it out for the season -- some Code A guy who does really well can't knock a Code S competitor out until a new season starts.
Grandmaster league is exactly the same thing -- the best people on a certain day become the league for the next season. Someone below them who gets a lot better will just be in the league the following season.
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on average 20-25 ppl per league are inactive im guessing GM will fluctuate 50 ppl over time
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On April 12 2011 13:24 alphaducky wrote:
How long are season? :/
It's not clear, but I think I remember them saying that they were figuring a few months. The first season was extremely long because they were working on getting the ladder features they needed for grandmaster league implemented.
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Interesting... only one protoss in the top 10 of grandmasters O_O
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Official ladders have never and will never matter. This has always been true for every RTS that's been out. It's great that they added grandmaster league for the casuals who want to compete, but for anyone who is interested in being a pro, tournaments will always be the arena to sort out who's the best.
Ladder is just a grind fest. It's great to use as a tool to practice builds and maybe meet new people, but the guy who is #1 on the ladder is very rarely (never?) the #1 player in the region.
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On April 12 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:40 Stosh wrote:On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly. What exactly is the problem with having a fluctuating bottom half of the league? For the most part, the general public is only going to be focused on the top half of the league to see who the "best players" are. Besides the players themselves, who is going to care if somebody is ranked 198 or 157? In my opinion people would pay more attention to the bottom half of the league if you had to fight to survive. It would be far more interesting to me to track a player to see if he remained in the top 200, rather then vacillating between rank 180 and 200. When I say "fluctuating constantly" I mean constantly. Like, the person you see at #200 may not be the person who's there 5 minutes later. That would be enough change to get confusing and make it difficult to keep track of who is actually in GM. I think that might be what they were trying to sidestep by simply locking the league and adding the activity requirement.
Personally, I don't see that as a real problem. But even if it is, it would be easily circumvented by using a moving average of MMR over the last n games to determine rank. Or use some sort of flexible threshold, e.g., you only get kicked out if you fall below rank 250 MMR. I would much prefer to see a dynamic GM league, otherwise it just seems like a first come first served list.
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I think it would be cool if they updated Gm league once a week like they did with the top 200 list on blizz website. That way people like me who fluctuate from around top 170-250 could have some glory. I've been having a bad week and probably wont get into GM, next season so far away staying motivated to play might be hard.... But at the same time, only people in GM are those that deserve it, so I accept my fate.
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On April 12 2011 14:21 Kelethius wrote:
But at the same time, only people in GM are those that deserve it, so I accept my fate.
Not essentially. The No.1 guy may not be available to play tomorrow when GM is up. In that case, the No.201 guy can take his place and when the No.1 guy comes back the day after there will be no more slots left. Stupid.
I'm observing China's grandmaster league through SC2ranks. The first 100 slots are already filled within a couple of hours. So I'm worried that when GM is up on NA tomorrow, the 200 slots will quickly get filled up by people without jobs or just kids skipping school instead of the truely good players.
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On April 12 2011 14:41 Terranium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:21 Kelethius wrote:
But at the same time, only people in GM are those that deserve it, so I accept my fate. Not essentially. The No.1 guy may not be available to play tomorrow when GM is up. In that case, the No.201 guy can take his place and when the No.1 guy comes back the day after there will be no more slots left. Stupid.
That's totally not true, since the no.1 guy only loses his slot if 200 people can get a higher moving mmr than him, which probably won't happen if he's active at all.
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Are you sure it works like that? How can top 201 guy get into top 200? I had assumed only top 200 based on mrr or w/e would get into the league. I.e. when blizz implements GM only those with top200 as of that time are accepted. I have read people talking about this in this thread but I dont think its correct.
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On April 12 2011 14:47 droxe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:41 Terranium wrote:On April 12 2011 14:21 Kelethius wrote:
But at the same time, only people in GM are those that deserve it, so I accept my fate. Not essentially. The No.1 guy may not be available to play tomorrow when GM is up. In that case, the No.201 guy can take his place and when the No.1 guy comes back the day after there will be no more slots left. Stupid. That's totally not true, since the no.1 guy only loses his slot if 200 people can get a higher moving mmr than him, which probably won't happen if he's active at all.
Problem is the MMR difference between No.150-250 is most probably very small, given the huge player pool on NA. So if the No.201 guy plays alot of games tomorrow theres a good chance he can break the MMR threadshold and get promoted. So there's also a good chance many truely good players can be missed.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 14:41 Terranium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:21 Kelethius wrote:
But at the same time, only people in GM are those that deserve it, so I accept my fate. Not essentially. The No.1 guy may not be available to play tomorrow when GM is up. In that case, the No.201 guy can take his place and when the No.1 guy comes back the day after there will be no more slots left. Stupid. I'm observing China's grandmaster league through SC2ranks. The first 100 slots are already filled within a couple of hours. So I'm worried that when GM is up on NA tomorrow, the 200 slots will quickly get filled up by people without jobs or just kids skipping school instead of the truely good players.
They would have to raise their MMR higher than the top 200 players in order to take their spots, so the likelihood of that happening is fairly low. It's possible that could happen for the #201 and #200 player though (say if the #200 player doesn't play tomorrow).
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On April 12 2011 14:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:41 Terranium wrote:On April 12 2011 14:21 Kelethius wrote:
But at the same time, only people in GM are those that deserve it, so I accept my fate. Not essentially. The No.1 guy may not be available to play tomorrow when GM is up. In that case, the No.201 guy can take his place and when the No.1 guy comes back the day after there will be no more slots left. Stupid. I'm observing China's grandmaster league through SC2ranks. The first 100 slots are already filled within a couple of hours. So I'm worried that when GM is up on NA tomorrow, the 200 slots will quickly get filled up by people without jobs or just kids skipping school instead of the truely good players. They would have to raise their MMR higher than the top 200 players in order to take their spots, so the likelihood of that happening is fairly low. It's possible that could happen for the #201 and #200 player though (say if the #200 player doesn't play tomorrow).
I'm counting on it so i can secure my spot :D
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On April 12 2011 14:47 droxe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:41 Terranium wrote:On April 12 2011 14:21 Kelethius wrote:
But at the same time, only people in GM are those that deserve it, so I accept my fate. Not essentially. The No.1 guy may not be available to play tomorrow when GM is up. In that case, the No.201 guy can take his place and when the No.1 guy comes back the day after there will be no more slots left. Stupid. That's totally not true, since the no.1 guy only loses his slot if 200 people can get a higher moving mmr than him, which probably won't happen if he's active at all.
I was going to post, now I can pretty much say, "What he said."
In order to lose your reserved spot you have to be passed by at least 200 people in mmr.
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So much jelly in this thread, unbelievable.
Get a hold of yourselves, everyone who's good enough to make top 200 is aware of the GM leagues, and will be playing when it's time to get promoted, because that's what they do, they just play and play while playing after and before playing. Playing players play to play. Play.
That is all.
Or not.
If you think you should make it, but you didn't.... well guess what, you thought wrong.
Thank you try again.
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On April 12 2011 09:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:40 Stosh wrote:On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly. What exactly is the problem with having a fluctuating bottom half of the league? For the most part, the general public is only going to be focused on the top half of the league to see who the "best players" are. Besides the players themselves, who is going to care if somebody is ranked 198 or 157? In my opinion people would pay more attention to the bottom half of the league if you had to fight to survive. It would be far more interesting to me to track a player to see if he remained in the top 200, rather then vacillating between rank 180 and 200. When I say "fluctuating constantly" I mean constantly. Like, the person you see at #200 may not be the person who's there 5 minutes later. That would be enough change to get confusing and make it difficult to keep track of who is actually in GM. I think that might be what they were trying to sidestep by simply locking the league and adding the activity requirement.
It seems kind of dumb that rising players may have a hard time getting into GM, when the requirements to stay in GM are fairly low. Sure, there will be some turn over, but if they did promotions/relegations once a week based on MMR, that would be more fair. They basically already do that with their Top 200 list.
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Did they just did a server restart on SEA and china? or was it maintenance?
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On April 12 2011 15:06 sad.wish wrote:
Did they just did a server restart on SEA and china? or was it maintenance?
They released a patch that fixed some bugs, and grandmaster was added too.
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On April 12 2011 13:23 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 13:15 ReketSomething wrote:
I feel bad for the REAL top 200 that can't get in once its locked... I'm not sure why people are complaining about this, when GSL picks people for Code S & Code A and then they keep that status for a season even when they lose. The idea for GSL is that that season's Code S get to fight it out for the season -- some Code A guy who does really well can't knock a Code S competitor out until a new season starts. Grandmaster league is exactly the same thing -- the best people on a certain day become the league for the next season. Someone below them who gets a lot better will just be in the league the following season.
the issue is, GSL lasts just under a month and then players have up/down and based on ability cycle through.
The GM league will last around around 8 to 9 months with players having no way to get in purely on skill once the season has been set. and that time period is way to long.
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On April 12 2011 15:08 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 13:23 Lysenko wrote:On April 12 2011 13:15 ReketSomething wrote:
I feel bad for the REAL top 200 that can't get in once its locked... I'm not sure why people are complaining about this, when GSL picks people for Code S & Code A and then they keep that status for a season even when they lose. The idea for GSL is that that season's Code S get to fight it out for the season -- some Code A guy who does really well can't knock a Code S competitor out until a new season starts. Grandmaster league is exactly the same thing -- the best people on a certain day become the league for the next season. Someone below them who gets a lot better will just be in the league the following season. the issue is, GSL lasts just under a month and then players have up/down and based on ability cycle through. The GM league will last around around 8 to 9 months with players having no way to get in purely on skill once the season has been set. and that time period is way to long.
no it won't last that long, they plan on doing seasons that end every few months (I think 2-3 is their goal might be wrong though). The reason "season 1" lasted forever wasn't intentional. So it sounds like they plan on sticking with a shorter plan now from season 2 onwards.
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On April 12 2011 15:08 KiF1rE wrote:
The GM league will last around around 8 to 9 months with players having no way to get in purely on skill once the season has been set. and that time period is way to long.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the GM league will last anywhere near that long.
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On April 12 2011 15:10 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 15:08 KiF1rE wrote:
The GM league will last around around 8 to 9 months with players having no way to get in purely on skill once the season has been set. and that time period is way to long. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the GM league will last anywhere near that long.
season 1, but there is also no evidence to my knowledge that it wont.
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@ the people saying that if you keep tanking you'll get 1-2 bonus points per win. I'm sure when your MMR tanks to low masters/high diamonds you won't have any trouble winning games. Let's assume you get 3 points per win when one's MMR is that low, that means you just have to maintain 1 win every ~6h (against potentially much weaker players).
Why not just take the top 200 MMR's per week? The fluctuation should be motivation to improve for those top players I would think and it's not like it'd be entirely difficult to implement.
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On April 12 2011 15:12 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 15:10 kzn wrote:On April 12 2011 15:08 KiF1rE wrote:
The GM league will last around around 8 to 9 months with players having no way to get in purely on skill once the season has been set. and that time period is way to long. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the GM league will last anywhere near that long. season 1, but there is also no evidence to my knowledge that it wont.
Except multiple very clear statements by Blizzard that the target time for a season is 3 months.
Still, far too long for a GM lockout... I mean constant rolling changes would be too much, but with some kind of slack it should work just fine. Just like the other league promotes, but a bit more conservative since someone has to fall out for someone to get in.
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2 weeks seems kind of shortly to me... imagine if someone is leaving for holidays for a few weeks, or at some tournaments in another country/server... but i dont mind i wont get there never anyways...
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On April 12 2011 15:10 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 15:08 KiF1rE wrote:On April 12 2011 13:23 Lysenko wrote:On April 12 2011 13:15 ReketSomething wrote:
I feel bad for the REAL top 200 that can't get in once its locked... I'm not sure why people are complaining about this, when GSL picks people for Code S & Code A and then they keep that status for a season even when they lose. The idea for GSL is that that season's Code S get to fight it out for the season -- some Code A guy who does really well can't knock a Code S competitor out until a new season starts. Grandmaster league is exactly the same thing -- the best people on a certain day become the league for the next season. Someone below them who gets a lot better will just be in the league the following season. the issue is, GSL lasts just under a month and then players have up/down and based on ability cycle through. The GM league will last around around 8 to 9 months with players having no way to get in purely on skill once the season has been set. and that time period is way to long. no it won't last that long, they plan on doing seasons that end every few months (I think 2-3 is their goal might be wrong though). The reason "season 1" lasted forever wasn't intentional. So it sounds like they plan on sticking with a shorter plan now from season 2 onwards.
Give some facts to that or otherwise its just speculation and opinions on what you think would be logical.
The only history we have of sc2 seasons is that season 1 lasted from release of the game ---> march, thats around 8-9 months. What's saying that this season wouldn't last to, hmm, HoTS?
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On April 12 2011 15:47 Silu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 15:12 KiF1rE wrote:On April 12 2011 15:10 kzn wrote:On April 12 2011 15:08 KiF1rE wrote:
The GM league will last around around 8 to 9 months with players having no way to get in purely on skill once the season has been set. and that time period is way to long. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the GM league will last anywhere near that long. season 1, but there is also no evidence to my knowledge that it wont. Except multiple very clear statements by Blizzard that the target time for a season is 3 months.
Source? Not disagreeing, just don't recall seeing that anywhere.
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On April 12 2011 16:07 JoxxOr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 15:10 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2011 15:08 KiF1rE wrote:On April 12 2011 13:23 Lysenko wrote:On April 12 2011 13:15 ReketSomething wrote:
I feel bad for the REAL top 200 that can't get in once its locked... I'm not sure why people are complaining about this, when GSL picks people for Code S & Code A and then they keep that status for a season even when they lose. The idea for GSL is that that season's Code S get to fight it out for the season -- some Code A guy who does really well can't knock a Code S competitor out until a new season starts. Grandmaster league is exactly the same thing -- the best people on a certain day become the league for the next season. Someone below them who gets a lot better will just be in the league the following season. the issue is, GSL lasts just under a month and then players have up/down and based on ability cycle through. The GM league will last around around 8 to 9 months with players having no way to get in purely on skill once the season has been set. and that time period is way to long. no it won't last that long, they plan on doing seasons that end every few months (I think 2-3 is their goal might be wrong though). The reason "season 1" lasted forever wasn't intentional. So it sounds like they plan on sticking with a shorter plan now from season 2 onwards. Give some facts to that or otherwise its just speculation and opinions on what you think would be logical. The only history we have of sc2 seasons is that season 1 lasted from release of the game ---> march, thats around 8-9 months. What's saying that this season wouldn't last to, hmm, HoTS?
I distinctly remember reading somewhere that they intended for seasons to be 3-4 months long, but a quick search hasn't yielded a link. The initial WoW arena season lasted much longer than intended, and subsequent season were much shorter.
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Anyone knows what CET time grandmaster will be launched in EU?
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On April 12 2011 16:25 arew wrote:
Anyone knows what CET time grandmaster will be launched in EU?
Should be Wednesday around 11 CET iirc. Two weeks after the patch, which Europe always gets last.
The system seems pretty solid. Waiting two weeks before demotion is a nice period, especially considering the pro's may also need an occasional vacation, or travel to other continents to play etc.
Demotion based on skill dropping would also be a nice addition, but then again, a Grandmaster staying active, but dropping in skill and thus struggling to remain in the GM league would add some drama to the whole thing instead of seeing players constantly drop out of and enter GM ranks 100-200.
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On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If all of the top 200 players who have been preselected all play their games right when the league goes live, they will stay in that league for the entire season regardless of performance, as long as they are able to keep their bonus pool below 270. Basically this is to showcase the top 200 players on the server but the activity requirement is there to keep the league from stagnating. If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly.
Thats what I figured when I read the official blue post. Unfortunately, this makes GM more like the FIRST 200, rather than TOP 200. =/. I'm sure the GM's still deserve their place, but it doesn't give a lot of incentive for those who are close and potentially better to catchup (the whole point of bonus pool). Hard to make a perfect system though.
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On April 12 2011 16:13 reprise wrote:
I distinctly remember reading somewhere that they intended for seasons to be 3-4 months long, but a quick search hasn't yielded a link. The initial WoW arena season lasted much longer than intended, and subsequent season were much shorter.
Actually the first season of WoW was one of the shorter ones, at 20 weeks. The shortest, I believe, was 17 weeks. Season 2 was 23, 3 was 29 and season 8 was 37 weeks.
Although, I believe them in SC2 if they say that they want future seasons to be shorter because they have no PvE content to balance around.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2228179462?page=9#179
So how long does each season go for? Anything confirmed on that?
Ideally about three months with a two week lock before the reset. Three months allows for better division placement by the end, and a bonus pool that isn't so huge that unless you're constantly playing never have any hopes to churn through.
Season 1 ended up being about nine months, and in the hopes of simply not prolonging it any further, the lock is only one week.
There are variables that could dictate when new Seasons happen, but in general we're looking at new Seasons beginning approximately every three months.
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Guys, i want to brag about the fact that im the only random player in grandmasters SEA. 
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On April 12 2011 09:15 aLt)nirvana wrote:A first glimpse of the GM league + new patch info (all bug fixes) as it has already been released on SEA. (plz dont direct embed the pic here, the site will die lol) http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=1168My first thought - The Grandmaster icon looks way better then the masters icon. My second thought - Wow even more hurdles for players if they want to get to the top of GM. For e.g if they ever fall out of GM and decide to start playing again, they have to wait a week to get promoted to GM(not sure about this). Then they lose all their points and have to start again climbing again from 200+. Not cool at all the "XP Decay" feels like too big of a obligation/commitment if you wanna maintain GM status.
Hey, kinda off topic, but is that the iceiceice from DotA? Do you know?
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Does everyone not realize that your MMR was not reset at the end of season 1?
Therefore, the 200 players placed in GM will be the ones with the highest MMRs across every game of SC2 ever played.
Am I incorrect?
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Yes i think that is iceiceice
He is sponsored by FXO now though i think.
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On April 12 2011 19:03 Chriscras wrote:
Does everyone not realize that your MMR was not reset at the end of season 1?
Therefore, the 200 players placed in GM will be the ones with the highest MMRs across every game of SC2 ever played.
Am I incorrect?
This was probably the cause of top players facing low ranked players at the end of season 1. Since the season was so long they contracted the span of mmr so that the top players actually had to play games to get top200.
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On April 12 2011 19:03 Chriscras wrote:
Does everyone not realize that your MMR was not reset at the end of season 1?
Therefore, the 200 players placed in GM will be the ones with the highest MMRs across every game of SC2 ever played.
Am I incorrect?
Negative, the top 200 list that used to be published in Season 1 every week or so (I'm making the reasonable assumption that it is this list that will be the GM criteria) wasn't dependent on one's MMR at all, it was simply a sliding scale of points depending on your division. I do believe they removed the division factor for season 2 so I'm going to say it's solely based on your points now.
Edit: This post is junk, disregard.
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Netherlands559 Posts
I don't understand what people are saying in regards to tanking the MMR and not being able to gain points effectively anymore. The following contains some reasoning with questions to try and understand it.
Isn't it so that if you are GM and you tank your MMR but you still play vs GM that the wins you get will grant you more points than if your MMR would've been higher?
Similarly I'm not sure, especially considering the limited amount of GM leaguers, when they play equivilant top master leaguers that they will gain very little points, wouldn't it still be decent? Because the masterleaguer can have way higher MMR but not be in GM, a win for GM should award quite a decent amount of points right?
Eitherway how I look at it is with 90 bonus points to gather every week, if you get 10 points per win on average thats 9 wins total per week, or at most if we take 5 points per win 18 wins a week. But when you start dropping I think you gain points easier because worse opponents equates to more frequent wins or beating higher grants you more points at once.
It's rather at the top where if you are MC himself and you only get 2 points per win because nobody has higher MMR or w/e that you need to win something like 45 games a week to spent your bonus pool.
So if that is correct, isn't it so that the higher you are in GM, the higher your MMR is, the less points you gain from wins, the slower you spent your bonuspool and thus the more wins you need to actually stay in?
Thats kinda wierd but I could very well be mistaken on multiple points, would be cool if someone could shed some light on it or point out my errors.
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I recall reading somewhere that if your MMR drops low enough you can get demoted from the Grandmaster's league. Maybe I just dreamt that. :/
Seems silly that you can lose all of your games and still retain the Grandmaster icon by your name when a lowly Master league player can have a 100% winrate and an MMR through the roof and not get promoted until someone accumulates a bonus pool of 180.
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On April 12 2011 19:16 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 19:03 Chriscras wrote:
Does everyone not realize that your MMR was not reset at the end of season 1?
Therefore, the 200 players placed in GM will be the ones with the highest MMRs across every game of SC2 ever played.
Am I incorrect? Negative, the top 200 list that used to be published in Season 1 every week or so (I'm making the reasonable assumption that it is this list that will be the GM criteria) wasn't dependent on one's MMR at all, it was simply a sliding scale of points depending on your division. I do believe they removed the division factor for season 2 so I'm going to say it's solely based on your points now.
Redarchon made GM with 9-9 stats. So your assumption isa bit off.
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On April 12 2011 19:16 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 19:03 Chriscras wrote:
Does everyone not realize that your MMR was not reset at the end of season 1?
Therefore, the 200 players placed in GM will be the ones with the highest MMRs across every game of SC2 ever played.
Am I incorrect? Negative, the top 200 list that used to be published in Season 1 every week or so (I'm making the reasonable assumption that it is this list that will be the GM criteria) wasn't dependent on one's MMR at all, it was simply a sliding scale of points depending on your division. I do believe they removed the division factor for season 2 so I'm going to say it's solely based on your points now.
This is incorrect, I've been comparing my Div with GM and there's players with enough points that have played a game tonight and have not been promoted into GM. The Blizz blog post also said selection would be based on MMR.
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I haven't been on yet, but my question is if 1 were to have "top 200 mmr" but doesn't play until tomorrow (when the patch clearly comes out today) does he still have a "reserved" spot in the top 200 grand masters league? or is it mainly first come first serve?
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On April 12 2011 08:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Activity Rule
Grandmaster players remain in Grandmaster League until the end of the season. If your bonus pool accumulates to 180 (2 weeks' worth), you are automatically removed from Grandmaster League and a new player will take your spot. This is the only way to get removed from this league.
hmm. i dunno. a lot of players focus on custom games while practicing for a tournament. hope this doesn't rule out some of them.
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On April 12 2011 21:56 oGm`REM wrote:
I haven't been on yet, but my question is if 1 were to have "top 200 mmr" but doesn't play until tomorrow (when the patch clearly comes out today) does he still have a "reserved" spot in the top 200 grand masters league? or is it mainly first come first serve?
"if you have a slot reserved but someone else gets a higher MMR moving average than you before you play your promotion game, your slot will be taken!"
Well thats what the OP has to say about this^^
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Will this thread be updated when grandmaster is released on North America ?
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Nope, nobody will say anything at all when people start getting into GM
Edit: Somebody just told me it comes out in 12 hours
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On April 12 2011 22:08 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Activity Rule
Grandmaster players remain in Grandmaster League until the end of the season. If your bonus pool accumulates to 180 (2 weeks' worth), you are automatically removed from Grandmaster League and a new player will take your spot. This is the only way to get removed from this league. hmm. i dunno. a lot of players focus on custom games while practicing for a tournament. hope this doesn't rule out some of them.
if you're on the top200 list it's already from laddering instead of custom gaming 24/7 so not winning a ladder game for 2 weeks is pretty unreasonable
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On April 12 2011 22:18 ExO_ wrote:
Nope, nobody will say anything at all when people start getting into GM
Edit: Somebody just told me it comes out in 12 hours
People were talking about this coming out at 12:00am PST last night.
...still no update on anything as of yet. (according to the battle.net site and sc2ranks.com)
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Can't believe people yet again calling Blizzard retarded etc and then completely misunderstanding things.
1) it's not based on the first few weeks this season, it's based on your mmr which carried over seasons (assuming you played one placement...)
2) constant leagues are inherently bad? Why then, for example, do soccer leagues stay the same for a whole year? There are teams in the English premier league who shouldn't be there any more. Ok I get that there a sseveral fundamental differences, but it keeps it interesting for the casuals.
(imho fortnightly relegations for the bottom 10 would be cool)
I'm not saying it's the best system, but it seems awesome to me, the casual player. I would rather it evolved in the direction of 'access replays of top 200 thru b.net' rather than any of this constant fluctuation stuff - I guess if I was currently 201st in my region I may feel different?...
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Will the top 200 be realtime, or will it be updated every week, like they used to?
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On April 12 2011 22:52 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Will the top 200 be realtime, or will it be updated every week, like they used to?
it will kinda be half realtime. the top 200 will swap around amongst the top 200 until someone decides to go inactive... meaning the bottom portion of the top 200 or so will be inaccurate as non gm leaguers surpass them.
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I'm confused about how this promotion works still. The north american server has been up for a bit with the new patch but still no one has been promoted to grand masters, even people who have won games in the top 100. edit: Is MMR really that effective to where people in the top 100 don't even have high enough mmr's compared to people significantly lower?
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It's too bad that the grandmaster list won't be very fluid, I'd imagine that the "real" bottom 50 of the top 200 would be changing on a nearly day to day basis. As a fan I'd like to be able to see this, maybe in the future
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So once you get into the league, it doesn`t matter how many games you lose since you can`t get out unless you accumulate more than 180 bonus pool points? Sounds silly.
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On April 12 2011 22:59 radu_c wrote:
So once you get into the league, it doesn`t matter how many games you lose since you can`t get out unless you accumulate more than 180 bonus pool points? Sounds silly.
If you were to lose multiple games in a row, it brings down your MMR whereas someone in high masters can win multiple games in a row and take your spot.
Therefore you can get "demoted" from Grand Masters by losing numerous games in a row.
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I know this could cause problems but what if, They made your pool increase at a faster rate, like double, so theres a better chance of getting kicked out of GM
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So what happens when ur eligible for the grand masters and you lose that one game that was suppose to put you in grand master, do you keep playing until u get in it? Or what
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On April 12 2011 23:10 lethal111 wrote:
So what happens when ur eligible for the grand masters and you lose that one game that was suppose to put you in grand master, do you keep playing until u get in it? Or what
If your MMR is high enough, it shouldn't matter if you win or lose your placement match.
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On April 12 2011 23:10 lethal111 wrote:
So what happens when ur eligible for the grand masters and you lose that one game that was suppose to put you in grand master, do you keep playing until u get in it? Or what
You will be able to play and get back into it.
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wow, this will be really great to see the top 200 players :D
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I need this to start asap. My rank is falling every hour. Don't want to play and risk losing when I'm already #113 based on points right now.
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Is there a specific time that grandmasters league comes out for north america, cause the patch has been out almost two hours. Does anyone know how it worked for the other servers?
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Ugh, went to sleep last night when I was about 140th NA, now I check and I'm 213th, and won't be able to play for 4 hours. Doubt I make it :/
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On April 12 2011 23:24 tekushikume wrote:
Is there a specific time that grandmasters league comes out for north america, cause the patch has been out almost two hours. Does anyone know how it worked for the other servers?
I think you can get the promotion already (if you are indeed top 200).
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On April 12 2011 23:31 SDream wrote:
I think you can get the promotion already (if you are indeed top 200).
Not yet for NA server.
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is GM live right now for NA? my sc2 is updating
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and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways
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On April 12 2011 10:33 Bean54 wrote:
Perhaps they chose 2 weeks for this first grandmaster league because they plan to re-evaluate the grandmaster league every so often. If they re-evaluated the grandmaster every 2 weeks it would avoid a constantly changing league but also allow legitimately top players to not be left out in the cold if they missed the initial 2 week window. Hopefully they do something like this, I think a rather stagnant grandmaster league for 3 months would be awful.
This. I think they should update it every 2 weeks, and synchronize the final update with the lock on all other promotions/demotions at the end of a season. Avoids a constantly fluctuating league and at the same time keeps it well updated.
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On April 12 2011 23:32 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 23:31 SDream wrote:
I think you can get the promotion already (if you are indeed top 200). Not yet for NA server.
How do you know?
2 weeks have passed already (181 bonus pool), the patch is here.
I don't think it says "now you can get promoted", it's just something it will happen if some of the top 200 tries, isn't it.
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On April 12 2011 23:48 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 23:32 oGm`REM wrote:On April 12 2011 23:31 SDream wrote:
I think you can get the promotion already (if you are indeed top 200). Not yet for NA server. How do you know? 2 weeks have passed already (181 bonus pool), the patch is here. I don't think it says "now you can get promoted", it's just something it will happen if some of the top 200 tries, isn't it.
How do I know? Because there is no patch yet to update....lol.
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On April 12 2011 23:51 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 23:48 SDream wrote:On April 12 2011 23:32 oGm`REM wrote:On April 12 2011 23:31 SDream wrote:
I think you can get the promotion already (if you are indeed top 200). Not yet for NA server. How do you know? 2 weeks have passed already (181 bonus pool), the patch is here. I don't think it says "now you can get promoted", it's just something it will happen if some of the top 200 tries, isn't it. How do I know? Because there is no patch yet to update....lol.
you guys should study to become theoretical physicists.
Honestly though, people need to stop complaining about "the REAL top 200"
if they didn't play season one and season two with an amazing consistent win/loss ratio, they don't deserve to be showcased in ladder and that's that.
Who cares if some guy you haven't heard of got into top 200 but say IdrA didn't ? (just an example) Do you think he'll give a shit he didn't make it into Grand Master league? He's out there playing tournaments, the so called "real top 200" will be showcased in a much more respectable manner than just grand master league, they'll be interviewed, rewarded, etc...
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On April 12 2011 23:51 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 23:48 SDream wrote:On April 12 2011 23:32 oGm`REM wrote:On April 12 2011 23:31 SDream wrote:
I think you can get the promotion already (if you are indeed top 200). Not yet for NA server. How do you know? 2 weeks have passed already (181 bonus pool), the patch is here. I don't think it says "now you can get promoted", it's just something it will happen if some of the top 200 tries, isn't it. How do I know? Because there is no patch yet to update....lol.
Patch came out and can be updated. The servers aren't up yet.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 12 2011 23:51 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 23:48 SDream wrote:On April 12 2011 23:32 oGm`REM wrote:On April 12 2011 23:31 SDream wrote:
I think you can get the promotion already (if you are indeed top 200). Not yet for NA server. How do you know? 2 weeks have passed already (181 bonus pool), the patch is here. I don't think it says "now you can get promoted", it's just something it will happen if some of the top 200 tries, isn't it. How do I know? Because there is no patch yet to update....lol.
The SEA and China patch came after people started getting into GM, I believe.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways
If some guy has 1000 pts. That means his MMR is high enough to be in top 200 for sure. If you play well, you can definitely raise your MMR high enough to be top 200. I think you need to be top 100 in points to feel safe about making it to top 200.
The best measure is by looking at who you're playing. If you're playing progamers, then you have a good chance. If you're playing a bunch of no names, you're probably not top 200. Another thing you want to look at is how much points your opponent wins or loses when they play you. If your MMR is equivalent to their displayed points, he loses/wins 12 points. If your MMR is below his displayed rank, he wins less than 12 points or he loses more than 12 points.
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On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways
just FYI previous blizz top 200's were all by pts not MMR and a nobody coming to get 1k pts will have a high ass MMR because 1k pts right now is no joke lol
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On April 12 2011 23:54 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways If some guy has 1000 pts. That means his MMR is high enough to be in top 200 for sure. If you play well, you can definitely raise your MMR high enough to be top 200. I think you need to be top 100 in points to feel safe about making it to top 200. The best measure is by looking at who you're playing. If you're playing progamers, then you have a good chance. If you're playing a bunch of no names, you're probably not top 200. Another thing you want to look at is how much points your opponent wins or loses when they play you. If your MMR is equivalent to their displayed points, he loses/wins 12 points. If your MMR is below his displayed rank, he wins less than 12 points or he loses more than 12 points.
Very good valid points. Thanks.
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Can't wait to get home and get the sexy top 16 GM medal..!!
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Hmm does this mean for a small time it will be easyer to gain a promotion into masters league? given 200 spots should "free" up??
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On April 13 2011 00:13 Meldrath wrote:
Hmm does this mean for a small time it will be easyer to gain a promotion into masters league? given 200 spots should "free" up??
not at all.... you still need more skill to get promoted.
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On April 13 2011 00:14 sad.wish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:13 Meldrath wrote:
Hmm does this mean for a small time it will be easyer to gain a promotion into masters league? given 200 spots should "free" up?? not at all.... you still need more skill to get promoted.
Right now I'm picturing "Not enough minerals" protoss voice over, except, "Not enough skill".
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On April 13 2011 00:14 sad.wish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:13 Meldrath wrote:
Hmm does this mean for a small time it will be easyer to gain a promotion into masters league? given 200 spots should "free" up?? not at all.... you still need more skill to get promoted. I understand this. in my case I have been playing mid/low masters players very frequently with 50/50 results.... I often wonder if Im not getting promoted becuase of some mechanical flaw with the promotion system. Im sure the system is fine.. (I hope) just frustrating you can have a look if you like. meldrathxdbx 986 on sc2 ranks and see what you think
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So.. has anyone in NA been promoted to Grand Masters yet?
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On April 13 2011 00:17 oGm`REM wrote:
So.. has anyone in NA been promoted to Grand Masters yet?
Nope XD, The ladder is still empty and no one I know has received a promotion.
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On April 13 2011 00:19 tekushikume wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:17 oGm`REM wrote:
So.. has anyone in NA been promoted to Grand Masters yet? Nope XD, The ladder is still empty and no one I know has received a promotion.
Despite that, I doubt it is not activeted yet, but people still need to win once.
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I think I shall for GM to be officially incorporated before I play a game. :D
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I am surprised it has not activated yet looking at the other servers that have grandmasters.
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On April 13 2011 00:22 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:19 tekushikume wrote:On April 13 2011 00:17 oGm`REM wrote:
So.. has anyone in NA been promoted to Grand Masters yet? Nope XD, The ladder is still empty and no one I know has received a promotion. Despite that, I doubt it is not activeted yet, but people still need to win once.
Nope, several people at the top have won once and not gotten promoted
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 00:23 oGm`REM wrote:
I think I shall wait for GM to be officially incorporated before I play a game. :D
That's exactly my plan.
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On April 12 2011 23:03 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 22:59 radu_c wrote:
So once you get into the league, it doesn`t matter how many games you lose since you can`t get out unless you accumulate more than 180 bonus pool points? Sounds silly. If you were to lose multiple games in a row, it brings down your MMR whereas someone in high masters can win multiple games in a row and take your spot. Therefore you can get "demoted" from Grand Masters by losing numerous games in a row.
Nope. mmr is only a requirement to get into the league. Once you're in the league your mmr doesn't do anything but place yout 1-200. Only inactivity can get you demoted
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On April 12 2011 23:54 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways If some guy has 1000 pts. That means his MMR is high enough to be in top 200 for sure. If you play well, you can definitely raise your MMR high enough to be top 200. I think you need to be top 100 in points to feel safe about making it to top 200. The best measure is by looking at who you're playing. If you're playing progamers, then you have a good chance. If you're playing a bunch of no names, you're probably not top 200. Another thing you want to look at is how much points your opponent wins or loses when they play you. If your MMR is equivalent to their displayed points, he loses/wins 12 points. If your MMR is below his displayed rank, he wins less than 12 points or he loses more than 12 points.
I disagree with that.. I've been playing tons of people on ladder right now who are in that 700-900 pts range and they have 300 games, all cannon rushing or 6pooling.. My point being, these guys had to mass game in these past 2 weeks because last season most of them couldnt even crack 3000 masters, and now they are in the top 100 of this 2 week-season by just playing more than everyone. They will not get in the GM league, despite being top 100 right now on SC2ranks.com
MMR carries over from last season. It is true though in what you said how, if you are playing known players at the top, chances are you'll get in GM.. If you are playing no-namers, you wont make it, regardless if you have 1000 pts this season. That was my point.
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Well there are people on the top 200 who cheated because if u look their score is like 62-0 and if they get into the grand masters, it is going to ruin the game
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On April 13 2011 00:26 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:23 oGm`REM wrote:
I think I shall wait for GM to be officially incorporated before I play a game. :D That's exactly my plan.
mine too
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 00:45 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 23:54 T.O.P. wrote:On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways If some guy has 1000 pts. That means his MMR is high enough to be in top 200 for sure. If you play well, you can definitely raise your MMR high enough to be top 200. I think you need to be top 100 in points to feel safe about making it to top 200. The best measure is by looking at who you're playing. If you're playing progamers, then you have a good chance. If you're playing a bunch of no names, you're probably not top 200. Another thing you want to look at is how much points your opponent wins or loses when they play you. If your MMR is equivalent to their displayed points, he loses/wins 12 points. If your MMR is below his displayed rank, he wins less than 12 points or he loses more than 12 points. I disagree with that.. I've been playing tons of people on ladder right now who are in that 700-900 pts range and they have 300 games, all cannon rushing or 6pooling.. My point being, these guys had to mass game in these past 2 weeks because last season most of them couldnt even crack 3000 masters, and now they are in the top 100 of this 2 week-season by just playing more than everyone. They will not get in the GM league, despite being top 100 right now on SC2ranks.com MMR carries over from last season. It is true though in what you said how, if you are playing known players at the top, chances are you'll get in GM.. If you are playing no-namers, you wont make it, regardless if you have 1000 pts this season. That was my point.
Cannon rushing and 6 pooling every game doesn't prevent you from being Grandmaster. I don't buy the theory that some people have much higher points than other players because they play more than anyone else. I estimate that most players in the top 200 already have their MMR and displayed points converge. When they converge, you win/lose 12 points on average. I know that those mass gamer's MMR and displayed points definitely converged because they mass gamed.
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On April 13 2011 00:57 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:45 Skyze wrote:On April 12 2011 23:54 T.O.P. wrote:On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways If some guy has 1000 pts. That means his MMR is high enough to be in top 200 for sure. If you play well, you can definitely raise your MMR high enough to be top 200. I think you need to be top 100 in points to feel safe about making it to top 200. The best measure is by looking at who you're playing. If you're playing progamers, then you have a good chance. If you're playing a bunch of no names, you're probably not top 200. Another thing you want to look at is how much points your opponent wins or loses when they play you. If your MMR is equivalent to their displayed points, he loses/wins 12 points. If your MMR is below his displayed rank, he wins less than 12 points or he loses more than 12 points. I disagree with that.. I've been playing tons of people on ladder right now who are in that 700-900 pts range and they have 300 games, all cannon rushing or 6pooling.. My point being, these guys had to mass game in these past 2 weeks because last season most of them couldnt even crack 3000 masters, and now they are in the top 100 of this 2 week-season by just playing more than everyone. They will not get in the GM league, despite being top 100 right now on SC2ranks.com MMR carries over from last season. It is true though in what you said how, if you are playing known players at the top, chances are you'll get in GM.. If you are playing no-namers, you wont make it, regardless if you have 1000 pts this season. That was my point. Cannon rushing and 6 pooling every game doesn't prevent you from being Grandmaster. I don't buy the theory that some people have much higher points than other players because they play more than anyone else. I estimate that most players in the top 200 already have their MMR and displayed points converge. When they converge, you win/lose 12 points on average. I know that those mass gamer's MMR and displayed points definitely converged because they mass gamed.
You are missing my point dude.. the points right now on SC2ranks.com have been there for TWO-WEEKS.. that means, the top players that are not all the 4K pts we saw last season, these are just who has played the most in 2 weeks. Not a lot of time. Thats why someone like Idra can get 1000 pts with less than 75 games, while others need 250-300+ to get the same in this 2 week period.
People like Combat-EX who did the mass cannon rushing last season and got 4K will be in the GM for sure, im not saying it "prevents" you from being in GM.. but what I am saying is that just because you are top 200 on SC2ranks.com right NOW in this 2 week season (and afew are solely due to 6pooling everygame with over 400 games), doesnt mean you will be in GM.. Anyone who wasnt top 200 from Season 1 or anywhere near the MMR for it, ie if anyone wasnt above 3000 last season, just because they are in top 200 on SC2ranks.com right now doesnt mean they will get in GM today. Thats what im saying.
But we'll find out in afew hours I guess. If the top 200 right now on SC2ranks.com are the ones who get all migrated to Grandmasters, i'll concede defeat. But im 99% positive it goes by MMR still, not current SC2ranks.com point totals.. Top MMR goes in, not top points. We'll see afew 900-1000 pts players left over after GM comes.
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On April 13 2011 00:54 lethal111 wrote:
Well there are people on the top 200 who cheated because if u look their score is like 62-0 and if they get into the grand masters, it is going to ruin the game
Well, obviously battle.net is going to look into this and ban them.
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Well I started playing ladder the last two weeks and I wasn't the top 200 but even after one week, my mmr is already top 200, iv recently played select, ranged, combat ex, bunch of people in complexity and various other top 200 like ranged, vt gaming and etc
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On April 13 2011 01:15 lethal111 wrote:
Well I started playing ladder the last two weeks and I wasn't the top 200 but even after one week, my mmr is already top 200, iv recently played select, ranged, combat ex, bunch of people in complexity and various other top 200 like ranged, vt gaming and etc
What are you exactly trying to get at?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 01:08 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:57 T.O.P. wrote:On April 13 2011 00:45 Skyze wrote:On April 12 2011 23:54 T.O.P. wrote:On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways If some guy has 1000 pts. That means his MMR is high enough to be in top 200 for sure. If you play well, you can definitely raise your MMR high enough to be top 200. I think you need to be top 100 in points to feel safe about making it to top 200. The best measure is by looking at who you're playing. If you're playing progamers, then you have a good chance. If you're playing a bunch of no names, you're probably not top 200. Another thing you want to look at is how much points your opponent wins or loses when they play you. If your MMR is equivalent to their displayed points, he loses/wins 12 points. If your MMR is below his displayed rank, he wins less than 12 points or he loses more than 12 points. I disagree with that.. I've been playing tons of people on ladder right now who are in that 700-900 pts range and they have 300 games, all cannon rushing or 6pooling.. My point being, these guys had to mass game in these past 2 weeks because last season most of them couldnt even crack 3000 masters, and now they are in the top 100 of this 2 week-season by just playing more than everyone. They will not get in the GM league, despite being top 100 right now on SC2ranks.com MMR carries over from last season. It is true though in what you said how, if you are playing known players at the top, chances are you'll get in GM.. If you are playing no-namers, you wont make it, regardless if you have 1000 pts this season. That was my point. Cannon rushing and 6 pooling every game doesn't prevent you from being Grandmaster. I don't buy the theory that some people have much higher points than other players because they play more than anyone else. I estimate that most players in the top 200 already have their MMR and displayed points converge. When they converge, you win/lose 12 points on average. I know that those mass gamer's MMR and displayed points definitely converged because they mass gamed. You are missing my point dude.. the points right now on SC2ranks.com have been there for TWO-WEEKS.. that means, the top players that are not all the 4K pts we saw last season, these are just who has played the most in 2 weeks. Not a lot of time. Thats why someone like Idra can get 1000 pts with less than 75 games, while others need 250-300+ to get the same in this 2 week period. People like Combat-EX who did the mass cannon rushing last season and got 4K will be in the GM for sure, im not saying it "prevents" you from being in GM.. but what I am saying is that just because you are top 200 on SC2ranks.com right NOW in this 2 week season (and afew are solely due to 6pooling everygame with over 400 games), doesnt mean you will be in GM.. Anyone who wasnt top 200 from Season 1 or anywhere near the MMR for it, ie if anyone wasnt above 3000 last season, just because they are in top 200 on SC2ranks.com right now doesnt mean they will get in GM today. Thats what im saying. But we'll find out in afew hours I guess. If the top 200 right now on SC2ranks.com are the ones who get all migrated to Grandmasters, i'll concede defeat. But im 99% positive it goes by MMR still, not current SC2ranks.com point totals.. Top MMR goes in, not top points. We'll see afew 900-1000 pts players left over after GM comes.
I never said top points go in. I always said top MMR goes in. But after a while, MMR and displayed points converge. I'm sure all those 900-1000 pt players will go to GM. What people have to worry about is how many players are out there with a high MMR, but only 20 games played. That would lead to a big disparity between MMR and points.
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On April 13 2011 00:57 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:45 Skyze wrote:On April 12 2011 23:54 T.O.P. wrote:On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways If some guy has 1000 pts. That means his MMR is high enough to be in top 200 for sure. If you play well, you can definitely raise your MMR high enough to be top 200. I think you need to be top 100 in points to feel safe about making it to top 200. The best measure is by looking at who you're playing. If you're playing progamers, then you have a good chance. If you're playing a bunch of no names, you're probably not top 200. Another thing you want to look at is how much points your opponent wins or loses when they play you. If your MMR is equivalent to their displayed points, he loses/wins 12 points. If your MMR is below his displayed rank, he wins less than 12 points or he loses more than 12 points. I disagree with that.. I've been playing tons of people on ladder right now who are in that 700-900 pts range and they have 300 games, all cannon rushing or 6pooling.. My point being, these guys had to mass game in these past 2 weeks because last season most of them couldnt even crack 3000 masters, and now they are in the top 100 of this 2 week-season by just playing more than everyone. They will not get in the GM league, despite being top 100 right now on SC2ranks.com MMR carries over from last season. It is true though in what you said how, if you are playing known players at the top, chances are you'll get in GM.. If you are playing no-namers, you wont make it, regardless if you have 1000 pts this season. That was my point. Cannon rushing and 6 pooling every game doesn't prevent you from being Grandmaster. I don't buy the theory that some people have much higher points than other players because they play more than anyone else. I estimate that most players in the top 200 already have their MMR and displayed points converge. When they converge, you win/lose 12 points on average. I know that those mass gamer's MMR and displayed points definitely converged because they mass gamed.
I think Skyze is right. MRR is transferred from last season and GM is dependent solely on your MMR. This would mean that it's just Season 1 record + Season 2 record for everyone. Person who was low masters S1 but has been grinding out games in S2 doesn't really seem to have good chances to get into GM compared to someone who was 4k+ masters S1 and has played like 2 games this season.
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On April 13 2011 01:22 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 01:15 lethal111 wrote:
Well I started playing ladder the last two weeks and I wasn't the top 200 but even after one week, my mmr is already top 200, iv recently played select, ranged, combat ex, bunch of people in complexity and various other top 200 like ranged, vt gaming and etc What are you exactly trying to get at?
Haha right? What are we supposed to say.. good going? I just see gm league as something to help me stay motivated laddering. right now I have absolutely zero motivation for sc2 :/
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No im saying that people mmrs that aren't so great could be good enough for grand masters
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How do you know if it's good enough for masters? what does mmr not being so great mean?
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On April 13 2011 01:08 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:57 T.O.P. wrote:On April 13 2011 00:45 Skyze wrote:On April 12 2011 23:54 T.O.P. wrote:On April 12 2011 23:41 Skyze wrote:
and you guys worrying about if you are top 200 right now on this reset; dont worry.. Its based off MMR, not points. I mean, someone who was not even playing last season could just come in and get 1000 pts in masters this season, doesnt mean he'd be in grandmasters. MMR is carried over from last season, and the ones who were top 200 last time blizzard released their weekly updates, will be the ones who get in this GM (barring any that lost a lot since then, but chances are 95% of them kept their MMR high enough)
so dont fuss over being #213th on ladder right now, if you wernt top 200 before you wont get in anyways If some guy has 1000 pts. That means his MMR is high enough to be in top 200 for sure. If you play well, you can definitely raise your MMR high enough to be top 200. I think you need to be top 100 in points to feel safe about making it to top 200. The best measure is by looking at who you're playing. If you're playing progamers, then you have a good chance. If you're playing a bunch of no names, you're probably not top 200. Another thing you want to look at is how much points your opponent wins or loses when they play you. If your MMR is equivalent to their displayed points, he loses/wins 12 points. If your MMR is below his displayed rank, he wins less than 12 points or he loses more than 12 points. I disagree with that.. I've been playing tons of people on ladder right now who are in that 700-900 pts range and they have 300 games, all cannon rushing or 6pooling.. My point being, these guys had to mass game in these past 2 weeks because last season most of them couldnt even crack 3000 masters, and now they are in the top 100 of this 2 week-season by just playing more than everyone. They will not get in the GM league, despite being top 100 right now on SC2ranks.com MMR carries over from last season. It is true though in what you said how, if you are playing known players at the top, chances are you'll get in GM.. If you are playing no-namers, you wont make it, regardless if you have 1000 pts this season. That was my point. Cannon rushing and 6 pooling every game doesn't prevent you from being Grandmaster. I don't buy the theory that some people have much higher points than other players because they play more than anyone else. I estimate that most players in the top 200 already have their MMR and displayed points converge. When they converge, you win/lose 12 points on average. I know that those mass gamer's MMR and displayed points definitely converged because they mass gamed. You are missing my point dude.. the points right now on SC2ranks.com have been there for TWO-WEEKS.. that means, the top players that are not all the 4K pts we saw last season, these are just who has played the most in 2 weeks. Not a lot of time. Thats why someone like Idra can get 1000 pts with less than 75 games, while others need 250-300+ to get the same in this 2 week period. People like Combat-EX who did the mass cannon rushing last season and got 4K will be in the GM for sure, im not saying it "prevents" you from being in GM.. but what I am saying is that just because you are top 200 on SC2ranks.com right NOW in this 2 week season (and afew are solely due to 6pooling everygame with over 400 games), doesnt mean you will be in GM.. Anyone who wasnt top 200 from Season 1 or anywhere near the MMR for it, ie if anyone wasnt above 3000 last season, just because they are in top 200 on SC2ranks.com right now doesnt mean they will get in GM today. Thats what im saying. But we'll find out in afew hours I guess. If the top 200 right now on SC2ranks.com are the ones who get all migrated to Grandmasters, i'll concede defeat. But im 99% positive it goes by MMR still, not current SC2ranks.com point totals.. Top MMR goes in, not top points. We'll see afew 900-1000 pts players left over after GM comes.
I think you're underestimating how hard it is to get to 800 points. There's a reason only ~200 people have done it so far. If you were at ~4k points before reset (roughly top 200), you got free points this season up to about 800. There are some good players who haven't been active enough to get their points up to their MMR, but for the most part, the players who are above 800-850 right now will make GM.
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On April 13 2011 01:32 Alejandrisha wrote:
How do you know if it's good enough for masters? what does mmr not being so great mean?
How can you be oblivious by what he is trying to say? Obviously if you're playing "randoms" consistently; and going 50/50 with them, you're MMR is clearly not high enough.
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On April 13 2011 01:22 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 01:15 lethal111 wrote:
Well I started playing ladder the last two weeks and I wasn't the top 200 but even after one week, my mmr is already top 200, iv recently played select, ranged, combat ex, bunch of people in complexity and various other top 200 like ranged, vt gaming and etc What are you exactly trying to get at?
he's saying he's an example of someone who is essentially cheesing their way into Grandmasters. He wasn't good enough to get into GM before the reset, but now after massgaming for 2 weeks he feels he is good enough (based on the players he's getting matched with)
Honestly though, if you are suddenly good enough to play people like SeleCT and other top 200 players now, you were good enough to play them before. IMO noone increases their skill so drastically in just 2 weeks.
So it seems the real question people are getting at is: is it possible for a masters or below player to temporarily inflate their MMR high enough to get into the GM league in 2 weeks?
Guess we'll see in a few hours.
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8748 Posts
On April 13 2011 01:22 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 01:15 lethal111 wrote:
Well I started playing ladder the last two weeks and I wasn't the top 200 but even after one week, my mmr is already top 200, iv recently played select, ranged, combat ex, bunch of people in complexity and various other top 200 like ranged, vt gaming and etc What are you exactly trying to get at?
His point is that it's misleading to say that grandmasters is based on all of season one + two weeks of season two when MMR can be volatile enough to promote someone from well outside of the top 200 to well inside the top 200 in less than two weeks. Certain ranges of games played per day and win rate make MMR change rapidly enough that season one becomes irrelevant. It's been a while since I've played from a fresh account but last time I did it was possible to match against top 50 players within 50 games played.
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Tyler is right,
Cause if you look at sTkChance's match history, he has like under 30 games, and hes playing all the top players.
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On April 13 2011 01:44 sad.wish wrote:
Tyler is right,
Cause if you look at sTkChance's match history, he has like under 30 games, and hes playing all the top players.
I would argue that sTkChance is obviously a smurf, noone can get to top 200 without playing hundreds of games of starcraft 2.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 13 2011 01:36 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 01:22 oGm`REM wrote:On April 13 2011 01:15 lethal111 wrote:
Well I started playing ladder the last two weeks and I wasn't the top 200 but even after one week, my mmr is already top 200, iv recently played select, ranged, combat ex, bunch of people in complexity and various other top 200 like ranged, vt gaming and etc What are you exactly trying to get at? he's saying he's an example of someone who is essentially cheesing their way into Grandmasters. He wasn't good enough to get into GM before the reset, but now after massgaming for 2 weeks he feels he is good enough (based on the players he's getting matched with) Honestly though, if you are suddenly good enough to play people like SeleCT and other top 200 players now, you were good enough to play them before. IMO noone increases their skill so drastically in just 2 weeks. So it seems the real question people are getting at is: is it possible for a masters or below player to temporarily inflate their MMR high enough to get into the GM league in 2 weeks?Guess we'll see in a few hours.
I guess the answer depends on the interval of the moving average. I'm assuming this is the same interval that's used to determine promotion eligibility for all the other leagues, so it may not be that high. The question then becomes "how many games must you play against top players before it recognizes you to be at their level (and therefore have a moving average that is on par with them)?" Basically, the eternal "when am I getting promoted?" question applies even here =)
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8748 Posts
Yeah the only question is whether someone with a highly volatile MMR can be put into grandmasters. I believe Excalibur_Z has said that league promotions and demotions aren't made when MMR volatility is high. The system waits until you've settled down a bit by getting closer to a 50% win rate (edit: I think getting close to a 50% win rate isn't necessary, but I think it's the fastest way to have your moving average "settle" so that's what I think of), and then it makes its decision about what league you should be in.
So I think it's possible someone could have made a new account yesterday, gone 50-0, had top 10 MMR on the server, but would not get in grandmasters.
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On April 13 2011 01:42 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 01:22 oGm`REM wrote:On April 13 2011 01:15 lethal111 wrote:
Well I started playing ladder the last two weeks and I wasn't the top 200 but even after one week, my mmr is already top 200, iv recently played select, ranged, combat ex, bunch of people in complexity and various other top 200 like ranged, vt gaming and etc What are you exactly trying to get at? His point is that it's misleading to say that grandmasters is based on all of season one + two weeks of season two when MMR can be volatile enough to promote someone from well outside of the top 200 to well inside the top 200 in less than two weeks. Certain ranges of games played per day and win rate make MMR change rapidly enough that season one becomes irrelevant. It's been a while since I've played from a fresh account but last time I did it was possible to match against top 50 players within 50 games played.
That's because you're Tyler and have probably went at least 45-5 winning numerous games in a row, hence it increases your MMR drastically.
In all seriousness, I see where you guys are coming with what he was trying to get at. Thanks.
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On April 13 2011 01:48 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Yeah the only question is whether someone with a highly volatile MMR can be put into grandmasters. I believe Excalibur_Z has said that league promotions and demotions aren't made when MMR volatility is high. The system waits until you've settled down a bit by getting closer to a 50% win rate (edit: I think getting close to a 50% win rate isn't necessary, but I think it's the fastest way to have your moving average "settle" so that's what I think of), and then it makes its decision about what league you should be in.
So I think it's possible someone could have made a new account yesterday, gone 50-0, had top 10 MMR on the server, but would not get in grandmasters.
Yeh thats been the case even since release.. Remember CauthonLuck? He was like 60-4 and couldnt get promoted into Diamond because of this.. yet many people were in diamond with like 30-20.
If you keep winning too much early on, the system doesnt know what your real "placement" is, and they just wait until you start losing to find out where you fit. If you dont lose, you stay in limbo. This is what happens to new accounts; they can win so fast and avoid the situations everyone like us who played from the very start of the season (like now, where most people in masters are at 60%) and skip right up in point totals with a 90%+ win percentage before their MMR settles and places them properly.
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TOP/lethal11 what are your bnet ids? Just curious
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So, wait even if the GM has been released in China and SEA it is impossible to get you're ranking up and you're MMR up even though it hasn't been released in NA, EU, KR,? So the people have already been chosen and it doesn't matter what you're final rating is if you've already been chosen? What if you lose you're placement match?
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I'm curious how the hell Happy is world rank 1 with 96 - 7, 93.20% winrate, he should be the best player in the world statistically? But it doesn't mean he has the highest MMR or does it?
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On April 13 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:TOP/lethal11 what are your bnet ids? Just curious
I second this.
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i have the chance of a snowball in hell to get into grandmasters league, but if there is no demotion and blizzards seasons last like what 3 month, then the real top200 and the grandmasters league are something entirely different at the end :o, that is not really competitive at all <.<
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United States12235 Posts
On April 13 2011 01:48 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Yeah the only question is whether someone with a highly volatile MMR can be put into grandmasters. I believe Excalibur_Z has said that league promotions and demotions aren't made when MMR volatility is high. The system waits until you've settled down a bit by getting closer to a 50% win rate (edit: I think getting close to a 50% win rate isn't necessary, but I think it's the fastest way to have your moving average "settle" so that's what I think of), and then it makes its decision about what league you should be in.
So I think it's possible someone could have made a new account yesterday, gone 50-0, had top 10 MMR on the server, but would not get in grandmasters.
They changed that around the time Master league got released. Now it's solely based upon moving average and doesn't require stability (because moving average is its own stability measure). Alejandrisha's smurf for example went 23-0 to get from Platinum into Diamond whereas previously that wouldn't have been possible.
Promotions also happen more aggressively than they used to, but you can no longer skip leagues. If someone has a really high win streak starting in Bronze for example, then they would get promoted every 2-4 games into Silver then Gold then Plat, etc. Under the initial version of the system, you would have had to wait during those games then level off your MMR somewhere then you would get promoted straight into Diamond.
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well I can say one thing.. if what TOP is saying is true (in that season 1 doesnt matter, its whos top 200 in points right now in these past 2 weeks).. then I wish I played more this week!
Looks like if you dont get into GM now, its gonna be insanely hard to ever get in since people cant drop out from losses.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:TOP/lethal11 what are your bnet ids? Just curious
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/494212/TOP
On April 13 2011 02:19 Skyze wrote:
well I can say one thing.. if what TOP is saying is true (in that season 1 doesnt matter, its whos top 200 in points right now in these past 2 weeks).. then I wish I played more this week!
Looks like if you dont get into GM now, its gonna be insanely hard to ever get in since people cant drop out from losses.
Season 1 impacts your chances by importing your old MMR into Season 2. But your MMR can change a lot in 2 weeks too.
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This thing is taking forever to come out......
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anyone have any idea how long after the patch it took sea server to start promoting to grand master? i tried to find this info my self but no exact number was found, thx!
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On April 13 2011 02:43 Sid(TB) wrote:
anyone have any idea how long after the patch it took sea server to start promoting to grand master? i tried to find this info my self but no exact number was found, thx!
GM league was available before they got the patch.
We have 182 bonus pool already, which means more than 2 weeks, so it seems we are bugged or someone actually needs to press the botton on Blizzard side.
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On April 12 2011 10:50 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 10:41 whalebot wrote:
I wonder how will this work for LAT Server. There are only ~180 masters right now. The dissolution of the Master league, maybe? =)
i want a LAT account
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why they got the patch out but without the gm?
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does anyone know when GM startS?
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On April 13 2011 03:38 Limenade wrote:
does anyone know when GM startS?
No one knows. I would guess in the next couple of hours though.
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Blizzard has a habit of doing stuff randomly only when im at school so im gonna guess GM gonna be released when im in class.. lol
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Pretty silly if you as me that the G-Master league is based on frequency of play an hidden MMR, instead of actual achievements.
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On April 13 2011 04:07 SichuanPanda wrote:
Pretty silly if you as me that the G-Master league is based on frequency of play an hidden MMR, instead of actual achievements.
Winning games to get a high MMR is an actual achievement.
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On April 13 2011 04:07 SichuanPanda wrote:
Pretty silly if you as me that the G-Master league is based on frequency of play an hidden MMR, instead of actual achievements.
Other than MMR, what acheivement is there that measures your skill?
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On April 13 2011 04:15 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 04:07 SichuanPanda wrote:
Pretty silly if you as me that the G-Master league is based on frequency of play an hidden MMR, instead of actual achievements. Other than MMR, what acheivement is there that measures your skill?
Winning at LANs or tournaments?
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On April 13 2011 04:19 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 04:15 Zorkmid wrote:On April 13 2011 04:07 SichuanPanda wrote:
Pretty silly if you as me that the G-Master league is based on frequency of play an hidden MMR, instead of actual achievements. Other than MMR, what acheivement is there that measures your skill? Winning at LANs or tournaments?
How is B.net 2.0 supposed to keep track of how many final custom games you win?
edit: You need to realize that this is for the LADDER.
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On April 13 2011 04:19 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 04:15 Zorkmid wrote:On April 13 2011 04:07 SichuanPanda wrote:
Pretty silly if you as me that the G-Master league is based on frequency of play an hidden MMR, instead of actual achievements. Other than MMR, what acheivement is there that measures your skill? Winning at LANs or tournaments?
That statement is completely irrelevant. -___-
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GM out in North America, gl hf guys!
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As previously stated whoever makes it in will most likely be there for the entire season. 270 bonus pool really seems a little silly to prevent stagnating, 90 days is by no means a short period of time.
Not like it matters to me, no grandmaster for me anytime soon [read: ever]
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Hooray, can't wait to get home :<
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you have to win to get into gm
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United States12235 Posts
Congrats to the new residents of Warp Prism Oscar, aka the Grandmaster division for NA =)
(Zergling Bravo for SEA)
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Just an fyi the grandmaster league on the NA server has just started to go up. Theres already 13 people on it.
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On April 13 2011 05:00 Piggy wrote:
Just an fyi the grandmaster league on the NA server has just started to go up. Theres already 13 people on it.
there is 4 people in it on my screen :O
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Could you link to someones profile on bnet who is in grandmasters?
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When wiil it start on EU?
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On April 13 2011 05:05 Chr0no wrote:
When wiil it start on EU?
tommorow morning
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On April 12 2011 21:48 Happy Frog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 19:16 youngminii wrote:On April 12 2011 19:03 Chriscras wrote:
Does everyone not realize that your MMR was not reset at the end of season 1?
Therefore, the 200 players placed in GM will be the ones with the highest MMRs across every game of SC2 ever played.
Am I incorrect? Negative, the top 200 list that used to be published in Season 1 every week or so (I'm making the reasonable assumption that it is this list that will be the GM criteria) wasn't dependent on one's MMR at all, it was simply a sliding scale of points depending on your division. I do believe they removed the division factor for season 2 so I'm going to say it's solely based on your points now. This is incorrect, I've been comparing my Div with GM and there's players with enough points that have played a game tonight and have not been promoted into GM. The Blizz blog post also said selection would be based on MMR.
Ooh didn't know that, thanks for the info
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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do u hv to log on to figure out whether u get promoted?
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On April 13 2011 05:29 Antimage wrote:
do u hv to log on to figure out whether u get promoted?
You do indeed. There's only about 50 in the league right now, because the rest haven't logged on.
On US, that is.
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KiWiKaKi 41-6 damn son! Also, lol at CombatEx being 5th in grand masters. There are very few Zergs in GM compared to Terran and Protoss.
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it's more than just logging on, you have to play one more game to be promoted, i believe
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I find it a bit silly that dropping the bonus pool is the only way to get out of the league. So if someone was top 200 the first two weeks of the season, he could basically lose to the point where he's only playing bronze leaguers and still be in grand masters? lol
Either way I'm excited to see who the players will be
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On April 13 2011 05:35 calvincible wrote:
it's more than just logging on, you have to play one more game to be promoted, i believe
Oh, my mistake.
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On April 13 2011 05:35 ffadicted wrote:I find it a bit silly that dropping the bonus pool is the only way to get out of the league. So if someone was top 200 the first two weeks of the season, he could basically lose to the point where he's only playing bronze leaguers and still be in grand masters? lol Either way I'm excited to see who the players will be
lol someone should do this just to mess with blizzard's system. though blizzard would probably ban them for exploiting the system or some crap.
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x_X I haven't even taken the time to play 1v1, now there's no chance to get into GM, looks like you just have to play your ass off for the first 2 weeks.
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On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If all of the top 200 players who have been preselected all play their games right when the league goes live, they will stay in that league for the entire season regardless of performance, as long as they are able to keep their bonus pool below 270. Basically this is to showcase the top 200 players on the server but the activity requirement is there to keep the league from stagnating. If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly.
What would be bad about it fluctuating constantly? I'm all in favor of a more dynamic ladder, the more dynamic the more accurate it is.
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What did blizzard thought when they did the rule, that you won't get dropped out of the grand master league?
It would be ok, if you can only get up to grandmaster league all 4 weeks or something like that ... but that you can only get to grandmaster league while someone dropping isn't good
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What if they made it so 5 or 10 additional players get added to the Grandmaster's league each week.
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On April 12 2011 11:02 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 10:21 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
Such a weird, convoluted system. It's so weird that performance in the first two weeks of the season is the only thing that matters. Since MMR didn't get reset, all the season 1 performance factors into it also. The only reason to have a couple of weeks at the start of Season 2 is to find out who's active for the new season.
Playing for the first two weeks = you're active for the new season?
Also for those saying that GM league is some sort of prize for performing well in Season 1, I don't buy that because I'm pretty sure someone like Idra could have bought a new copy of the game a week ago and still make it to the top 200.
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On April 13 2011 05:37 LetoAtreides82 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If all of the top 200 players who have been preselected all play their games right when the league goes live, they will stay in that league for the entire season regardless of performance, as long as they are able to keep their bonus pool below 270. Basically this is to showcase the top 200 players on the server but the activity requirement is there to keep the league from stagnating. If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly. What would be bad about it fluctuating constantly? I'm all in favor of a more dynamic ladder, the more dynamic the more accurate it is.
Ya that's what I was thinking too. It'd actually be WAY cooler if the league was re-evaluated every two weeks, rather then just the first 2 weeks of every season, considering how long seasons are based on the length of the first one.
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On April 13 2011 05:47 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 05:37 LetoAtreides82 wrote:On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If all of the top 200 players who have been preselected all play their games right when the league goes live, they will stay in that league for the entire season regardless of performance, as long as they are able to keep their bonus pool below 270. Basically this is to showcase the top 200 players on the server but the activity requirement is there to keep the league from stagnating. If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly. What would be bad about it fluctuating constantly? I'm all in favor of a more dynamic ladder, the more dynamic the more accurate it is. Ya that's what I was thinking too. It'd actually be WAY cooler if the league was re-evaluated every two weeks, rather then just the first 2 weeks of every season, considering how long seasons are based on the length of the first one.
I don't believe they're all going to be that long.
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They did say that subsequent seasons are going to be much shorter then the first one. I can't find the source on blizz's site but I definately remember seeing that.
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LA GM is up and running.
Probably went live at the same time of NA, because they are the same server, just with different matchmaking system (segregated players).
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Does anyone have the source where it says you must win to get promoted?
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Your MMR carries over from the previous season, most players only have about 20 games in this season during the last few weeks to 'tweak' their MMR. However, there's no reason it shouldn't be representative as designed from my understanding of the math.
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Yeah NA is live. If you're top 200 you better play a game asap
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On April 13 2011 05:46 LetoAtreides82 wrote:
Playing for the first two weeks = you're active for the new season?
Pretty much, although let's be serious, how many top 200 players are just going to stop playing the game for weeks on end? Some, perhaps, but probably not that many.
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On April 13 2011 06:04 lethal111 wrote:
Does anyone have the source where it says you must win to get promoted?
I've never heard this either.
MMR and sigma are the two factors that place you in a league. You can have a great MMR and a lousy (huge) sigma because you occasionally lose to bronze/silver people, and that'll prevent you from getting above a certain league.
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That being said, you need a game played to change leagues.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
So happy. Promoted!
Started off with 2 wins over master league players, one win vs Grandmaster, one lost vs Grandmaster, then a win vs a master league player to get promoted!!
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On April 13 2011 06:07 Gospadin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:04 lethal111 wrote:
Does anyone have the source where it says you must win to get promoted? I've never heard this either. MMR and sigma are the two factors that place you in a league. You can have a great MMR and a lousy (huge) sigma because you occasionally lose to bronze/silver people, and that'll prevent you from getting above a certain league.
I'm pretty sure it's true. When Master's came out I was reasonably high diamond and people far below me got in on a single won game. I had a terrible day and went 0-6 or something before finally winning one and was immediately put into Master's. This was also with a large # of games played and 0 bonus pool so my sigma should have been really small from the start and my MMR was certaintly always above the required threshold.
It doesn't make sense to promote on a loss. What if you had somehow inflated your rating and were at the start of a 40 game losing streak? Why should it promote you as you fail miserably. With a win the system can say, "well alright he's at LEAST good enough for this promotion"
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I finished 150 last season only to tilt last night and not make GM league... sigh.. players are rewarded for mass gaming in 2 weeks instead of consistancy over the previous season.. makes no sense to me and now I find out that not only did I miss the league I can't ever get into it until season 3.. pretty ridiculous.. I mean how hard is it to play 1 game a day and use bonus pool.. then on top of that you have to be the #1 player in NA outside of masters to get promoted.. rofl
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On April 12 2011 10:20 TheResidentEvil wrote:
I think that locking the top 200 is pretty dumb.
I think making statements like that and not giving arguments is even dumber.
I just hope the GM league will be available to the top pro's who haven't been able to play for the last few weeks because of GSL/MLG/Dreamhack etc.
Will be interesting to see how this GM will develop.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:16 Synapze wrote:
I finished 150 last season only to tilt last night and not make GM league... sigh.. players are rewarded for mass gaming in 2 weeks instead of consistancy over the previous season.. makes no sense to me and now I find out that not only did I miss the league I can't ever get into it until season 3.. pretty ridiculous.. I mean how hard is it to play 1 game a day and use bonus pool.. then on top of that you have to be the #1 player in NA outside of masters to get promoted.. rofl
Well it's not too late, NA GM has only 73 players so far. Try to raise your MMR above the remaining 127 and secure a spot before they can win a game!
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:16 Synapze wrote:
I finished 150 last season only to tilt last night and not make GM league... sigh.. players are rewarded for mass gaming in 2 weeks instead of consistancy over the previous season.. makes no sense to me and now I find out that not only did I miss the league I can't ever get into it until season 3.. pretty ridiculous.. I mean how hard is it to play 1 game a day and use bonus pool.. then on top of that you have to be the #1 player in NA outside of masters to get promoted.. rofl
Not true at all. It's all based on MMR. I just played FnaticMSiKR. He had a record of 15-10 this season and got promoted. Last season he was 1,665pt 232-122 record. He just had to play one game too.
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those of you crying the system is unfair because it locks the league have problems looking around. SC1: after someone lost his qualification to MSL/OSL did he have a chance to go in during the middle of it? NO. Football, Champions League: if you blew your chance to qualify for this season does it matter that you are currently on the top of your domestic table? No, good luck next YEAR.
If there are xxx masters divisions there is no competion. If the absolute leader changes every day or weak there is no competion. Creating a locked limited division with time limit to compete is closest to competition you can get in the current ladder system.
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Pretty hard to get into GM when I can't get SC2 to work T_T. Anyone else having problems patching?
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On April 13 2011 06:16 Synapze wrote:
I finished 150 last season only to tilt last night and not make GM league... sigh.. players are rewarded for mass gaming in 2 weeks instead of consistancy over the previous season.. makes no sense to me and now I find out that not only did I miss the league I can't ever get into it until season 3.. pretty ridiculous.. I mean how hard is it to play 1 game a day and use bonus pool.. then on top of that you have to be the #1 player in NA outside of masters to get promoted.. rofl
i stopped laddering on NA last year, 1600 masters. I got in after 1 game
ur MMR not dat high bro sry
edit: On April 13 2011 06:21 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:16 Synapze wrote:
I finished 150 last season only to tilt last night and not make GM league... sigh.. players are rewarded for mass gaming in 2 weeks instead of consistancy over the previous season.. makes no sense to me and now I find out that not only did I miss the league I can't ever get into it until season 3.. pretty ridiculous.. I mean how hard is it to play 1 game a day and use bonus pool.. then on top of that you have to be the #1 player in NA outside of masters to get promoted.. rofl Not true at all. It's all based on MMR. I just played FnaticMSiKR. He had a record of 15-10 this season and got promoted. Last season he was 1,665pt 232-122 record. He just had to play one game too.
lol sup dood get speed with ur baneling bust next time D:
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question: if i get promoted, can i drop out in the first 2 weeks or something? or just due to inactivity?
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On April 13 2011 06:44 DiaBoLuS wrote:
question: if i get promoted, can i drop out in the first 2 weeks or something? or just due to inactivity?
you drop out if your bonus pool gets to 170-180 or above. So just be active and you keep it for the season.
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kk ty. im ranked 93 atm, but i still dont think i get promoted cause if its only mmr... there are guys with 20 games and 18-2 or so... no idea how this works. god i hate blizzard rating systems, you never know where you stand
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Lol Sorcery is in Grandmasters... wasn't he connected to the Maphack drama a few weeks back?
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On April 13 2011 06:49 Castiel wrote:
Lol Sorcery is in Grandmasters... wasn't he connected to the Maphack drama a few weeks back?
I think so, but Blizzard bans the account and not the person.
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there's a guy thats like 9-10 who was an innactive master's player last season (2100 points but with a 130-90 record) who's in master's.... I dont think blizzard incorporated their "Active player" requirement in the initial placement of people into master's
I bet we'll see a few drop outs over the course of the first weeks of this season.
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Hmm.. somehow got it being only 3800 S1 (200 pool though) and playing like 15 games in season 2. Seems like it's only dependent on MMR which is much different from how top200 always worked.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:04 Alejandrisha wrote:
Hmm.. somehow got it being only 3800 S1 (200 pool though) and playing like 15 games in season 2. Seems like it's only dependent on MMR which is much different from how top200 always worked.
Yes... well... we've established that already =p
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wow david kim in grand masters..blizz hacks!
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I finished last season tanking down to 3700... i spent almost all of beta in top 50, and whenever i was active after launch in the top 150. I quit for a month around 3k masters (top 100 at the time) came back ran to 3900 lost to 3700 before season 2 started( around top 400 maybe )..
Season 2 hit i started out rough getting to top 200 with like 40% win ... finsihed last night with 795 pts good for 115th(finally with positive win % too!) when i logged off. Logged on this morning and won 6 games or so before i got promoted into GM. So working your way in works.
On the other hand my roommate rssinatra spent almost the entire season in top 200, and all of season 2 in top 200, and did not got a promotion. Our mmrs are nearly identical only he never quit for a month, so his was higher a few days ago, having grinded up to 750 after maybe 3 days of s2(top 50).
How this system works is .. strange ?
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On April 13 2011 06:16 Synapze wrote:
I finished 150 last season only to tilt last night and not make GM league... sigh.. players are rewarded for mass gaming in 2 weeks instead of consistancy over the previous season.. makes no sense to me and now I find out that not only did I miss the league I can't ever get into it until season 3.. pretty ridiculous.. I mean how hard is it to play 1 game a day and use bonus pool.. then on top of that you have to be the #1 player in NA outside of masters to get promoted.. rofl
This is exactly same as me lol.... Last season I made it top 200 in the final week after improving alot. Last two weeks have been really good for me I've been playing (and sometimes even beating) some well known players. However the last week and continueing is the start of exam week so im super stressed as it is... Went on huge tilted losing streak trying to get games in to secure a spot in GM... Mass losses and now I have to wait till next season TT...
I think its kind of stupid to have the season locked in for so long. Realistically theres nobody in top 200 right now that at least doesnt play a few games a week no matter what. Even in the event of like a family death, exams, anything... You need very few games to clear the bonus pool requirements...
Then to see some dude with a 9wins 10 losses in grand masters??? LOL
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:09 T.O.P. wrote:
So happy. Promoted!
Started off with 2 wins over master league players, one win vs Grandmaster, one lost vs Grandmaster, then a win vs a master league player to get promoted!!
I think this provides some evidence that blizzard does consider MMR volatilty. My MMR should be at the highest before I lost to the grandmaster player. Yet I get promoted after I beat a masters's level player.
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has any1 got a ss of the NA grandmasters? wanna see how it looks
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United States12235 Posts
On April 13 2011 07:10 LagLovah wrote:
I finished last season tanking down to 3700... i spent almost all of beta in top 50, and whenever i was active after launch in the top 150. I quit for a month around 3k masters (top 100 at the time) came back ran to 3900 lost to 3700 before season 2 started( around top 400 maybe )..
Season 2 hit i started out rough getting to top 200 with like 40% win ... finsihed last night with 795 pts good for 115th(finally with positive win % too!) when i logged off. Logged on this morning and won 6 games or so before i got promoted into GM. So working your way in works.
On the other hand my roommate rssinatra spent almost the entire season in top 200, and all of season 2 in top 200, and did not got a promotion. Our mmrs are nearly identical only he never quit for a month, so his was higher a few days ago, having grinded up to 750 after maybe 3 days of s2(top 50).
How this system works is .. strange ?
Has he won a game since GM league went live? I see 4 wins followed by 3 losses but there's no specific timestamp on the web profiles.
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has anyone been promoted after more then 1 win?qq
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Is Europe Live yet on GM?
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On April 13 2011 07:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:04 Alejandrisha wrote:
Hmm.. somehow got it being only 3800 S1 (200 pool though) and playing like 15 games in season 2. Seems like it's only dependent on MMR which is much different from how top200 always worked. Yes... well... we've established that already =p
Haha sry didn't read later posts!
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On April 13 2011 07:25 Grubby wrote:
Is Europe Live yet on GM?
No
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On April 13 2011 07:25 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:10 LagLovah wrote:
I finished last season tanking down to 3700... i spent almost all of beta in top 50, and whenever i was active after launch in the top 150. I quit for a month around 3k masters (top 100 at the time) came back ran to 3900 lost to 3700 before season 2 started( around top 400 maybe )..
Season 2 hit i started out rough getting to top 200 with like 40% win ... finsihed last night with 795 pts good for 115th(finally with positive win % too!) when i logged off. Logged on this morning and won 6 games or so before i got promoted into GM. So working your way in works.
On the other hand my roommate rssinatra spent almost the entire season in top 200, and all of season 2 in top 200, and did not got a promotion. Our mmrs are nearly identical only he never quit for a month, so his was higher a few days ago, having grinded up to 750 after maybe 3 days of s2(top 50).
How this system works is .. strange ? Has he won a game since GM league went live? I see 4 wins followed by 3 losses but there's no specific timestamp on the web profiles.
Ya he won a couple today after gm went live. Its just odd to me since we have been identical in rating for the last 9 months almost. You would think our MMR is similar.. maybe I just peaked at the right time
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I'd bet if he wins a few more he'll pass someone and be in. Seems to be happening for a few people already.
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I wish blizzard would implement some sort of system to give priority to people who have played more. As it is, you're much better off getting into GM with 30 games played than 300.
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On April 13 2011 07:31 LagLovah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:25 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 13 2011 07:10 LagLovah wrote:
I finished last season tanking down to 3700... i spent almost all of beta in top 50, and whenever i was active after launch in the top 150. I quit for a month around 3k masters (top 100 at the time) came back ran to 3900 lost to 3700 before season 2 started( around top 400 maybe )..
Season 2 hit i started out rough getting to top 200 with like 40% win ... finsihed last night with 795 pts good for 115th(finally with positive win % too!) when i logged off. Logged on this morning and won 6 games or so before i got promoted into GM. So working your way in works.
On the other hand my roommate rssinatra spent almost the entire season in top 200, and all of season 2 in top 200, and did not got a promotion. Our mmrs are nearly identical only he never quit for a month, so his was higher a few days ago, having grinded up to 750 after maybe 3 days of s2(top 50).
How this system works is .. strange ? Has he won a game since GM league went live? I see 4 wins followed by 3 losses but there's no specific timestamp on the web profiles. Ya he won a couple today after gm went live. Its just odd to me since we have been identical in rating for the last 9 months almost. You would think our MMR is similar.. maybe I just peaked at the right time
It really depends. top 200 was only based on points and it was very possible to have people in the top 200 with sub top 200 MMR. I guess we'd need to know how many games he played and win% and his opponents and on and on and on
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On April 13 2011 07:09 backtoback wrote:
wow david kim in grand masters..blizz hacks!
Are there any TL articles or interviews of him? I want to know what his life consists of, I mean he's basically salaried to play the game isn't he?
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On April 13 2011 07:25 Sfydjklm wrote:
has anyone been promoted after more then 1 win?qq
yeah took me about 6 wins and 4 losses, and I was in top 70 pointswise.
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On April 13 2011 07:43 pit__ wrote:
I wish blizzard would implement some sort of system to give priority to people who have played more. As it is, you're much better off getting into GM with 30 games played than 300.
I'm biased because I'm GM with only 25 games, but just because you have 300 games doesn't mean you should be ranked above someone who has 30 games but is better than you. People had thousands of games in iCCup, does that mean they deserve to be A+ for effort? The 300 games should just be treated by the player as something that is helping them improve
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Good to see Sorcery in GM league =/
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On April 13 2011 07:56 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:43 pit__ wrote:
I wish blizzard would implement some sort of system to give priority to people who have played more. As it is, you're much better off getting into GM with 30 games played than 300. I'm biased because I'm GM with only 25 games, but just because you have 300 games doesn't mean you should be ranked above someone who has 30 games but is better than you. People had thousands of games in iCCup, does that mean they deserve to be A+ for effort? The 300 games should just be treated by the player as something that is helping them improve
I think he is referring to the fact that you can make a new account and achieve a very high mmr quickly, then stop playing to preserve it, giving you advantage into new leagues... by having a minimum game requirement it forces people who arent at their true mmr to play enough to achieve it.
This probably only affects a handful of people, but I can understand his point
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tyler, lzgamer and destiny have played games and not got in yet
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On April 13 2011 07:25 Sfydjklm wrote:
has anyone been promoted after more then 1 win?qq
I surrendered one game and I didn't get in
Guess I'll just wait for season 3 then ><
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took me 3 wins to get in. was hoping I would get promoted off a loss but it didnt happen... D:
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If you enter GM league do you still can play against Masters/Diamonds while laddering?
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CombatEX on GM league
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On April 12 2011 09:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? If all of the top 200 players who have been preselected all play their games right when the league goes live, they will stay in that league for the entire season regardless of performance, as long as they are able to keep their bonus pool below 270. Basically this is to showcase the top 200 players on the server but the activity requirement is there to keep the league from stagnating. If it were just the top 200 then the bottom ~70-80ish slots would probably be fluctuating constantly.
Yeah, that's true.
However I'm somewhat dissatisfied with it because if players aren't laddering like beasts now, they won't be able to make it into grandmaster
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On April 13 2011 07:56 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:43 pit__ wrote:
I wish blizzard would implement some sort of system to give priority to people who have played more. As it is, you're much better off getting into GM with 30 games played than 300. I'm biased because I'm GM with only 25 games, but just because you have 300 games doesn't mean you should be ranked above someone who has 30 games but is better than you. People had thousands of games in iCCup, does that mean they deserve to be A+ for effort? The 300 games should just be treated by the player as something that is helping them improve
Holy shit, you're grandmaster?
Didn't expect that >.> (well, considering how well you do at everything else)
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On April 13 2011 07:56 Vei wrote:
Good to see Sorcery in GM league =/
Frown, really? Didn't he get B&? Or was that iGware
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On April 13 2011 08:19 whiterabbit wrote:
If you enter GM league do you still can play against Masters/Diamonds while laddering?
Yes, you do.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:16 GenesisX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:25 Sfydjklm wrote:
has anyone been promoted after more then 1 win?qq I surrendered one game and I didn't get in Guess I'll just wait for season 3 then ><
You have to win.
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On April 13 2011 08:22 MangoTango wrote:Frown, really? Didn't he get B&? Or was that iGware
really.
he's bm as fuck in 4v4 btw, encountered him a few days ago. kids a raging faggot and still is in GM league, thx blizz.
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On April 13 2011 08:22 DreamScaR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:19 whiterabbit wrote:
If you enter GM league do you still can play against Masters/Diamonds while laddering? Yes, you do.
Thanks!
On April 13 2011 08:27 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:22 MangoTango wrote:On April 13 2011 07:56 Vei wrote:
Good to see Sorcery in GM league =/ Frown, really? Didn't he get B&? Or was that iGware really. he's bm as fuck in 4v4 btw, encountered him a few days ago. kids a raging faggot and still is in GM league, thx blizz.
Yeah, Blizzard should totally rank players by their good manners. I would be top200 for sure then! :D
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yea idk if u missed it but hes a known maphacker who maphacked to rank1 on a diff account
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minigun isnt in either despite playing a few games
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I looked at the race stats, and I laughed, else I would cry. Dun worry nothing is imba
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when its supposed to hit EU?
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On April 13 2011 08:42 ShLiM wrote:
when its supposed to hit EU?
Tomorrow morning after the weekly maintenance I think.
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Nice post, like seeing the race breakdown and country break down on the updates.
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On April 13 2011 08:56 Vincere wrote:Nice post, like seeing the race breakdown and country break down on the updates.
Assload of people ive never heard of, more so than i expected
thats cool i guess
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FXOSheth hold #1 all day today good for him! But look at mOOnGLaDe, 23-1 LOL.
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@Frack: Yes Minigun is in Grandmaster as "ROOTMinigun"
Yeah, disappointing to see Sorcery (known hacker) on the list as well as his aka "LaTeGaMe". (Both random race accounts). Blizzard dropped the ball giving atleast 2 spots away to hackers
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On April 13 2011 09:16 dmillz wrote:
FXOSheth hold #1 all day today good for him! But look at mOOnGLaDe, 23-1 LOL.
23-1 on the SEA server......
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Up to 150 now! 50 more spots are left for the taking.
Current Numbers
 64  38  42  5
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Is it just me or does anyone else see dayvie on there twice, at rank 152, and 150?
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Those numbers really point out which race is currently doing the best (on average) at the high levels! Where can the information be found on number of players of each race?
I don't think protoss is necessarily imba, simply that RIGHT NOW they have the most advanced metagame and most refined BO's, undoubtedly this is in response to the fact that terran was so strong at release (and zerg was strong in beta). I expect that now that protoss is doing so well, the terran/zerg metagame will improve, and will start doing better again. But I would prefer it if protoss just got nerfed
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Activity Rule
Grandmaster players remain in Grandmaster League until the end of the season. If your bonus pool accumulates to 180 (2 weeks' worth), you are automatically removed from Grandmaster League and a new player will take your spot. This is the only way to get removed from this league.
I was hopeful, I gave Blizz credit that maybe they'll make some revisions about the algorithm so that grandmasters will actually mean something, I argued for them while they scoffed and told to to look at how inaccurate the leagues are now but I was like I trust blizz to do this, but not, this is what they give me for my faith T_T
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Artosis saying he didn't make it in yet even after being placed 80th on the us server, is the list complete or are there still spots open?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 10:04 Fearlezz wrote:
Artosis saying he didn't make it in yet even after being placed 80th on the us server, is the list complete or are there still spots open?
162 spots filled now. #80 by points (yesterday) is definitely not enough. sjArtosis has 821 points right now. I think he needs to win 5-6 straight to get to 900pts if he wants to make it in. His MMR isn't high enough. It didn't help that battlenet matched him up with SixjaxTerran on backwater gutch (who he lost to).
Artosis so far today.
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Is there a way to view GM league even though you aren't in it, and don't have a friend who's in it? I can't currently check.
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On April 13 2011 10:34 Razith wrote:
Is there a way to view GM league even though you aren't in it, and don't have a friend who's in it? I can't currently check.
you either have to be logged into the site or ingame to check now, which is kinda annoying since you could check top 200 without being logged in before.
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On April 13 2011 10:35 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 10:34 Razith wrote:
Is there a way to view GM league even though you aren't in it, and don't have a friend who's in it? I can't currently check. you either have to be logged into the site or ingame to check now, which is kinda annoying since you could check top 200 without being logged in before.
You do?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2412757/1/FXOSheth/ladder/41471#current-rank
Or am I missing the point? I'm not logged into battle.net and I can see it fine.
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People who think seasons will only be 2 months long clearly haven't played WoW...
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Has anyone else noticed that Sorcery, who admitted to hacking on this forum and whose average APM is around 40 (if I'm not mistaken), is in grand master?
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On April 13 2011 10:43 random user wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 10:35 OrangeSoda wrote:On April 13 2011 10:34 Razith wrote:
Is there a way to view GM league even though you aren't in it, and don't have a friend who's in it? I can't currently check. you either have to be logged into the site or ingame to check now, which is kinda annoying since you could check top 200 without being logged in before. You do? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2412757/1/FXOSheth/ladder/41471#current-rankOr am I missing the point? I'm not logged into battle.net and I can see it fine.
is there a way to check without checking a top 200 players profile?
edit: nvm apparently you can check anyones profile and click grandmasters league.
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On April 13 2011 10:50 Doodsmack wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that Sorcery, who admitted to hacking on this forum and whose average APM is around 40 (if I'm not mistaken), is in grand master?
I was going to post the same thing... that guy should have been banned long time ago, yet blizzard did nothing
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On April 13 2011 10:35 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 10:34 Razith wrote:
Is there a way to view GM league even though you aren't in it, and don't have a friend who's in it? I can't currently check. you either have to be logged into the site or ingame to check now, which is kinda annoying since you could check top 200 without being logged in before.
Sorry I should of been more specific.
Is there a way to check in-game without being in it / having a friend in it. If there is how do you go about it?
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On April 13 2011 10:56 BasharMentat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 10:50 Doodsmack wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that Sorcery, who admitted to hacking on this forum and whose average APM is around 40 (if I'm not mistaken), is in grand master? I was going to post the same thing... that guy should have been banned long time ago, yet blizzard did nothing
And I'm told that Sorcery has a second account in GM - LaTeGaMe.
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On April 13 2011 10:50 SqueamishCow wrote:
People who think seasons will only be 2 months long clearly haven't played WoW...
While this is somewhat true, I don't think it will be comparable as in WoW you have to completely gear up for the new season, then with all the new gear, compete. Also, WoW is getting old now.
Compared to SC2, their baby, on the front of eSports, which doesn't require all the gearing up, will probably rotate sooner. They'll probably go in some sort of rotation:
-Start new season
-2 weeks before GM opens
-X(6-8?) weeks before league lock.
-X(3-4?) weeks before end of season.
-New map pool released
-X weeks of exhibition games (to familiarize).
-(start at top)
This would make the most sense to me.
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On April 13 2011 10:50 SqueamishCow wrote:
People who think seasons will only be 2 months long clearly haven't played WoW...
The reason is blizzard wants to release arena seasons with new raids, which take a while to make new gear for both raiding and arena + the raiding content. So you cant really compare it
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On April 13 2011 10:50 SqueamishCow wrote:
People who think seasons will only be 2 months long clearly haven't played WoW...
New season on WoW requires new tier on PvE content and gear which is not fast to develop.
New season on SC2 requires... deciding when is it going to happen and just do it.
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On April 12 2011 09:06 Bean54 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week? I have the same question, please answer excalibur, thanks.
im pretty sure it will still be able to have ppl fall out and new players come in the the mmrs for the ones trying to get in get higher than the ones already in.
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I still don't believe people can't get demoted if they fall too much on MMR, so I'll wait and see with my own eyes, but the blog Blizzard made about it really only indicates one way to get demoted: getting a bonus pool higher than 180.
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Edited to remove a point that several other people made. Should have read ALL the replies before posting, sorry.
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I kinda prefer that you can't be demoted. It's such a huge stress getting into the damn league in the first place. Lacing every ladder game with a risk of losing your position would take a lot of enjoyment out of the game - for me anyway.
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so i have to play 10 games tomorrow probably... makes it even more exiting if i get in or not oO
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On April 13 2011 11:15 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 10:50 SqueamishCow wrote:
People who think seasons will only be 2 months long clearly haven't played WoW... New season on WoW requires new tier on PvE content and gear which is not fast to develop. New season on SC2 requires... deciding when is it going to happen and just do it.
True, but look how long s1 was -- 6 months.
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On April 13 2011 12:46 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 11:15 SDream wrote:On April 13 2011 10:50 SqueamishCow wrote:
People who think seasons will only be 2 months long clearly haven't played WoW... New season on WoW requires new tier on PvE content and gear which is not fast to develop. New season on SC2 requires... deciding when is it going to happen and just do it. True, but look how long s1 was -- 6 months.
they were probably waiting on the grandmaster league etc etc before they made a new season
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loving how hackers like ByMGoon get in no problem.
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This just made me more confused. What's the difference between Masters and Grandmasters?
The way I understand it, Masters league is for the top municipal players whereas Grandmasters is the top 200 per continent or world-wide? Please enlighten me.
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On April 13 2011 11:15 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 10:50 SqueamishCow wrote:
People who think seasons will only be 2 months long clearly haven't played WoW... New season on WoW requires new tier on PvE content and gear which is not fast to develop. New season on SC2 requires... deciding when is it going to happen and just do it.
Actually new season on WoW would also only require just doing it. Point here is Blizzard doesn't do new seasons on their own, they have to release some major patch along with it. No reason s1 needed to be so long. I'd be very surprised if s2 is <4 months.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 13 2011 12:57 red.venom wrote:
loving how hackers like ByMGoon get in no problem.
Email Blizzard with the replay or PM it to me or something and I'll forward it. I think when it comes to the 200 most visible players on the ladder Blizzard will be pretty quick to take action.
I don't want to hear about Sorcery though. He's admitted that he hacked on the iGware account but that his Sorcery account is clean, and that iGware account was instantly banned. I presume that whoever banned iGware also took a look at Sorcery, so unless you have incontrovertible evidence that he's still hacking on either Sorcery or LaTeGaMe, stop mentioning it.
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so grandmaster league is pretty much the league that is actually worth bragging about now? seeing as how diamond and even masters are not all that impressive anymore.
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On April 13 2011 13:36 Ballistixz wrote:
so grandmaster league is pretty much the league that is actually worth bragging about now? seeing as how diamond and even masters are not all that impressive anymore.
Diamond and masters were never impressive....
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On April 13 2011 13:27 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 12:57 red.venom wrote:
loving how hackers like ByMGoon get in no problem. Email Blizzard with the replay or PM it to me or something and I'll forward it. I think when it comes to the 200 most visible players on the ladder Blizzard will be pretty quick to take action. I don't want to hear about Sorcery though. He's admitted that he hacked on the iGware account but that his Sorcery account is clean, and that iGware account was instantly banned. I presume that whoever banned iGware also took a look at Sorcery, so unless you have incontrovertible evidence that he's still hacking on either Sorcery or LaTeGaMe, stop mentioning it.
You think someone with 40 apm could make it into GM?
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looking at the names it seems as though it pays to cheese your way into it.
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On April 13 2011 13:47 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 13:27 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 13 2011 12:57 red.venom wrote:
loving how hackers like ByMGoon get in no problem. Email Blizzard with the replay or PM it to me or something and I'll forward it. I think when it comes to the 200 most visible players on the ladder Blizzard will be pretty quick to take action. I don't want to hear about Sorcery though. He's admitted that he hacked on the iGware account but that his Sorcery account is clean, and that iGware account was instantly banned. I presume that whoever banned iGware also took a look at Sorcery, so unless you have incontrovertible evidence that he's still hacking on either Sorcery or LaTeGaMe, stop mentioning it. You think someone with 40 apm could make it into GM?
Whats funny, is that even with that 40 apm he is nodoubt leagues ahead of you.
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On April 13 2011 13:27 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 12:57 red.venom wrote:
loving how hackers like ByMGoon get in no problem. Email Blizzard with the replay or PM it to me or something and I'll forward it. I think when it comes to the 200 most visible players on the ladder Blizzard will be pretty quick to take action. I don't want to hear about Sorcery though. He's admitted that he hacked on the iGware account but that his Sorcery account is clean, and that iGware account was instantly banned. I presume that whoever banned iGware also took a look at Sorcery, so unless you have incontrovertible evidence that he's still hacking on either Sorcery or LaTeGaMe, stop mentioning it.
I just googled him and watched it:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/157194-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
map hacks indeed.
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179 spots filled up .. no Idra and no Artosis. Maybe This is blizzards punishment for imbalanced
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I just got promoted into GM league, Europe o.o!
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lol
CombatEx is top 4 in NA
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On April 13 2011 14:18 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 13:47 Doodsmack wrote:On April 13 2011 13:27 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 13 2011 12:57 red.venom wrote:
loving how hackers like ByMGoon get in no problem. Email Blizzard with the replay or PM it to me or something and I'll forward it. I think when it comes to the 200 most visible players on the ladder Blizzard will be pretty quick to take action. I don't want to hear about Sorcery though. He's admitted that he hacked on the iGware account but that his Sorcery account is clean, and that iGware account was instantly banned. I presume that whoever banned iGware also took a look at Sorcery, so unless you have incontrovertible evidence that he's still hacking on either Sorcery or LaTeGaMe, stop mentioning it. You think someone with 40 apm could make it into GM? Whats funny, is that even with that 40 apm he is nodoubt leagues ahead of you.
Given that this is your fourth post I'm gonna assume you're one of his friends.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 12:20 pit__ wrote:
I kinda prefer that you can't be demoted. It's such a huge stress getting into the damn league in the first place. Lacing every ladder game with a risk of losing your position would take a lot of enjoyment out of the game - for me anyway.
This is exactly how I feel about it. The last feel days were quite exciting too. I saw so much people online massing games because they want to get in.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=8766771
On April 13 2011 14:39 Chicane_ wrote:179 spots filled up .. no Idra and no Artosis. Maybe This is blizzards punishment for imbalanced
Idra hasn't played a single game yet. He has a spot reserved for him don't worry.
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Oh, they're in there the whole season?
I guess this is good for them, but not so much for the rest of us.
Hopefully the season will start to be shorter like Browder planned (3-4 or so per year) =D
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watching drewbie's stream now. I am surprised he still can't make it.
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I really dont understand or like the GM system. For example, how can some great players not make it, while MaryLand is number 11 on EU GM right now with almost 300 games played these past 2 weeks... last season he was a 2800 diamond player... somehow he inflated his MMR high enough to enter GM during these 2 weeks.
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MMR = skill.
The only way to "inflate it" is to get better...
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how in the hell is some guy named supermenke in GM with a losing record and catz isn't in it at all?
I understand "win/loss doesnt mean a thing" but lets be real. Do you really think SuperMenke is better than Catz?
Edit: I'm just wondering how in the world blizz's mmr system measured that SuperMenke has higher mmr than Catz.
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On April 13 2011 15:58 Joedaddy wrote:
how in the hell is some guy named supermenke in GM with a losing record and catz isn't in it at all?
I understand "win/loss doesnt mean a thing" but lets be real. Do you really think SuperMenke is better than Catz?
Edit: I'm just wondering how in the world blizz's mmr system measured that SuperMenke has higher mmr than Catz.
SuperMenke was only about 2k points with 64% win ratio in season 1. So he had a good MMR coming from there, but that coupled with his bad winrate so far I fail to see how he's top 200 MMR or however the system decides to place in grandmasters.
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i dont like the system
if you eg. if play in korea for a ladder season and then you move to america, you have to wait 2 ladder seasons to reach grandmaster
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On April 13 2011 17:43 Contrail wrote:
i dont like the system
if you eg. if play in korea for a ladder season and then you move to america, you have to wait 2 ladder seasons to reach grandmaster
I wonder if it actually matters. If you get good enough, you will face grandmaster players whole the time, while you are still in masters. I don't think good players care about their league. Ladder is decent practice for them, but that should be it.
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All I know is vileHasHe didn't make GM and he's ranked 7th on sc2ranks AND he was top40 according to the last top 200 blizzard post.
With all the cheese happening in masters league last night, it's absolutely ridiculous how this GM placement happened. Blizzard HAS to have a games-played floor for GM otherwise this whole thing is pointless. What's the point of a top 200 league when players who have been top 200 since the list started haven't made GM?
This whole fiasco is just another reason why I don't understand MMR being hidden, ESPECIALLY in masters league. Does anyone else think the points system is completely and utterly pointless?
EDIT: You can also add thisisjimmy to the growing list of people that didn't make GM (as of this posting) and should have.
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On April 13 2011 17:52 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 17:43 Contrail wrote:
i dont like the system
if you eg. if play in korea for a ladder season and then you move to america, you have to wait 2 ladder seasons to reach grandmaster I wonder if it actually matters. If you get good enough, you will face grandmaster players whole the time, while you are still in masters. I don't think good players care about their league. Ladder is decent practice for them, but that should be it.
They could use grandmaster as pre-reqs to tournaments, or more likely as qualifying for battle-net finals at blizzcon.
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Wanna know how you can tell this GM system is jank? CombatEX got in it! HOW THE HELL does CombatEX get in something like Grand Master.
Just sayin', there are TONS of better players in the North American server!
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Darkforce is streaming as of right now and isn't getting in. Oh blizzard you so full of mysteries!
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What's wrong with just having a top 200 ladder based on MMR.. This is GM league so dumb and unintuitive , prone to abuse and in no way representative of the best players in their respective regions because of it's innate flaws and ease of being abused.
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On April 13 2011 18:24 Nihilnovi wrote:
What's wrong with just having a top 200 ladder based on MMR.. This is GM league so dumb and unintuitive , prone to abuse and in no way representative of the best players in their respective regions because of it's innate flaws and ease of being abused.
dont get what u are trying to say here, why is it dumb? why is it bad if its based on MMR? or are u just angry becouse u didnt got in.....?
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On April 13 2011 18:28 pycho wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 18:24 Nihilnovi wrote:
What's wrong with just having a top 200 ladder based on MMR.. This is GM league so dumb and unintuitive , prone to abuse and in no way representative of the best players in their respective regions because of it's innate flaws and ease of being abused. dont get what u are trying to say here, why is it dumb? why is it bad if its based on MMR? or are u just angry becouse u didnt got in.....?
You are either trolling me or you don't know how to read(not ment in a offensive way), in either case, I WANT a top 200 ladder based on MMR, not a GM league that updates 1 time a season.
To be more specific, a real live top 200 ladder page updated LIVE based on MMR.
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I was lauthing looking at the european gm so far, many many top players are out, i feel like blizzard is failing once again
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CombatEX is 6th in Grandmasters ... what the fuck?
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there's someone on the NA GM with a 9 win 10 loss record. Blizzard, you're killing me.
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im sure blizzard will change it in time
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On April 13 2011 18:42 Contrail wrote:
im sure blizzard will change it in time
I don't think they're going to change anything for this season, which means we have 3 months of a pointless GM league.
Before anyone starts: Yes, I know there's some in there that deserve it, but it's still pointless if it's not a true depiction of top 200 skill level.
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On April 13 2011 10:57 Razith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 10:35 OrangeSoda wrote:On April 13 2011 10:34 Razith wrote:
Is there a way to view GM league even though you aren't in it, and don't have a friend who's in it? I can't currently check. you either have to be logged into the site or ingame to check now, which is kinda annoying since you could check top 200 without being logged in before. Sorry I should of been more specific. Is there a way to check in-game without being in it / having a friend in it. If there is how do you go about it?
Yeah, of course, go to your Leagues tab, you have button there to go to GrandMasters .
Special courtesy of Blizzard!
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i think what might be happening with these last few spots is that they are reserved by some players with very high MMR (read idra) and that is why other high level players like darkforce cannot seem to get in. he would have to play enough and win enough to have his MMR rise very very high i think to surpass the mmr levels of the last reserved spots, its the only explanation i think of some people playing right now and not getting in
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Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much?
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much?
They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one.
People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D
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Maybe the best _ladder_ strategy doesn't involve playing for the longest possible macro game every single time. What we could be seeing is that some ratio of cheese to keep your opponent from simply pure macro early game is optimal.
Hypothesis
The best players will cheese frequently.
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On April 13 2011 19:09 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much? They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one. People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D
But still, its kinda strange how it works. I woke up today, won one game. No promotion. Then I lost two in a row and thought i was screwed. But then I won one more and got promoted. Didn't understand it.
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On April 13 2011 18:35 rjT. wrote:
I was lauthing looking at the european gm so far, many many top players are out, i feel like blizzard is failing once again
u know that gm on eu went live 2hours ago? not every pro player plays in the morning, there are plenty of spots left for the pros and they will get them after they play 1 game so they are not "OUT"
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Imo this whole "get in and be safe immediately" was a huge mistake since it's way too complicated to assure that every one who deserves to gets in really does.
There should have been a period of - say - one week where players could get in and out of GM, after this week the league could have been locked. This way all these lucky players who get the "low" MMR spots would have had a much harder time staying in.
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Well, I get that a lot of people complain that maybe barely got top 200.
But for example how someone like darkforce can't get into GM, a person who is like one of the best zergs of those that actively play there, and the guy was like the first/second to get over 1k points.
Something seems kinda wrong there oO
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cheesed socke, won and im in!
happy me^^
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On April 13 2011 17:52 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 17:43 Contrail wrote:
i dont like the system
if you eg. if play in korea for a ladder season and then you move to america, you have to wait 2 ladder seasons to reach grandmaster I wonder if it actually matters. If you get good enough, you will face grandmaster players whole the time, while you are still in masters. I don't think good players care about their league. Ladder is decent practice for them, but that should be it.
They will care if blizz suddenly announces that blizzcon is for GM's only or something
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On April 13 2011 19:09 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much? They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one. People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D
True Beyonder! frustrated people need to stop complaining. I have played alot of 1 vs 1 ladder on EU and always have been between rank 100/300. Most of the players i see in GM so far i know from the ladder and all belong in GM. Remember that spots are still reserved for players with the highest MMR so the best players will appear over time. And crying about ranks? seriously? GM is barely a day old... did Master League rankings reflect the top after one day?
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On April 13 2011 19:11 jjd323 wrote:
Maybe the best _ladder_ strategy doesn't involve playing for the longest possible macro game every single time. What we could be seeing is that some ratio of cheese to keep your opponent from simply pure macro early game is optimal.
Hypothesis
The best players will cheese frequently.
just to remind you: each player you face as a top 200 player you know and you know his style.
1 strat / race doesnt work on that level anymore.
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On April 13 2011 19:25 Max_Muller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 19:09 Beyonder wrote:On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much? They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one. People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D True Beyonder! frustrated people need to stop complaining. I have played alot of 1 vs 1 ladder on EU and always have been between rank 100/300. Most of the players i see in GM so far i know from the ladder and all belong in GM. Remember that spots are still reserved for players with the highest MMR so the best players will appear over time. And crying about ranks? seriously? GM is barely a day old... did Master League rankings reflect the top after one day?
neither did it in the end completly^^
but the ranking is not meaningless as well
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On April 13 2011 19:09 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much? They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one. People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D
Each slot has an mmr value assigned to it.
the lower values were snatched up quickly, so even players that may be better than the lower end of the GM league have higher MMR's now, they are still lower than the availiable remaning slots which are probably assigned to extremely high MMR values for pros that have yet to play their placement.
Therefore, it isn't a question of if oyu're good enough for most people from 100-200, its just simply they were too late
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eeeek, i tilted at 750 a day before and now im rank 277, thats no fun...
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Do my eyes deceive me or is combatex on there?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 19:33 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 19:09 Beyonder wrote:On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much? They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one. People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D Each slot has an mmr value assigned to it. the lower values were snatched up quickly, so even players that may be better than the lower end of the GM league have higher MMR's now, they are still lower than the availiable remaning slots which are probably assigned to extremely high MMR values for pros that have yet to play their placement. Therefore, it isn't a question of if oyu're good enough for most people from 100-200, its just simply they were too late
It's their fault for not having a top 200 mmr in the first place. If you have a top 200 mmr, you eun one game and you're in. If you play your first game late, then someone surpassed you and you're not top 200 in mmr anyways. I don't get why you guys are complaining. Mmr is the best way to measure pure skill. It doesn't reward players for mass gaming.
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If Darkforce doesn't get in, a kitten will die. Wtf, top 5 zerg player in Europe, ladders his behind off and hasn't been promoted yet (he's streaming).
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 21:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
Do my eyes deceive me or is combatex on there?
Combat-ex has been on the top of the NA ladder for a long time.
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On April 13 2011 21:20 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 19:33 ch33psh33p wrote:On April 13 2011 19:09 Beyonder wrote:On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much? They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one. People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D Each slot has an mmr value assigned to it. the lower values were snatched up quickly, so even players that may be better than the lower end of the GM league have higher MMR's now, they are still lower than the availiable remaning slots which are probably assigned to extremely high MMR values for pros that have yet to play their placement. Therefore, it isn't a question of if oyu're good enough for most people from 100-200, its just simply they were too late It's their fault for not having a top 200 mmr in the first place. If you have a top 200 mmr, you eun one game and you're in. If you play your first game late, then someone surpassed you and you're not top 200 in mmr anyways. I don't get why you guys are complaining. Mmr is the best way to measure pure skill. It doesn't reward players for mass gaming.
It's the best way to measure people that care about ladder. I'm pretty sure many top players use ladder for practice purposes, to test new stuff, while some other player that doesn't go to tournaments and doesn't win anything always plays to win on ladder even though he would get rapped at a tournament by those players that aren't on GM.
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artosis is power laddering like a madman atm
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On April 13 2011 21:20 sleepingdog wrote:
If Darkforce doesn't get in, a kitten will die. Wtf, top 5 zerg player in Europe, ladders his behind off and hasn't been promoted yet (he's streaming).
He's lost a lot recently, he was the first to 1k, but now he's in the 800 range.
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On April 13 2011 21:25 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 21:20 sleepingdog wrote:
If Darkforce doesn't get in, a kitten will die. Wtf, top 5 zerg player in Europe, ladders his behind off and hasn't been promoted yet (he's streaming). He's lost a lot recently, he was the first to 1k, but now he's in the 800 range.
While I'm typing he just won against Welmu (rank 61st grandmaster)...
Anyways, I just wanted to point out that this system is quite stupid. There should've been an extended period where people can get in an out. After, say, a week GM should've been locked. Filling up the low-MMR-spots super fast, just because some ppl were not playing doesn't make any sense.
Darkforce doesn't get in because he would be of worse MMR...he doesn't get in because the mid/low-MMR spots seem to be taken. Therefore he has to get a really high MMR to get one of the "reserved" spots.
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I checked some profiles and i think its bugged. Check YaA current season's record and last season's.
Current season is 6-5 and last season was 3700 with over 1300 games. Am i missing something?
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200 people isnt enough IMO.
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On April 13 2011 21:20 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 19:33 ch33psh33p wrote:On April 13 2011 19:09 Beyonder wrote:On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much? They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one. People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D Each slot has an mmr value assigned to it. the lower values were snatched up quickly, so even players that may be better than the lower end of the GM league have higher MMR's now, they are still lower than the availiable remaning slots which are probably assigned to extremely high MMR values for pros that have yet to play their placement. Therefore, it isn't a question of if oyu're good enough for most people from 100-200, its just simply they were too late It's their fault for not having a top 200 mmr in the first place. If you have a top 200 mmr, you eun one game and you're in. If you play your first game late, then someone surpassed you and you're not top 200 in mmr anyways. I don't get why you guys are complaining. Mmr is the best way to measure pure skill. It doesn't reward players for mass gaming.
The MMR from 100-400 is extremely packed, it was definetly more of a first come first serve basis, versus a, just having the high enouhg MMR.
I even checked out your account, if you played today, you would not be getting in. Don't act all high and mighty when you simply played early and stole one of hte lowerrated MMR slots. Its a flawed system, but no need to pretend its all perfect just becaus you landed a spot.
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On April 13 2011 18:00 Contrail wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 17:52 Dente wrote:On April 13 2011 17:43 Contrail wrote:
i dont like the system
if you eg. if play in korea for a ladder season and then you move to america, you have to wait 2 ladder seasons to reach grandmaster I wonder if it actually matters. If you get good enough, you will face grandmaster players whole the time, while you are still in masters. I don't think good players care about their league. Ladder is decent practice for them, but that should be it. They could use grandmaster as pre-reqs to tournaments, or more likely as qualifying for battle-net finals at blizzcon.
They will never do it, since they lock it at the start of the season. Many topplayers will not be able to get into gm league.
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On April 13 2011 21:56 ciaNo wrote:
I checked some profiles and i think its bugged. Check YaA current season's record and last season's.
Current season is 6-5 and last season was 3700 with over 1300 games. Am i missing something?
Can't believe he is masters whereas Stephano isn't.
He is kinda decent but nothing special ... and definitly not GM material lol
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On April 13 2011 22:42 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 21:56 ciaNo wrote:
I checked some profiles and i think its bugged. Check YaA current season's record and last season's.
Current season is 6-5 and last season was 3700 with over 1300 games. Am i missing something? Can't believe he is masters whereas Stephano isn't. He is kinda decent but nothing special ... and definitly not GM material lol
Stephano made it in about 25 minutes ago now
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Seriously the way they are doing this is beyond stupid... you get "locked in"... why? I can't even imagine a reason for this. Also, i have a feeling that their little "moving average MMR" thing plays too big of a role... if one guy loses 10 games in a row that doesn't mean he isn't one of the best players in the world or anything. But that moving average MMR thing is 100% speculation on my part so who knows. The locked in thing... I really don't like.
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Is the NA grandmaster player list up somewhere?
E: previous page..
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On April 13 2011 23:37 Grettin wrote:
Is the NA grandmaster player list up somewhere?
Just check sc2ranks?
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gm league is the biggest mess ever in eu for example atndarkforce doesnt get in there besides his 800 points wtf has blizzard messed up there once again :/
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CatZ not in ? He ladders quite a lot...
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On April 14 2011 00:51 Scrubington wrote:CatZ not in ? He ladders quite a lot...
He may have gotten it recently, I haven't updated NA yet today.. EU has been very active :p
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You know whats funny? There will be more players in GM than masters league itself in LA. If masters league will have any players at all...
But i dont think being GM in LA counts, lol
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On April 13 2011 21:51 DreamScaR wrote:
Also DaBoO is the first person to be on the same list twice on two different accounts (not counting smurfs)
How do you distinguish a "smurf" from someone who's just "on two different accounts?"
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On April 12 2011 09:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:01 Shadowed wrote:
Off the top of my head, it's ~2 bonus points an hour? So it works out to roughly 270 in a week. 1 per 112 minutes, 90 a week.
Weird, you get 112 gas a minute on 1 geyser... Coincidence?
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On April 13 2011 22:15 ch33psh33p wrote:
The MMR from 100-400 is extremely packed, it was definetly more of a first come first serve basis, versus a, just having the high enouhg MMR.
That's not how it works -- the people who have the top 200 MMR moving averages have a spot *reserved* until they either win a little bit and get promoted or until someone surpasses their MMR moving average.
This is why NA still has 11 unfilled spots despite people killing themselves to get in.
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seems like atleast in my division all the people i was sure would get top200 are already promoted. bit surprised some that remain but well..
but tbh overall for me its just another fail . a top200 that isnt real top200 and creates more confusion then anything yet again.
i just dont understand what the hell the blizzard ladderguys are thinking. are they just trying to make the ladder as confusing and uncompetive as possible or are they just bad?
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So technically you get to grand master league in a single season, and tank your record and still be in grand masters for the rest of the season? That's kinda gay
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On April 14 2011 01:14 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 21:51 DreamScaR wrote:
Also DaBoO is the first person to be on the same list twice on two different accounts (not counting smurfs) How do you distinguish a "smurf" from someone who's just "on two different accounts?"
he means accounts he doesnt know about that belong to teh same person.
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On April 14 2011 01:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
seems like atleast in my division all the people i was sure would get top200 are already promoted. bit surprised some that remain but well..
but tbh overall for me its just another fail . a top200 that isnt real top200 and creates more confusion then anything yet again.
i just dont understand what the hell the blizzard ladderguys are thinking. are they just trying to make the ladder as confusing and uncompetive as possible or are they just bad?
It's more like there's a clear goal to get to now. It's cooler to be top 200 of the entire NA than 3400 masters (of like 6000 players). I just wished that there were ways to get into GM that didn't involve a GM not playing for two weeks. DERP, log in once every 13 days and go 1-1. or 0-1, as long as they can.
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On April 14 2011 01:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
but tbh overall for me its just another fail . a top200 that isnt real top200 and creates more confusion then anything yet again.
Using a moving average limits how much turnover there would be anyway, because it takes a long time to budge the moving average.
Anyway, I asked this before, but why is this any different from GSL locking in Code S and Code A for a season? I mean, everyone knows that the Code S list isn't perfect, but I don't see nearly as much complaining about it.
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all i hear is mimimi from ppl who wanna be in and didnt get into.
the only thing i dont get is darkforce, he was top 10 in europe for the last few weeks with 70%+ wins, has like 20 to 10 w/l since gml is up and simply does not get promoted, while others like me with much less points / ratio / MMR did.
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On April 14 2011 01:22 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
but tbh overall for me its just another fail . a top200 that isnt real top200 and creates more confusion then anything yet again. Using a moving average limits how much turnover there would be anyway, because it takes a long time to budge the moving average. Anyway, I asked this before, but why is this any different from GSL locking in Code S and Code A for a season? I mean, everyone knows that the Code S list isn't perfect, but I don't see nearly as much complaining about it.
because if you want to take it seriously you gotta measure time in man-hours.
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On April 14 2011 01:25 DiaBoLuS wrote:
all i hear is mimimi from ppl who wanna be in and didnt get into.
the only thing i dont get is darkforce, he was top 10 in europe for the last few weeks with 70%+ wins, has like 20 to 10 w/l since gml is up and simply does not get promoted, while others like me with much less points / ratio / MMR did.
People want to be motivated to improve. They dont want to wait 8 months for a chance to be rewarded(and then be anxious about the fact that you can get darkforced)
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On April 14 2011 01:28 Sfydjklm wrote:
because if you want to take it seriously you gotta measure time in man-hours.
Pretty sure that the moving average is over "games," not "time," so I think that's what they're already doing. My comment should have read "lot of games" not "long time."
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On April 14 2011 01:30 Sfydjklm wrote:
People want to be motivated to improve. They dont want to wait 8 months for a chance to be rewarded(and then be anxious about the fact that you can get darkforced)
I agree, but to be fair the seasons are going to be closer to 3 months now, not 8.
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On April 14 2011 01:22 supdubdup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
seems like atleast in my division all the people i was sure would get top200 are already promoted. bit surprised some that remain but well..
but tbh overall for me its just another fail . a top200 that isnt real top200 and creates more confusion then anything yet again.
i just dont understand what the hell the blizzard ladderguys are thinking. are they just trying to make the ladder as confusing and uncompetive as possible or are they just bad?
It's more like there's a clear goal to get to now. It's cooler to be top 200 of the entire NA than 3400 masters (of like 6000 players). I just wished that there were ways to get into GM that didn't involve a GM not playing for two weeks. DERP, log in once every 13 days and go 1-1. or 0-1, as long as they can.
If you go 0-1 every week you will fall out of GM in 2 weeks.
[edit] And if you go 1-1 you won't stay forever either.
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On April 14 2011 01:47 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:22 supdubdup wrote:On April 14 2011 01:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
seems like atleast in my division all the people i was sure would get top200 are already promoted. bit surprised some that remain but well..
but tbh overall for me its just another fail . a top200 that isnt real top200 and creates more confusion then anything yet again.
i just dont understand what the hell the blizzard ladderguys are thinking. are they just trying to make the ladder as confusing and uncompetive as possible or are they just bad?
It's more like there's a clear goal to get to now. It's cooler to be top 200 of the entire NA than 3400 masters (of like 6000 players). I just wished that there were ways to get into GM that didn't involve a GM not playing for two weeks. DERP, log in once every 13 days and go 1-1. or 0-1, as long as they can. If you go 0-1 every week you will fall out of GM in 2 weeks. [edit] And if you go 1-1 you won't stay forever either.
What about 2-1?
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On April 14 2011 01:54 oGm`REM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:47 kzn wrote:On April 14 2011 01:22 supdubdup wrote:On April 14 2011 01:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
seems like atleast in my division all the people i was sure would get top200 are already promoted. bit surprised some that remain but well..
but tbh overall for me its just another fail . a top200 that isnt real top200 and creates more confusion then anything yet again.
i just dont understand what the hell the blizzard ladderguys are thinking. are they just trying to make the ladder as confusing and uncompetive as possible or are they just bad?
It's more like there's a clear goal to get to now. It's cooler to be top 200 of the entire NA than 3400 masters (of like 6000 players). I just wished that there were ways to get into GM that didn't involve a GM not playing for two weeks. DERP, log in once every 13 days and go 1-1. or 0-1, as long as they can. If you go 0-1 every week you will fall out of GM in 2 weeks. [edit] And if you go 1-1 you won't stay forever either. What about 2-1?
Then you're starting to get into the zone of games where it depends who you're beating.
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On April 14 2011 01:30 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:25 DiaBoLuS wrote:
all i hear is mimimi from ppl who wanna be in and didnt get into.
the only thing i dont get is darkforce, he was top 10 in europe for the last few weeks with 70%+ wins, has like 20 to 10 w/l since gml is up and simply does not get promoted, while others like me with much less points / ratio / MMR did. People want to be motivated to improve. They dont want to wait 8 months for a chance to be rewarded(and then be anxious about the fact that you can get darkforced)
Pretty much this. Even tho its probably going to be 3 months (no one has confirmed the length of the new season as far as I know?). Its just stupid that people are getting into gm league with under 100 games played total in both season, and being 6-10 in this one.
While people like darkforce was on top of the ladder last season, has 75% winratio, and over 300 games played this season alone, does not get in.
There might be a system behind this somewhere, but since we are left in the dark, its frustrating for everyone who has been working their asses off, and then gets beat by someone who was mediocre last season, and has been sipping martini for the last two weeks.
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On April 14 2011 01:22 supdubdup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
seems like atleast in my division all the people i was sure would get top200 are already promoted. bit surprised some that remain but well..
but tbh overall for me its just another fail . a top200 that isnt real top200 and creates more confusion then anything yet again.
i just dont understand what the hell the blizzard ladderguys are thinking. are they just trying to make the ladder as confusing and uncompetive as possible or are they just bad?
It's more like there's a clear goal to get to now. It's cooler to be top 200 of the entire NA than 3400 masters (of like 6000 players). I just wished that there were ways to get into GM that didn't involve a GM not playing for two weeks. DERP, log in once every 13 days and go 1-1. or 0-1, as long as they can.
no prob with top200 league. but how they implemented this and the "lock" already defeats the purpose and makes it more of a top 100.
just like with evrything else in the sc2 ladder the basic idea is ok but how they did it is just bad and super confusing .
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did artosis just give up? Region: #113 for sjArtosis
nearly all GM spots are taken and he's 113 in Masters league.. not good
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You will need to play alot more than 3 games every 13 days... If you you played 5 games cry 14 days and won them all you use around (5*12) 60 bonus. You have to keep ur bonus from rising over time. Without cruncing numbers (im on a phone on a bus) it os obvious that you will to play like at least ten winning games or more a week ( prolly more).
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On April 14 2011 02:16 Me1234 wrote:did artosis just give up? Region: #113 for sjArtosis nearly all GM spots are taken and he's 113 in Masters league.. not good
The sense of entitlement from Artosis was mind boggling last night on SoTG. I don't have anything against the guy but, him bitching that he was ranked 80th and should "clearly" be in Grandmaster's was hilarious. Loved the shit they gave him for it as well.
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On April 14 2011 02:28 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 02:16 Me1234 wrote:did artosis just give up? Region: #113 for sjArtosis nearly all GM spots are taken and he's 113 in Masters league.. not good The sense of entitlement from Artosis was mind boggling last night on SoTG. I don't have anything against the guy but, him bitching that he was ranked 80th and should "clearly" be in Grandmaster's was hilarious. Loved the shit they gave him for it as well.
i'd like mmr to be visible if they're going to have an entire league centered around a hidden stat. maybe they could at least make it visible for grandmaster entry and hide it again after the GMs are decided. i would be confused if i were him too as his high ranking implies high mmr, but we all know that's not necessarily the case when it comes to having the top 200 mmr.
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On April 14 2011 01:25 DiaBoLuS wrote:
all i hear is mimimi from ppl who wanna be in and didnt get into.
the only thing i dont get is darkforce, he was top 10 in europe for the last few weeks with 70%+ wins, has like 20 to 10 w/l since gml is up and simply does not get promoted, while others like me with much less points / ratio / MMR did.
yes we got it, you made it into GM, enjoy your 2 months because when your race is patched you will go back to your bronze league.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 14 2011 02:28 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 02:16 Me1234 wrote:did artosis just give up? Region: #113 for sjArtosis nearly all GM spots are taken and he's 113 in Masters league.. not good The sense of entitlement from Artosis was mind boggling last night on SoTG. I don't have anything against the guy but, him bitching that he was ranked 80th and should "clearly" be in Grandmaster's was hilarious. Loved the shit they gave him for it as well.
Huh, his reasons were quite clear. He is playing against guys in GM so surely he should be in GM. I don't see any "sense of entitlement" in that. It's logical. If you want to hate on a guy at least hate on him for some legit reasons.
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On April 14 2011 02:43 Toxi78 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:25 DiaBoLuS wrote:
all i hear is mimimi from ppl who wanna be in and didnt get into.
the only thing i dont get is darkforce, he was top 10 in europe for the last few weeks with 70%+ wins, has like 20 to 10 w/l since gml is up and simply does not get promoted, while others like me with much less points / ratio / MMR did. yes we got it, you made it into GM, enjoy your 2 months because when your race is patched you will go back to your bronze league.
Lol, less pms please... let me guess, you're one of the people that deserve to be in GM but didnt make it? It's not like he was bragging abot it, so I don't see a reason for you to be a dick about it.
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On April 14 2011 02:45 Numy wrote:
Huh, his reasons were quite clear. He is playing against guys in GM so surely he should be in GM. I don't see any "sense of entitlement" in that. It's logical. If you want to hate on a guy at least hate on him for some legit reasons.
From what I've seen looking at matches on people's streams, it appears that matchmaking is pretty loose in high Master league and above so that people don't have to wait forever to get a game. There are probably 1000+ people who regularly play GM players.
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On April 14 2011 01:34 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 01:28 Sfydjklm wrote:
because if you want to take it seriously you gotta measure time in man-hours. Pretty sure that the moving average is over "games," not "time," so I think that's what they're already doing. My comment should have read "lot of games" not "long time."
i meant your gsl comparasion.
entire season of GSl equates to like 2-3 days of laddering for a pro.
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The biggest problem with the ladder is there are 2 kinds of meaningless ranking going on, by points and by hidden mmr. Points does not indicate skill, hidden mmr is well, hidden.
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On April 14 2011 03:03 Like a Boss wrote:
The biggest problem with the ladder is there are 2 kinds of meaningless ranking going on, by points and by hidden mmr. Points does not indicate skill, hidden mmr is well, hidden.
apprently hidden MMR doesnt indicate skill either, judging by Darkforce's example.
Why do you think they hide this stuff in the first place.
Theyre afraid of criticism of the system that has been failing for over a year now.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 13 2011 22:15 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 21:20 T.O.P. wrote:On April 13 2011 19:33 ch33psh33p wrote:On April 13 2011 19:09 Beyonder wrote:On April 13 2011 19:08 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Daboo, dutch pro-gamer is in there with 2 accounts, LLLDaboo and PraeDaboo. Really weird to not be able to recognize 90% of those names. TLO still isn't in it, no naniwa as far as I can see, maybe they haven't laddered that much? They just have not played yet, but TLO is in the American one. People need to stop complaining really. If you are not in, you either have not played enough to reach the desired MMR level, or you are not good enough to reach it. Reality check! :D Each slot has an mmr value assigned to it. the lower values were snatched up quickly, so even players that may be better than the lower end of the GM league have higher MMR's now, they are still lower than the availiable remaning slots which are probably assigned to extremely high MMR values for pros that have yet to play their placement. Therefore, it isn't a question of if oyu're good enough for most people from 100-200, its just simply they were too late It's their fault for not having a top 200 mmr in the first place. If you have a top 200 mmr, you eun one game and you're in. If you play your first game late, then someone surpassed you and you're not top 200 in mmr anyways. I don't get why you guys are complaining. Mmr is the best way to measure pure skill. It doesn't reward players for mass gaming. The MMR from 100-400 is extremely packed, it was definetly more of a first come first serve basis, versus a, just having the high enouhg MMR. I even checked out your account, if you played today, you would not be getting in. Don't act all high and mighty when you simply played early and stole one of hte lowerrated MMR slots. Its a flawed system, but no need to pretend its all perfect just becaus you landed a spot.
It's only got harder today because there were alot of people who massed gamed yesterday. Those people thought they were GM material already, once they found out they weren't, they tried really hard to raise their MMR. My friend went 11-1 after the release of GM to get in.
Those who waited until today to play and didn't get in didn't get in for a reason. Their MMR wasn't top 200 anymore. They got surpassed by hundreds of players who worked hard to raise their MMR yesterday.
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On April 14 2011 03:04 Sfydjklm wrote:
Why do you think they hide this stuff in the first place.
Theyre afraid of criticism of the system that has been failing for over a year now.
They hide MMR for multiple reasons, most of which were stated in their SC2 Multiplayer forums at Blizzcon 2009 and 2010:
* Because most players' MMR doesn't change that much on average, over the long run, and they don't want that to be demoralizing to people.
* Because MMR swings around as you win and lose games and isn't great feedback about how you're doing for the short term.
* Because displaying MMR would allow people to reverse-engineer the system, which both helps their competitors trying to build a similar system and would probably result in a huge increase in effectiveness of win-trading strategies.
* Because they want rewards for activity factored into their ladder ranking system, which is what bonus points provide.
The idea that they hide the MMR to dodge criticism makes no sense, because only a tiny handful of people would understand what the number meant and the remainder will complain whether they can see the number or not.
The sole purpose of MMR is to give people relatively even matches, and for that it's excellent. Players who are not deliberately throwing games get matched with people who aren't that far off in terms of play quality, most of the time.
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"Mmr is the best way to measure pure skill. It doesn't reward players for mass gaming."
Explain guys like Yaa getting in then. Go ahead ill wait.
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On April 14 2011 03:14 SpiDaH wrote:
"Mmr is the best way to measure pure skill. It doesn't reward players for mass gaming."
Explain guys like Yaa getting in then. Go ahead ill wait.
Yaa was the guy who stopped playing middle of last season (before Master league was implemented) and played a modest number of games this season, then got promoted to grandmaster league?
One weakness of the MMR system, as implemented, appears to be that it measures where you fall in the population, not some absolute level of skill, while at the same time remaining unchanged if you do not play.
This means that people who take a very long break can fall behind the rest of the community both from being out of practice and from the general skill level rising, yet have an MMR that reflects where they were several months before.
If a player had had a very high MMR last fall, and quit the game until this season, then played a small number of games that were mostly losses but didn't tank their MMR completely, it's possible they might make it into the GM league due to a stale, inflated MMR.
Players in this position will probably very quickly fall out for inactivity, but if they keep playing they will still have trouble spending their bonus points because they'll start out with an extended losing streak.
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On April 14 2011 03:12 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 03:04 Sfydjklm wrote:
Why do you think they hide this stuff in the first place.
Theyre afraid of criticism of the system that has been failing for over a year now. They hide MMR for multiple reasons, most of which were stated in their SC2 Multiplayer forums at Blizzcon 2009 and 2010: * Because most players' MMR doesn't change that much on average, over the long run, and they don't want that to be demoralizing to people. * Because MMR swings around as you win and lose games and isn't great feedback about how you're doing for the short term. * Because displaying MMR would allow people to reverse-engineer the system, which both helps their competitors trying to build a similar system and would probably result in a huge increase in effectiveness of win-trading strategies. * Because they want rewards for activity factored into their ladder ranking system, which is what bonus points provide. The idea that they hide the MMR to dodge criticism makes no sense, because only a tiny handful of people would understand what the number meant and the remainder will complain whether they can see the number or not. The sole purpose of MMR is to give people relatively even matches, and for that it's excellent. Players who are not deliberately throwing games get matched with people who aren't that far off in terms of play quality, most of the time.
cause that handful of people with Excal at teh lead did not go out of their way to do their best and explain it to us even knowing how it actually works? And i doubt reverse engineering as you say it would be of any hustle to any company that possesses adequate man power to analyze the data that is already displayed. And a company that doesnt have that manpower has access to free and superior ELO. Obviously all your other reasons are valid but i dont doubt that avoiding criticism is one of the contributing reasons as well.
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if someone is playing like mad, hoping to get in: dont give up. delphi and i just managed to get in with around 900 points. delphi should be like top50 EU MMR-wise so no idea why he wasnt in from the start.
anyway. it appears to me, that around 900 points might still be enough to get in "no" matter the the MMR.
gl
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I'm guessing artosis didn't get in because of his standing BEFORE the new ladder season (since he played on korea and not NA)
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The system should have no hidden skill rating system, it should be based only on ladder points and the only games you should get are of those in a set range of your ladder points.
Basically a system like PGT / ICC. It's stupid to have hidden rankings, it just leads to the idiocy that we have now. If the system were one based solely on points, then not only would the system be incredibly easy to understand but it would be an accurate measure of skill. The higher your points, the higher your skill. You wouldn't need all the idiotic divisions, you would simply have a ladder rating such as the ABCD system of PGT and ICC. Being #1 in Bronze isn't going to give someone encouragement, they're still in bronze. But if you're D and you know what it takes to get to D+ it makes you work harder. There's no "I wonder if I'll get promoted soon", it's just "I need to get to X amount of points to be promoted" and that's how it should be.
If it were like that, points and ladder score would mean something, just as in PGT. If you were a high rank there everyone knew you were good, that's because you only played people who are also that high in points. But with the hidden MMR you have people with high points / low MMR which makes the system a joke. Not to mention that there's no set points to strive for, it's always going. If you were pro, you could play 200 games and get A and then you're set - you accomplished something and it was rewarding. "I got to X rank in X amount of time", that's something to be proud of, but here it's like you can play 200 games and get to 1000 points as one of the first in the world, if you don't play for a week theres 500 people who are already at 1500 making your 1000 points look stupid and pointless
/end rant
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On April 14 2011 02:28 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 02:16 Me1234 wrote:did artosis just give up? Region: #113 for sjArtosis nearly all GM spots are taken and he's 113 in Masters league.. not good The sense of entitlement from Artosis was mind boggling last night on SoTG. I don't have anything against the guy but, him bitching that he was ranked 80th and should "clearly" be in Grandmaster's was hilarious. Loved the shit they gave him for it as well.
Had nothing to do with a sense of entitlement.. It was his logical understanding that if he was in top 200 on the server (he was 80) and won a game, he'd be placed in GML...
You can stuff your comments in a sack mister
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On April 14 2011 03:24 Sfydjklm wrote:
cause that handful of people with Excal at teh lead did not go out of their way to do their best and explain it to us even knowing how it actually works?
He's worked extremely hard to explain how it works, but as much as he does so, the majority of people don't seem to understand (or perhaps read) his explanations.
And i doubt reverse engineering as you say it would be of any hustle to any company that possesses adequate man power to analyze the data that is already displayed.
Reverse engineering how a scoring system works becomes a lot more difficult when you can't see the numerical score. All you can see right now on the profiles are a history of wins and losses -- and you would probably have to have all that data, for all players, to be able to extract what the matchmaking system is doing.
And a company that doesnt have that manpower has access to free and superior ELO.
Blizzard's system is a lot more similar to Microsoft's TrueSkill system than to ELO, for a number of specific reasons. While Blizzard's system is held secret, Microsoft's conveniently published a paper on TrueSkill that, among other things, explains why it's designed differently than ELO, and many of those same design choices probably apply to Blizzard's system (particularly because the architects of Blizzard's matchmaking came from Microsoft.)
Here's a link to Microsoft's paper on the TrueSkill matching system:
TrueSkill: A Bayesian Skill Rating System
Obviously all your other reasons are valid but i dont doubt that avoiding criticism is one of the contributing reasons as well.
I think if six years of WoW have had one impact on Blizzard, it's that it's helped them realize that people will complain no matter what choices they make.
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On April 14 2011 03:37 shinyA wrote:
But with the hidden MMR you have people with high points / low MMR which makes the system a joke.
You really don't ever have people with "high points / low MMR" for very long. Points (not counting bonus points, and adjusted differently per division) converge on MMR.
If the total number of bonus points awarded so far in a given season is 3000 (for example), then for a point value to be "high" it needs to be well above 3000.
Division rankings are a pretty good proxy for rankings by MMR within that division, other than that inactive players drop to the bottom of the list over time. And, in Master league, you can compare point values across division, because all the division modifiers are the same.
Edit: Incidentally, division rankings may be better than MMR for ranking players, because a player who takes an extended break will have a stale MMR that overstates their skill, but they'll fall to the bottom of the division ranking because they aren't spending bonus points.
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Is the top200 on US filled yet?
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Its really fucking retarded that blizzard have made a game centered around a ladder noone can see.
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On April 14 2011 03:49 Armsved wrote:
Its really fucking retarded that blizzard have made a game centered around a ladder noone can see.
WTH are you talking about. Everyone can see GM league rankings ><
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On April 14 2011 03:50 Darkhallow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 03:49 Armsved wrote:
Its really fucking retarded that blizzard have made a game centered around a ladder noone can see. WTH are you talking about. Everyone can see GM league rankings ><
im talking about MMR
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What the fuck is going on with ladder placement in GM... there are so many bads that have like 12 games this season (one guy is 6-6..) who are around 2k in masters last season. Tell me they are going to be removed, please.
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On April 14 2011 04:10 khOOM wrote:
What the fuck is going on with ladder placement in GM... there are so many bads that have like 12 games this season (one guy is 6-6..) who are around 2k in masters last season. Tell me they are going to be removed, please.
i'll tell you to look up how mmr works first
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On April 14 2011 04:11 Let it Raine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 04:10 khOOM wrote:
What the fuck is going on with ladder placement in GM... there are so many bads that have like 12 games this season (one guy is 6-6..) who are around 2k in masters last season. Tell me they are going to be removed, please. i'll tell you to look up how mmr works first
its all fun and games but it also equals claiming that Fruitdealer is the best player in the world right now.
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On April 14 2011 03:37 shinyA wrote:
The system should have no hidden skill rating system, it should be based only on ladder points and the only games you should get are of those in a set range of your ladder points.
Basically a system like PGT / ICC. It's stupid to have hidden rankings, it just leads to the idiocy that we have now. If the system were one based solely on points, then not only would the system be incredibly easy to understand but it would be an accurate measure of skill. The higher your points, the higher your skill. You wouldn't need all the idiotic divisions, you would simply have a ladder rating such as the ABCD system of PGT and ICC. Being #1 in Bronze isn't going to give someone encouragement, they're still in bronze. But if you're D and you know what it takes to get to D+ it makes you work harder. There's no "I wonder if I'll get promoted soon", it's just "I need to get to X amount of points to be promoted" and that's how it should be.
If it were like that, points and ladder score would mean something, just as in PGT. If you were a high rank there everyone knew you were good, that's because you only played people who are also that high in points. But with the hidden MMR you have people with high points / low MMR which makes the system a joke. Not to mention that there's no set points to strive for, it's always going. If you were pro, you could play 200 games and get A and then you're set - you accomplished something and it was rewarding. "I got to X rank in X amount of time", that's something to be proud of, but here it's like you can play 200 games and get to 1000 points as one of the first in the world, if you don't play for a week theres 500 people who are already at 1500 making your 1000 points look stupid and pointless
/end rant
agree 100%
exactly my thoughts.
but guess it would be to intimidating for blizzard... cause people could actually see that they are rank 373455... so sad :/
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Here's an interesting point: ROOTKitty, which hasn't been played since the 9th and probably won't be, most likely has a spot reserved in the GM league. Until another player in Master league surpasses his MMR, or until his bonus pool hits 180 (it's currently 59), that spot won't be taken by another player.
Because of cases like this, it's likely that the NA GM league won't fill up for a while yet, if I correctly understand how this system works.
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On April 14 2011 04:11 Let it Raine wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2011 04:10 khOOM wrote:
What the fuck is going on with ladder placement in GM... there are so many bads that have like 12 games this season (one guy is 6-6..) who are around 2k in masters last season. Tell me they are going to be removed, please. i'll tell you to look up how mmr works first
I have, and I must reiterate: What the fuck?
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On April 14 2011 04:26 Lysenko wrote:
Here's an interesting point: ROOTKitty, which hasn't been played since the 9th and probably won't be, most likely has a spot reserved in the GM league. Until another player in Master league surpasses his MMR, or until his bonus pool hits 180 (it's currently 59), that spot won't be taken by another player.
Because of cases like this, it's likely that the NA GM league won't fill up for a while yet, if I correctly understand how this system works.
That is EXACTLY correct.
The high mmr reserve slots haven't been taken yet, but the lower ones have.
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On April 14 2011 04:21 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 03:37 shinyA wrote:
The system should have no hidden skill rating system, it should be based only on ladder points and the only games you should get are of those in a set range of your ladder points.
Basically a system like PGT / ICC. It's stupid to have hidden rankings, it just leads to the idiocy that we have now. If the system were one based solely on points, then not only would the system be incredibly easy to understand but it would be an accurate measure of skill. The higher your points, the higher your skill. You wouldn't need all the idiotic divisions, you would simply have a ladder rating such as the ABCD system of PGT and ICC. Being #1 in Bronze isn't going to give someone encouragement, they're still in bronze. But if you're D and you know what it takes to get to D+ it makes you work harder. There's no "I wonder if I'll get promoted soon", it's just "I need to get to X amount of points to be promoted" and that's how it should be.
If it were like that, points and ladder score would mean something, just as in PGT. If you were a high rank there everyone knew you were good, that's because you only played people who are also that high in points. But with the hidden MMR you have people with high points / low MMR which makes the system a joke. Not to mention that there's no set points to strive for, it's always going. If you were pro, you could play 200 games and get A and then you're set - you accomplished something and it was rewarding. "I got to X rank in X amount of time", that's something to be proud of, but here it's like you can play 200 games and get to 1000 points as one of the first in the world, if you don't play for a week theres 500 people who are already at 1500 making your 1000 points look stupid and pointless
/end rant agree 100% exactly my thoughts. but guess it would be to intimidating for blizzard... cause people could actually see that they are rank 373455... so sad :/
Problem is, if blizzard used a point system which actually correlated well with skill (e.g., ELO), they would lose a ton of their player base. Most casual players don't like ELO systems, because it doesn't reward playing lots of games, and it's very difficult to improve your rating, unlike the system that ICCUP/PGT used, and unlike the system blizzard uses now. In fact, PGT didn't use an ELO system for that reason. There was much debate between the people who ran PGT about what point system they would use, and they decided to use the one they did rather than some modified ELO because they thought it would increase activity.
Don't even try to argue that the system ICCUP and PGT used was any better than blizzard's system, because mass gaming could still get you pretty high. There was a massive difference between someone who was C+ and was 50-12, and someone who was C+ and 120-100.
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On April 14 2011 04:33 ch33psh33p wrote:
The high mmr reserve slots haven't been taken yet, but the lower ones have.
I'd guess that at least a couple of those slots are high-level players who are in Sweden for Dreamhack. I'll be interested to see if any recognizable names make it in once that's over.
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On April 14 2011 03:23 Lysenko wrote:
One weakness of the MMR system, as implemented, appears to be that it measures where you fall in the population, not some absolute level of skill, while at the same time remaining unchanged if you do not play.
There's no such thing as absolute skill - everything is relative. In a world of retarded kids with parkinson's, someone with 100 APM would be the holy emperor of Starcraft. We judge one person's skill based on our perception of the norm. The only thing you CAN measure is where you fall relative to others.
On April 14 2011 03:23 Lysenko wrote:
If a player had had a very high MMR last fall, and quit the game until this season, then played a small number of games that were mostly losses but didn't tank their MMR completely, it's possible they might make it into the GM league due to a stale, inflated MMR.
they might make it due to a high MMR, not an inflated one. throughout the course of a game's season, global MMR will inflate due to 2 things - more games played, and more people playing. I'm basing this on my experience with the WOW ladder which employs (I assume) the same system. At the start of the MMR wipe in a new season, 2200 was fairly difficult to achieve, and the top teams were only around 2700. Around now, 2500 is fairly easy to achieve, and the highest teams are 3000. Imagine if a top team sitting at 2700 MMR quit early in the season - it wouldn't mean anything in the later stages.
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On April 14 2011 04:38 PJA wrote:
Problem is, if blizzard used a point system which actually correlated well with skill (e.g., ELO), they would lose a ton of their player base.
It does correlate well with skill within a division, among players who are spending all their bonus points as they earn them. Admittedly, those are pretty big caveats, particularly in lower leagues where many players don't play that much.
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On April 14 2011 04:40 displaced wrote:
There's no such thing as absolute skill - everything is relative.
I understand that. My point was that the system's weakness is that a player who takes a long break has an MMR that doesn't reflect their skill correctly vs. players who play actively, and it won't correct until they play a bunch of games and lose.
On April 14 2011 04:40 displaced wrote:
they might make it due to a high MMR, not an inflated one.
"Inflated" meaning that their MMR, while correct when they started their break, has become an overestimate of their skill over time as players who have stayed active have improved (or simply changed how they're playing.)
If you were the top player on the ladder in August and stopped playing until today, your MMR would wrongly estimate that you would go 50/50 with players who would simply destroy you over and over again. That's what I mean by an inflated, or stale, MMR.
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On April 14 2011 04:31 khOOM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 04:11 Let it Raine wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2011 04:10 khOOM wrote:
What the fuck is going on with ladder placement in GM... there are so many bads that have like 12 games this season (one guy is 6-6..) who are around 2k in masters last season. Tell me they are going to be removed, please. i'll tell you to look up how mmr works first I have, and I must reiterate: What the fuck?
don't know what player you're talking about, but this is the most plausible explanation:
he beat players of high MMR, and only lost to players of high MMR.
for the sake of simplicity, assume he won 6 times against 3000 rated players. then he lost 6 times against 3100 rated players. he would have a high MMR, shit ratio, and not a lot of actual points.
here's the alternative to paint a contrasting picture:
someone wins 30 games against 2000 rated players. then he loses 1 against a 2800. his MMR would effectively be lower than the first guy's.
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made top 200 with like a 7 months break vgood with just playing some game 2 days ago!
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On April 14 2011 04:45 Lysenko wrote:
"Inflated" meaning that their MMR, while correct when they started their break, has become an overestimate of their skill over time as players who have stayed active have improved (or simply changed how they're playing.)
If you were the top player on the ladder in August and stopped playing until today, your MMR would wrongly estimate that you would go 50/50 with players who would simply destroy you over and over again. That's what I mean by an inflated, or stale, MMR.
I'm not going to look up the definition of inflation because I have class soon, but it should be pretty clear what I mean. Your implications were wrong - someone who quit last fall won't have a high MMR just by sitting on it for a year, due to everyone else's MMR rising due to a "MMR inflation" as I described. Unless everyone quits starcraft, MMR will constantly rise over time. if 2k MMR is top 200 today, in a year 3k mmr will probably be top 200.
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On April 14 2011 04:49 Jaden- wrote:
made top 200 with like a 7 months break vgood with just playing some game 2 days ago!
info thread, not brag thread.
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this has probably been said already, but I think that the fixed grandmaster is a good idea, it gives a sense of constancy to the league unlike other leagues.
Treat it like its a GSL Code S denomination. Players that are Code S are enshrined for their previous performance, and retain Code S indisputably for the length of a season. Then a new GSL season starts a month later and we have a new Code S players.
Grandmaster gives us some names that we can hold on too for awhile. But yeah if the seasons last more than 3 months then that sucks.
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its info!, it mean that my MMR was still pretty high and it carry over
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On April 14 2011 04:50 displaced wrote:
I'm not going to look up the definition of inflation because I have class soon, but it should be pretty clear what I mean. Your implications were wrong - someone who quit last fall won't have a high MMR just by sitting on it for a year, due to everyone else's MMR rising due to a "MMR inflation" as I described. Unless everyone quits starcraft, MMR will constantly rise over time. if 2k MMR is top 200 today, in a year 3k mmr will probably be top 200.
You're simply not correct about this. There is no MMR inflation for the active population. Here's Excalibur_Z's explanation from another thread (and I believe that his understanding of this comes from his conversations with developers at Blizzcon and through his connections from the Blizzard forum MVP program.)
On March 06 2011 11:20 Excalibur_Z wrote:
What we can take this to mean is that the top of the ladder gets more and more exclusive. Let's use a chess example. Let's say that I started a new league that used the existing Elo ranking system, but it was invite-only, and I decided to only invite 3 players: a 2800 grandmaster, a 2400 master, and a 1500 average player. Because they're only allowed to play each other, their former ratings will no longer be accurate. What would happen over time is that the average player's rating would plummet because he can no longer win any games since there are no ladder participants weaker than him to prop him up to 1500. The master player would become the new average because while he can't beat the grandmaster, those losses are offset by beating the average player. It may take some time before each player settles on their new rating in my ladder, but their ratings would be very different from what they were previously.
The same is true in SC2 as time passes. Bronze players quit, Silver players no longer have as many Bronze players to beat, so they become the new Bronze players over time. We know this is the case because SC2Ranks, which shows league stats of all accounts, has around 44% of players in Bronze. That means a majority of those Bronze players have simply quit playing, and over time more people get dropped into Bronze because their MMRs are no longer propped up by those bad players, effectively making them the bad players relatively speaking.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 14 2011 04:50 displaced wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 04:45 Lysenko wrote:
"Inflated" meaning that their MMR, while correct when they started their break, has become an overestimate of their skill over time as players who have stayed active have improved (or simply changed how they're playing.)
If you were the top player on the ladder in August and stopped playing until today, your MMR would wrongly estimate that you would go 50/50 with players who would simply destroy you over and over again. That's what I mean by an inflated, or stale, MMR. I'm not going to look up the definition of inflation because I have class soon, but it should be pretty clear what I mean. Your implications were wrong - someone who quit last fall won't have a high MMR just by sitting on it for a year, due to everyone else's MMR rising due to a "MMR inflation" as I described. Unless everyone quits starcraft, MMR will constantly rise over time. if 2k MMR is top 200 today, in a year 3k mmr will probably be top 200.
Calling it "MMR inflation" isn't technically accurate, it's more like "MMR recalibration" or "MMR correction" or something like that. Inflation means that the average rating increases over time as a result of new players feeding the average players who feed the good players who feed the very good players, but because Blizzard's system emphasizes activity and targets rating accuracy based upon activity, it cuts both ways.
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im looking forward to blizzard changing gm league with dynamic promoting/demoting to prevent the abuse of a new account's mmr
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Darkforce just entered GM
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On April 14 2011 04:50 displaced wrote:
I'm not going to look up the definition of inflation because I have class soon, but it should be pretty clear what I mean. Your implications were wrong - someone who quit last fall won't have a high MMR just by sitting on it for a year, due to everyone else's MMR rising due to a "MMR inflation" as I described. Unless everyone quits starcraft, MMR will constantly rise over time. if 2k MMR is top 200 today, in a year 3k mmr will probably be top 200.
This isn't entirely true. The league average MMR will stay about the same over time. The very elite and the worst of the worst will see their rankings get further and further from the mean but I don't think the 'inflation' is that large. Blizzard uses static goal posts for the leagues which implies that the system is designed to prevent changes to player MMR's over time. Also we have already seen many many players from diamond all the way up to grand masters who have squated on their MMR rating and it has held up over time despite them earning it months ago.
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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but you are unable to add any of the grandmaster league as friends, probably to make sure they dont get constantly spammed by everyone. Not sure if this has been mentioned so sorry if it has.
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If someone managed to miss it, you can see the Grandmaster's Division by clicking on "Leagues and Ladders" and then clicking on the Grandmasters tab.
Edit: I misunderstood a post, and since I can't delete this message as far as I could tell, I tried to make it not totally useless. Sorry about that.
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guys who cares if those who dont deserve to be in GM are in. if they dont deserve it, they will be kicked out.
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So after checking SC2ranks, I'm guessing all the servers now have Grandmasters implemented
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Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but you can't chat Grand Masters. Period.
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On April 14 2011 15:11 Wolf wrote:
Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but you can't chat Grand Masters. Period.
???
This is not true at all. Maybe if they are RealID friends you are able to because I have a friend in grandmasters and I was giving him props after his promotion. I initiated the contact as well... I'll have to randomly whisper pros to see if they respond
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On April 14 2011 15:14 Zerglinguist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 15:11 Wolf wrote:
Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but you can't chat Grand Masters. Period. ??? This is not true at all. Maybe if they are RealID friends you are able to because I have a friend in grandmasters and I was giving him props after his promotion. I initiated the contact as well... I'll have to randomly whisper pros to see if they respond
I think you have to be mutual friends with them. I couldn't add/chat any of my friends from one of my accouts they didn't know.
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How does Dayvie with 27-17 something rec got into GM but idra didn't. I don't get it.
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I'm 40-25 and I didn't get it. It's more complex than you think. I've been told there are MMR zones, so if all the spots near your MMR are taken, you can't get in unless you drop/go up
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On April 14 2011 15:11 Wolf wrote:
Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but you can't chat Grand Masters. Period.
huh? I got msg'd by people I don't have my friends list with a congratulations for getting grandmasters. :o.
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On April 14 2011 16:47 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 15:11 Wolf wrote:
Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but you can't chat Grand Masters. Period. huh? I got msg'd by people I don't have my friends list with a congratulations for getting grandmasters. :o.
Really? Maybe I'm flagged for being super chatty or something. Haha. It was like that for me on PTR as well though.
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GM is based off last seasons MMR, or if you managed to pound out like 200-300 games this season so far, then you should have made it as well.
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On April 14 2011 15:30 Wolf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 15:14 Zerglinguist wrote:On April 14 2011 15:11 Wolf wrote:
Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but you can't chat Grand Masters. Period. ??? This is not true at all. Maybe if they are RealID friends you are able to because I have a friend in grandmasters and I was giving him props after his promotion. I initiated the contact as well... I'll have to randomly whisper pros to see if they respond I think you have to be mutual friends with them. I couldn't add/chat any of my friends from one of my accouts they didn't know.
Probably to protect these players from being messaged to death by stalkers.
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U guys are so butt hurt that your fav player didn't get in because they weren't as good as you may of thought they were. Honestly if someone is 10-10 but his MMR from the previous season was so high that he got in so be it.
If you Fav player / Yourself was good enough i'm sure you would of gotten in. Idra didn't even play his GM match for 2days, played one game and instantly got in, That says a lot about how the GM spots were based off MMR.
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I played like 10 games last night. In 3 of those games I got matched up with grandmasters, 2 of them were slightly favored, one said teams even. Won 2 lost 1. No promotion.
Weird thing: I also encountered some master players who were slightly favored over me. So what is with the MMR of that grandmaster guy who were evenly matched against me?
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OMG, white ra isn't gm on eu -.-'
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On April 14 2011 18:43 Terranium wrote:
I played like 10 games last night. In 3 of those games I got matched up with grandmasters, 2 of them were slightly favored, one said teams even. Won 2 lost 1. No promotion.
Weird thing: I also encountered some master players who were slightly favored over me. So what is with the MMR of that grandmaster guy who were evenly matched against me?
Being favoured has nothing to do with the opponent you are facing in fact. It's kinda ridiculous but true. It's determined by your current rating to your expected rating (MMR), so say if your MMR is much higher than your actual rating you will be favoured etc. This leads to situation where both players that are playing against each other see themselves as favoured on the loading screen, which is even more ridiculous :D One more point for false and misleading systems!
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On April 14 2011 19:04 bistri wrote:
OMG, white ra isn't gm on eu -.-'
There are still spots open men, don't worry...
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I only wanted to get into diamond :C and then master league came :D and then even grandmaster leage came D:
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On April 14 2011 19:36 Kaleb aka. Mngzkhuel wrote:
I only wanted to get into diamond :C and then master league came :D and then even grandmaster leage came D:
I know! I still am aiming for diamond! Now I have to aim even higher! I find this grandmaster league awesomely interesting, checking it every day :D
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seems to me gm league is not worth checking a lot.
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On April 14 2011 19:04 bistri wrote:
OMG, white ra isn't gm on eu -.-'
im guessing since this patch came out he has been busy abroad and hasnt played much at all on actual ladder, Wont be long!!!
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On April 14 2011 20:24 Tommylew wrote:im guessing since this patch came out he has been busy abroad and hasnt played much at all on actual ladder, Wont be long!!!
there is just 7 spots left though. Both White-Ra and Naniwa still missing (unless they are in with a smurf), hopefully their spots are reserved in some way. Anyone noticed any other players who should be in there but aren't yet?
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On April 14 2011 21:00 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 20:24 Tommylew wrote:On April 14 2011 19:04 bistri wrote:
OMG, white ra isn't gm on eu -.-' im guessing since this patch came out he has been busy abroad and hasnt played much at all on actual ladder, Wont be long!!! there is just 7 spots left though. Both White-Ra and Naniwa still missing (unless they are in with a smurf), hopefully their spots are reserved in some way. Anyone noticed any other players who should be in there but aren't yet?
Yeah that's really weird. Do we have any information about whether or not spots are in fact reserved for well-known players? Because once the GM league is complete, it will be locked for like several months or something, right?
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3.7k last season
started with 730ish pts. got to 920ish by constant laddering for 2 days.
Finally took a GM spot
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On April 14 2011 21:04 PraetorianX wrote:
Yeah that's really weird. Do we have any information about whether or not spots are in fact reserved for well-known players? Because once the GM league is complete, it will be locked for like several months or something, right?
They are reserved in a sense. The spots go to the 200 players with the highest MMR and a bonus pool of less than 180. As long as these players aren't overtaken in MMR, the spot will remain for them. However, eventually they'll either have to play a game and qualify for the league officially, or their bonus pool will get too large and they'll be disqualified.
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On April 14 2011 21:42 Jumbled wrote:
They are reserved in a sense. The spots go to the 200 players with the highest MMR and a bonus pool of less than 180. As long as these players aren't overtaken in MMR, the spot will remain for them. However, eventually they'll either have to play a game and qualify for the league officially, or their bonus pool will get too large and they'll be disqualified.
This is correct -- I posted a few pages back speculating that some of the empty spots in NA were allocated to recognizable names who had traveled to Dreamhack. EGIdrA making it in on his return is a pretty good indication that that's why the league has not filled up.
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There is no way darkforce didn't have a high enough MMR to get into GM.
If that's really the case, then he must have royally screwed up his MMR last season before reset. And then Blizzard's hidden MMR must be really inflexible, since he went like 180-40 in the 2 weeks prior to GM league.
I just don't see a universe where darkforce's MMR is below top200 (unless he offraced for 1-2 months straight).
Same thing with ESC.delphi. He didn't get in either and he finished last season ahead of me in masters (not that it means the world because of how screwed up the ladder was towards the end, but he's another player who is very unlikely to be outside of top200 MMR.).
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On April 15 2011 00:03 LaLuSh wrote:
There is no way darkforce didn't have a high enough MMR to get into GM.
He's in the European GM league at the moment.
Edit: So is ESCDelphi.
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Nice to see two 17 year olds from Mexico at rank 1 and 2 of the ladder (Maker and sixjaxTerran).
Also congrats to the 17 year old xsixMkengyn who was top 5 yesterday. Lots of young players stepping it up on the ladder.
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Germany442 Posts
On April 15 2011 00:08 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:03 LaLuSh wrote:
There is no way darkforce didn't have a high enough MMR to get into GM. He's in the European GM league at the moment. Edit: So is ESCDelphi.
Yes, they are both in now, but weren't directly promoted after 1 win (afaik), so their MMR appparently wasn't high enough when the top 200 places were determined, they had to increase it to get into top200.
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On April 15 2011 00:47 uberism wrote:
Nice to see two 17 year olds from Mexico at rank 1 and 2 of the ladder (Maker and sixjaxTerran).
Also congrats to the 17 year old xsixMkengyn who was top 5 yesterday. Lots of young players stepping it up on the ladder.
Spanishiwa as well ^^
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On April 15 2011 00:47 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
Yes, they are both in now, but weren't directly promoted after 1 win (afaik), so their MMR appparently wasn't high enough when the top 200 places were determined, they had to increase it to get into top200.
I don't know that we can say for absolutely certain that that's the case. It may be that not every grandmaster-qualified player was evaluated for promotion after each and every game, in which case their MMR may have been high enough but it may simply have required more than one game to get promoted.
This could be that the implementation of the league is a bit more complex than the general rules Excalibur_Z posted at the start of the thread, or there could be operational issues like applying server-side hotfixes that might delay a promotion. I don't know that we can entirely rule possibilities like that out, though I have no particular reason to believe any one of these is the case.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 15 2011 02:00 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:47 PhiLtheFisH wrote:
Yes, they are both in now, but weren't directly promoted after 1 win (afaik), so their MMR appparently wasn't high enough when the top 200 places were determined, they had to increase it to get into top200. I don't know that we can say for absolutely certain that that's the case. It may be that not every grandmaster-qualified player was evaluated for promotion after each and every game, in which case their MMR may have been high enough but it may simply have required more than one game to get promoted. This could be that the implementation of the league is a bit more complex than the general rules Excalibur_Z posted at the start of the thread, or there could be operational issues like applying server-side hotfixes that might delay a promotion. I don't know that we can entirely rule possibilities like that out, though I have no particular reason to believe any one of these is the case.
Yeah it doesn't sound like it should be that complicated. The way I understand it, it's like "current min moving average requirement: 2500" (whatever the #200's reserved value is) then somebody gets above that and gets in, then the new minimum requirement becomes 2550 (#199's reserved value) or something like that. The players who are way above the minimum should theoretically be getting in after their very first win, because even if they were to lose a game or two beforehand their moving average wouldn't fall far enough to drop below the minimum requirement.
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I hope somebody makes a decent thread about the GM league when it is completely full. Then we can use those threads to discuss the players in it and the matches they played.
I also hope that Blizzard awards the nr1 spot in the GM league with a cash prize. Something around 3K$, 2nd 1.5K$ and 3th 500$. Which is not bad for a 3 month salary, if you are also competing in other tournaments. It gives some extra prestige to the ladder and the league.
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Rank 100, HairyZenith made me lol .
Would be nice for someone to compile a full list of the people in GM once its full.
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I don't know if that has been answered, but it's not in the op. Will there still be a weekly Top 200 released by Blizzard, since you will only drop out of GM if your bonus pool accumulates too much points and the actual top 200 MMR wise could be different afaik?
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So, HuK streaming right now, trying to get into GM in KR but he hasn't made it. He is 80-57 with 857 points in Master. IMLosira is in his division, doesn't look like he's made GM yet either. I know yesterday people were shocked that Naniwa wasn't GM, but as soon a he started laddering today he made GM in EU.
Can someone make a list of all famous players that haven't made GM?
I know drewbie is still Master too.
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On April 15 2011 22:22 PraetorianX wrote:
So, HuK streaming right now, trying to get into GM in KR but he hasn't made it. He is 80-57 with 857 points in Master. IMLosira is in his division, doesn't look like he's made GM yet either. I know yesterday people were shocked that Naniwa wasn't GM, but as soon a he started laddering today he made GM in EU.
Can someone make a list of all famous players that haven't made GM?
I know drewbie is still Master too.
HuK just won 3 straight games too, one vs Jinro and hes still not in...
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On April 15 2011 22:22 PraetorianX wrote:
So, HuK streaming right now, trying to get into GM in KR but he hasn't made it. He is 80-57 with 857 points in Master. IMLosira is in his division, doesn't look like he's made GM yet either. I know yesterday people were shocked that Naniwa wasn't GM, but as soon a he started laddering today he made GM in EU.
Can someone make a list of all famous players that haven't made GM?
I know drewbie is still Master too.
why dont....you do it? its not like its hard.
grandmaster in KR will prob miss out alot of big names because alot of ladder heroes are actually really good out there
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HuK should just register an account on TW or LA or RU. So few people on those servers, he would make GM directly after placements or something.
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On April 15 2011 22:22 PraetorianX wrote:
So, HuK streaming right now, trying to get into GM in KR but he hasn't made it. He is 80-57 with 857 points in Master. IMLosira is in his division, doesn't look like he's made GM yet either. I know yesterday people were shocked that Naniwa wasn't GM, but as soon a he started laddering today he made GM in EU.
Can someone make a list of all famous players that haven't made GM?
I know drewbie is still Master too.
main reason why i hate this ladder system, wish there was a way to check everyones MMR as personally i would love to know how close i am(or was), and how others are doing like huk.
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Considering MMR has absolutely no relation to visible points (especially since MMR was kept from last season) I don't see why people are so surprised. Blizzard should really release top 200 MMR list more often since it's become pretty apparent that rankings based on points are not close to MMR rankings.
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Ya must be hard to find time to ladder/practice when you are 17 and have no responsibilies outside of homework and spanish club :D
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
I want to see some replays from Happy (Russian player), his 126 wins and 15 losses is INSANE
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United States12235 Posts
On April 15 2011 21:54 Copenap wrote:
I don't know if that has been answered, but it's not in the op. Will there still be a weekly Top 200 released by Blizzard, since you will only drop out of GM if your bonus pool accumulates too much points and the actual top 200 MMR wise could be different afaik?
I wouldn't expect to see anymore Top 200 lists. The whole point of the weekly Top 200 blog posts was they were a stand-in because people couldn't see at a glance who the 200 best players were within the game. Now with Grandmaster you can do that.
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On April 15 2011 22:22 PraetorianX wrote:
So, HuK streaming right now, trying to get into GM in KR but he hasn't made it. He is 80-57 with 857 points in Master. IMLosira is in his division, doesn't look like he's made GM yet either. I know yesterday people were shocked that Naniwa wasn't GM, but as soon a he started laddering today he made GM in EU.
Can someone make a list of all famous players that haven't made GM?
I know drewbie is still Master too.
Haypro still in Masters ranked1. He's currently laddering on his stream trying to get into GM (and winning alot).
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On April 16 2011 02:56 Beyonder wrote:
I want to see some replays from Happy (Russian player), his 126 wins and 15 losses is INSANE
yeh same. he was 111-11 when i checked. sick winratio esp for sc2
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On April 15 2011 00:48 meep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:47 uberism wrote:
Nice to see two 17 year olds from Mexico at rank 1 and 2 of the ladder (Maker and sixjaxTerran).
Also congrats to the 17 year old xsixMkengyn who was top 5 yesterday. Lots of young players stepping it up on the ladder. Spanishiwa as well ^^
Also WZP is from mexico, very young and in GM
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On April 16 2011 03:12 archflames wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:48 meep wrote:On April 15 2011 00:47 uberism wrote:
Nice to see two 17 year olds from Mexico at rank 1 and 2 of the ladder (Maker and sixjaxTerran).
Also congrats to the 17 year old xsixMkengyn who was top 5 yesterday. Lots of young players stepping it up on the ladder. Spanishiwa as well ^^ Also WZP is from mexico, very young and in GM
They all play the same way, too; weird.
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I love how people are still saying, "Hey! This specific guy over here still isn't in it, and that specific guy over there isn't in it either!" Guys EVERY system will leave someone out for X or Y reason at the very borders. It's the same argument they make every single year when selecting the Top 64 teams for the NCAA tournament. They get in the majority that deserve to be in there and if you were barely left out, work harder next time so you won't be on the border.
The only thing people should take away from Grandmaster's is that it'll be the Top 200 players playing under Blizzard's system. Nothing more and nothing less.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Why the FUCK are there people in grand master league with 7-3, 16-8 etc stats?
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On April 16 2011 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Why the FUCK are there people in grand master league with 7-3, 16-8 etc stats?
Because their MMR is good?
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Sweden33719 Posts
You cant have a good MMR after 10 games -_- Thats so fucking abusable for one, and variance is huge.
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On April 16 2011 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Why the FUCK are there people in grand master league with 7-3, 16-8 etc stats?
Afaik people started with their mmr from S1, so if you had high mmr in S1 (top200 etc), then its easy to get into grand master. Most of the people in EU grandmaster was regulary on the top200 lists last season.
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Sweden33719 Posts
This system is so retarded, ive been on a plane all day but im stuck laddering bcuz if i dont i can never m9kmae maasters.
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On April 16 2011 03:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
You cant have a good MMR after 10 games -_- Thats so fucking abusable for one, and variance is huge.
Let's say you where #1 in the top 200 Season1, you play 2 games and your get into GM, then you don't play many more games. Why is that wrong?
There might be a discrepancy between MMR and acutal skill that would explain why some of the people known as pros are not in the top 200. Like Artosis, or you Jinro. There might not be ways to mesure how good you are with a simple algorithm.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 16 2011 03:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
You cant have a good MMR after 10 games -_- Thats so fucking abusable for one, and variance is huge.
Their MMRs carried over from Season 1 duder :V They had high MMRs to begin with.
We did have a theory that the top and bottom of the MMR span was lopped off, because people at the top of the ladder were losing way more points than they were gaining for each game. Maybe people who boycotted ladder until GM league came out were able to avoid that and preserve their inflated MMR. That's purely a guess on my part though. The more accurate answer is those guys with small records had high MMRs all along.
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On April 16 2011 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Why the FUCK are there people in grand master league with 7-3, 16-8 etc stats?
Yeah, Jinro. I was pretty pissed off as well. If the Season 1 ladder MMR is so damn important in the process then why was there a 2 week playing period if you basically didnt need to play?
There are are many top 200 players that missed GM this season. At least in NA.
Oh well =[
I just hope this doesnt end up like WC3 ladder where an entire pro season was screwed over.
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NA GM currently has 198 players, Europe has 199. After those spots are taken it will be at least 2 more weeks before anyone else gets in.
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Popularity and skill are 2 very different things.
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On April 16 2011 03:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
This system is so retarded, ive been on a plane all day but im stuck laddering bcuz if i dont i can never m9kmae maasters.
cant agree more. especially once you are in, u wont get off by losing games ... (technically, your bonus pool will not decrease if you dont lose, but ... does it make any sense that some ppl lose 500 games while win 0 in a week and still being grandmast??? )
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On April 15 2011 21:38 Koshi wrote:
I hope somebody makes a decent thread about the GM league when it is completely full. Then we can use those threads to discuss the players in it and the matches they played.
I also hope that Blizzard awards the nr1 spot in the GM league with a cash prize. Something around 3K$, 2nd 1.5K$ and 3th 500$. Which is not bad for a 3 month salary, if you are also competing in other tournaments. It gives some extra prestige to the ladder and the league.
Doesn't seem like a terrible idea, except that cash prizes on ladder might make maphacks/other hacks more prevalent as people will often do all sorts of things for money.
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On April 15 2011 00:48 meep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:47 uberism wrote:
Nice to see two 17 year olds from Mexico at rank 1 and 2 of the ladder (Maker and sixjaxTerran).
Also congrats to the 17 year old xsixMkengyn who was top 5 yesterday. Lots of young players stepping it up on the ladder. Spanishiwa as well ^^
didn't spanishiwa say in his day9 daily he was philipino
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On April 16 2011 04:35 J_D wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 21:38 Koshi wrote:
I hope somebody makes a decent thread about the GM league when it is completely full. Then we can use those threads to discuss the players in it and the matches they played.
I also hope that Blizzard awards the nr1 spot in the GM league with a cash prize. Something around 3K$, 2nd 1.5K$ and 3th 500$. Which is not bad for a 3 month salary, if you are also competing in other tournaments. It gives some extra prestige to the ladder and the league. Doesn't seem like a terrible idea, except that cash prizes on ladder might make maphacks/other hacks more prevalent as people will often do all sorts of things for money.
That's basically what the Blizzcon tournament is. Every year, they take the top X number of people from each region and invite them to play at Blizzcon. Winner usually gets $10,000 +. So that's plenty of incentive to maintain a high ladder rank.
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On April 16 2011 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Why the FUCK are there people in grand master league with 7-3, 16-8 etc stats?
I guess all we can hope for is they will drop out due to lack of activity soon, if they really are not playing that much?
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On April 16 2011 03:35 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 03:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Why the FUCK are there people in grand master league with 7-3, 16-8 etc stats? Because their MMR is good?
i guess he is talking about players who got new accounts and not who played only a few games this season
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On April 16 2011 04:38 naolin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:48 meep wrote:On April 15 2011 00:47 uberism wrote:
Nice to see two 17 year olds from Mexico at rank 1 and 2 of the ladder (Maker and sixjaxTerran).
Also congrats to the 17 year old xsixMkengyn who was top 5 yesterday. Lots of young players stepping it up on the ladder. Spanishiwa as well ^^ didn't spanishiwa say in his day9 daily he was philipino
Yes, he specifically said he's 80% Philippine which makes him of Asian decent, not Mexican. Like it matters, just confirming your post.
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there even are people wit h6-10 or so who were DIAMOND last season wtf is going on? oO
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On April 16 2011 04:35 J_D wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 21:38 Koshi wrote:
I hope somebody makes a decent thread about the GM league when it is completely full. Then we can use those threads to discuss the players in it and the matches they played.
I also hope that Blizzard awards the nr1 spot in the GM league with a cash prize. Something around 3K$, 2nd 1.5K$ and 3th 500$. Which is not bad for a 3 month salary, if you are also competing in other tournaments. It gives some extra prestige to the ladder and the league. Doesn't seem like a terrible idea, except that cash prizes on ladder might make maphacks/other hacks more prevalent as people will often do all sorts of things for money.
Lol not every GM league player is gonna ladder extensively. I'm probably going to play a few games a week unless there's a time I want to play when no practice partners or teammates want to play - it's too stressful, and I'm only going to play enough to not get knocked out of it
And besides, ladder is useful for only some limited forms of practicing.
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On April 16 2011 05:10 Pred8oar wrote:
there even are people wit h6-10 or so who were DIAMOND last season wtf is going on? oO
thats what bugs me.. Im ok with someone whos like under 20 games this season as long as its a big name over 4K last season like Jinro.. but when people are like 6-10 and not even past 3K masters last season and get in... thats stupid as hell.
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On April 16 2011 05:06 ahx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:38 naolin wrote:On April 15 2011 00:48 meep wrote:On April 15 2011 00:47 uberism wrote:
Nice to see two 17 year olds from Mexico at rank 1 and 2 of the ladder (Maker and sixjaxTerran).
Also congrats to the 17 year old xsixMkengyn who was top 5 yesterday. Lots of young players stepping it up on the ladder. Spanishiwa as well ^^ didn't spanishiwa say in his day9 daily he was philipino Yes, he specifically said he's 80% Philippine which makes him of Asian decent, not Mexican. Like it matters, just confirming your post.
i think he was just saying that spanishiwa is also 17 years old
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United States7081 Posts
On April 16 2011 03:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
This system is so retarded, ive been on a plane all day but im stuck laddering bcuz if i dont i can never m9kmae maasters.
Artosis: Stop logging into Frozenarbiter's account.
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hopefully blizzard actually announces how to qualify for blizzcon this year rather than secretly inviting 2 players from NA server
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On April 16 2011 05:37 acie wrote:
hopefully blizzard actually announces how to qualify for blizzcon this year rather than secretly inviting 2 players from NA server
It would be funny though, to have like CombatEX and some other random ladder guy battle it out for thousands of $$
I'd watch.
And yea i think the system might have some flaws, i see alot of people who are probably top 50 not getting in, really strange.
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I have a guess of what happened.
Let's say that GM is top 10.
When a player finishes a game it looks at the ladder and says "Who are the top 10 players that are active by MMR". Is the current player among them? Yes, add to grandmasters.
Then as the grandmasters fills up, some players that were previously inactive suddenly become active. Let's say that 5 players suddenly become active and they fill some of the spots. Now the minimum MMR to get into grandmasters has suddenly jumped leaving some players in grandmasters with a lower MMR than players in masters.
The problem with the grandmasters is it isn't adding the top MMR people, it's adding the top MMR people who are active. If you were inactive near the end of the two weeks of last season, it might be affecting this.
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i know there is a lot of combatEX hate on these forums and rightfully so, but lets face it the guy is pretty good at this game lol
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With the korean top 200, let's say that there were 30 inactive players that suddenly become active, then at most there will be 30 players who have a lower MMR than 30 players not in GM.
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How do these players with terrible w/l ratios get sooo many points? If they are GM or close to GM atleast, then they shouldn't be facing only favored people : /
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It would be really neat to have a tool/site (sc2ranks, I'm looking your way) that'd keep track of who gets kicked out of GM league and who gets in. The way Blizzard designed GM, that shouldn't be too many players, right?
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So, lets say a GM player goes on a massive losing streak, he will still not be demoted from GM league? Since the OP says the only way to get demoted is to accumulate 270 bonus pool pts?
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United States12235 Posts
On April 16 2011 07:56 Jerax wrote:
So, lets say a GM player goes on a massive losing streak, he will still not be demoted from GM league? Since the OP says the only way to get demoted is to accumulate 270 bonus pool pts?
Right. And it's 180 bonus pool not 270 (this was either changed or I was misremembering). But of course, the lower in MMR you get, the harder it gets to earn a lot of points per win which means the harder it is to spend your bonus pool.
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On April 16 2011 07:58 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 07:56 Jerax wrote:
So, lets say a GM player goes on a massive losing streak, he will still not be demoted from GM league? Since the OP says the only way to get demoted is to accumulate 270 bonus pool pts? Right. And it's 180 bonus pool not 270 (this was either changed or I was misremembering). But of course, the lower in MMR you get, the harder it gets to earn a lot of points per win which means the harder it is to spend your bonus pool.
With enaugh playd games he will get the bonus pool spent ... like even if he loses 1000 games in a row he will still manage to win a few games to use the bonus pool
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On April 16 2011 07:28 Conti wrote:
It would be really neat to have a tool/site (sc2ranks, I'm looking your way) that'd keep track of who gets kicked out of GM league and who gets in. The way Blizzard designed GM, that shouldn't be too many players, right?
It's tracked that kind of data for a long time. Given there isn't any real GM league demotions right now, it's not really a priority, but will see in a week or two.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 16 2011 09:45 Greenworld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 07:58 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 16 2011 07:56 Jerax wrote:
So, lets say a GM player goes on a massive losing streak, he will still not be demoted from GM league? Since the OP says the only way to get demoted is to accumulate 270 bonus pool pts? Right. And it's 180 bonus pool not 270 (this was either changed or I was misremembering). But of course, the lower in MMR you get, the harder it gets to earn a lot of points per win which means the harder it is to spend your bonus pool. With enaugh playd games he will get the bonus pool spent ... like even if he loses 1000 games in a row he will still manage to win a few games to use the bonus pool
It's still possible to win 0 points for a game though. I think if you lost 1000 games you would definitely fall into the "winning 0 points per game" category.
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On April 13 2011 15:40 Rizell wrote:
I really dont understand or like the GM system. For example, how can some great players not make it, while MaryLand is number 11 on EU GM right now with almost 300 games played these past 2 weeks... last season he was a 2800 diamond player... somehow he inflated his MMR high enough to enter GM during these 2 weeks.
Interesting character to follow regarding MMR is Maryland in EU server: http://sc2ranks.com/team/7395738#alltime
He was a diamond player (was in diamond also the first two weeks during season 2), but suddenly in few days he was first promoted to masters and then to grand masters after having massive win streak. After this he has won only 7 in his last 45 1v1 matches. Due to this lose streak he has dropped to 0 points in EU grand masters league. One could suspect that somebody else than him played his character to grand masters. Hopefully this kind of (possible) abuse does not happen much in future ladder seasons, but I am afraid it may become more common, as people cannot be demoted from gm league if they are active.
Regarding Maryland it will be interesting to follow up how his opponent levels progress, if his performance still continues to decrease in the future.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Theres 2 spots unfilled in Korea, am I understanding the OP correctly if I say this means theres 2 players with MMRs high enough to have slots reserved here, that are yet to play any games this season (or enough games), and that nobody has reached their MMR yet?
So, basically if the person with the highest MMR last season just didnt play, he could theoretically be blocking a GM spot until someone else gets that high MMR, someone else who isnt already GM...? Or am I not getting it?
Its kinda funny how many people arent making it into GM... Both LosirA and Ganzi are curently outside it (as am I).
Also everytime I see the two guys with <10 games played and yet still in GM, I want to kill myself.
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On April 18 2011 12:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
So, basically if the person with the highest MMR last season just didnt play, he could theoretically be blocking a GM spot until someone else gets that high MMR, someone else who isnt already GM...? Or am I not getting it?
They can block the spot until they hit 180 unused bonus points, at which point they will be immediately replaced by the next person on the list.
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On April 18 2011 12:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Theres 2 spots unfilled in Korea, am I understanding the OP correctly if I say this means theres 2 players with MMRs high enough to have slots reserved here, that are yet to play any games this season (or enough games), and that nobody has reached their MMR yet?
So, basically if the person with the highest MMR last season just didnt play, he could theoretically be blocking a GM spot until someone else gets that high MMR, someone else who isnt already GM...? Or am I not getting it?
Its kinda funny how many people arent making it into GM... Both LosirA and Ganzi are curently outside it (as am I).
Also everytime I see the two guys with <10 games played and yet still in GM, I want to kill myself. Aw poor Jinro I can understand your frustration, there's a guy with 7-1 in GM on EU and someone with 188-153 that went from 820 Master to 0 points GM in like 3 days xD (But he still will keep his spot as long as he spends his bonus pool.)
The system is so damn confusing, I think a way of looking at the ladder for professionals is as a place for free practice, the real competition is in tournaments.
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On April 18 2011 12:16 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 12:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
So, basically if the person with the highest MMR last season just didnt play, he could theoretically be blocking a GM spot until someone else gets that high MMR, someone else who isnt already GM...? Or am I not getting it? They can block the spot until they hit 180 unused bonus points, at which point they will be immediately replaced by the next person on the list.
Are you sure this is the case? How much bonus pool does ROOTKitty have? Keeping in mind that NA GM has all 200 slots filled..
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I don't understand why Grand Master allows for players to remain there a whole season. It seems like you should earn the right to keep your seat- so if your MMR falls below the top 300 you should be removed. The hundred separation MMR's will reduce the frequency of players around top 150+ from going on and off all the time.
This would at least give opportunity to master players who improve during a season and earn the right to get into Grandmaster.
I think the system should be changed.
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Excalibur, any idea why some people who seemingly SHOULD be in GM got snubbed? Such as vileHashe who was something like top 40 by points on the 12th and laddered some that day?
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Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster
I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.>
Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status".
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On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status".
Obviously this player ''http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster'' doesn't belong in GM but still you are wrong. With the exception of a few GM in EU is pretty accurate and all EU top players are in it. Stop crying about the system just because you didn't get in.
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On April 18 2011 15:32 Max_Muller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". Obviously this player ''http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster'' doesn't belong in GM but still you are wrong. With the exception of a few GM in EU is pretty accurate and all EU top players are in it. Stop crying about the system just because you didn't get in.
GM league is active for less than one week and it already has flaws. What can we expect in 2 months? Maryland is not the only flaw, it's just the most obvious flaw.
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On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status".
GM offset is 0, just like master league.
Edit:
Whoops, -150, not 0. Regardless it uses the same system as master league.
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On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league.
GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet.
That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters.
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On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters.
Hrm, not sure where I got that from, I swear it was from a blue post. Apologies for spreading false information then. I'll go and have a look and check I'm not crazy.
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A possible way to get a really good estimate of the league offset would be to track the points of the most active grandmaster players on a server. What you could do would be to see how many points they had in masters league before promotion, and then compare it to the number of points they have in GM after the same number of games.
Obviously you then have to account for bonus pool and the 73 points gained in promotion, but with enough players I think this could provide a solid estimate of the point offset.
Are there any issues I'm not seeing? Has someone already done this?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 18 2011 12:16 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 12:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
So, basically if the person with the highest MMR last season just didnt play, he could theoretically be blocking a GM spot until someone else gets that high MMR, someone else who isnt already GM...? Or am I not getting it? They can block the spot until they hit 180 unused bonus points, at which point they will be immediately replaced by the next person on the list.
You misunderstand me; there are two empty spots in the Korean GM league - I dont get why they are still empty with 100% of the server playing nonstop.
And for those saying GM is useless, Im pretty damn sure its gonna be used for Blizzcon qualifiers, because thats how they used the pro-ladder in WC3, and how they used the regular ladder in Korea for last Blizzcon --;
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On April 18 2011 20:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 12:16 Lysenko wrote:On April 18 2011 12:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
So, basically if the person with the highest MMR last season just didnt play, he could theoretically be blocking a GM spot until someone else gets that high MMR, someone else who isnt already GM...? Or am I not getting it? They can block the spot until they hit 180 unused bonus points, at which point they will be immediately replaced by the next person on the list. You misunderstand me; there are two empty spots in the Korean GM league - I dont get why they are still empty with 100% of the server playing nonstop. And for those saying GM is useless, Im pretty damn sure its gonna be used for Blizzcon qualifiers, because thats how they used the pro-ladder in WC3, and how they used the regular ladder in Korea for last Blizzcon --;
I would hope they use just the MMR for that.
There are some good player (like EGDeMusliM) that are not in GM. And there will be newcomers that wont be in either. Other good players will fall out of it because their bonus pool will get too high. Its just a very arbitrary thing.
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On April 18 2011 20:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 12:16 Lysenko wrote:On April 18 2011 12:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
So, basically if the person with the highest MMR last season just didnt play, he could theoretically be blocking a GM spot until someone else gets that high MMR, someone else who isnt already GM...? Or am I not getting it? They can block the spot until they hit 180 unused bonus points, at which point they will be immediately replaced by the next person on the list. You misunderstand me; there are two empty spots in the Korean GM league - I dont get why they are still empty with 100% of the server playing nonstop. And for those saying GM is useless, Im pretty damn sure its gonna be used for Blizzcon qualifiers, because thats how they used the pro-ladder in WC3, and how they used the regular ladder in Korea for last Blizzcon --;
He meant that they only block a GM spot (without being in GM) until they hit 180 bonus pool; as the GM league started 12.4. this is theoretically possible until 26.4. : if they had 0 bonus pool when GM came, but haven't played a game since to be checked for promotion. It can be hard to spot such accounts since they can be smurfs with low visible rating (due to having just a few games) but extra-high MMR.
Though I'm not certain if it's actually fact or just a guess that the high MMR blockers lose their GM "reservation" at 180 bonus pool like the people already in drop out at that point. Would make sense though.
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MVP and FD are not in GM KR yet if im not mistaken...altho their win ratios are pretty low... maybe its for them? =/
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Sweden33719 Posts
I think theres a fake MVP thats randoming, or the real MVP is randoming I dunno. There is one with like below 50% who offraces a lot anyway.
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Its only the first season there is bound to be some hic ups but I think it should be easier to drop out of GM and easier to get in rather than having to wait for someone to not play for 2 weeks ><.
Also gonna be a bit unfair for some of the pros who get unlucky and don't place and Blizzard uses this stuff for Blizzcon ><.
Edit - Did Artosis ever get in on NA? He was bitching hard on SOTG, he was like rank 80 points wise and wasn't getting into GM lol....
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On April 18 2011 20:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
You misunderstand me; there are two empty spots in the Korean GM league - I dont get why they are still empty with 100% of the server playing nonstop.
Have 180 bonus points been awarded since the GM league was established? If so, then I'm confused too. I think it's been a bit shy of that though. Until 180 bonus points are handed out, nobody's going to lose their spot (if I understand things correctly.)
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On April 18 2011 21:02 Silu wrote:
Though I'm not certain if it's actually fact or just a guess that the high MMR blockers lose their GM "reservation" at 180 bonus pool like the people already in drop out at that point. Would make sense though.
I'm pretty sure that's info that came directly from Blizzard.
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No Artosis in GM League yet. Maybe he got surpassed in MMR and his spot was taken. Sad thing =(
hope he makes it soon. <3
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On April 18 2011 22:01 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 20:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
You misunderstand me; there are two empty spots in the Korean GM league - I dont get why they are still empty with 100% of the server playing nonstop. Have 180 bonus points been awarded since the GM league was established? If so, then I'm confused too. I think it's been a bit shy of that though. Until 180 bonus points are handed out, nobody's going to lose their spot (if I understand things correctly.)
My understanding differs from yours. To be eligible for GM you must have less than 90 remaining bonus pool. To drop out you must have more than 180 remaining bonus pool. The difference is 90 points, ie exactly one week. This means that someone who barely got in GM with 90 bonus at the start would drop out one week later if he doesn't play at all.
However, we don't know if the 180 point limit applies to reserved spots. If it does, you will lose it after a week. If it doesn't, you will lose it immediately when your remaining bonus goes over 90.
The only reason I can see for the two empty spots is that those who have them reserved haven't won any games yet. Otherwise pieces of the puzzle are missing or my understanding is wrong.
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It would be very interesting if we could see the remaining bonus pool for every GM player, for example at sc2ranks.com. That way we would know when someone is close to dropping out. However, there seems to be a bug that makes it impossible to see remaining bonus for anyone ranked 101 or lower. A pity.
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On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters.
Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master.
People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess.
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On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess.
Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in...
I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period.
If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken.
And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted.
Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 18 2011 23:46 Mendelfist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 22:01 Lysenko wrote:On April 18 2011 20:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
You misunderstand me; there are two empty spots in the Korean GM league - I dont get why they are still empty with 100% of the server playing nonstop. Have 180 bonus points been awarded since the GM league was established? If so, then I'm confused too. I think it's been a bit shy of that though. Until 180 bonus points are handed out, nobody's going to lose their spot (if I understand things correctly.) My understanding differs from yours. To be eligible for GM you must have less than 90 remaining bonus pool. To drop out you must have more than 180 remaining bonus pool. The difference is 90 points, ie exactly one week. This means that someone who barely got in GM with 90 bonus at the start would drop out one week later if he doesn't play at all. However, we don't know if the 180 point limit applies to reserved spots. If it does, you will lose it after a week. If it doesn't, you will lose it immediately when your remaining bonus goes over 90. The only reason I can see for the two empty spots is that those who have them reserved haven't won any games yet. Otherwise pieces of the puzzle are missing or my understanding is wrong.
I think you're both right, but that lingering question remains: do pre-selected players lose their eligibility status at 90 bonus pool, or 180? As for the two open slots in Korea, who would be the two players who should have been promoted already?
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United States12235 Posts
On April 18 2011 13:31 ChrysaliS_ wrote:
Excalibur, any idea why some people who seemingly SHOULD be in GM got snubbed? Such as vileHashe who was something like top 40 by points on the 12th and laddered some that day?
The answer to that is easy: his MMR's moving average was below that of 200 other players. You would think that there would be a loose correlation of points to MMR, but of course we're seeing anomalies like HasHe, Artosis, Jinro. Maybe all of the people who didn't get in simply lost to the wrong people and beat players who were too easy? One thing these players can do to verify is to go back in their match history and see who they've played in the past 2-3 weeks who have since become Grandmasters. The more frequently their average opponent is GM, the more likely they were close to a GM promotion themselves.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points.
SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results.
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i dont think that its that great that its nearly impossible to get into grand masters if you arent in yet. many really good players arent in (huk for example^^), and it will really take a long time to get in....
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On April 19 2011 01:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points. SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results.
In that case what i just don't get is why he says things like ''I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons'' when the majority of the qualified players seem to make sense. Honestly saying this stuff based on a minority ''some really unexpected results'' just makes you look like a bad analyst in my opinion.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:04 Max_Muller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 01:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points. SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results. In that case what i just don't get is why he says things like ''I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons'' when the majority of the qualified players seem to make sense. Honestly saying this stuff based on a minority ''some really unexpected results'' just makes you look like a bad analyst in my opinion.
Because in most cases, the expected GM players would correlate to players who have been consistently in the Top 200 weekly blog rankings. When you have players like Jinro who didn't get in, that's surprising. It wouldn't be surprising if we could see and track MMR and MMR history, but we can't do that.
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On April 19 2011 02:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 02:04 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 01:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points. SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results. In that case what i just don't get is why he says things like ''I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons'' when the majority of the qualified players seem to make sense. Honestly saying this stuff based on a minority ''some really unexpected results'' just makes you look like a bad analyst in my opinion. Because in most cases, the expected GM players would correlate to players who have been consistently in the Top 200 weekly blog rankings. When you have players like Jinro who didn't get in, that's surprising. It wouldn't be surprising if we could see and track MMR and MMR history, but we can't do that. `
Isn't that just a matter of professionalism instead of a system flaw? Just like any other sport if you don't play the qualifier u won't get qualified! No matter how good you are! As for Jinro i think he was not able to play because he was at a tournament? Either way if you are a professional and you KNOW when you the Grand Master League is open, it's not a matter of ''having time to play'' but ''making time to play'' you leave nothing to chance or assumption. As for not being able to play because you are at a tournament that's unfortunate but thats also a part of professionalism, do i choice to participate at this tournament or do i make sure i get into the Grand Master League?
I don't think the system is broken, where i think Blizzard is wrong is that they should be more transparent about how things work.
As for players like Jinro, i don't think he has to worry because 1. He doesn't need GM to get invited/qualify for (most of the) important events because we all know how awesome he is 2. If he keeps playing ladder and stays on top of the master league i'm sure he will be one of the first players replacing a dropping GM player.
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On April 19 2011 02:58 Max_Muller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 02:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 02:04 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 01:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points. SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results. In that case what i just don't get is why he says things like ''I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons'' when the majority of the qualified players seem to make sense. Honestly saying this stuff based on a minority ''some really unexpected results'' just makes you look like a bad analyst in my opinion. Because in most cases, the expected GM players would correlate to players who have been consistently in the Top 200 weekly blog rankings. When you have players like Jinro who didn't get in, that's surprising. It wouldn't be surprising if we could see and track MMR and MMR history, but we can't do that. ` Isn't that just a matter of professionalism instead of a system flaw? Just like any other sport if you don't play the qualifier u won't get qualified! No matter how good you are! As for Jinro i think he was not able to play because he was at a tournament? Either way if you are a professional and you KNOW when you the Grand Master League is open, it's not a matter of ''having time to play'' but ''making time to play'' you leave nothing to chance or assumption. As for not being able to play because you are at a tournament that's unfortunate but thats also a part of professionalism, do i choice to participate at this tournament or do i make sure i get into the Grand Master League? I don't think the system is broken, where i think Blizzard is wrong is that they should be more transparent about how things work. As for players like Jinro, i don't think he has to worry because 1. He doesn't need GM to get invited/qualify for (most of the) important events because we all know how awesome he is 2. If he keeps playing ladder and stays on top of the master league i'm sure he will be one of the first players replacing a dropping GM player.
Blizzard doesn't show us players' MMR, so it's not like it's easy to prove how bad GM league was designed. Maryland is just an exemple that anyone can look and agree, but if there is a huge mistake like this at the first week of GM implementation, there is bound to be a lot of smaller ones as well, specially in 2-3 months. So I keep my opinion, it's a flawed system. The top 100 is probably stable enough and will be fine for months, but top 150-200 has always been pretty unstable, and setting them for a whole season makes it pretty random indeed. Also, the modifications in the MMR system with patch 1.3 makes me believe that not only the top 150-200 was somewhat random this season. But again, we can't see MMR, I can't prove it, but that also means you can't prove me wrong as well though.
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I got in because my MMR most likely experienced a dramatic increase when I played a lot at the beginning of this season, when "less" skilled people were on. My win rate was absurdly high for a while, and I found out it was because I was playing masters players that were only around ~3,600 the previous season. Not because my MMR suddenly tanked before the reset, but just because the top 200 ppl just weren't as active it seemed. I still played some top ppl, just simply less frequency. I was constantly bordering at around ~215-250 before the season reset, which is why I realized that I could make top 200 if some players just weren't active at the beginning, as well as some smurfs getting removed (or just ppl from EU/KR).
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On April 19 2011 02:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 02:04 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 01:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points. SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results. In that case what i just don't get is why he says things like ''I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons'' when the majority of the qualified players seem to make sense. Honestly saying this stuff based on a minority ''some really unexpected results'' just makes you look like a bad analyst in my opinion. Because in most cases, the expected GM players would correlate to players who have been consistently in the Top 200 weekly blog rankings. When you have players like Jinro who didn't get in, that's surprising. It wouldn't be surprising if we could see and track MMR and MMR history, but we can't do that.
Exca, I had a theory which is that at the end of the last season, there were a certain # of players that were active in the top 200. Now lets assume that a sudden burst of newly active players (50) have a higher MMR than like the bottom 50 of the previously active top 200, however, because some players in those previously top 200 had already qualified, then the reserved spots for the top 200 would suddenly change. Jinro said he had a pretty late start right? Imagine if jinro was like #180, but #'s 1-169 and 181-200 already qualified and then 10 previously inactivate players decided to play and were rated higher than jinro (putting him at 190#), however, because some lower tier players made it into grandmaster, there is no more room for players 170-180. This could happen at any level and is probably happening at a mix of different ranks (jinro could be #50 and this can still happen). My guess is their algorithm looks at (currently active players not in grandmasters) + (current players in grandmasters) to determine if the current player should be promoted. The algorithm then says "Ok, there are 2 spots left in grandmasters, is the player i'm looking at in the top 2 of active players not in grandmasters?" rather than "Is the current player in the top 200 of all active players" It does NOT factor in MMR other than to rank active non-grandmasters players. If other players had a head start and a whole bunch of inactives suddenly became active, then there are probably several players who got shafted out of a spot.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 20 2011 01:17 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 02:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 02:04 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 01:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points. SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results. In that case what i just don't get is why he says things like ''I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons'' when the majority of the qualified players seem to make sense. Honestly saying this stuff based on a minority ''some really unexpected results'' just makes you look like a bad analyst in my opinion. Because in most cases, the expected GM players would correlate to players who have been consistently in the Top 200 weekly blog rankings. When you have players like Jinro who didn't get in, that's surprising. It wouldn't be surprising if we could see and track MMR and MMR history, but we can't do that. Exca, I had a theory which is that at the end of the last season, there were a certain # of players that were active in the top 200. Now lets assume that a sudden burst of newly active players (50) have a higher MMR than like the bottom 50 of the previously active top 200, however, because some players in those previously top 200 had already qualified, then the reserved spots for the top 200 would suddenly change. Jinro said he had a pretty late start right? Imagine if jinro was like #180, but #'s 1-169 and 181-200 already qualified and then 10 previously inactivate players decided to play and were rated higher than jinro (putting him at 190#), however, because some lower tier players made it into grandmaster, there is no more room for players 170-180. This could happen at any level and is probably happening at a mix of different ranks (jinro could be #50 and this can still happen). My guess is their algorithm looks at (currently active players not in grandmasters) + (current players in grandmasters) to determine if the current player should be promoted. The algorithm then says "Ok, there are 2 spots left in grandmasters, is the player i'm looking at in the top 2 of active players not in grandmasters?" rather than "Is the current player in the top 200 of all active players" It does NOT factor in MMR other than to rank active non-grandmasters players. If other players had a head start and a whole bunch of inactives suddenly became active, then there are probably several players who got shafted out of a spot.
That is possible. I guess it would depend on how exactly it reserves players.
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It's kind of bad design though. As long as you play you can never get kicked out of gm? Yeah you'll lose a bunch, but eventually your mmr drops off to where you get matched vs masters people and can spend the bonus pool. So even if you are bottom of gm you're still feeding points to people higher than you. I think soon we'll see a very large drop off in skill between very top of GM and bottom of GM, despite it being such a small division.
I don't think I would have minded them doing a complete ladder reset or at least been more transparent about MMR. When I think best of the best, combatex doesn't come to mind
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On April 20 2011 04:55 Playguuu wrote:
It's kind of bad design though. As long as you play you can never get kicked out of gm? Yeah you'll lose a bunch, but eventually your mmr drops off to where you get matched vs masters people and can spend the bonus pool. So even if you are bottom of gm you're still feeding points to people higher than you. I think soon we'll see a very large drop off in skill between very top of GM and bottom of GM, despite it being such a small division.
I don't think I would have minded them doing a complete ladder reset or at least been more transparent about MMR. When I think best of the best, combatex doesn't come to mind
Even the top of GM will still get matched vs Masters no matter what... just because of player activity most likely, and having some players in our GM that aren't even from NA server (meaning when they are on, they're on when most of us in NA aren't). I'd say 50% of my games are vs Masters level players, but I'm not even sure I'm top 200 material anyways (I'd say I'm close, if not, though!).
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On April 20 2011 04:55 Playguuu wrote:
It's kind of bad design though. As long as you play you can never get kicked out of gm? Yeah you'll lose a bunch, but eventually your mmr drops off to where you get matched vs masters people and can spend the bonus pool. So even if you are bottom of gm you're still feeding points to people higher than you. I think soon we'll see a very large drop off in skill between very top of GM and bottom of GM, despite it being such a small division.
I don't think I would have minded them doing a complete ladder reset or at least been more transparent about MMR. When I think best of the best, combatex doesn't come to mind
You should accept the fact that combatEx is at least a good SC2 player despite his horrendous BM.
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On April 20 2011 04:41 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 01:17 darmousseh wrote:On April 19 2011 02:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 02:04 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 01:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:On April 18 2011 13:52 SDream wrote:Maryland has proved to me that there's only one way of getting a "demotion" that is having more than 180 bonus pool: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmasterI won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons >.> Edit: We need to discover the GM offset as soon as possible so we can fuse them on sc2ranks and ignore its "status". GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points. SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results. In that case what i just don't get is why he says things like ''I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons'' when the majority of the qualified players seem to make sense. Honestly saying this stuff based on a minority ''some really unexpected results'' just makes you look like a bad analyst in my opinion. Because in most cases, the expected GM players would correlate to players who have been consistently in the Top 200 weekly blog rankings. When you have players like Jinro who didn't get in, that's surprising. It wouldn't be surprising if we could see and track MMR and MMR history, but we can't do that. Exca, I had a theory which is that at the end of the last season, there were a certain # of players that were active in the top 200. Now lets assume that a sudden burst of newly active players (50) have a higher MMR than like the bottom 50 of the previously active top 200, however, because some players in those previously top 200 had already qualified, then the reserved spots for the top 200 would suddenly change. Jinro said he had a pretty late start right? Imagine if jinro was like #180, but #'s 1-169 and 181-200 already qualified and then 10 previously inactivate players decided to play and were rated higher than jinro (putting him at 190#), however, because some lower tier players made it into grandmaster, there is no more room for players 170-180. This could happen at any level and is probably happening at a mix of different ranks (jinro could be #50 and this can still happen). My guess is their algorithm looks at (currently active players not in grandmasters) + (current players in grandmasters) to determine if the current player should be promoted. The algorithm then says "Ok, there are 2 spots left in grandmasters, is the player i'm looking at in the top 2 of active players not in grandmasters?" rather than "Is the current player in the top 200 of all active players" It does NOT factor in MMR other than to rank active non-grandmasters players. If other players had a head start and a whole bunch of inactives suddenly became active, then there are probably several players who got shafted out of a spot. That is possible. I guess it would depend on how exactly it reserves players.
Another thing to consider-- suppose one of the Grandmasters lets his bonus pool go over 180. Is the system going to wait until the highest-MMR non-Grandmaster with less than 180 bonus plays a game to promote him, or will it be the first to play who's above a certain threshhold? Overall seems like a stupid system to me, they should just have it be a regular league but increase the buffers for promotion/demotion.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 20 2011 05:43 ChrysaliS_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 04:41 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 20 2011 01:17 darmousseh wrote:On April 19 2011 02:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 02:04 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 01:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 19 2011 01:17 Max_Muller wrote:On April 19 2011 00:19 bLah. wrote:On April 18 2011 15:54 SDream wrote:On April 18 2011 15:52 Happy Frog wrote:
[quote]
GM offset is 0, just like master league. GM offset is something around 430 (from master), but we don't have the exact number yet. That means that 0 points in GM is +/- 430 points in Masters. Erm, not sure how you intend to "merge" those leagues when transfering people from master into grandmaster is the same as with diamond -> master. People who get into grandmaster get some amount of points. If you take a look at sc2ranks you can see that some people had their points reduced from 1100 to 320, while some other people had their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. basically everyone got about 330 points depending on their bonus pool I guess. Good point and actually i was thinking the same, i got in GM with 255 and i had 850 in master league while a friend of mine got in GM with 250 with 1000+ in master league. And honestly to me it just looks like this SDream is just bitching on the system because he didn't got in... I mean he shows the record of one player and cries that the system is broken, but if you take a look at the current GM top 50 (im talking about EU btw) it represents the top players of EU as we have seen in the past couple of months in the weekly top 200 with the exception of a few which can be found lower in GM simply because they just have not been active lately. The only player i really miss is TheMusliM but i think he just have not been playing in the qualifier period. If i look at the rest of the GM league, almost all player names are familiar to me because they have been in and out the top 200. There are maybe 10 players i don't recognize and sure maybe some of those players don't belong in the GM but that doesn't mean that the entire GM system is broken. And for those who didn't get in, stop crying about the system and start realizing that either you are just not good enough or you didn't take proper action when needed to get into the GM league. All the information on how to get in was released long before the GM release and if you had the time and dedication to get at the skill level needed for GM i'm sure you could have just played between one or five games before going to work/college to make sure you get promoted. Besides remember that players like http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/827507/1/Maryland/ladder/grandmaster will get a hard time spending their bonuspool because if they don't belong in GM they will lose a lot of games and earn less points. SDream is just an analyst like me, he's a newbie at this game =) He's not complaining that he didn't get in, there are just some really unexpected results. In that case what i just don't get is why he says things like ''I won't even consider GM league as a league anymore, it's just a random thing that happens to random players for random reasons'' when the majority of the qualified players seem to make sense. Honestly saying this stuff based on a minority ''some really unexpected results'' just makes you look like a bad analyst in my opinion. Because in most cases, the expected GM players would correlate to players who have been consistently in the Top 200 weekly blog rankings. When you have players like Jinro who didn't get in, that's surprising. It wouldn't be surprising if we could see and track MMR and MMR history, but we can't do that. Exca, I had a theory which is that at the end of the last season, there were a certain # of players that were active in the top 200. Now lets assume that a sudden burst of newly active players (50) have a higher MMR than like the bottom 50 of the previously active top 200, however, because some players in those previously top 200 had already qualified, then the reserved spots for the top 200 would suddenly change. Jinro said he had a pretty late start right? Imagine if jinro was like #180, but #'s 1-169 and 181-200 already qualified and then 10 previously inactivate players decided to play and were rated higher than jinro (putting him at 190#), however, because some lower tier players made it into grandmaster, there is no more room for players 170-180. This could happen at any level and is probably happening at a mix of different ranks (jinro could be #50 and this can still happen). My guess is their algorithm looks at (currently active players not in grandmasters) + (current players in grandmasters) to determine if the current player should be promoted. The algorithm then says "Ok, there are 2 spots left in grandmasters, is the player i'm looking at in the top 2 of active players not in grandmasters?" rather than "Is the current player in the top 200 of all active players" It does NOT factor in MMR other than to rank active non-grandmasters players. If other players had a head start and a whole bunch of inactives suddenly became active, then there are probably several players who got shafted out of a spot. That is possible. I guess it would depend on how exactly it reserves players. Another thing to consider-- suppose one of the Grandmasters lets his bonus pool go over 180. Is the system going to wait until the highest-MMR non-Grandmaster with less than 180 bonus plays a game to promote him, or will it be the first to play who's above a certain threshhold? Overall seems like a stupid system to me, they should just have it be a regular league but increase the buffers for promotion/demotion.
So the way it's supposed to be is like this: "If #1 and #2 don’t [win before they reach 180 bonus pool], but #3 and #4 did, all the way down to 200, then #3 may as well be #1, and we’ll grab 201 and 202 if they’re active. Those will become, in theory, 199 and 200."
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So here's a question that I haven't seen though I've read about 2/3 of this thread. We know players will be removed when their bonus pool hits 180, however do we know if they have to play a game? Every other league the players must play a game to get moved up/down. Will GM change their division when they aren't even on? or only if they play a league match of any kind? This is what I personally will be watching for. As of last night the highest bonus pool I found was about 135 on the NA GM.
Note:I'm interested as i like to see how these systems work, not so much that I think i'll ever get in. wooo for low masters.
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On April 20 2011 06:55 neo_sporin wrote:
So here's a question that I haven't seen though I've read about 2/3 of this thread. We know players will be removed when their bonus pool hits 180, however do we know if they have to play a game? Every other league the players must play a game to get moved up/down. Will GM change their division when they aren't even on? or only if they play a league match of any kind? This is what I personally will be watching for. As of last night the highest bonus pool I found was about 135 on the NA GM.
Note:I'm interested as i like to see how these systems work, not so much that I think i'll ever get in. wooo for low masters.
Requiring them to play a game would completely defeat the purpose of having the bonus pool elimination lol.
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Personally i'd love to see a fluxuating grandmaster league, having it basically locked until one of the top 200 members goes above X points seems dumb to me.
Obviously people have brought up the point that some of the big names players did not get in, i'm not gonna say i didnt try to get in, but took a nice 3 day losing streak to end that hope lol.
But seriously, why have a GM league of the top 200 players, when it was only decided in the first 2 weeks? I'd love to see a fluxuating league to see who really is taking over the top 200 and see who broke through the bottom point wise to be top 200.
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RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
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If Grand Masters league is anything like the WC3 season ladder then there will be invites for (big name) players who did not make the league, assuming Grand Masters league cummulates in a tournament such as Blizzcon.
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I think it will be interesting to see what happens with the league as the season goes on. Thing is, anyone who popped into the league after being inactive for a long time is likely to wind up inactive again. Being in grandmaster league won't be enough on its own for them to be active players if master league wasn't enough. This may mean a bunch of promotions later on.
Now, another question is: suppose a grandmaster player keeps using up their bonus pool but their MMR moving average gets low enough for them to be demoted to Diamond. I'd imagine they should get demoted, but it sounds like that might not happen (or is assumed to be impossible.)
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United States12235 Posts
On April 20 2011 11:39 nyc863 wrote:
RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
Not necessarily. People who ladder a lot may be able to get a lot of points, easily enough to get into the top of Master on SC2ranks, but may not necessarily have an MMR in the top 200.
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Whats the point difference between masters and grandmasters?
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United States12235 Posts
On April 21 2011 05:51 Najda wrote:
Whats the point difference between masters and grandmasters?
That's still something we're trying to determine. So far the estimate is between -350 and -450 from Master.
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On April 21 2011 06:26 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 05:51 Najda wrote:
Whats the point difference between masters and grandmasters? That's still something we're trying to determine. So far the estimate is between -350 and -450 from Master.
are you sure that there is point difference?
I've seen examples where people got their points reduced to cca.330 even if some of them had 700 and some others had 1100.
Also some people got their points increased from 60 to 220 etc.
It just seems that they adjusted their points like when going into masters.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 21 2011 06:30 bLah. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 06:26 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 21 2011 05:51 Najda wrote:
Whats the point difference between masters and grandmasters? That's still something we're trying to determine. So far the estimate is between -350 and -450 from Master. are you sure that there is point difference? I've seen examples where people got their points reduced to cca.330 even if some of them had 700 and some others had 1100. Also some people got their points increased from 60 to 220 etc. It just seems that they adjusted their points like when going into masters.
There's a point reset with every league change. No matter what league you get promoted or demoted into, your points are always reset to 73 + your spent bonus pool.
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Another minor thing to consider might be the time at which people are laddering, as in if you're laddering at absurd times with less competetiveness, like 3am, you might be able to "farm" MMR relatively easy.
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On April 21 2011 07:03 Prfx wrote:
Another minor thing to consider might be the time at which people are laddering, as in if you're laddering at absurd times with less competetiveness, like 3am, you might be able to "farm" MMR relatively easy.
from a person who has laddered at all times, I can certainly say 3am isn't the easiest. around 9am-1pm PST are easy ladder times. 1pm-12pm, Are ok, and 1am-9am is the hardest.
From my experience you play a lot of Koreans and Europeans at 1am-9am, While at 1pm - 12am, You play a lot of Americans. Usually at 9am-1pm You just play either tired people or the early risers.
Anyways thats just my experience from having a very messed up sleep pattern and playing at each time for more than a couple of weeks.
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On April 21 2011 01:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 11:39 nyc863 wrote:
RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
Not necessarily. People who ladder a lot may be able to get a lot of points, easily enough to get into the top of Master on SC2ranks, but may not necessarily have an MMR in the top 200.
I know this theory might apply to nobodies.
but these two guys finish high in big tournaments.
their win/loss ratios are high.
they are at the top of their leagues, and play other pro players with 50:50 results.
Again. If MMR contains the "real" ability and can remain hidden from all the *public* indications of ability for so long, for such constant ladder players, then the ladder rankings (that we can see) are all bogus and broken.
But I don't think the public rankings are so broken, if RootCatz plays someone middling (rather than top) in masters league, he knows he is likely to be better than they are.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 21 2011 16:50 nyc863 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 01:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 20 2011 11:39 nyc863 wrote:
RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
Not necessarily. People who ladder a lot may be able to get a lot of points, easily enough to get into the top of Master on SC2ranks, but may not necessarily have an MMR in the top 200. I know this theory might apply to nobodies. but these two guys finish high in big tournaments. their win/loss ratios are high. they are at the top of their leagues, and play other pro players with 50:50 results. Again. If MMR contains the "real" ability and can remain hidden from all the *public* indications of ability for so long, for such constant ladder players, then the ladder rankings (that we can see) are all bogus and broken. But I don't think the public rankings are so broken, if RootCatz plays someone middling (rather than top) in masters league, he knows he is likely to be better than they are.
Skill curves are asymptotic (like ICCup for example where a B+ player was way way better than a B player), so while CatZ may be way way better than a middling Master player, his skill may still be below the top 200 players in MMR even though his points are in the top 200. I'll give you a proper example. Season 2 begins, someone like the #100 MMR guy plays a little, not a lot, just to get his bonus pool below 90 so he can become eligible for Grandmaster in a couple of weeks. However, the #1,000 guy really grinds games out and is able to get his points up to the top 100 in the region with ease, because even though he's at #1,000 in MMR, that's still far above the average Master league player which is who is feeding him points. The point difference between the #100 and #1,000 guy could even be huge -- say 500 points or more -- just because the #1,000 guy chose to play a lot more games.
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On April 22 2011 00:46 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 16:50 nyc863 wrote:On April 21 2011 01:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 20 2011 11:39 nyc863 wrote:
RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
Not necessarily. People who ladder a lot may be able to get a lot of points, easily enough to get into the top of Master on SC2ranks, but may not necessarily have an MMR in the top 200. I know this theory might apply to nobodies. but these two guys finish high in big tournaments. their win/loss ratios are high. they are at the top of their leagues, and play other pro players with 50:50 results. Again. If MMR contains the "real" ability and can remain hidden from all the *public* indications of ability for so long, for such constant ladder players, then the ladder rankings (that we can see) are all bogus and broken. But I don't think the public rankings are so broken, if RootCatz plays someone middling (rather than top) in masters league, he knows he is likely to be better than they are. Skill curves are asymptotic (like ICCup for example where a B+ player was way way better than a B player), so while CatZ may be way way better than a middling Master player, his skill may still be below the top 200 players in MMR even though his points are in the top 200. I'll give you a proper example. Season 2 begins, someone like the #100 MMR guy plays a little, not a lot, just to get his bonus pool below 90 so he can become eligible for Grandmaster in a couple of weeks. However, the #1,000 guy really grinds games out and is able to get his points up to the top 100 in the region with ease, because even though he's at #1,000 in MMR, that's still far above the average Master league player which is who is feeding him points. The point difference between the #100 and #1,000 guy could even be huge -- say 500 points or more -- just because the #1,000 guy chose to play a lot more games.
I get what you are saying but somebody like Darkforce is one of the best european zergs, he only plays pro players when laddering. His MMR should be top 200. But he didn't get in right? Just doesn't make sense. Also, could somebody explain how I just got matched against Dimaga and Mondragon(lost both ofcourse) I got like 750 points in masters, how can I match people that highly skilled lol.
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Just looked at the Grand Master League standings for Europe - Happy is leading with 176wins to 22 losses!
How is that even possible to win so much on the absolut Top of the ladder?
I am speechless...
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Because Happy plays smart and defensivly, he rarely looses due luck
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On April 22 2011 00:51 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 00:46 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 21 2011 16:50 nyc863 wrote:On April 21 2011 01:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 20 2011 11:39 nyc863 wrote:
RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
Not necessarily. People who ladder a lot may be able to get a lot of points, easily enough to get into the top of Master on SC2ranks, but may not necessarily have an MMR in the top 200. I know this theory might apply to nobodies. but these two guys finish high in big tournaments. their win/loss ratios are high. they are at the top of their leagues, and play other pro players with 50:50 results. Again. If MMR contains the "real" ability and can remain hidden from all the *public* indications of ability for so long, for such constant ladder players, then the ladder rankings (that we can see) are all bogus and broken. But I don't think the public rankings are so broken, if RootCatz plays someone middling (rather than top) in masters league, he knows he is likely to be better than they are. Skill curves are asymptotic (like ICCup for example where a B+ player was way way better than a B player), so while CatZ may be way way better than a middling Master player, his skill may still be below the top 200 players in MMR even though his points are in the top 200. I'll give you a proper example. Season 2 begins, someone like the #100 MMR guy plays a little, not a lot, just to get his bonus pool below 90 so he can become eligible for Grandmaster in a couple of weeks. However, the #1,000 guy really grinds games out and is able to get his points up to the top 100 in the region with ease, because even though he's at #1,000 in MMR, that's still far above the average Master league player which is who is feeding him points. The point difference between the #100 and #1,000 guy could even be huge -- say 500 points or more -- just because the #1,000 guy chose to play a lot more games. I get what you are saying but somebody like Darkforce is one of the best european zergs, he only plays pro players when laddering. His MMR should be top 200. But he didn't get in right? Just doesn't make sense. Also, could somebody explain how I just got matched against Dimaga and Mondragon(lost both ofcourse) I got like 750 points in masters, how can I match people that highly skilled lol.
DarkForce did get into the GM league, for some reason it took him a while (like 1-2 days of a lot of games after the GM league was out), but he did get in eventually.
Link to his profile:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/175901/1/aTnDarKFoRcE/
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On April 20 2011 11:39 nyc863 wrote:
RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
Also the fact that everyone's favorite Combat-EX is in the GM league.
But its ladder, right? It doeskin mean shit. the GM league is basically saying "OK who best at ladder"
What matters is the tournaments, NASL, MLG, Dreamhack, etc.
Both Catz and Jimmy perform very well at tournaments like MLG so thats what matters IMHO
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 20 2011 11:39 nyc863 wrote:
RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/315652/ROOTCatZ
He only has 733 points. Maybe Catz is a good player in tournaments but maybe he sucks on the ladder. People who laddered over 100 games needed around 870 points at the beginning of tuesday to get into GM.
If you look at his chart on sc2ranks. He started slumping a week before GM was released. Falling from 953 on April 9th to 733 on April 21th. His MMR was just not top 200 at the time GM was released.
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United States12235 Posts
Hm weird, do they still have the icon in-game I wonder? It's interesting that because those players don't actually appear in the GM division list, I can't see their bonus pools. Maybe it's just a web bug.
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/LHLPT.jpg)
in-game they just appear as if they don't belong anywhere. Cause they don't indeed. I thought they'd be automaticly put into a division, but no.
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On April 22 2011 05:58 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 11:39 nyc863 wrote:
RootCatz and ThisIsJimmy did not get in, both wanted to, at least one ladders a LOT, both ranked in the top 100 for a long time, RootCatz #25. Apparently neither will be allowed into the GM League for some considerable time, no matter how well they play.
These facts alone are enough to tell me that GM League by Blizzard is screwed up
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/315652/ROOTCatZHe only has 733 points. Maybe Catz is a good player in tournaments but maybe he sucks on the ladder. People who laddered over 100 games needed around 870 points at the beginning of tuesday to get into GM. If you look at his chart on sc2ranks. He started slumping a week before GM was released. Falling from 953 on April 9th to 733 on April 21th. His MMR was just not top 200 at the time GM was released.
CatZ can be pretty good on ladder. He's gotten as high as 2 in NA, a few months ago, to the best of my knowledge. In the past, he's held top 25 spots for quite a while. He doesn't play completely tryhard 100% of the time on ladder though. Around the time of the GM launch, he was actually off-racing, and this virtually was the sole cause of his sharp plummet in the ladder ranks.
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CatZ is playing on his WeWin account
How are there 202 people in GM? I want in ;; i got the proest w/r / games played in masters :D
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On April 27 2011 15:08 sAfuRos wrote:
CatZ is playing on his WeWin account
How are there 202 people in GM? I want in ;; i got the proest w/r / games played in masters :D
sc2ranks doesn't have the right numbers because people kicked from GM still remain GM status on battle.net website and sc2ranks collect the data from there.
Right now, only 197 players are indeed in US GM league, actually it has been some good 4 or more days that US had 2 spots for GM and no one took it, pretty weird.
Root wewin account is right now top 1 master (US), but he is playing and not getting promoted, no one is... maybe catz is somewhat unstable so his mmr moving average just can't exactly reach the right number?
Go catz, we believe in you *-*
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On April 27 2011 15:08 sAfuRos wrote:
CatZ is playing on his WeWin account
How are there 202 people in GM? I want in ;; i got the proest w/r / games played in masters :D
Right now there are actually 203 people in the EU Grandmaster.
http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/eu/grandmaster/1/all/points/200
Just heard in the ESL-DemusliM-Stream that he was promoted today, and it seems ThorZain also got promoted with a 7-0, so im happy that his training for TSL and therefore not making GM-League at the start did not have any effect on this.
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Ill contribute to this thread if it can help your theory a bit.
I'm about high masters but not top200, Probably around rank 300-400 or so. I played an opponent xiLith who was not in GM, but there were about 15 spots remaining. After he beat me, he got promoted to GM. I'm rather surprised because my mmr/rank was rather low and his promotion match was off me, not off someone of higher caliber.
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United States12235 Posts
On April 29 2011 08:39 isospeedrix wrote:
Ill contribute to this thread if it can help your theory a bit.
I'm about high masters but not top200, Probably around rank 300-400 or so. I played an opponent xiLith who was not in GM, but there were about 15 spots remaining. After he beat me, he got promoted to GM. I'm rather surprised because my mmr/rank was rather low and his promotion match was off me, not off someone of higher caliber.
xiLith? I'm almost 100% positive that he was GM when I looked a couple of weeks ago.
(this would mean that he dropped out due to inactivity then got promoted back in)
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 29 2011 10:33 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 08:39 isospeedrix wrote:
Ill contribute to this thread if it can help your theory a bit.
I'm about high masters but not top200, Probably around rank 300-400 or so. I played an opponent xiLith who was not in GM, but there were about 15 spots remaining. After he beat me, he got promoted to GM. I'm rather surprised because my mmr/rank was rather low and his promotion match was off me, not off someone of higher caliber. xiLith? I'm almost 100% positive that he was GM when I looked a couple of weeks ago. (this would mean that he dropped out due to inactivity then got promoted back in)
xiLith got in thursday on GM week. He played 150 games from tuesday to thursday and went about 100-50 to get in.
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If EU gm could get rid of maryland all would be well in the best of worlds. He's actually playing diamond players now in his match history v.v
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Im a diamond player and i recently played a masters terran with a 82% win ratio called, IMHope. I played terrible that game and lost, even though i probably wouldve still lost if i played my best. A couple days later i went into my match history and saw that the game i lost against him wasnt there, so i went on sc2ranks and searched the guy up and found that he was recently promoted to grandmasters.
Was my match against this player negated because of the skill gap or is it just a glitch that it isnt showing up in my match history?
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On May 05 2011 12:21 Cookie wrote:
Im a diamond player and i recently played a masters terran with a 82% win ratio called, IMHope. I played terrible that game and lost, even though i probably wouldve still lost if i played my best. A couple days later i went into my match history and saw that the game i lost against him wasnt there, so i went on sc2ranks and searched the guy up and found that he was recently promoted to grandmasters.
Was my match against this player negated because of the skill gap or is it just a glitch that it isnt showing up in my match history?
It's a glitch, If a GM fight a Gold and the GM wins, he'll win zero points, the Gold will lose zero points, but it will still be in the match history.
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Edit: Sorry, I can't read, I saw the first part was answered a few posts up.
Any idea why there are more than 200 people in GM: http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/us/grandmaster/1/all/points/200
Does it not demote people until they play a game after they go inactive? Or does it not demote them at all.
Speaking of demotion, are there any examples and did they lose a constant amount of points at demotion? Maybe there's a way to compare points from master to grandmaster?
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On May 06 2011 01:09 MoreFaSho wrote:Edit: Sorry, I can't read, I saw the first part was answered a few posts up. Any idea why there are more than 200 people in GM: http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/us/grandmaster/1/all/points/200Does it not demote people until they play a game after they go inactive? Or does it not demote them at all. Speaking of demotion, are there any examples and did they lose a constant amount of points at demotion? Maybe there's a way to compare points from master to grandmaster?
because sc2ranks is out of date, and isnt handling demotions from GM properly it seems.
From watching the GM list around the time of 180 bonus pool on some inactive players, they just instantly are knocked down out of the league it seems. As in not included in the official list by blizzard, but they're accounts still so show GM until they play a game i think...
for example. Inactive player.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/463882/1/SuperMenke/
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People are demoted at the second they reach 181, not 180 as some could think.
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I want to bring up another small issue with the Grandmaster league system that doesn't really affect NA/EU/KR, forgive me if it's already been brought up.
So when someone is promoted to the Grandmaster league they start off with 73 + bonus points. I was recently promoted to the GM league on the SEA server and ended up with 520 points. If you take a look at SC2Ranks, this actually ends up being rank #36 on the SEA server (see below). This is similar for the other less populated servers. Obviously this is stupid as I'm basically skipping the majority of the league just by being promoted.
Just wanted to point this out as another flaw of the league.
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States12235 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:39 youngminii wrote:I want to bring up another small issue with the Grandmaster league system that doesn't really affect NA/EU/KR, forgive me if it's already been brought up. So when someone is promoted to the Grandmaster league they start off with 73 + bonus points. I was recently promoted to the GM league on the SEA server and ended up with 520 points. If you take a look at SC2Ranks, this actually ends up being rank #36 on the SEA server (see below). This is similar for the other less populated servers. Obviously this is stupid as I'm basically skipping the majority of the league just by being promoted. Just wanted to point this out as another flaw of the league. + Show Spoiler +
Yeah, SDream was saying he thinks that the GM offset might already be different for LA, so maybe it's going to be re-evaluated for each server based on the MMR ranges per region. LA is (or was at 1.3 anyway) very much the same, where player points in GM were mostly trending downward because much of the top 200 didn't even meet the skill requirement for Master, so they were basically getting punished.
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LA GM seems to have 130-210 points more than they "should" by the old numbers, but I won't try to figure it out anytime soon.
I actually think they also changed the Master mmr requirement because some not so high diamond in LA server have been promoted (to master league) and bragging on foruns, I actually think they shouldn't be there, but I have no way to confirm that unfortunatelly and Blizzard doesn't like to tell us these things
If true, that shows that Blizzard can hotfix numbers in the system so fast that it's stupid to try to figure them out with the amount of work it requires from us. Also, numbers on different regions might start to differ significantly as they improve each region system to acomodate its reality, I at least expect our (LA) 56% of bronzes to have a lower number really soon
Also, I wouldn't be surprised of bronze offset in NA server were already different from the rest of the world since 2 weeks ago. That might have been their "fix" to the "bronze bug" situation, a pretty ok fix IMO.
As a proof, look at top bronzes: http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/bronze
They are all from NA server... coincidence? No way.
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United States12235 Posts
That's cool, great addition to the website. FYI SDream the offset for Grandmaster is still the same as the other regions. This may change in the future, but at least for right now, LA players will continue to get rotated in and out of GM.
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On May 07 2011 04:16 Excalibur_Z wrote:
FYI SDream the offset for Grandmaster is still the same as the other regions. This may change in the future, but at least for right now, LA players will continue to get rotated in and out of GM.
That is unbelievable Excalibur, the LA players on sc2ranks appeared suddendly and at the same time around this week.
Well, I can believe that the master <-> grandmaster difference is still X (430 more or less), but some other thing changed instead then. Right now 3 LA players are on top 5 world at sc2ranks. Something did happen. If not an offset moddification, a MMR modification, we do have some possibilities, but no moddification is inbelievable (also, it's a LA only moddification)
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United States12235 Posts
On May 07 2011 04:40 SDream wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:16 Excalibur_Z wrote:
FYI SDream the offset for Grandmaster is still the same as the other regions. This may change in the future, but at least for right now, LA players will continue to get rotated in and out of GM. That is unbelievable Excalibur, the LA players on sc2ranks appeared suddendly and at the same time around this week. Well, I can believe that the master <-> grandmaster difference is still X (430 more or less), but some other thing changed instead then. Right now 3 LA players are on top 5 world at sc2ranks. Something did happen. If not an offset moddification, a MMR modification, we do have some possibilities, but no moddification is inbelievable (also, it's a LA only moddification)
I dunno, I asked about it today and that was the response I got =) I even specifically asked in the context of LA!
"does this [I was referring to the league population adjustment hotfix] also fix the GM league downward point trends for the small servers? that is, people who are deservedly diamond-level happening to be #180 in the server then having their points drop down to 0 basically until the point where they get demoted out of GM because they can't spend bonus pool"
"No, because of the way regions are currently set up. Which could be fixed in the not too distant future."
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The NA Grandmaster division is a lot more fluid than I thought. It seems like 1-3 people drop off each day or so, which is quite a bit more than I would have expected when I heard about the whole thing. At the moment there are even 3 open spots.
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yup, saw i 3 days ago, finalyl yo ucan view all grandmaster leagues from all regions officially (except from sc2ranks.com )
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On May 07 2011 04:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:40 SDream wrote:On May 07 2011 04:16 Excalibur_Z wrote:
FYI SDream the offset for Grandmaster is still the same as the other regions. This may change in the future, but at least for right now, LA players will continue to get rotated in and out of GM. That is unbelievable Excalibur, the LA players on sc2ranks appeared suddendly and at the same time around this week. Well, I can believe that the master <-> grandmaster difference is still X (430 more or less), but some other thing changed instead then. Right now 3 LA players are on top 5 world at sc2ranks. Something did happen. If not an offset moddification, a MMR modification, we do have some possibilities, but no moddification is inbelievable (also, it's a LA only moddification) I dunno, I asked about it today and that was the response I got =) I even specifically asked in the context of LA! "does this [I was referring to the league population adjustment hotfix] also fix the GM league downward point trends for the small servers? that is, people who are deservedly diamond-level happening to be #180 in the server then having their points drop down to 0 basically until the point where they get demoted out of GM because they can't spend bonus pool" "No, because of the way regions are currently set up. Which could be fixed in the not too distant future."
I play as a GM on SEA and I've heard from a good source that our MMR was raised to artificially inflate our points. I don't know how much and the reach of the effect but it does line up nicely with the whole LA people dominating sc2ranks now.
P.S. I heard this before I saw what was happening on sc2ranks.
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On May 12 2011 05:53 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:On May 07 2011 04:40 SDream wrote:On May 07 2011 04:16 Excalibur_Z wrote:
FYI SDream the offset for Grandmaster is still the same as the other regions. This may change in the future, but at least for right now, LA players will continue to get rotated in and out of GM. That is unbelievable Excalibur, the LA players on sc2ranks appeared suddendly and at the same time around this week. Well, I can believe that the master <-> grandmaster difference is still X (430 more or less), but some other thing changed instead then. Right now 3 LA players are on top 5 world at sc2ranks. Something did happen. If not an offset moddification, a MMR modification, we do have some possibilities, but no moddification is inbelievable (also, it's a LA only moddification) I dunno, I asked about it today and that was the response I got =) I even specifically asked in the context of LA! "does this [I was referring to the league population adjustment hotfix] also fix the GM league downward point trends for the small servers? that is, people who are deservedly diamond-level happening to be #180 in the server then having their points drop down to 0 basically until the point where they get demoted out of GM because they can't spend bonus pool" "No, because of the way regions are currently set up. Which could be fixed in the not too distant future." I play as a GM on SEA and I've heard from a good source that our MMR was raised to artificially inflate our points. I don't know how much and the reach of the effect but it does line up nicely with the whole LA people dominating sc2ranks now. P.S. I heard this before I saw what was happening on sc2ranks.
They aren't artificially raising MMR, just your LADDER points. It's a lot easier to modify ladder points like that over MMR. They already do it with division tiers.
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On May 12 2011 05:58 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 05:53 youngminii wrote:On May 07 2011 04:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:On May 07 2011 04:40 SDream wrote:On May 07 2011 04:16 Excalibur_Z wrote:
FYI SDream the offset for Grandmaster is still the same as the other regions. This may change in the future, but at least for right now, LA players will continue to get rotated in and out of GM. That is unbelievable Excalibur, the LA players on sc2ranks appeared suddendly and at the same time around this week. Well, I can believe that the master <-> grandmaster difference is still X (430 more or less), but some other thing changed instead then. Right now 3 LA players are on top 5 world at sc2ranks. Something did happen. If not an offset moddification, a MMR modification, we do have some possibilities, but no moddification is inbelievable (also, it's a LA only moddification) I dunno, I asked about it today and that was the response I got =) I even specifically asked in the context of LA! "does this [I was referring to the league population adjustment hotfix] also fix the GM league downward point trends for the small servers? that is, people who are deservedly diamond-level happening to be #180 in the server then having their points drop down to 0 basically until the point where they get demoted out of GM because they can't spend bonus pool" "No, because of the way regions are currently set up. Which could be fixed in the not too distant future." I play as a GM on SEA and I've heard from a good source that our MMR was raised to artificially inflate our points. I don't know how much and the reach of the effect but it does line up nicely with the whole LA people dominating sc2ranks now. P.S. I heard this before I saw what was happening on sc2ranks. They aren't artificially raising MMR, just your LADDER points. It's a lot easier to modify ladder points like that over MMR. They already do it with division tiers.
How do you think they increase your ladder points? It's not like they just give everyone a flat 200 points.
What I'm saying is that everyone's MMR got raised. Since the favoured system works as "Opponent's MMR compared to your points", opponents with an MMR equal to yours will start showing up as favoured(or slightly favoured), hence you get more points. It's the easiest way for Blizzard to inflate the ladder and as we can see it's extremely effective.
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On May 12 2011 06:18 youngminii wrote:
How do you think they increase your ladder points? It's not like they just give everyone a flat 200 points.
What I'm saying is that everyone's MMR got raised.
They can't change people's MMRs without screwing up the matching system. However, they can change the division offset, which is used to specify the mapping between a ladder point score and MMR.
The "favored" behavior you're describing occurs because that offset has been changed so that a higher point score corresponds to the same MMR. For a period after such a change, people will start seeing their equally-matched opponents as "favored" until their ladder points increase to the new equilibrium value. Once their scores get high enough to match their MMRs, they'll see those players as "evenly matched." However, MMR hasn't changed.
This isn't quite "just giving everyone 200 points" but it's pretty close.
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On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week?
Or if u just suck terribly and dont win any games and therefore use the points that have been saved up ^_^
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On April 12 2011 09:00 brotosterone wrote:
So if you don't get in on the first two weeks, and all players stay active, you can't get into GM even if you become #1 in NA in the third week?
While technically that's correct, the reality of the situation is that currently there are 7 open spots for GM in the NA ladder at the moment.
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On April 17 2011 21:18 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:40 Rizell wrote:
I really dont understand or like the GM system. For example, how can some great players not make it, while MaryLand is number 11 on EU GM right now with almost 300 games played these past 2 weeks... last season he was a 2800 diamond player... somehow he inflated his MMR high enough to enter GM during these 2 weeks.
Interesting character to follow regarding MMR is Maryland in EU server: http://sc2ranks.com/team/7395738#alltimeHe was a diamond player (was in diamond also the first two weeks during season 2), but suddenly in few days he was first promoted to masters and then to grand masters after having massive win streak. After this he has won only 7 in his last 45 1v1 matches. Due to this lose streak he has dropped to 0 points in EU grand masters league. One could suspect that somebody else than him played his character to grand masters. Hopefully this kind of (possible) abuse does not happen much in future ladder seasons, but I am afraid it may become more common, as people cannot be demoted from gm league if they are active. Regarding Maryland it will be interesting to follow up how his opponent levels progress, if his performance still continues to decrease in the future.
Well, after two months or so, I think I might have a clue as to what's happened with Maryland.
See just a few minutes ago, there I was on bnet, when I decided to wander into the teamliquid chat channel, just out of casual interest as to what goes on in there. And I wandered right into the middle of a conversation between two retards talking about maphacking, one of whom was, yes, this Maryland character (There's only one Maryland on EU, and that guy has been to Grandmasters among other places, so I'm pretty sure it's the same guy). And, because these guys are morons, I did feel obliged to point out that it was against the TOS, and that yes, maphacking does change the game (seriously, Maryland said it didn't!) and you can get banned for it. Somewhere along the way, Maryland let slip that he's been using maphacks since August 2010. Also from the context, he didn't have one installed right now either so it seems he's installed and uninstalled them on at least one occasion.
Naturally I screenshot this for evidence purposes, and then checkout google and teamliquid to see if he'd appeared in the Hacker database or whatever, but apparently nobody's spotted it until now; however he showed up in this thread (hence the rather old bumpage). So my answer is that it's probably not smurfing, as you suggest, but self-confessed hacking. Maryland's anomalous results weren't a flaw in GM league, but just a problem with online gaming in general. Hope this clears things up.
Screenshots of the dismal bnet chat channel conversation follow:
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2
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One more prerequisite that is only important for small regions like LA and RU, it's impossible to get promoted to GM before being promoted to master.
SC2ranks does shows some guys in these regions being promoted as diamond, sometimes even as platinum or even gold I saw there. But I actually asked them and they were first promoted to master and then, after another game, they got the GM promotion.
That explain why LA, RU and maybe other regions don't have 200 players in the GM league, they don't have 200 "active" master players and it's impossible to diamond or lower players to get the spot.
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When will grandmaster open for this new season? And are the requirements still the same?
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On August 08 2011 06:56 Kira__ wrote:
When will grandmaster open for this new season? And are the requirements still the same?
Tuesday the 9th for Americas client should be the day for GM release. It is 2 weeks from that day from the start of the season.
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Can somebody explain the "moving average" part of MMR. I don't quite get that :o
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United States13896 Posts
On August 08 2011 07:07 EmilA wrote:
Can somebody explain the "moving average" part of MMR. I don't quite get that :o
*its been a while since I've read this thread and the Comprehensive Ladder thread, but I have read them so I may be a little off. This is a total layman's perspective and I'm not well-versed in statistics at all.
If you picture your MMR on a graph, it is constantly jumping up and down, and it is really difficult to say if you are exactly as good as your MMR at that exact time will dictate. You may just be on a hot streak and just as quick as you got your MMR to a certain point it can drop back down.
So to get a grasp of where you stand at that moment you take a subset of data surrounding that point in time and average it out. By taking a bigger subset of data than just that one point you can say with more confidence that your MMR is closer to that moving average. If that doesn't click with you this image Excalibur has in the other thread may help more:
+ Show Spoiler [Moving Average] +
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So a person who has recently risen in MMR should play more games, so his moving MMR converges with his current MMR?
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United States12235 Posts
On August 08 2011 07:58 EmilA wrote:
So a person who has recently risen in MMR should play more games, so his moving MMR converges with his current MMR?
That's correct.
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Damn you to hell, I gotta play more games tomorrow then. BUT I DON'T WANT TO!!
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So it is going to come out today or later?
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United States12235 Posts
On August 08 2011 22:30 JediGamer wrote:
So it is going to come out today or later?
Tuesday for the AM server. Season 3 started on Tuesday remember?
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Nope, I didn't remember I got back 3 days later on Thursday, thank you though!
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Grandmaster is out on SEA!!
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On April 12 2011 09:00 MacroKing wrote:
Good to know ^^ But, why would they keep everyone who is in GM in GM the whole season, even if they are not top 200.. kinda stupid..
if you think about it. lets say some one dosent belong in the top 200. he wont be able to win games. if he cant win games. he wont spend his bonus pool. if he cant spend his bonus pool. he gets kicked out.
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On August 09 2011 04:36 TylerDurden275 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 MacroKing wrote:
Good to know ^^ But, why would they keep everyone who is in GM in GM the whole season, even if they are not top 200.. kinda stupid.. if you think about it. lets say some one dosent belong in the top 200. he wont be able to win games. if he cant win games. he wont spend his bonus pool. if he cant spend his bonus pool. he gets kicked out.
lol I'm sure they are able to all-in a few people at that level to keep their bonuspool low :p
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On August 09 2011 04:36 TylerDurden275 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:00 MacroKing wrote:
Good to know ^^ But, why would they keep everyone who is in GM in GM the whole season, even if they are not top 200.. kinda stupid.. if you think about it. lets say some one dosent belong in the top 200. he wont be able to win games. if he cant win games. he wont spend his bonus pool. if he cant spend his bonus pool. he gets kicked out.
Actually this is flawed, he could lose 50 games in a row, start being matched against diamonds or w/e and still remain @ #200 grandmaster.
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United States12235 Posts
On August 09 2011 04:41 VanGooL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 04:36 TylerDurden275 wrote:On April 12 2011 09:00 MacroKing wrote:
Good to know ^^ But, why would they keep everyone who is in GM in GM the whole season, even if they are not top 200.. kinda stupid.. if you think about it. lets say some one dosent belong in the top 200. he wont be able to win games. if he cant win games. he wont spend his bonus pool. if he cant spend his bonus pool. he gets kicked out. Actually this is flawed, he could lose 50 games in a row, start being matched against diamonds or w/e and still remain @ #200 grandmaster.
If you're facing Diamond opponents and you're in Grandmaster, you're earning little if any points and it would make it difficult if not impossible to spend more bonus pool than you take in.
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when exactly is GM coming out tommorow anyone?
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On August 09 2011 08:00 desrow wrote:
when exactly is GM coming out tommorow anyone?
Once the client/server restarts and patches it should be released since two weeks ago after the server reset and patched it was a new season.
Should be around 1-2pm EST / 10-11am PST (rough estimate on the down time.)
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Hoping its somehow down till 4-6 EST that way I don't miss out sense I work till 7 est .
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Sorry to bump but the OP needs an update as it is now a 1week qualification.
Just needed to know some info about GM league so I was here.
<3
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United States12235 Posts
On October 27 2011 22:01 Slyce wrote:
Sorry to bump but the OP needs an update as it is now a 1week qualification.
Just needed to know some info about GM league so I was here.
<3
I made the update to the Ladder Guide sticky thread, but I suppose I can make it here too.
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Can someone confirm if the 180 bonus pool still stands this season? I don't want to get dropped. PM me if you can!
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On November 14 2011 10:26 JediGamer wrote:
Can someone confirm if the 180 bonus pool still stands this season? I don't want to get dropped. PM me if you can!
Yup 180bp = dropped from GM
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I would like to know, is there any way to prevent the pro from having 3-4 account, because that make the GM league a bit useless if the best player have more than 1 account in the league, with only 200 spots.
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On February 11 2012 04:44 eXeJJu wrote:
I would like to know, is there any way to prevent the pro from having 3-4 account, because that make the GM league a bit useless if the best player have more than 1 account in the league, with only 200 spots.
lol y post this? if a pro player can get 4 accounts into GM and u cant get 1 into GM then you dont deserve to be in GM. Its as simple as that
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On February 11 2012 04:44 eXeJJu wrote:
I would like to know, is there any way to prevent the pro from having 3-4 account, because that make the GM league a bit useless if the best player have more than 1 account in the league, with only 200 spots.
The top 50 in the KR GM league are the same 9-10 players >.<
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On February 11 2012 04:48 BloodThirsty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:44 eXeJJu wrote:
I would like to know, is there any way to prevent the pro from having 3-4 account, because that make the GM league a bit useless if the best player have more than 1 account in the league, with only 200 spots. lol y post this? if a pro player can get 4 accounts into GM and u cant get 1 into GM then you dont deserve to be in GM. Its as simple as that
But GM is supposed to be the top200 PLAYERS, not the top200 accounts. Surely it makes more sense competitively if each player is limited to one account in GM? I don't think it's policeable in anyway tbh.
Also, as for the not deserving aspect - if there was one player in sc2 who was far better than all the rest (imagine Flash, but SC2), and had so much time on his hands that he bought 200 accounts, and played them all constantly. Would you find it fair that he could have all 200 GM spots just because every other player "cant get 1 into GM"? Your logic is flawed.
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if he was able to ladder 200 accounts to GM then he deserves 200 spots in my opinion.
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On February 11 2012 07:56 CluEleSs_UK wrote:
Also, as for the not deserving aspect - if there was one player in sc2 who was far better than all the rest (imagine Flash, but SC2), and had so much time on his hands that he bought 200 accounts, and played them all constantly. Would you find it fair that he could have all 200 GM spots just because every other player "cant get 1 into GM"? Your logic is flawed.
I would, yes.
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On February 11 2012 08:11 Ballack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:56 CluEleSs_UK wrote:
Also, as for the not deserving aspect - if there was one player in sc2 who was far better than all the rest (imagine Flash, but SC2), and had so much time on his hands that he bought 200 accounts, and played them all constantly. Would you find it fair that he could have all 200 GM spots just because every other player "cant get 1 into GM"? Your logic is flawed. I would, yes.
GM, regardless of how it currently is, was always intended as an easily accessible list of the current best players, not just a high score list from an arcade machine. People having more than one account in GM completely voids that.
That being said, not much Blizzard can do about it, I suppose.
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On February 11 2012 07:56 CluEleSs_UK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:48 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 11 2012 04:44 eXeJJu wrote:
I would like to know, is there any way to prevent the pro from having 3-4 account, because that make the GM league a bit useless if the best player have more than 1 account in the league, with only 200 spots. lol y post this? if a pro player can get 4 accounts into GM and u cant get 1 into GM then you dont deserve to be in GM. Its as simple as that But GM is supposed to be the top200 PLAYERS, not the top200 accounts. Surely it makes more sense competitively if each player is limited to one account in GM? I don't think it's policeable in anyway tbh. Also, as for the not deserving aspect - if there was one player in sc2 who was far better than all the rest (imagine Flash, but SC2), and had so much time on his hands that he bought 200 accounts, and played them all constantly. Would you find it fair that he could have all 200 GM spots just because every other player "cant get 1 into GM"? Your logic is flawed.
If you care about GM league that much, then you're really not competitive in my opinion. It's all about who you play anyways, GM is just an icon.
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On February 11 2012 08:21 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:56 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On February 11 2012 04:48 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 11 2012 04:44 eXeJJu wrote:
I would like to know, is there any way to prevent the pro from having 3-4 account, because that make the GM league a bit useless if the best player have more than 1 account in the league, with only 200 spots. lol y post this? if a pro player can get 4 accounts into GM and u cant get 1 into GM then you dont deserve to be in GM. Its as simple as that But GM is supposed to be the top200 PLAYERS, not the top200 accounts. Surely it makes more sense competitively if each player is limited to one account in GM? I don't think it's policeable in anyway tbh. Also, as for the not deserving aspect - if there was one player in sc2 who was far better than all the rest (imagine Flash, but SC2), and had so much time on his hands that he bought 200 accounts, and played them all constantly. Would you find it fair that he could have all 200 GM spots just because every other player "cant get 1 into GM"? Your logic is flawed. If you care about GM league that much, then you're really not competitive in my opinion. It's all about who you play anyways, GM is just an icon.
Frankly, I'm not overly fussed about GM (BECAUSE it's just a shiny badge), but equally I like to know who the best 200players in the world/my region are.
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On February 11 2012 10:25 CluEleSs_UK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:21 K3Nyy wrote:On February 11 2012 07:56 CluEleSs_UK wrote:On February 11 2012 04:48 BloodThirsty wrote:On February 11 2012 04:44 eXeJJu wrote:
I would like to know, is there any way to prevent the pro from having 3-4 account, because that make the GM league a bit useless if the best player have more than 1 account in the league, with only 200 spots. lol y post this? if a pro player can get 4 accounts into GM and u cant get 1 into GM then you dont deserve to be in GM. Its as simple as that But GM is supposed to be the top200 PLAYERS, not the top200 accounts. Surely it makes more sense competitively if each player is limited to one account in GM? I don't think it's policeable in anyway tbh. Also, as for the not deserving aspect - if there was one player in sc2 who was far better than all the rest (imagine Flash, but SC2), and had so much time on his hands that he bought 200 accounts, and played them all constantly. Would you find it fair that he could have all 200 GM spots just because every other player "cant get 1 into GM"? Your logic is flawed. If you care about GM league that much, then you're really not competitive in my opinion. It's all about who you play anyways, GM is just an icon. Frankly, I'm not overly fussed about GM (BECAUSE it's just a shiny badge), but equally I like to know who the best 200players in the world/my region are.
gm will never show the best players because its based on the ladder.
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your Country52797 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:48 BloodThirsty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:44 eXeJJu wrote:
I would like to know, is there any way to prevent the pro from having 3-4 account, because that make the GM league a bit useless if the best player have more than 1 account in the league, with only 200 spots. lol y post this? if a pro player can get 4 accounts into GM and u cant get 1 into GM then you dont deserve to be in GM. Its as simple as that
Well, it's supposed to be top 200. If pros can get 4 accounts it is instead the top 50 or top 100, which isn't what Blizzard was intending.
I don't think there is a way unfortunately.
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Let's face it, Pro players are always leaving the ladder for periods of time to go play in tournaments. As long as it's the system of "you can only go down if you don't play enough" then GM will be flawed =/
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I also agree on that a single player shouldn't have more than one character in grandmaster league at a time.
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GM comes out on SEA today and NA/EU tomorrow?
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On February 20 2012 17:39 Let it Raine wrote:
GM comes out on SEA today and NA/EU tomorrow?
in 2 days on eu.
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Does anyone know at what time exactly GM is gonna go live on EU?
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what time does GM come out on NA ?
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usually it's 1 week after the new season began
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On January 08 2013 22:39 aintthatfunny wrote:
usually it's 1 week after the new season began
but what "time" every pro knows its one week later lol...and even says the date in the game client... though as in actual unlock time, Its literally random every single time, sometimes theirs maintenance and its up when it comes back, sometimes there isnt maintenance and its 8 am est, and last time if I remember right it was 3 am EST. =/
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