On April 08 2011 07:25 StallingHard wrote: Is this some sort of ban trap for the mods to see who actually watches the replays? It's pretty clear protoss is going to win. Terran has 11 maras, 8 medivacs, 3 vikings as his effective fighting force vs protoss with 5 zeals, 2 collosi, 16 stalkers. Zeals will tank mara shots while stalkers and collosi proceed to roll your army. Medivacs can't heal things that are being 1-shot. And about that post-game graph, you have so much of your army value tied up in those medivacs, a full 800/800 and they're going to be nigh on useless.
Your armor is what really matters here, because your attack upgrades won't matter a big deal vs the zealot shield wall up front. And taking 3 damage from stalkers and collosi won't be that big a deal (it will be a big deal vs the zealots but they're not going to be doing the damage)
Don't come in here asking for opinions from people and then immediately refute what they say with oh but upgrades. Your upgrades meant nothing against that army comp. If it was an all stalker army I'd say you have a good chance. Unfortunately, b/c of the zealot wall, your lack of marines and vikings, and overabundance of army value in medivacs, you will 100% lose this. Were this a TSL match the refs would 100% give the win to the protoss player.
This is exactly what I'm talking about though, the zealots are nowhere near my base and zealots are not exactly fast units.
Everyone keeps saying "oh if the zealots tank the damage while the nicely grouped and formed stalker/colossus army rolls in behind them, your army is gonna get raped." While this is a true statement, in order for it to occur would have taken time, time with which I could have reinforced pretty quickly.
I'm only trying to argue that this was not a clear victory for the protoss, that's all, and I'm glad you're not a TSL match ref.
Even if he didn't have the zealots or colossus, it would have been a clear victory. That's really how much you are overestimating marauders :/
On April 08 2011 07:25 StallingHard wrote: Is this some sort of ban trap for the mods to see who actually watches the replays? It's pretty clear protoss is going to win. Terran has 11 maras, 8 medivacs, 3 vikings as his effective fighting force vs protoss with 5 zeals, 2 collosi, 16 stalkers. Zeals will tank mara shots while stalkers and collosi proceed to roll your army. Medivacs can't heal things that are being 1-shot. And about that post-game graph, you have so much of your army value tied up in those medivacs, a full 800/800 and they're going to be nigh on useless.
Your armor is what really matters here, because your attack upgrades won't matter a big deal vs the zealot shield wall up front. And taking 3 damage from stalkers and collosi won't be that big a deal (it will be a big deal vs the zealots but they're not going to be doing the damage)
Don't come in here asking for opinions from people and then immediately refute what they say with oh but upgrades. Your upgrades meant nothing against that army comp. If it was an all stalker army I'd say you have a good chance. Unfortunately, b/c of the zealot wall, your lack of marines and vikings, and overabundance of army value in medivacs, you will 100% lose this. Were this a TSL match the refs would 100% give the win to the protoss player.
This is exactly what I'm talking about though, the zealots are nowhere near my base and zealots are not exactly fast units.
Everyone keeps saying "oh if the zealots tank the damage while the nicely grouped and formed stalker/colossus army rolls in behind them, your army is gonna get raped." While this is a true statement, in order for it to occur would have taken time, time with which I could have reinforced pretty quickly.
I'm only trying to argue that this was not a clear victory for the protoss, that's all, and I'm glad you're not a TSL match ref.
Even if he didn't have the zealots or colossus, it would have been a clear victory. That's really how much you are overestimating marauders :/
No it wouldn't have, lol. The scv-marauder mix would have done really well if not for the zealots and colossi.
I mean, the zealots are going to have trouble getting through the scvs -- assuming he pulls them.
1) Why would you even post this, who really cares who would of won? If it's so important for you to know who is better, challenge him to a custom game and duke it out, rather than trying to make him look like an idiot, which obviously failed, towards the liquid community. 2) You ask for feedback, yet when you get feedback you seem to feel.. attacked. When you ask for someones opinion, and they give their opinion, you are not in your right to turn around and say 'your opinion is false, for I had upgrades!'. 3) Quit the trolling, and that goes to spbelky more than anyone.
I think he was going to realize he was going dry on his natural without any other bases, warp in 5 sentries and then converge on your natural and win. He's in a commanding lead, I can't see how he would have lost the game.
On April 08 2011 07:25 StallingHard wrote: Is this some sort of ban trap for the mods to see who actually watches the replays? It's pretty clear protoss is going to win. Terran has 11 maras, 8 medivacs, 3 vikings as his effective fighting force vs protoss with 5 zeals, 2 collosi, 16 stalkers. Zeals will tank mara shots while stalkers and collosi proceed to roll your army. Medivacs can't heal things that are being 1-shot. And about that post-game graph, you have so much of your army value tied up in those medivacs, a full 800/800 and they're going to be nigh on useless.
Your armor is what really matters here, because your attack upgrades won't matter a big deal vs the zealot shield wall up front. And taking 3 damage from stalkers and collosi won't be that big a deal (it will be a big deal vs the zealots but they're not going to be doing the damage)
Don't come in here asking for opinions from people and then immediately refute what they say with oh but upgrades. Your upgrades meant nothing against that army comp. If it was an all stalker army I'd say you have a good chance. Unfortunately, b/c of the zealot wall, your lack of marines and vikings, and overabundance of army value in medivacs, you will 100% lose this. Were this a TSL match the refs would 100% give the win to the protoss player.
This is exactly what I'm talking about though, the zealots are nowhere near my base and zealots are not exactly fast units.
Everyone keeps saying "oh if the zealots tank the damage while the nicely grouped and formed stalker/colossus army rolls in behind them, your army is gonna get raped." While this is a true statement, in order for it to occur would have taken time, time with which I could have reinforced pretty quickly.
I'm only trying to argue that this was not a clear victory for the protoss, that's all, and I'm glad you're not a TSL match ref.
I agree with you, only because in the entire game he never had his zealots in front. The fact is he should probably have won in at least two different spots, at the very beginning when he had 2 stalkers and a zealot outside your base and just sat there, and his first real attack. He lost both of those battles because of poor micro, or lack any attack for the first. It seems possible that the same would happen in this final battle as well and that you did have a decent chance of winning, had you pulled all of your SCVs.
My favourite part was the protoss's 84 harvesters on two bases. Seriously, he was so awful that anything could have happened. I'm not sure anyone can foresee how this game would have ended.
11 marauders with 8 medivacs, 3 rines, and 3 vikings...ish....right? Against 16 stalkers, 2 colossi, and a handful of zealots+maybe sentries if he warps them in. Terran in the lead in upgrades. If Toss does it right I think it'd break you on the next attack, but it didn't look to me like he was organized at all when the lag hit. If toss loses that attack Terran wins the game...
Voted too close to call, but I'd probably lean Protoss if I had to choose.
On April 08 2011 07:25 StallingHard wrote: Is this some sort of ban trap for the mods to see who actually watches the replays? It's pretty clear protoss is going to win. Terran has 11 maras, 8 medivacs, 3 vikings as his effective fighting force vs protoss with 5 zeals, 2 collosi, 16 stalkers. Zeals will tank mara shots while stalkers and collosi proceed to roll your army. Medivacs can't heal things that are being 1-shot. And about that post-game graph, you have so much of your army value tied up in those medivacs, a full 800/800 and they're going to be nigh on useless.
Your armor is what really matters here, because your attack upgrades won't matter a big deal vs the zealot shield wall up front. And taking 3 damage from stalkers and collosi won't be that big a deal (it will be a big deal vs the zealots but they're not going to be doing the damage)
Don't come in here asking for opinions from people and then immediately refute what they say with oh but upgrades. Your upgrades meant nothing against that army comp. If it was an all stalker army I'd say you have a good chance. Unfortunately, b/c of the zealot wall, your lack of marines and vikings, and overabundance of army value in medivacs, you will 100% lose this. Were this a TSL match the refs would 100% give the win to the protoss player.
This is exactly what I'm talking about though, the zealots are nowhere near my base and zealots are not exactly fast units.
Everyone keeps saying "oh if the zealots tank the damage while the nicely grouped and formed stalker/colossus army rolls in behind them, your army is gonna get raped." While this is a true statement, in order for it to occur would have taken time, time with which I could have reinforced pretty quickly.
I'm only trying to argue that this was not a clear victory for the protoss, that's all, and I'm glad you're not a TSL match ref.
I'm looking at the replay as we speak, do I need to go make a whole custom map just to prove my point? Again, what is the point of coming in and asking a question if you're just going to shoot down every differing opinion by saying the same thing over and over again.
You have ONE marauder on the way and ONE viking. Assuming it takes those zealots a mighty thirty seconds to reach the battle, that also means he's going to be getting a THIRD collosi joining the battle before he pushes.
So you're getting 1 marauder and 1 viking in the time it takes him to get 1 collosi. I'm still going with protoss 100% And TSL would be lucky to have me as a ref.
Edit: I'd also like to point out that the TSL refs assume the players aren't mentally handicapped, as you seem to be assuming the protoss player was. So my argument would hold up in a TSL decision as well.
On April 08 2011 07:37 Marksel wrote: 1) Why would you even post this, who really cares who would of won? If it's so important for you to know who is better, challenge him to a custom game and duke it out, rather than trying to make him look like an idiot, which obviously failed, towards the liquid community. 2) You ask for feedback, yet when you get feedback you seem to feel.. attacked. When you ask for someones opinion, and they give their opinion, you are not in your right to turn around and say 'your opinion is false, for I had upgrades!'. 3) Quit the trolling, and that goes to spbelky more than anyone.
1)I can't challenge him to another game, he PM'd me after the game basically saying grats on the free win you didn't deserve, and then put me on ignore. I'm not trying to make anyone look like an idiot. 2)I didn't make a single reply about upgrades other than the original post... what? 3)Facepalm
You keep saying his army is all spread out and zealots are nowhere near your base... it takes a few seconds to move across the map. In that time even IF those 2 maruaders you were building finished, his army still smashes yours.
On April 08 2011 07:25 StallingHard wrote: Is this some sort of ban trap for the mods to see who actually watches the replays? It's pretty clear protoss is going to win. Terran has 11 maras, 8 medivacs, 3 vikings as his effective fighting force vs protoss with 5 zeals, 2 collosi, 16 stalkers. Zeals will tank mara shots while stalkers and collosi proceed to roll your army. Medivacs can't heal things that are being 1-shot. And about that post-game graph, you have so much of your army value tied up in those medivacs, a full 800/800 and they're going to be nigh on useless.
Your armor is what really matters here, because your attack upgrades won't matter a big deal vs the zealot shield wall up front. And taking 3 damage from stalkers and collosi won't be that big a deal (it will be a big deal vs the zealots but they're not going to be doing the damage)
Don't come in here asking for opinions from people and then immediately refute what they say with oh but upgrades. Your upgrades meant nothing against that army comp. If it was an all stalker army I'd say you have a good chance. Unfortunately, b/c of the zealot wall, your lack of marines and vikings, and overabundance of army value in medivacs, you will 100% lose this. Were this a TSL match the refs would 100% give the win to the protoss player.
This is exactly what I'm talking about though, the zealots are nowhere near my base and zealots are not exactly fast units.
Everyone keeps saying "oh if the zealots tank the damage while the nicely grouped and formed stalker/colossus army rolls in behind them, your army is gonna get raped." While this is a true statement, in order for it to occur would have taken time, time with which I could have reinforced pretty quickly.
I'm only trying to argue that this was not a clear victory for the protoss, that's all, and I'm glad you're not a TSL match ref.
I'm looking at the replay as we speak, do I need to go make a whole custom map just to prove my point? Again, what is the point of coming in and asking a question if you're just going to shoot down every differing opinion by saying the same thing over and over again.
I'm only pointing out the flaws in their logic. If anyone wants to counter my responses feel free.
You have ONE marauder on the way and ONE viking. Assuming it takes those zealots a mighty thirty seconds to reach the battle, that also means he's going to be getting a THIRD collosi joining the battle before he pushes.
I was literally in the process of spamming my barracks structures for more units as the game ended, so the idea that I would only be reinforces with one marauder and one viking is pretty short sighted, similar to your overall perception it seems.
So you're getting 1 marauder and 1 viking in the time it takes him to get 1 collosi. I'm still going with protoss 100% And TSL would be lucky to have me as a ref.
Again, shortsighted, and I guess if TSL wants shortsighted refs you should be first on their list
Edit: I'd also like to point out that the TSL refs assume the players aren't mentally handicapped, as you seem to be assuming the protoss player was. So my argument would hold up in a TSL decision as well.
I never assume any sort of mental handicap, I only take the information as it is presented to me and react appropriately. If you watch the Protosses playstyle throughout the game, it's not like he was about to suddenly make really good decisions and micro me to death. This is a thread about what would have happened if he hadn't dropped, NOT what would happen if you were playing for the protoss, with all this knowledge AFTER THE FACT.
I'm sure he has had a few wins from people d/cing etc... I would just move one and forget about this match. Your putting to much mental energy into his BM
Dude...even if the stalkers and zealots did nothing but stand there and tank marauder shots and dont' even attack the dps of the two colossi are more than enough to rip through your 8 marauders. Additionally, 3 vikings aren't gonna do crap. The have no chance to take out even one of the colossi before they wipe your ground army. The game was pretty clearly won by Protoss. Not to mention that if he really wanted to he could've distance mined while containing you and still would've been able to win that way.
It wasn't close at all. The only way you would've won is if the moved his entire army into your base. If you're really skeptical then just make a custom game with those exact units and a-move them into one another. I can guarantee you that Protoss would win.
I can tell you that the protoss was not the best. You were pretty much ahead of him the whole time. When he went for the second push and failed, that is when you should have applied more pressure.
First off, your scv production was horrendous. Sorry to say, but if you look at the 14 minute mark, he was 25 probes ahead of you. From 10-14 you had no gas at all. And look at your energy count for your orbital commands. Seriously the MULE is the gamebreaker for terrans. At the 15 minute mark, you had 150 energy on both orbitals. That is 6 mules.... Since each mules "cost" 320 minerals I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but 320 x 6 = 1920 minerals. That makes a huge difference. In addition, you got supply
Also, why did you choose to build your bunker then cancel it? First, you should be placing it near the ramp. It was actually your fault there when you moved out to see what was going on which let the protoss see what you had. If you had not done that, and made a bunker near the ramp in the first place, you would have held it easily considering you can repair it, and he had no sentries.
You also overmade medivacs. For such a small army you had in the late game, you should have spent more of your income into making more units, not medivacs.
As well, use your scans if you're not going to use your mules. Seriously, if you scanned his base, you would have seen colossi. However, because you did not, you didn't see the robo facility. Therefore, you couldn't make any vikings. Colossi will destroy an MMM ball without vikings in it.
Around the 15 minute mark as well, you were oversaturated in your main. Oversaturation means scvs not doing anything. You should have transferred to your 3rd.
On April 08 2011 07:48 aike wrote: You keep saying his army is all spread out and zealots are nowhere near your base... it takes a few seconds to move across the map. In that time even IF those 2 maruaders you were building finished, his army still smashes yours.
As I said earlier, I was in the process of building more marauders and 3 mules were about to ram in to my OC, so I probably would have queued up a total of 5 marauders and another viking or two, and maybe 2 marines (which is perfect considering my 5techrax and 1reactorrax).
So let's take your inaccurate scenario and put some facts in to it. Marauders take 30 seconds to build. It takes a zealot more than 30 seconds to run from where he was to my base. He would have needed to take atleast a few seconds to group up properly, unless he wanted to stream in his zealots one at a time.
On April 08 2011 08:06 Axel.Bowex wrote: I can tell you that the protoss was not the best. You were pretty much ahead of him the whole time. When he went for the second push and failed, that is when you should have applied more pressure.
First off, your scv production was horrendous. Sorry to say, but if you look at the 14 minute mark, he was 25 probes ahead of you. From 10-14 you had no gas at all. And look at your energy count for your orbital commands. Seriously the MULE is the gamebreaker for terrans. At the 15 minute mark, you had 150 energy on both orbitals. That is 6 mules.... Since each mules "cost" 320 minerals I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but 320 x 6 = 1920 minerals. That makes a huge difference. In addition, you got supply
Also, why did you choose to build your bunker then cancel it? First, you should be placing it near the ramp. It was actually your fault there when you moved out to see what was going on which let the protoss see what you had. If you had not done that, and made a bunker near the ramp in the first place, you would have held it easily considering you can repair it, and he had no sentries.
You also overmade medivacs. For such a small army you had in the late game, you should have spent more of your income into making more units, not medivacs.
As well, use your scans if you're not going to use your mules. Seriously, if you scanned his base, you would have seen colossi. However, because you did not, you didn't see the robo facility. Therefore, you couldn't make any vikings. Colossi will destroy an MMM ball without vikings in it.
Around the 15 minute mark as well, you were oversaturated in your main. Oversaturation means scvs not doing anything. You should have transferred to your 3rd.
I think Protoss was ahead. He needed to push soon though. If he had pulled his whole army back to defend the drop, for example, Terra would have been in a much better position. One cannot say who would have won (unless it is like 5 base vs 1 base), only, who had the advantage. If Toss attacks with his whole army, he likely wins. If Terra can somehow delay the push for a couple of minutes, or kite perfectly, terra would be favored.
You seem pretty adamant about the game, so I went back and took another look. It doesn't look like the terran is going to have much time. The protoss player selected all his units and is rallying them to the northeastern ramp of the lower gold. Terran has 2 Marauders and 1 Viking just started, and had money for 2 marines or 1 marauder. With 4 marauders across the map in a medivac, I don't see how terran holds the attack that was coming in the next 20-30 seconds, including the supplemental 3 marauders+1 viking. As long as the protoss gets his units into a ball, as he was doing, he wins.
edit: This assumes the protoss cleans up your drop with his popping 3rd colo and a zealot or stalker warped in.
It wasn't close at all. The only way you would've won is if the moved his entire army into your base. If you're really skeptical then just make a custom game with those exact units and a-move them into one another. I can guarantee you that Protoss would win.
Yes, if I make a custom game and throw 7 marauders and 7 medivacs vs 16 stalkers 5 zealots and 2 colossus, I'm not a fucking idiot, I know which army is going to win.
However, people like you that fail to acknowledge that moving your units around the map takes TIME.
On April 08 2011 08:12 pwncakery wrote: You seem pretty adamant about the game, so I went back and took another look. It doesn't look like the terran is going to have much time. The protoss player selected all his units and is rallying them to the northeastern ramp of the lower gold. Terran has 2 Marauders and 1 Viking just started, and had money for 2 marines or 1 marauder. With 4 marauders across the map in a medivac, I don't see how terran holds the attack that was coming in the next 20-30 seconds, including the supplemental 3 marauders+1 viking. As long as the protoss gets his units into a ball, as he was doing, he wins.
Getting his army in to a ball would have taken well over 30 seconds, by which time I would have had 5+marauders finished.
EPT
