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On April 07 2011 00:52 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:48 [F_]aths wrote:
Icx, a diamond player who neither gots promoted nor demoted will have a win ratio close to 50% anyways. To show the losses (or the number of games played) is pointless. The AMM is engineered to match you against equal skill so you have to come out near 50% win ratio. Only very, very good or very, very bad players can be far from 50%.
If you want to put your skill to a test, you could play a Go4SC2, Zotac or any other open cup. if this system is so perfect whats wrong with showing someone a 50/50 win ratio. thats not discouraging..
The issue is when people start loarding their 63% win ratio over people and using it to claim superiority over someone with a 50% win ratio, when the reality is the first player probably just got to play opponents that were weaker than him a lot more. It's all very well looking at your 50% win/loss and thinking "That's how it's supposed to be" but as people continue to value their win ratio, so it becomes discouraging to see that yours is lower than theirs.
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I don't even know why you bothering with this, I mean, do you consider yourself affected by this change, this is well written but I think it was just useless to write it down, I mean you are probably master and this change doesn't affect, I diamond very happy with it, since your cannot make another account like in warcraft3 or sc bw, I am glad I don't see I am 44% ou 56%, this is can be demoralizing for players, I think this is a very good change, but I do think there could off by default and make an option to display them
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well written, but in my opinion too optimistic and unrealistic.
you looked at the best case, without any valid arguments.
though I like the W/L Ratio change blizzard made, I'm not convinced of your post
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On April 07 2011 00:39 Icx wrote:
Okay what about the other person, let's call him Icx.
Icx is far from a talented rts player, and he will never be in the top of something, but he still wants to get good at the game as possible.
Icx is also very competitive, and likes the competitive aspect of starcraft2
Icx is in diamond, not the best out there, but not a bronze league newbie anymore.
Icx wants to know how much he has improved, how far he is progressing, and w/l ratio is part of that, why does he have to have the same rules enforced on to him by bob the bronze leaguer?
My point is, yes everything in your post is correct, but imo blizzard went to far with enforcing it onto a to large group of players.
I can understand it for bronze/Silver/gold, but everyone I know in plat/diamond is actually playing to get better, and isn't seeing this is just a pure "I wanna be a battlecruiser commander".
Why not have a system where they are disabled by default and you can actually turn them on if you so wish?
Or enforce them only on the casual players, for example bronze/silver (and if you look at sc2 ranks, like 40% of the community is in bronze, and my guess is that is actually that large more casual crowd that doesn't want to see their w/l ratio or care about it)
Sorry Icx, but w/l ratio doesn't actually tell whether or not you've improved. If you have, your MMR will go up and the people you play against will be harder. Master players have about the same 55-45 ratio everyone has.
Everyone! If you give them the option to turn it on or off it defeats the whole purpose. Why? Having it off basically means you suck and are ashamed of it. "Lol nub trying to hide his losses"
Also Icx, in SC2 it's hard to tell if you have improved. Day9 Daily 100 brings up some examples. You just simply play and practice and you'll get better. Eventually practice partners or just play styles you have met in the past will feel slower and simpler to beat.
Lastly, if you TRULY want to get better. Stop worrying about W/L ratios or meaningless statistics. Just play practice and eventually you'll get better. It's like apm. Those who worry about being faster are generally worse than those who simply get better and in turn faster.
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I'm a silver player that plays very casually (5-10 games/wk) and i don't mind at all the fact loss counts are not show for me. Prior to the patch i was always concerned with getting the W, but now i don't mind throwing a game here and there for the sake of experimenting. It makes the game more fun for me. Totally agree with the OP.
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On April 07 2011 01:32 NikonTC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:52 mustache wrote:On April 07 2011 00:48 [F_]aths wrote:
Icx, a diamond player who neither gots promoted nor demoted will have a win ratio close to 50% anyways. To show the losses (or the number of games played) is pointless. The AMM is engineered to match you against equal skill so you have to come out near 50% win ratio. Only very, very good or very, very bad players can be far from 50%.
If you want to put your skill to a test, you could play a Go4SC2, Zotac or any other open cup. if this system is so perfect whats wrong with showing someone a 50/50 win ratio. thats not discouraging.. The issue is when people start loarding their 63% win ratio over people and using it to claim superiority over someone with a 50% win ratio, when the reality is the first player probably just got to play opponents that were weaker than him a lot more. It's all very well looking at your 50% win/loss and thinking "That's how it's supposed to be" but as people continue to value their win ratio, so it becomes discouraging to see that yours is lower than theirs.
and its not discouraging to see someone with half as many wins but double the points? or simply with double as many wins?
If they don't want a W/L ration then they shouldnt make a damn ladder. With the point system you can still see roughly how much better someone is than you. this is a half assed attempt to change something, but it fails miserably because your W/L is still hidden in your wins/points ratio.
so to conclude it changes nothing, just annoys people that want to knwo their exact score
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As a Platinum player, I definitely agree with the people saying that w/l should be shown platinum and higher because we do care about improving and knowing how we are doing. So far I have been able to keep track of everything with a notepad but I will slip up at some point, and it seems ridiculous that I should have to in the first place. Originally I was for the idea, but then I realized I couldn't set goals for myself anymore. I used to try to have a certain number of wins over losses, it started with 10, then 20, and so on. This gave me motivation as the only way I could achieve that was to improve. So far, it still is working this season (my goal is 10 more wins than losses, which I am at 7 of) but I would rather not have to keep track of it myself. To be honest, if I lost track of my record I wouldn't really care, as I now look at who I win against instead of how often I win. Hopefully I will be promoted soon, as I have been playing a lot of diamonds the last few days.
I do understand how hiding losses can help. I was once a Bronze level player with a record of 9-22. Back then I was afraid of losing even more because it would look bad to my friends (who I'm now better than). Even when I evened up my record I was still scared of wrecking it and getting below 50% instead of just playing the game and having fun.
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Well said; I totally agree. Arguing that ladder losses not appearing in one's profile undermines the competitive integrity of Starcraft is like saying the fact that the outcome of pickup basketball games isn't permanently recorded undermines the integrity of the NBA.
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I feel Blizzard should not calculate losses for gold and below, and do so with diamond and up.
Only counting losses for Masters is a bit too much.
Also, when trying to view the previous season ranks in profiles, it seems to be bugged. It shows the current standings/points/ranks, and not the previous seasons like it should.
I hope this gets fixed soon. ^^;
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So "Bob" played and lost till his MMR reached the 50% mark.
How many games do you seriously think that took? Even when he's a REALLY bad player, that shouldnt be more than around...20 or so (and 20 is a real high number)
Dont you think it would be more fun for Bob to play, get better and reach the 50% mark by himself?
Besides, think about "long term motivation" reaching top of your divison is not THAT much of a deal (at least not in bronze/silver/gold) It's more about playing a lot than winning all the games.
So bob reached top of his division - and is still far away from getting promoted to silver.
what motivation does he get from just seeing the wins?
I really feel blizzard behaves like a soccer mom, telling her little boy that "he's great no matter what the others say"
in the end of the day, i think blizz screwd themselves over with this logic. Do you really think "Bob"
who's only playing on easy and wants easy wins is gonna keep with sc2? Or isnt it much more likely that bob will jump on the next bandwagon as soon as he hears about the good graphics of another game?
From a business perspective i do understand Blizz - if their short time goal is " to sell copies and keep the real casual gamer in touch till the first expansion comes out.
The guys who play sc2 to get better will stick the game anyways right?
But i think they shot themselves in the foot - cause the medicore players who WANT to play but want to see how they get better as well will lose an incentive to play.
If i play 10 games and lost 7 - im more likely to play "just 2 more" to even the score.
And lastly:
It's psychological proven you remember losses more than wins:
That means if you lose 5 games in a row but you won 5 in a row before you will remember the losses much more and actually feel worse.
so if you're on a losing streak and you cant compare your actual win loss ratio to "even" it out, your slump will probably worsen. - and this is independant of your league.
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On April 07 2011 01:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I think ironically one of the big problems with the ladder is the league system because that's all anyone ever focuses on, and it affects even people who are familiar with the system. In fact, just yesterday Vanick was grumbling about how he hates losing because it's preventing him from moving up into Diamond, but that focus on getting promoted is like the only thing that matters to people, which is a flaw in my opinion.
This.
I know too many people that get promoted to a league that they think correctly showcases the level of skill they possess and then they will rarely ladder again until the next season rolls in so they can re-establish themselves in the same league.
On the matter of Losses showing.
Heres my scenario:
I was Diamond 1v1 before Season 2 and I am really afraid of the ladder, I come from an FPS background where your kill to death ratio plays a big role and so when I started SC2 my WLR became the new thing. But in FPS games you join a server with a mix of all skill levels so a good KD ratio is relatively easy to maintain. Whereas in SC2 (and this is the scary part for me) you never know who your going to face, exactly how good he is and its 1v1! Theres noone else but you and him. Theres no excuses like "My team is terrible" or "You got a lucky shot" it all falls on you to best your opponent. But Blizzard those bastards make sure you only face people that are roughly the same skill level! Making it near impossible to maintain a WLR above 50% (Unless your a top tier player)
So needless to say I welcomed the new change to hide losses in all leagues Diamond and lower. I thought to myself "What a relief now I can ladder as much as I want and not care if I win or lose!"
Oh how wrong I was.
Because as soon as I played my placement match in the new season I got promoted to masters.
So now here I am with like 10 games played, too proud and egoistic to demote myself so i can enjoy the stress free, fun Dreamy Diamond ladder I imagined before the Season reset and too scared to play in my new masters league which I am both very proud of and completely terrified by.
All I want is to be able to hide my losses and be able to put a password on re-enabling it so I can lock the door and throw the key away so as to deny any temptation to look at the losses. I think this would satisfy all players both casual and serious.
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This.
I know too many people that get promoted to a league that they think correctly showcases the level of skill they possess and then they will rarely ladder again until the next season rolls in so they can re-establish themselves in the same league.
On the matter of Losses showing.
Heres my scenario:
I was Diamond 1v1 before Season 2 and I am really afraid of the ladder, I come from an FPS background where your kill to death ratio plays a big role and so when I started SC2 my WLR became the new thing. But in FPS games you join a server with a mix of all skill levels so a good KD ratio is relatively easy to maintain. Whereas in SC2 (and this is the scary part for me) you never know who your going to face, exactly how good he is and its 1v1! Theres noone else but you and him. Theres no excuses like "My team is terrible" or "You got a lucky shot" it all falls on you to best your opponent. But Blizzard those bastards make sure you only face people that are roughly the same skill level! Making it near impossible to maintain a WLR above 50% (Unless your a top tier player)
So needless to say I welcomed the new change to hide losses in all leagues Diamond and lower. I thought to myself "What a relief now I can ladder as much as I want and not care if I win or lose!"
Oh how wrong I was.
Because as soon as I played my placement match in the new season I got promoted to masters.
So now here I am with like 10 games played, too proud and egoistic to demote myself so i can enjoy the stress free, fun Dreamy Diamond ladder I imagined before the Season reset and too scared to play in my new masters league which I am both very proud of and completely terrified by.
All I want is to be able to hide my losses and be able to put a password on re-enabling it so I can lock the door and throw the key away so as to deny any temptation to look at the losses. I think this would satisfy all players both casual and serious.
Very well said
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I agree.
Does anyone have any insight as to why I'm still in bronze league?
I have about 80+ wins(Season 1 and Season 2) and only about 40 losses. I keep playing every day yet I've never ranked up!
Should I keep grinding in the bronze league or just give up all hope?
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On April 07 2011 00:50 Chronald wrote:
I like your points OP, I think that you really put some time into this post, and that is much appreciated.
I think that Blizzard has done exactly as you said, made a ladder that encourages people to play. However the main gripe that many community members have with the ladder is that it doesn't encourage you to get better. Even casual players want to be better than they were yesterday, that is the nature of any game. They claim they want to get better, but they don't do the right things to improve. Tell a casual newbie he should focus on mechanics and macro. He will think you just burden him with tiresome practice work while in fact a better strategy (or a better cheese) would just do fine.
I think we should not try to convert those guys. It is up to them if they do the right steps to actually improve. There don't have to.
I do want to give all types of players free quarter unless they are unfriendly and do shittalk to others.
The Elo system would not work well for Starcraft. Elo uses just one single number, but the MMR system uses two, if not three numbers ("skill" and "confidence in that skill" are indirectly confirmed through Blizzcon Q&A.) If you like real competition, you can sign up to an open tournament. The SC2 ladder is a playing environent, no tournament or real league.
Also the bonus pool is great. I did not mention it in the OP because it would be too long then. But the bonus pool with the point inflation rewards activity. Having mediocre players active is better than having good players inactive. Real competitive players don't give a damn to the ladder anyways, they seek their success in tournament where they could earn some money.
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I agree.
Does anyone have any insight as to why I'm still in bronze league?
I have about 80+ wins(Season 1 and Season 2) and only about 40 losses. I keep playing every day yet I've never ranked up!
Should I keep grinding in the bronze league or just give up all hope?
Let's reverse things, if you were 40-90(approx) would you keep grinding? I highly doubt so
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On April 07 2011 00:38 Achaia wrote:
While I don't really care that they've hidden the losses for players below masters I do think it's kind of silly. For instance, yesterday I was off my game and got crushed all day. I ended the day 4 - 9 overall I think. From what I understand Blizzard wants to hide the fact that I suck so I keep playing lol. The funny thing is that I'm painfully aware of how bad I was yesterday (not that this will keep me from playing). Does hiding losses from players really make them think they're better than they are?
The other reason that I think Blizzard may have hidden losses that isn't really discussed much from what I've seen is to help reduce flaming because of records. If someone has more losses than wins it seems that they are more likely to get flamed after a game when someone is able to see their record. It still seems to me though that this is unnecessary for Diamond and maybe even Platinum.
Again, I'm not really against it because I'm generally aware of how bad/good I'm playing because I don't forget losses easily but maybe that's just me. Has hiding the losses really had a positive effect on lower level players though? I would be interested to hear from some Bronze/Silver/Gold players on the change.
Instead of making yourself aware that you suck, I think its more so to keep your "suckiness" hidden from other people, so that someone isn't embarrassed to play if they lost many games. That way, a person will be more inclined to play, even if they lose often, cause no one has to know about it.
Blizzard is a business and will of course do anything that will help them sell more copies of the game. Many starting off players aren't going to be instantly good, so this is a way to keep the new players to keep on playing.
I agree with what other said about the option to display losses and/or only hiding loss records for bronze to gold players, since higher level players below masters can tend to be proud of their matches and would prefer to have the losses shown.
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United States12237 Posts
Another thing to consider: think about why they made losses visible only for Master players and above. If it was to protect fragile newbie egos, losses would only be hidden for Bronze, or maybe Silver. Blizzard knows how skill is distributed, that's why there are different tiers of divisions, that's why some leagues are larger than others. Statistically, there will always be plenty of competition around your level unless you're around that top 2%ish part of the ladder. In that sense, a win ratio is not relevant.
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I'm not really convinced someone would buy the game just because it's easy, or because there are strats that can be devastating to noobs. I hear people talk about halo, COD or whatnot and how they own noobs, but that doesn't make me want to spend money to buy those games. How are they even gonna figure out that the ladder doesnt show your win/loss rating? does it explain that on the box? do they advertise it on commericals? I've just never seen the logic behind these assumptions that making the game easier or more casual/noob friendly will make people buy more copies.
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the ladder system just gets worse and worse. remember when platinum was the top league? they just keep adding more and more leagues which is meaningless. first diamond and now masters. everytime they add a league it doesnt matter, the top players will always be in the top league and anything lower is noobie. if theyre going to add masters, then diamond needs to still have a lot of really good semi-pro players so that masters actually MEANS SOMETHING. right now if ur in diamond that means u SUCK. they need to stop adding meaningless leagues. they need to change it so that only the top 200 are in masters (aka grandmaster). theres no need for all these leagues. can diamond and platinum mean ur good again plz.
the noobs already know they suck cus theyre in anything below masters league ALREADY. what the point of hiding the losses? just the fact ur not in masters means u alrdy know u suck so who cares about displaying ur losses? completely useless measure instilled by blizz who make the most irrelevant and illogical decisions.
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I actually play ladder a lot more now they have disabled showing losses.
I have been very busy in the new year and I was formerly ranked middle diamond (about 1500 pts) but without constant practice I'd go on get walloped and I psychologically seeing my w:l ratio go down the toilet just put me off laddering.
Nonsense of course, it's just a number, but it had an effect.
Obviously a new season and all that, but I feel less concerned about playing casual games here and there as time permits and not worrying too much about my stats.
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EPT
