EPTWhy the Blizzard ladder is great - Page 13
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Authweight
United States304 Posts
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Coolzx
United States138 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 09 2011 04:39 Lysenko wrote: Actually, it does try – over time.Actually, your win/loss ratio will permanently deviate from 50% if you have in the past had any periods where your MMR has been shifting rapidly up or down. So, for example, take a break and lose some games in a row and you'll be below 50% until you have a winning streak, which the system will do its best not to give you. The matchmaking system makes its best effort to match you with an equal opponent for each individual game, but it does not try to bring your season-wide ratio to 50%. When you took a break, the confidence in the MMR widens and you get opponents from a greater range until the match making has a fairly good probability to predict the outcome of the match. When the MMR does reflect your skill, you still sometimes get better or poorer players. Overall it will come out to 50%. If you have a small loss streak, it has no meaning since it is random noise. After a period of many games lost with only very few games won, you have an easy time to keep up until the MMR adapted to you true skill. Smaller series of losses and wins are noise anyways. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 09 2011 10:56 Coolzx wrote: It is good because it don't let you get in the wrong mindset. If you play a tournament, you want to avoid losses. If you play ladder, you want to learn from losses.How is not having lost in your record good? If you are only rewarded (an increase number in win) and are not punish when you lose (having a lose point) then the win is meaningless. Having lost makes people more motivated to get better and gets more win than loss. Given enough games played, the loss counter will be similar to the win counter anyway regardless of your skill (unless you play in the top league or when you intentionally throw games.) If you have not played enough games yet, the win ratio is still giving no information about your skill because the influence of randomness is greater than your skill. | ||
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
If you go on a winning streak in a mid-league, the system re-evaluates where it believes you should be. In the short term, it will try and ensure your W/L is 50% (as opposed to overall). For example, if you win 10 games in a row in Platinum and get promoted to Diamond, chances are your W/L ratio will always be n+10/n (or at least until you have a bad lose streak). Unless you are actively improving, your W/L should remain relatively 50%. If you are actively improving, it will be above 50% up until you hit your new skill level, when it will return to 50%. Honestly, although it is annoying, they really don't hurt anyone by removing it. It's fairly obvious to a player when they're actively playing if they've been winning a very large portion of their recent games (and hence improving). Masters players (the top of the ladder) can already see their W/L. The only players this really effects are Bronze players who actually cannot win 50% of their games. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 09 2011 04:51 branflakes14 wrote: You still can see that. You can watch Day[9] with insightful commentary. Or you can play a tournament, you may be get lucky and play a pro.I'd have to disagree that it's not fair to let smurfs crush new players. Hell, you'd have a lot more to learn from a replay of you getting your face mashed in by Jaedong than by someone just as bad as you. Being smashed to pieces in a game isn't a bad thing, you can see what better players are doing. To keep people playing in the ladder, you should give them opponents which they can beat. Giving them much too strong opponents would be considered unfair. No-one keeps playing a game which is obviously unfair. Also a Jaedong probably would not like to waste time to crush some noobs. He wants opponents, not victims. | ||
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shadowy
Bulgaria305 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 09 2011 07:47 Xyik wrote: Then you need better players as your friends to play a custom game. Or do you think, better players would like to constantly bash noobs instead of getting a worthy opponent?The reason I DON'T like to ladder is because they hold my hand. If I lose to a better player, I want to play another player of the same level so I can learn and adjust my builds, not play someone worse. Even if you just lost a game, you still can get a player next time who easily beats you. The system intentionally allows a range of opponents and will not try too hard to match the exact skill. The reason behind is that if you always get someone of complete same skill level, any game tends to be exhausting. This also would drive away players. A little randomness here and here will sometimes let you crush a lesser skilled player but sometimes also let a player with more skill crush you. | ||
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MadChem
Germany218 Posts
My w/l ratio doesnt really interest me because it will be around 50% anyway until i may be get some day into masters. Anyway, for now is my goal to get promoted to diamond (I get already games with low lvl diamonds). If you really want to now your game history. Get a peace of paper and write it down( or if you forgot how to write with a pen, create a dow file) I do it myself and it is fine... | ||
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DisaFear
Australia4074 Posts
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On April 09 2011 08:06 Sixears wrote: My problem is the attempts to control how you feel about your losses. I think its a creepy way to improve replayability, this abstract idea that is there to pat you on the back when your losing, and with bonus points to lift you higher when your winning. its strangely manipulative no? i mean we're talking about bronze player motivation like they aren't here. People know they are losing, they just don't get hard numbers: Player - "hey sc2ladder can i see my how many losses i have?" The Invisible Hand of the Ladder - "nah, we think its better if you don't know" Player - "well im just kind of curious how i've been doing" The Invisible Hand of the Ladder - "trust me, if you knew what we know it would DESTROY you!" I'm half facetious but i do think its a bit disconcerting. This. A hundred times this. Even if their reasons deviate from this, it is still the feeling I get, and it is an utterly disgusting thought. Honesty and clarity are virtues. There is only one reality. It needs to be visible and it needs to be addressed. On April 09 2011 04:40 funkybovinator wrote: The only measure of skill is your league, as it gives you a window in which your MMR falls. That window is too blurry to be of use in sufficiently determining where you stand. That is our whole criticism. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 09 2011 21:06 enzym wrote: What do you know if you would know that you are ranked between RandomZerg and NoobToss, two random noname players? The ranking would only have any meaning if you compare yourself to someone with a name. You can find out who you can beat in many open tournaments. That window is too blurry to be of use in sufficiently determining where you stand. That is our whole criticism. If you are good enough, you can even use the ladder (Grandmaster League.) If you are just a random player, like >99% of all SC2 players, it has no meaning to know that you are ranked 65.535 in your reagion. There is less "truth" in a statistics like #65.535 than one may be thinks. There is much random noise which will change your rank since the surrounding players go up and down. But many players would consider a rank-up by +4 or -5 to be meaningful. | ||
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vol_
Australia1608 Posts
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On April 09 2011 10:56 Coolzx wrote: How is not having lost in your record good? If you are only rewarded (an increase number in win) and are not punish when you lose (having a lose point) then the win is meaningless. Having lost makes people more motivated to get better and gets more win than loss. It is only meaningless if all you care about is your w/l ratio. If you plan on playing this game long-term, the only thing that matters is improvement. | ||
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Darkkal
United States60 Posts
On April 07 2011 00:39 Icx wrote: Okay what about the other person, let's call him Icx. Icx is far from a talented rts player, and he will never be in the top of something, but he still wants to get good at the game as possible. Icx is also very competitive, and likes the competitive aspect of starcraft2 Icx is in diamond, not the best out there, but not a bronze league newbie anymore. Icx wants to know how much he has improved, how far he is progressing, and w/l ratio is part of that, why does he have to have the same rules enforced on to him by bob the bronze leaguer? My point is, yes everything in your post is correct, but imo blizzard went to far with enforcing it onto a to large group of players. I can understand it for bronze/Silver/gold, but everyone I know in plat/diamond is actually playing to get better, and isn't seeing this is just a pure "I wanna be a battlecruiser commander". Why not have a system where they are disabled by default and you can actually turn them on if you so wish? Or enforce them only on the casual players, for example bronze/silver (and if you look at sc2 ranks, like 40% of the community is in bronze, and my guess is that is actually that large more casual crowd that doesn't want to see their w/l ratio or care about it) if "lcx" was smart enough, he would just check up on SC2ranks and compare is rank to his previous rank | ||
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protoss_machine
Canada47 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 10 2011 05:25 protoss_machine wrote: The win/loss ratio is meaningless when you are not playing in Master or higher because the system tries to get you to 50% regardless. If you have deviations from 50%, the only reason is that you did not yet play enough. Win/loss in Diamond and below says nothing about your current skill. The ladder now hides an irrelevant statistics to you to prevent you from falsely putting any meaning in it.I think I have a right to know what my win/lose ratio is whenever I want to. It was fine before the patch... There are some statistics one would like to have and we hope that Blizzard will implement. Win ratio is not one of them. | ||
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On April 10 2011 05:28 [F_]aths wrote: The win/loss ratio is meaningless when you are not playing in Master or higher because the system tries to get you to 50% regardless. If you have deviations from 50%, the only reason is that you did not yet play enough. Win/loss in Diamond and below says nothing about your current skill. The ladder now hides an irrelevant statistics to you to prevent you from falsely putting any meaning in it. There are some statistics one would like to have and we hope that Blizzard will implement. Win ratio is not one of them. You do not get to dictate the meaning of that statistic for other people. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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MrKennyKRH
Denmark46 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 10 2011 05:33 enzym wrote: Right, because Blizzard does.You do not get to dictate the meaning of that statistic for other people. Again: Blizzard constructed the match making in a way that win ratio will be 50% regardless (+- random noise) with enough games played. The only reason why this is not true for very top players is, that there are too few of the same caliber online at the same time, so they get more often opponents which are weaker to keep game search short. The win ratio has no meaning by design. Some folks put a wrong meaning in there, for example "If I stay >50%, I am better than someone in the same league with <50%." But this is not true. It is only a sign that you either had luck (when you have a small deviation from 50%) or that you did not play enough games yet (for any greater deviation.) The only way you can get >50% is to play people who are worse than you. That does not mean that you are better, that only means that the match making system is currently not giving you appropriate opponents. This can happen if you had a recent skill increase and your MMR did not properly adjust yet. But your happiness regarding the >50% will be short because when your MMR plateaus, you will get back to 50% (+- random noise). | ||
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