EPTBut on a serious note, most of the changes make sense. I'm pretty pleased with the balance of the game right now, though ZvP is still a bit tough.. and when playing against T the fact that they can open with a bunker rush then switch to blue flame hellions and right as you barely hold that off cloaked banshees are in your mineral line is definetely...frustrating. But we'll see how everything plays out.
Situation Report: Patch 1.3 - Page 2
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Karthane
United States1183 Posts
But on a serious note, most of the changes make sense. I'm pretty pleased with the balance of the game right now, though ZvP is still a bit tough.. and when playing against T the fact that they can open with a bunker rush then switch to blue flame hellions and right as you barely hold that off cloaked banshees are in your mineral line is definetely...frustrating. But we'll see how everything plays out. | ||
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andiCR
Costa Rica2273 Posts
On April 05 2011 01:53 shakenbake wrote: yea buff a 4 and 6 gate rush. laddering will be fun!!!! lol User was warned for this post | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On April 05 2011 01:56 Karthane wrote: To be honest, I think most players in general would've preferred that. It's an incredibly boring unit.Considering they were going to either nerf collosi or HT as a zerg player i would definetely have preferred the collosi nerf :p | ||
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TheResidentEvil
United States991 Posts
1. cheaper obs 2. faster phoenix build time 3. faster halluc 4. remove amulet 5. Void ray "nerf" Thats it. thats all the changes to toss. Now suddenly everyone complaining protoss so OP. its so ridiculous. the game goes in stages so right now, play through it!! | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On April 05 2011 01:50 the9thdude wrote: Collossi are big and can be targeted by air, High Templars can be warped in anywhere there is a Pylon and can basically kill anything when they spawn. Templars are harder to get than Colossi, and harder to use. Templars aren't a unit we saw in 99% of PvP PvT PvZ either. If they think protoss aoe is too strong, why would they nerf the one we don't see very often, beside PvT after 25min ? | ||
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bentski
Canada31 Posts
Although we don’t want to see battlecruisers used in every terran late game, we noticed they’re hardly ever used at all. To encourage their use in more games, we decided to buff their biggest weakness, movement speed. I find this amusing. They noticed BCs are hardly ever used? Even before the patch they were still used like 10X more than carriers. I would take a collosus nerf if they give the carriers a buff. I miss carriers!! | ||
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Kippers
United Kingdom100 Posts
Anyways its nice to see the reasoning behind the bunker change... weirdly it helped me hold a bunker rush earlier today, so its not completely useless. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:00 TheResidentEvil wrote: I think blizzard needs to leave this game alone for a long while. A few months back before MC protoss was getting owned in tournaments. What has really changed for them?? 1. cheaper obs 2. faster phoenix build time 3. faster halluc 4. remove amulet 5. Void ray "nerf" Thats it. thats all the changes to toss. Now suddenly everyone complaining protoss so OP. its so ridiculous. the game goes in stages so right now, play through it!! That's not entirely true. It's been common knowledge for over half a year that Protoss has an insanely powerful late game. The reason for the increase of complaints is that several nerfs and buffs have also made any kind of 4/6 gate strategy even more powerful than it already is, so protoss ends up having a great early-mid game as well, especially against zerg. If anything, the outrage against protoss was a long time coming. | ||
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WGarrison
United States96 Posts
For example, with terran 8 marines and a medivac is small but strong. A few harrass hellions in a group is small but strong. Little groups of infantry is small but strong. With zerg, small muta groups are strong, small zergling packs are strong. Protoss does not have that, they until the patch had zealot templar warp in groups that were strong but not even that anymore. Protoss currently have to have a deathball to make up for the fact that they can't engage in small army battles (without way outbasing oppoenent). I would like to see a nerf to the deathball, particularly in the aoe area, but there has to be some sort of buff that allows us to fight the small battles too. Just strictly nerfing the deathball could leave protoss broken. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12244 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:15 nvs. wrote: I love their "we don't want to make big changes" argument to justify the neutering of an entire unit that has had a strong history in both SC1 and SC2. RIP HT's. Uhh HTs were never able to a) be instantly warped in and b) storm immediately after spawning. There is a gigantic difference between SC1 and SC2 HTs in both regards. | ||
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Malpractice.248
United States734 Posts
Collossi are big and can be targeted by air, High Templars can be warped in anywhere there is a Pylon and can basically kill anything when they spawn. It's 80 damage over 4 seconds, there's a second between the cast and when it starts doing damage, they're slow, building a pylon takes time, and both warp prisms and pylons are comparatively fragile at the point in the game that the Toss player can start making HTs. Don't attempt to claim that HTs, especially in their current state, are overpowered. Well, you still have FF which Z has no answer to early game. | ||
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:17 Excalibur_Z wrote: Uhh HTs were never able to a) be instantly warped in and b) storm immediately after spawning. There is a gigantic difference between SC1 and SC2 HTs in both regards. Never said they were the same, just that they are now essentially unusable. A 10 energy reduction as a bonus from KA seems more justified than removing the upgrade completely. I haven't made a single HT since the change.  | ||
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
1.With the archon seeing so little play, nerfing it would be pointless. 2. The colossus, as stated so frequently, is a constant in all matchups. + Show Spoiler + This was an attempt to balance overall AoE, a smaller change vs a larger one is always a better idea, and it's smart they went this way- any change to the colossus would shatter the late game foundation of pretty much every matchup 3.The carrier already has the highest DPS in the game, any shape of buff to it should be done very carefully I'm disappointed that they viewed the archon toilet as a bug, rather than a cool usage of the mothership. Ultimately that nerf makes sense, just a bit upsetting as the archon toilet was so awesome and rare to see! Seems like the fears of the HT nerf effecting PvT were fairly unwarranted (to date, anyways), in spite of the neutering of the high templar's use. As Tyler said, adding that extra damage for each charging zealot, even if for just one hit, is a lot of damage Protoss' did not get before in battles. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3511 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:25 nvs. wrote: Never said they were the same, just that they are now essentially unusable. A 10 energy reduction as a bonus from KA seems more justified than removing the upgrade completely. I haven't made a single HT since the change. Pretty hyperbolic statement there... You know that you can still instantly feedback right? ^^ | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Since infestors are more of a core/staple unit in ZvZ capable of handling roaches you can put out more infestors than you could before. So with the increased # of fungals its more practical to kill mutas purely via fungal and you can skip hydras entirely. It's also easier to do due to the reduced amount of time, and with the increased DPS if you fungal mutas over something important they deal less damage and won't live long enough to take out anything like tech. You can also do things like devout more resources towards spore crawlers because you have infestors + roach which can hold off their roach transition whereas before you needed to make sure to have an equal or greater # of roaches in comparison. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:27 usethis2 wrote: Anyone feels like he's saying the colossus is next? We can only hope. >.> | ||
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entropius
United States1046 Posts
By design, Colossi dominate ground armies and die to air-to-air. Fine; there are some interesting design possibilities there, but it only works that way in PvT. In PvZ and PvP, the trouble is that there is no good air-to-air for them to die to. In PvT, T needs to get enough vikings to kill the colossi, but not so many that they will fall behind on ground units. This isn't a complete "oh, you overproduced vikings, they're useless and you lose" situation though, because they can land. Then there are interesting positional battles in which the viking user tries to get a good angle on the colossi to snipe them without taking too much stalker fire in return. The protoss can get phoenix and more colossi and contest the air, but then the terran can get thors, and an interesting maneuver game develops wherein the T tries to exploit his longer antiair range to either kill the phoenix or break up the P ball. HT are used vs. Terran because 1) warpin storms help counter terran dropship play, and 2) colossi are vulnerable to vikings, while shutting down HT with ghosts is not as guaranteed. If a P produces too many colossi the T simply makes vikings and kills them. The trouble in PvZ is that no such interesting dynamic; the root problem is that corruptors suck ass. They're built vs. colossi, but they're not nearly as good as vikings in that role because they do less DPS (even with corruption!) at less range and cost more, and can't land to help out after the colossi are dead. The corruptor's attributes that make it good at capital ship killing -- high hp and high armor -- are mostly irrelevant. Z must spend much more on corruptors than P spends on colossi to kill them before they decimate Z's ground army, yet even once the colossi are dead, the corruptors are useless and the Z ground army already took a great deal of damage from the colossi. The range really is huge: vikings can engage colossi without taking much stalker fire in return, and the stalkers must blink far out of position to try to engage them (at which point they run). Corruptors can't do this, *and* kill them more slowly. Void rays complicate this even more, since they are an air-to-everything unit that actually wins against the corruptor, a dedicated air-to-air unit. This is different than the Phoenix + Colo dynamic in PvT. Phoenix have utility against ground, but not as much as voids; Vikings again can exploit their longer range to play positional games; and Terran have Thors, which are both competent in the ground engagement and absolutely murder Phoenix from a very long way away. Zerg have no such options; the only unit they have that's reasonably competent against the void ray is the hydralisk, and it's not an option because you're not going to get at the voids without melting to colossus fire. tl;dr the biggest problem with colossus in PvZ is not necessarily that colossi are too good but that zerg air-to-air (corruptors) suck too much. In PvT colossi are kept in check because vikings are tremendously good. But Zerg have to rely on the pretty asstastic corruptor. PvP is a lollercaust at the moment also. Aside from herp derp 4gate, the only competent air-to-air in the matchup is voids, so of course colossi are going to run rampant. Not exactly sure how to address the issues; my best suggestion would be: --Templar amulet reinstated, provides +15 energy --Colo range buff is +2 instead of +3 *or* colo splash length reduced slightly (This would leave both units quite viable in pvt) --Corruptor range increased from 6 to 7 and corruptors lose the attribute "armored" (These changes are really only relevant to the pvz matchup, and would make the "engage with corruptors first and just tank the stalker fire while shooting colos" tactic more viable, while also letting them soak void fire better) Another interesting change to the PvZ dynamic would be to buff ultras. It's not as though they see all that much use, except for ZvT when T falls behind on infantry upgrades; a giant beastly expensive tier 3 unit that has melee range, doesn't shoot up, and takes a year to build has to do the only thing it does pretty dominatingly to see much play. Giving Zerg a *ground* unit that could take on a colossus ball head on would be an interesting dynamic, especially since it would encourage back-teching to immortals to hold the ultras. | ||
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