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On April 05 2011 02:51 da_head wrote:
i wouldn't mind a collosus nerf in the slightest (as long as it would be accompanied by a gateway unit buff). however, this immediately breaks 4 gate, which is an issue that blizzard acknowledges as well. hmm.. i wonder what they're gonna do.
The more I think about it, the more I think that warpgates shouldn't have made it past beta. Negating defender's advantage removes one of the cornerstones of any strategy game. And the balancing Blizzard did to compensate (weak gateway units, colossus) has had a bad effect on the game. Nearly every single problem in any vP match-up is caused directly by warpgates or the balancing Blizz did to compensate for warpgates.
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On April 05 2011 03:07 Shifft wrote:
I don't understand....the fungal change was for...mutalisks? And they think the change kept it the same strength against Terran?
The +30% armored damage change was more strictly targeted towards stalker-based protoss armies, as well as marauder-based terran armies
For ZvZ, yes it was to help the Mutalisk use in the matchup. But they know that it would also need a buff against stalkers and Marauders. Not sure where you think they believed it would be the same against Terran.
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On April 05 2011 03:07 Tyree wrote:
They had a choice, nerf HT or Colossi, they picked HT and left it at that.
They outright said they would not nerf both as that would make Toss too weak.
I suggest anyone hoping for a Colossi nerf to forget about it since HT were nerfed.
You mean they outright said it MIGHT make toss too weak and will be evaluating the situation before touching colossus
We felt that if we were to nerf both of these units protoss may end up too weak in the late game. Therefore, we decided to adjust high templars first and see how the game plays out
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On April 05 2011 03:11 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:07 Tyree wrote:
They had a choice, nerf HT or Colossi, they picked HT and left it at that.
They outright said they would not nerf both as that would make Toss too weak.
I suggest anyone hoping for a Colossi nerf to forget about it since HT were nerfed. You mean they outright said it MIGHT make toss too weak and will be evaluating the situation before touching colossus Show nested quote +We felt that if we were to nerf both of these units protoss may end up too weak in the late game. Therefore, we decided to adjust high templars first and see how the game plays out
Yea, my point is that some people took this is as they will nerf Colossi!. When they are merely saying that as of now, just nerfing the HT is fine in their eyes
You know how people get, suddenly next patch outcries will happen with "Blizzard promised to me they would nerf Colossi and they did NOT! WTF MAN!"
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On April 05 2011 03:06 LoLAdriankat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:00 Daralii wrote:On April 05 2011 02:55 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Good and reasonable statements by David Kim. I still think Protoss late game is ridiculous though, no matter what race you are, even for PvP (where whoever has one more colossus wins). Watching Kiwi chronoboost colossi out of three robos vs Select made me cry. Maybe Select could've dropped on the robo facilities but from there it's kind of a guessing game where you hope your opponent's warp-in is still cooling down so they can't respond to your drop as quickly. A single round of warp-ins is rarely enough to handle a couple medivacs full of M&M, especially if given room to kite. In long macro games (which is the case in the game I was talking about), we usually see 12+ warpgates, which is definitely enough to handle a couple of medivacs.
Not to mention you usually have a few cannons and maybe a HT sitting there. Toss drop defence late game is incredible.
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I dont think theres a single person who doesnt think Collosi will get a nerf down the down the roa someday.
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On April 05 2011 02:27 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 02:25 nvs. wrote:On April 05 2011 02:17 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 05 2011 02:15 nvs. wrote:
I love their "we don't want to make big changes" argument to justify the neutering of an entire unit that has had a strong history in both SC1 and SC2. RIP HT's. Uhh HTs were never able to a) be instantly warped in and b) storm immediately after spawning. There is a gigantic difference between SC1 and SC2 HTs in both regards. Never said they were the same, just that they are now essentially unusable. A 10 energy reduction as a bonus from KA seems more justified than removing the upgrade completely. I haven't made a single HT since the change.  Pretty hyperbolic statement there... You know that you can still instantly feedback right? ^^
I still do this to defend against medivac drops haha
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Nice, they clearly say that they are considering nerfing fixing colossus in the next balance patch.
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On April 05 2011 03:17 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:11 syllogism wrote:On April 05 2011 03:07 Tyree wrote:
They had a choice, nerf HT or Colossi, they picked HT and left it at that.
They outright said they would not nerf both as that would make Toss too weak.
I suggest anyone hoping for a Colossi nerf to forget about it since HT were nerfed. You mean they outright said it MIGHT make toss too weak and will be evaluating the situation before touching colossus We felt that if we were to nerf both of these units protoss may end up too weak in the late game. Therefore, we decided to adjust high templars first and see how the game plays out Yea, my point is that some people took this is as they will nerf Colossi!. When they are merely saying that as of now, just nerfing the HT is fine in their eyes You know how people get, suddenly next patch outcries will happen with "Blizzard promised to me they would nerf Colossi and they did NOT! WTF MAN!"
No, they didn't say it was "fine", but that they are always careful about these things so they didn't want to do both at once. Considering they said both HTs and colossi are slightly overpowered, I'd say it's more likely than not that colossus gets nerfed eventually. Of course, nothing is confirmed at this point, just a possibility.
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nice, so 3 gate proxi rush and 4 gate is TOTALY viable and ok, even when it is on a huge map totaly negating any disadvantages that should be suffered from it being such a large map
but a BUNKER placement which requires your opponent not to scout or not to micro well is OP and needs nerfing ?
stim rush which i havent seen work in counltess games needs a nerf but the ammount of options protoss have early and late game with proxi's all over the map are perfectly fine ?
i wouldnt be to bothered about all this if protoss couldnt just warp in units anywhere on the map giving reinforcements where needed etc, ESPECIALY DT's on large maps which totaly contains a terran giving the protoss a huge advantage,
it just seems that terran has constantly having to react to what the P is doing, the ONLY thing p really need to hard counter is cloak banshee but that is IT apart from that they can go fast expand and gateway units and robo
early game i have to watch out for proxi gateway, proxi pylon 3 gate rush, proxi 4 gate all in, proxi voidrays, DT rush, phoenix rush
how on earth is this even when i literaly cannot put ANY early pressure on a P ? i lol'd when i saw the bunker and stim nerf but atleast amulet got a change...
but as i said that is not the whole problem, splash damage on colossus rape before vikings can counter them well the only time you see a 200/200 fight with a t comming on top is when the P completley screws the attack up, forcefields and colossus splash is just to much to handle,
i NEVER see a terran come back from a game they are losing but i've watched countless games where proxi pylons etc have gave a P an easier time getting back into the game thgat they may be losing,
MC's style is just another thing that P's are comming up with which is showing in tournament results as it is slowly getting dominated by P
totaly reminds me of dawn of war with eldar having so many abilities which raised the skill cap above the other races -_-
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These explanations were great. First time in a long time
I've read something balance related from Blizzard and agreeing!
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I wish Blizzard would address PvP.
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It is nice to see some transparancy from Blizzard. It makes it a lot easier to see why certain changes were put in place. Blizzard talking to the community is a good thing.
All I am wondering now is, has fungal growth become too effective Vs. the terran Bio ball, as it applies the damage in half the time, thus the medivac cannot heal through it as effectively.
P.S The last line was great ^_^
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For me it feels like protoss is really fragile in the sense of balancing, especially the colossus. They do the right thing at taking small steps in the balance. Because if they would nerf the colossus to much, then theres a possibiity that the protoss will be to weak.
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I think the HT nerf was necessary, because they have been used for defending,harass and pushing in late game.
The Colossi is just viable for the big killing ball that everyone complains about.
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I just noticed David Kim used the word metagame. Not you too David
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On April 05 2011 03:07 AJMcSpiffy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 02:53 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow, their reasoning just further goes to prove that they are far out of touch with their own game and the issues affecting it. Could you put some examples into your reasoning? Because I'm actually curious as to where any of this post says to you that they are "far out of touch". I like their reasons behind the changes, but I want to comment on one thing. They mentioned a couple times how important scouting is, especially when discussing the stimpack change. I feel like a better option would be to allow more scouting opportunities (talking from a Zerg perspective here, maybe overlord speed on hatchery tech?) instead of simply delaying the research time. I do like the Khydarian amulet change reasoning in particular though. I've noticed in my games that it's much easier (not TOO easy of course, but easier) to harass a Protoss around the map.
I have in mind the KA nerf in particular, and how they decided to shut down an entire tech tree and force protoss to go Colossi instead, which everyone agree are overpowered and boring to use. Essentially, they are dulling down the game. When Blizzard created each SC2 unit, I'm sure they wanted each one of them to at least get some usage and for original strategies to be designed around such units. No one will use HT now except very situationally. The same is true of reapers after they received their huge nerf. More units will suffer this fate in the future, if their current hack & slash balancing continues.
As has been discussed in countless threads before, there were more optimal ways of going about the HT issue. In addition, most people agree that a fun game where each race has certain tactics that might be overpowered is far more desirable than a bland, tunnel-vision-esque philosophy where every unit and tactic somehow needs to be compensated by an equivalent one on the opposing team. Many people have mentioned BW, and how it was fun and competitive despite every race having certain aspects that could be considered overpowered.
However, shocking as it may be, Blizzard seems to be completely oblivious to community suggestions. I speculate that there is a serious case of groupthink going on in their balance meetings which results in them being out of touch with their community's thoughts and enjoyment of the game.
You'll note that this simplification in the name of balance has deeply plagued WoW, which is run by the same people essentially. It began that each class was unique with significant advantages and disadvantages which made for a dynamic and rich game; as the patches rolled in one by one, each class was given a nerf, a heal, a dispel, etc, and nowadays you can barely tell the difference between them.
A true shame.
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Canada13407 Posts
On April 05 2011 01:43 Mommas Boy wrote:
It definatley sounds like a Collosi nerf is on the way.
"2.We felt late game protoss splash damage was slightly overpowered. This applies both to high templars and colossi."
The problem being that High Templar are very difficult to use now offensively especially in PvT since you need to wait so long to get energy and emp is still very strong against them. If they change collossus while some sort of energy upgrade is removed then we will see big issues in Protoss late game since there will be very ineffective AoE damage in the later game. If we look at Select vs Kiwikaki the game was actually very close and Kiwikaki was better able to macro and the DTs going unscanned and fighting with zealots made a huge difference.
I am afraid for a Colossus nerf without working with HTs a bit more because "small changes" that come one after the other are bad. I feel if they want to really balance the matchup they need to give back amulet and nerf collossus THEN look at a middle ground between how to balance the two lategame AoE units together but look at 2 nerfs seperately.
Thats my 2 cents. Though the explanation on ghosts and their place against infestors as well as infestors vs mutas was very very interesting and nice to hear these careful considerations.
Interestingly I have seen many BC plays from high level players on stream and 4 port BC in the late game seems nigh unstoppable since they require very little ground support to be truly effective.
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On April 05 2011 01:47 never_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 01:45 Heraklitus wrote:
Yea, the hint at a possible future collossus nerf is the big news there. if this means no more mass collo battles in pvp  shoul buff gate units if thats the case though
Gateway units aren't that weak people are finding out. Notice how many Zergs are losing to mass Gateway units and Terren Bio suffering too with well placed Force fields. Not to mention warp in abilitiy gives toss strong allins.
The only way i will agree to a buff is if Warp ability is removed, which it won't be.
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EPT
