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I'm fine with warpgates and colossus getting removed if I get compensation tools, like stronger units, non-reliance on forcefields, and units that are still efficient in small groups.
On a side note, siege tanks are so much cooler than colossus. I'd rather have reavers than a unit where I just build up some other stuff to take the hits and say 'here we gooo' and a-move.
As for pvp, I think they should make some specialized changes that only effect that matchup. Here are some off the top of my head that might have some substance, but take with a grain of salt:
-cannot warp in on psi overlapping your opponents psi
-protoss units get -1 armor to shields when on enemy psi; if they have 0 armor shields already, enemy attacks behave as if they had +1 attack on shields.
-Colossus do reduced damage to shields, and storm does increased damage to shields.
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On April 05 2011 03:41 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:31 zanmat0 wrote:On April 05 2011 03:07 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On April 05 2011 02:53 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow, their reasoning just further goes to prove that they are far out of touch with their own game and the issues affecting it. Could you put some examples into your reasoning? Because I'm actually curious as to where any of this post says to you that they are "far out of touch". I like their reasons behind the changes, but I want to comment on one thing. They mentioned a couple times how important scouting is, especially when discussing the stimpack change. I feel like a better option would be to allow more scouting opportunities (talking from a Zerg perspective here, maybe overlord speed on hatchery tech?) instead of simply delaying the research time. I do like the Khydarian amulet change reasoning in particular though. I've noticed in my games that it's much easier (not TOO easy of course, but easier) to harass a Protoss around the map. I have in mind the KA nerf in particular, and how they decided to shut down an entire tech tree and force protoss to go Colossi instead, which everyone agree are overpowered and boring to use. Essentially, they are dulling down the game. When Blizzard created each SC2 unit, I'm sure they wanted each one of them to at least get some usage and for original strategies to be designed around such units. No one will use HT now except very situationally. The same is true of reapers after they received their huge nerf. More units will suffer this fate in the future, if their current hack & slash balancing continues. Even with colossi fulfilling the splash requirement, HTs are still critical for defending expos from drops, and killing banshee play - the KA nerf hardly affects these functions. I'm positive people will begin adding them back into their play at appropriate times. People are simply too used to using storm as an on-demand and throw away weapon rather than keeping their templar alive.
Bolded - the reason people dont / cant concentrate on keeping templar alive is largely because they are SO DAMNED SLOW. Once you get a templar into position to storm, its basically dead, between its terrible movespeed and getting hit by a concussive shell. Thats what turned templar into an "on-demand," pay 150 gas for a storm type unit.
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On April 05 2011 05:48 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:24 pureball wrote:
"Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes."
but proxi pylon 3 gate and 4 gate all ins are perfectly fine? give me a F'n break ......
MUCH harder to scout , hardly ANY warning, reinforce right outside your base (do NOT say you should scout because thats basicaly why they nerfed bunker buildtime)
absolute joke. well dont quite like your wording but agree with the point. how they can say stuff like that with warpgate variations dominating since the early days of beta is beyond me. esp when the stim also has huge affects on the ability to defend pushes .. ( how often did we see a T losing to a attack with 5-15 secs left on stim since 1.3?) also stim pushes were one of the easiest things to scout/expect and defend . not to mention bigger maps already decreasing the timing window a ton... i dont think its a huge gamebreaking point but the change was a bad one and their reasoning is even worse.
I completely agree. Nerfing stim has made 1 rax FE, basically the only viable opening against protoss imo, much harder to hold against protoss allins (4 gate, 3 gate star) and has not made 3 rax stim rushes any less effective.
The problem with protoss allins being too damn powerful since the beta isn't the strength of protoss units, but the warpin mechanic which I absolutely despise since early in the beta (
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118657). Warp gate negates defender's advantage, even on HUGE maps, and at the same time makes it difficult to harass a protoss once a good amount of warp gates are online.
Warp gate is what's wrong with protoss.
Force fields seem imba at times but I think we'd see way less of "ok that's ridiculous" moments if warp gate was flat out removed or heavily nerfed.
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On April 05 2011 08:11 susySquark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:41 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 03:31 zanmat0 wrote:On April 05 2011 03:07 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On April 05 2011 02:53 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow, their reasoning just further goes to prove that they are far out of touch with their own game and the issues affecting it. Could you put some examples into your reasoning? Because I'm actually curious as to where any of this post says to you that they are "far out of touch". I like their reasons behind the changes, but I want to comment on one thing. They mentioned a couple times how important scouting is, especially when discussing the stimpack change. I feel like a better option would be to allow more scouting opportunities (talking from a Zerg perspective here, maybe overlord speed on hatchery tech?) instead of simply delaying the research time. I do like the Khydarian amulet change reasoning in particular though. I've noticed in my games that it's much easier (not TOO easy of course, but easier) to harass a Protoss around the map. I have in mind the KA nerf in particular, and how they decided to shut down an entire tech tree and force protoss to go Colossi instead, which everyone agree are overpowered and boring to use. Essentially, they are dulling down the game. When Blizzard created each SC2 unit, I'm sure they wanted each one of them to at least get some usage and for original strategies to be designed around such units. No one will use HT now except very situationally. The same is true of reapers after they received their huge nerf. More units will suffer this fate in the future, if their current hack & slash balancing continues. Even with colossi fulfilling the splash requirement, HTs are still critical for defending expos from drops, and killing banshee play - the KA nerf hardly affects these functions. I'm positive people will begin adding them back into their play at appropriate times. People are simply too used to using storm as an on-demand and throw away weapon rather than keeping their templar alive. Bolded - the reason people dont / cant concentrate on keeping templar alive is largely because they are SO DAMNED SLOW. Once you get a templar into position to storm, its basically dead, between its terrible movespeed and getting hit by a concussive shell. Thats what turned templar into an "on-demand," pay 150 gas for a storm type unit.
This is true. It's funny how the situation even comments on "Infestors are too slow" when HT's are the slowest casters. God damn they're at carrier speed.
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On April 05 2011 08:15 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 08:11 susySquark wrote:On April 05 2011 03:41 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 03:31 zanmat0 wrote:On April 05 2011 03:07 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On April 05 2011 02:53 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow, their reasoning just further goes to prove that they are far out of touch with their own game and the issues affecting it. Could you put some examples into your reasoning? Because I'm actually curious as to where any of this post says to you that they are "far out of touch". I like their reasons behind the changes, but I want to comment on one thing. They mentioned a couple times how important scouting is, especially when discussing the stimpack change. I feel like a better option would be to allow more scouting opportunities (talking from a Zerg perspective here, maybe overlord speed on hatchery tech?) instead of simply delaying the research time. I do like the Khydarian amulet change reasoning in particular though. I've noticed in my games that it's much easier (not TOO easy of course, but easier) to harass a Protoss around the map. I have in mind the KA nerf in particular, and how they decided to shut down an entire tech tree and force protoss to go Colossi instead, which everyone agree are overpowered and boring to use. Essentially, they are dulling down the game. When Blizzard created each SC2 unit, I'm sure they wanted each one of them to at least get some usage and for original strategies to be designed around such units. No one will use HT now except very situationally. The same is true of reapers after they received their huge nerf. More units will suffer this fate in the future, if their current hack & slash balancing continues. Even with colossi fulfilling the splash requirement, HTs are still critical for defending expos from drops, and killing banshee play - the KA nerf hardly affects these functions. I'm positive people will begin adding them back into their play at appropriate times. People are simply too used to using storm as an on-demand and throw away weapon rather than keeping their templar alive. Bolded - the reason people dont / cant concentrate on keeping templar alive is largely because they are SO DAMNED SLOW. Once you get a templar into position to storm, its basically dead, between its terrible movespeed and getting hit by a concussive shell. Thats what turned templar into an "on-demand," pay 150 gas for a storm type unit. This is true. It's funny how the situation even comments on "Infestors are too slow" when HT's are the slowest casters. God damn they're at carrier speed.
I think the way they worked in bw was perfect -- slow, hard to use, but INSANE damage. Unfortunately, any newb can blanket the opponent's army with storm thanks to auto cast, so they had to significantly nerf the damage to make it balanced.
I would support a range buff to storm if getting off storms is really that difficult. But keep in mind that you might be selecting your targets too greedily -- aiming at the middle of tight pack of ranged units means you have to get closer to the front units and risk getting sniped before your storm is released.
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this patch is awesome, it's basically a zerg buff patch, everything listed except for the zealot charge and BC speed was a direct/indirect buff to zerg. I actually feel like right now, the game is pretty well balanced, I don't even mind colossi right now.
Bunker rushes are harder to pull off - indirect zerg buff for fast expanding
Amulet removed - indirect zerg buff to help corrupters, now that they can't just tech switch into instant storms, zerg can rely more on corrupters to deal with the deadlier colossi and can transition into broodlords.
Infestor buff - obvious buff for zerg, but also an indirect buff that allows for faster hive tech if you go for infestor builds, making hive timings much stronger.
Archon toilet - this was pretty much used against terran but surely helps zerg out a lot as archons did huge DPS to bio, which zerg is.
EMP nerf - indirect buff to zerg to allow more infestor play, buffing hive tech even more
over all a good patch, definitely a zerg patch which was needed. I'm pretty satisfied with the changes.
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I'll be honest, this report seems pretty bogus. It's almost like they have this 'dream' of the game should be, rather than letting it play out. I feel like they're just experimenting/testing stuff out for fun rather than addressing possible issues. I was on the fence about it until I read the stim pack change reasoning.
It wouldn’t be the first time we’ve heard that there were concerns from players about the use of Stimpacks and there’s a reason why; Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting.
What? You mean, a normal knowledge of timings? Stim packs normally only come into play with a timing attack in TvP. You don't normally see them in other matchups, and it's never something that's 'hard to deal with unless you scout'. They make it sound like you're supposed to somehow scout stim packs and then hope you can put cannons or spine crawlers up in time or something. If you play safe, stim timings are somewhat easy to deal with. However, if you cut some corners, things can be tough. It's not about scouting, though. You can scout that your opponent is not going bio, and then get less sentries for example, but stim isn't something that you need to worry about scouting. It's just a simple knowledge of timing.
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On April 05 2011 08:11 susySquark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:41 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 03:31 zanmat0 wrote:On April 05 2011 03:07 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On April 05 2011 02:53 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow, their reasoning just further goes to prove that they are far out of touch with their own game and the issues affecting it. Could you put some examples into your reasoning? Because I'm actually curious as to where any of this post says to you that they are "far out of touch". I like their reasons behind the changes, but I want to comment on one thing. They mentioned a couple times how important scouting is, especially when discussing the stimpack change. I feel like a better option would be to allow more scouting opportunities (talking from a Zerg perspective here, maybe overlord speed on hatchery tech?) instead of simply delaying the research time. I do like the Khydarian amulet change reasoning in particular though. I've noticed in my games that it's much easier (not TOO easy of course, but easier) to harass a Protoss around the map. I have in mind the KA nerf in particular, and how they decided to shut down an entire tech tree and force protoss to go Colossi instead, which everyone agree are overpowered and boring to use. Essentially, they are dulling down the game. When Blizzard created each SC2 unit, I'm sure they wanted each one of them to at least get some usage and for original strategies to be designed around such units. No one will use HT now except very situationally. The same is true of reapers after they received their huge nerf. More units will suffer this fate in the future, if their current hack & slash balancing continues. Even with colossi fulfilling the splash requirement, HTs are still critical for defending expos from drops, and killing banshee play - the KA nerf hardly affects these functions. I'm positive people will begin adding them back into their play at appropriate times. People are simply too used to using storm as an on-demand and throw away weapon rather than keeping their templar alive. Bolded - the reason people dont / cant concentrate on keeping templar alive is largely because they are SO DAMNED SLOW. Once you get a templar into position to storm, its basically dead, between its terrible movespeed and getting hit by a concussive shell. Thats what turned templar into an "on-demand," pay 150 gas for a storm type unit.
I don't agree. If well positioned the Terran bioball should be stutter stepping away from you. If your temps are in the back they should be reasonably safe.
Don't get me wrong it's not easy, they are painfully slow, but if you concentrate on keeping position and perhaps putting them in warp prisms (great for stopping irritating snipes/EMPs too), you can certainly keep them alive.
People just don't bother because colossi are easier + you need them for certain pushes anyway.
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Meh still think their reasoning for the HT nerf was quite stupid. Protoss AoE too good, I agree but then choosing to nerf the HT hard and not touch the colossus is just stupid. Grade them both down a little or change their functionality a bit but they have more the game worse now...
kaydarim amulet removed strategic options by making harass impossible... without amulet there are even less strategic options because ht itself are not worth it anymore...
I better hope they fix the balance of colossi vs HT again, I hate having the one being almost strictly better then the other.
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I wonder why they didn't give the carrier the same treatment as the BC. Even if it's (very) slightly more used that the BC, it's only because terran has vikings and banshees which can serve the same purpose.
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On April 05 2011 08:31 Markwerf wrote:
Meh still think their reasoning for the HT nerf was quite stupid. Protoss AoE too good, I agree but then choosing to nerf the HT hard and not touch the colossus is just stupid. Grade them both down a little or change their functionality a bit but they have more the game worse now...
Why would you nerf them together when you can do it one at a time? Isolating issues to identify problems is pretty common sense stuff.
kaydarim amulet removed strategic options by making harass impossible... without amulet there are even less strategic options because ht itself are not worth it anymore...
This doesn't make sense? If KA made harass impossible you should be able to harass now - isn't that a strategic option?
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-The infestor buff against protoss wasn't as good as predicted, because thermolance make it near impossible to use FG without losing your infestors and zerg have no tools to force a protoss to engage so it's worthless to FG and back (shield recharge). We have to give it time, maybe there will be some clever ways to use it.
-PvP is retarded because of warp in mechanic, it's basically rush warpgate or die tryin, don't know how to fix it, there is many solution, need to find the better one.
-the buff BC was good, more options in late game for Terran especially in TvT (the game between Ryung vs MVP was beautifull)
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So they made stim longer so T can't win early game. So that's their logic..
So how about that 4 gate?
User was warned for this post
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They think the fungal change will prompt more infestors in ZvP?
Huh.
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On April 05 2011 08:26 Wolf wrote:I'll be honest, this report seems pretty bogus. It's almost like they have this 'dream' of the game should be, rather than letting it play out. I feel like they're just experimenting/testing stuff out for fun rather than addressing possible issues. I was on the fence about it until I read the stim pack change reasoning. Show nested quote +It wouldn’t be the first time we’ve heard that there were concerns from players about the use of Stimpacks and there’s a reason why; Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. What? You mean, a normal knowledge of timings? Stim packs normally only come into play with a timing attack in TvP. You don't normally see them in other matchups, and it's never something that's 'hard to deal with unless you scout'. They make it sound like you're supposed to somehow scout stim packs and then hope you can put cannons or spine crawlers up in time or something. If you play safe, stim timings are somewhat easy to deal with. However, if you cut some corners, things can be tough. It's not about scouting, though. You can scout that your opponent is not going bio, and then get less sentries for example, but stim isn't something that you need to worry about scouting. It's just a simple knowledge of timing.
Agreed. I also think that Blizzard needs to let the game play out. I don't think there's any need to alter anything unless they have a darn good reason to, but there's certainly no need to nerf things "just because." To quote Jinro--when have you ever wished, "If only stim took longer to research!" vs. Terran? Stim timing pushes, while powerful, have never been close to an "overpowered" problem that required changing in any way, and it's not something that ever really required scouting--it's a timing. They make it sound as if it's, "I'm Protoss, I'm going to expand and get double forge and robo, but OH NO stim timing attack if only I had scouted that and known about it I would have made units."
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i actaully agree with all of david kim's assessments. part of me wishes theyd hurry up with some of the changes. but i guess patience is needed.
ps i don t think its starting rumors that blizzard will probably nerf coli. i mean they implicitly stated they felt that coli and ht aoe were slightly OP. they decided to nerf one and see if that was enough. watching enough gsl/mlg...its probably not and we're likely to see the coli get nerfed.
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On April 05 2011 05:33 Amui wrote:
At lower levels stim is BRUTAL. When I first started playing and I was no good at forcefields I would literally leave my base, pop guardian shield and get stomped by an A-moving stimmed terran bio-ball. I had to go one base colossus or I just died. Good forcefield usage only means that you can afford to get splash units later with the exception of double forge builds. Colossi are the easier of 2 paths to AoE damage to deal with the insane dps density of a stimmed bio-ball.
The biggest tipping point is when medivacs come onto the field. At that point unless you are way ahead in upgrades, you lose to bio-ball if you are still on gateway units.
PvP is quite broken and basically has 3 options. Cheese, a version of 4gate, or 3stalker rush that MIGHT beat a 4wg if you find the probe/pylon. Anything other than this and essentially, you die to a hardcore 4gate.
I totally agreed. I am getting better with force fields, but I still get SMASHED by stim every once and a while. I don't want protoss to become the race "only the higher level players can handle" if they nerf colossi to much. It won't be much fun for new players and will just make people play Terran more.
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On April 05 2011 01:35 Mommas Boy wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2566610#blogI really enjoy reading these. Provides a good perpective of what Blizzard wants to see from the game. Thoughts? Stimpack upgrade research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds. It wouldn’t be the first time we’ve heard that there were concerns from players about the use of Stimpacks and there’s a reason why; Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes.
The problem with stim isn't the timing, the problem with stim is the pure strength of it on both Marauders and Marines.
Stim'd marauders absoloutely decimate buildings better than seige units, even if the opponent knows it's coming, sometimes they'll still take out a tech building in a matter of seconds.
The DPS and movement speed of the units is also very high.
The fact that medivac's heal ability is NOT a researchable ability and that it's so powerful tells me they need to tweak different numbers and timing isn't one of them.
Why not make them faster moving and shooting when stimd but simply not as ridiculously high? Bring it back 10 or 15%?
Sigh
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Sweet. Colossi nerf incoming too.
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Well Protoss is supposed to be strongest, according to blizzard:
Protoss Characteristics
Heavy Hitters
Pound for pound, the protoss field StarCraft II’s strongest and most durable units. That power comes at a price, as their units tend to be costly.
Price is the problem. If you make it so a 200 vs 200 are even on the battle field, you have to reduce costs of all protoss units or they will get destroyed in follow up battles as Zerg and Terran can remax and Protoss can't.
I'd like to see blizzard leave things as is with very different strengths and weaknesses between races rather than every game a TvT type rock paper scissors match up.
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EPT
