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"Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes."
but proxi pylon 3 gate and 4 gate all ins are perfectly fine? give me a F'n break ......
MUCH harder to scout , hardly ANY warning, reinforce right outside your base (do NOT say you should scout because thats basicaly why they nerfed bunker buildtime)
absolute joke.
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On April 05 2011 05:21 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 02:29 entropius wrote:
This approach of "Lategame protoss AoE is too good, so let's nerf templars and see what happens" seems dangerously naive, since it ignores the dynamics of the different matchups as well as the different roles of the two units.
By design, Colossi dominate ground armies and die to air-to-air. Fine; there are some interesting design possibilities there, but it only works that way in PvT. In PvZ and PvP, the trouble is that there is no good air-to-air for them to die to.
In PvT, T needs to get enough vikings to kill the colossi, but not so many that they will fall behind on ground units. This isn't a complete "oh, you overproduced vikings, they're useless and you lose" situation though, because they can land. Then there are interesting positional battles in which the viking user tries to get a good angle on the colossi to snipe them without taking too much stalker fire in return. The protoss can get phoenix and more colossi and contest the air, but then the terran can get thors, and an interesting maneuver game develops wherein the T tries to exploit his longer antiair range to either kill the phoenix or break up the P ball.
HT are used vs. Terran because 1) warpin storms help counter terran dropship play, and 2) colossi are vulnerable to vikings, while shutting down HT with ghosts is not as guaranteed. If a P produces too many colossi the T simply makes vikings and kills them.
The trouble in PvZ is that no such interesting dynamic; the root problem is that corruptors suck ass. They're built vs. colossi, but they're not nearly as good as vikings in that role because they do less DPS (even with corruption!) at less range and cost more, and can't land to help out after the colossi are dead. The corruptor's attributes that make it good at capital ship killing -- high hp and high armor -- are mostly irrelevant. Z must spend much more on corruptors than P spends on colossi to kill them before they decimate Z's ground army, yet even once the colossi are dead, the corruptors are useless and the Z ground army already took a great deal of damage from the colossi.
The range really is huge: vikings can engage colossi without taking much stalker fire in return, and the stalkers must blink far out of position to try to engage them (at which point they run). Corruptors can't do this, *and* kill them more slowly.
Void rays complicate this even more, since they are an air-to-everything unit that actually wins against the corruptor, a dedicated air-to-air unit. This is different than the Phoenix + Colo dynamic in PvT. Phoenix have utility against ground, but not as much as voids; Vikings again can exploit their longer range to play positional games; and Terran have Thors, which are both competent in the ground engagement and absolutely murder Phoenix from a very long way away. Zerg have no such options; the only unit they have that's reasonably competent against the void ray is the hydralisk, and it's not an option because you're not going to get at the voids without melting to colossus fire.
tl;dr the biggest problem with colossus in PvZ is not necessarily that colossi are too good but that zerg air-to-air (corruptors) suck too much. In PvT colossi are kept in check because vikings are tremendously good. But Zerg have to rely on the pretty asstastic corruptor.
PvP is a lollercaust at the moment also. Aside from herp derp 4gate, the only competent air-to-air in the matchup is voids, so of course colossi are going to run rampant.
Not exactly sure how to address the issues; my best suggestion would be:
--Templar amulet reinstated, provides +15 energy
--Colo range buff is +2 instead of +3 *or* colo splash length reduced slightly
(This would leave both units quite viable in pvt)
--Corruptor range increased from 6 to 7 and corruptors lose the attribute "armored"
(These changes are really only relevant to the pvz matchup, and would make the "engage with corruptors first and just tank the stalker fire while shooting colos" tactic more viable, while also letting them soak void fire better)
Another interesting change to the PvZ dynamic would be to buff ultras. It's not as though they see all that much use, except for ZvT when T falls behind on infantry upgrades; a giant beastly expensive tier 3 unit that has melee range, doesn't shoot up, and takes a year to build has to do the only thing it does pretty dominatingly to see much play.
Giving Zerg a *ground* unit that could take on a colossus ball head on would be an interesting dynamic, especially since it would encourage back-teching to immortals to hold the ultras. wow. great post. you actually understand the MU very well. Corruptors do suck. fking horrible. i hate the feeling when you killed off 5 collossus and you have 6 corruptors left watching the stalkers kill of the remnants of your force.
Bring back Scourge 
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On April 05 2011 05:17 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:05 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 05:01 andrewlt wrote:On April 05 2011 04:50 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 04:46 andrewlt wrote:On April 05 2011 04:30 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 04:27 Noocta wrote:On April 05 2011 04:22 Yaotzin wrote:
Do any of the people saying colossi don't require micro actually play P? Running away from viking / corruptor to let stalkers kill them, or move&shoot are pretty basic stuff... All micro is basic stuff. It's speed and accuracy which make up the skill, and colossus micro is the same as any other there. The precedent from BW is, you gotta earn your splash damage. You can't just a-move it around. The game changed though. The power of bioballs in particular necessitates a somewhat simple splash damage mechanism. Zerg got banelings, Protoss got colossus. Both races pretty much require these units to stop nasty stim bioballs. Splash was less important in BW due to the crap pathfinding and bigger unit boxes. For that reason splash has to be easier to get/use in SC2. I don't see how that necessitates such splash damage to be so easy to use. It sounds like dumbing down the game. That's what all the complaints about the colossus boil down to. A big stim bioball is really easy to get and use pretty effectively. The splash damage necessary to stop it, is therefore also easy to get and use pretty effectively. If you made splash much harder to use then Terran would demolish everyone except at the highest level and therefore kill the game. We'll have to disagree there. I think you're focusing too much on perfect balance on the lower levels of the game. I pretty much watch pro games exclusively and to me, it doesn't matter if the game is perfectly balanced if it's boring to watch. And the colossus is as boring as boring can be.
Not at all I don't mind if it's somewhat imba at lower levels. I too only really care about the top levels. The game does require lower levels to stay alive though so it can't be discounted. Removing range would lead to nobody playing Protoss at lower levels, which is death for the game.
It's a mirror, there are no balance concerns. For game variety purposes tanks do a great job of slaughtering a big fat bioball anyway.
There are entertainment concerns. PvP is almost unwatchable currently. You can't have mirror match-ups that are broken from a gameplay perspective.
Yes of course. Not sure what relation this has with the topic though :0 PvP's big issue is the 4gate battles. War of the worlds is a distant second and could well be solved if anyone could get the game past 4gate.
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On April 05 2011 05:15 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:11 Spawkuring wrote:On April 05 2011 05:05 Yaotzin wrote:
A big stim bioball is really easy to get and use pretty effectively. The splash damage necessary to stop it, is therefore also easy to get and use pretty effectively. If you made splash much harder to use then Terran would demolish everyone except at the highest level and therefore kill the game. In that case, the best solution would be to just nerf the bioball so easy-mode splash damage is no longer necessary. We've already seen stim get nerfed slightly to address this, although more changes will be needed. That's incredibly difficult to do. The issue isn't the power of the individual units, rather it's the way all Terran units are ranged, and are now able to clump so closely. If you nerf their individual power then Terran dies horribly at low unit counts. I suppose you could make bigger hit boxes and thus decrease the all around necessity for splash, but that's a huge design change and the whole game would have to be overhauled.
They actually buffed the marine from BW to SC2. From 40 to 45 hp, with another +10 hp upgrade and a baseline roughly 10% increased attack speed. There's no reason that was needed since terran can wall-in until they have critical mass. They just need to buff mech so terran can regain map control afterward.
Giving each side easy to use a-move units to counter each side's easy to use a-move units just leads to a boring game. The power should be in units with interesting abilities with drawbacks.
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Colossus just needs to do less dmg or have way less hp imo. They are just too beefy, mobile and high damaging for a support unit. They are like an easy mode counter to everything earthbound.
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At lower levels stim is BRUTAL. When I first started playing and I was no good at forcefields I would literally leave my base, pop guardian shield and get stomped by an A-moving stimmed terran bio-ball. I had to go one base colossus or I just died. Good forcefield usage only means that you can afford to get splash units later with the exception of double forge builds. Colossi are the easier of 2 paths to AoE damage to deal with the insane dps density of a stimmed bio-ball.
The biggest tipping point is when medivacs come onto the field. At that point unless you are way ahead in upgrades, you lose to bio-ball if you are still on gateway units.
PvP is quite broken and basically has 3 options. Cheese, a version of 4gate, or 3stalker rush that MIGHT beat a 4wg if you find the probe/pylon. Anything other than this and essentially, you die to a hardcore 4gate.
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On April 05 2011 05:24 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 04:55 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 04:52 Spawkuring wrote:On April 05 2011 04:45 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 04:38 Spawkuring wrote:On April 05 2011 04:24 andrewlt wrote:On April 05 2011 03:45 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 03:35 Gigaudas wrote:On April 05 2011 03:27 arterian wrote:
I wish Blizzard would address PvP. Removing warp-in is necessary to do that imo and they won't remove warp-in. PvP just needs some sort of improvement to defender's advantage. A shield damage bonus to cannons, say. I'm sure creative people could think of better ones. Maybe bring back the shield battery! I'd say gateways need an advantage over warpgates even after you research the tech. Changing all gateways into warpgates shouldn't be a no-brainer choice. I'm starting to feel the same way. Initially, Blizzard made warp gates provide a build time discount in order to encourage its use over gateways, No they didn't. They started out by making warpgates, then they made gateways (again) to stop cheeses. Gateways produce slower than warpgates for the same reason: rushes would be too strong otherwise. The game is designed around warpgates, for good or ill. It will never change. What makes you think warp gates will never change? They've already changed a few times regarding research time, so it's not unreasonable to expect it to change again. They've only ever touched the research time to balance rushes - sensible since that's the only reason you research them. They've shown zero inclination to nerf the actual concept in any way. Nerfing the concept seems pretty impossible, but I might imagine increasing the warp-in time from five to 10-15 seconds or so to make Protoss less flexible and require them to plan ahead more. Warping in during a battle rarely enables the opponent to target the warping units and thus the "more damage during warp-in"-disadvantage isnt a true disadvantage. Being able to not spawn at the corresponding building could be advantage enough ... If they changed the warp-in time to something much longer the Khaydarin Amulet might be introduced back into the game IMO.
While this is true, I'd rather them focus on nerfing the AOE damage dealers than nerfing gateway units. I'd even take a colossus nerf if it meant a slight buff to gateway units in some way (charge more accessible, etc.).
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On April 05 2011 05:27 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:15 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 05:11 Spawkuring wrote:On April 05 2011 05:05 Yaotzin wrote:
A big stim bioball is really easy to get and use pretty effectively. The splash damage necessary to stop it, is therefore also easy to get and use pretty effectively. If you made splash much harder to use then Terran would demolish everyone except at the highest level and therefore kill the game. In that case, the best solution would be to just nerf the bioball so easy-mode splash damage is no longer necessary. We've already seen stim get nerfed slightly to address this, although more changes will be needed. That's incredibly difficult to do. The issue isn't the power of the individual units, rather it's the way all Terran units are ranged, and are now able to clump so closely. If you nerf their individual power then Terran dies horribly at low unit counts. I suppose you could make bigger hit boxes and thus decrease the all around necessity for splash, but that's a huge design change and the whole game would have to be overhauled. They actually buffed the marine from BW to SC2. From 40 to 45 hp, with another +10 hp upgrade and a baseline roughly 10% increased attack speed. There's no reason that was needed since terran can wall-in until they have critical mass. They just need to buff mech so terran can regain map control afterward.
Well stim is worse OTOH. And the opponent units are different. Kinda hard to compare.
Giving each side easy to use a-move units to counter each side's easy to use a-move units just leads to a boring game. The power should be in units with interesting abilities with drawbacks.
I agree, I just disagree about where the boringness originates. You want to nerf colossi, but colossi are necessary. Solving the issue requires nerfing the boring old bioball. Which is not easy to do.
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On April 05 2011 05:24 Rabiator wrote:
Warping in during a battle rarely enables the opponent to target the warping units and thus the "more damage during warp-in"-disadvantage isnt a true disadvantage.
In particular it's not a true disadvantage since it's not true. Warping in units don't take more damage during warp-in.
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On April 05 2011 05:24 pureball wrote:
"Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes."
but proxi pylon 3 gate and 4 gate all ins are perfectly fine? give me a F'n break ......
MUCH harder to scout , hardly ANY warning, reinforce right outside your base (do NOT say you should scout because thats basicaly why they nerfed bunker buildtime)
absolute joke.
well dont quite like your wording but agree with the point.
how they can say stuff like that with warpgate variations dominating since the early days of beta is beyond me.
esp when the stim also has huge affects on the ability to defend pushes .. ( how often did we see a T losing to a attack with 5-15 secs left on stim since 1.3?)
also stim pushes were one of the easiest things to scout/expect and defend . not to mention bigger maps already decreasing the timing window a ton...
i dont think its a huge gamebreaking point but the change was a bad one and their reasoning is even worse.
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On April 05 2011 05:38 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:24 Rabiator wrote:On April 05 2011 04:55 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 04:52 Spawkuring wrote:On April 05 2011 04:45 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 04:38 Spawkuring wrote:On April 05 2011 04:24 andrewlt wrote:On April 05 2011 03:45 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 03:35 Gigaudas wrote:On April 05 2011 03:27 arterian wrote:
I wish Blizzard would address PvP. Removing warp-in is necessary to do that imo and they won't remove warp-in. PvP just needs some sort of improvement to defender's advantage. A shield damage bonus to cannons, say. I'm sure creative people could think of better ones. Maybe bring back the shield battery! I'd say gateways need an advantage over warpgates even after you research the tech. Changing all gateways into warpgates shouldn't be a no-brainer choice. I'm starting to feel the same way. Initially, Blizzard made warp gates provide a build time discount in order to encourage its use over gateways, No they didn't. They started out by making warpgates, then they made gateways (again) to stop cheeses. Gateways produce slower than warpgates for the same reason: rushes would be too strong otherwise. The game is designed around warpgates, for good or ill. It will never change. What makes you think warp gates will never change? They've already changed a few times regarding research time, so it's not unreasonable to expect it to change again. They've only ever touched the research time to balance rushes - sensible since that's the only reason you research them. They've shown zero inclination to nerf the actual concept in any way. Nerfing the concept seems pretty impossible, but I might imagine increasing the warp-in time from five to 10-15 seconds or so to make Protoss less flexible and require them to plan ahead more. Warping in during a battle rarely enables the opponent to target the warping units and thus the "more damage during warp-in"-disadvantage isnt a true disadvantage. Being able to not spawn at the corresponding building could be advantage enough ... If they changed the warp-in time to something much longer the Khaydarin Amulet might be introduced back into the game IMO. While this is true, I'd rather them focus on nerfing the AOE damage dealers than nerfing gateway units. I'd even take a colossus nerf if it meant a slight buff to gateway units in some way (charge more accessible, etc.).
Their tier 1 unit balancing is essentially a comedy of errors. They buffed the basic marine, which meant they had to nerf stim. They introduced the marauder, an a-move unit that can wreck stalkers and even kite zealots easily when upgraded. Then they introduced warpgates, which are so much better than gateways so they nerfed the stalkers compared to dragoons. Blink alone can't explain why stalkers cost as much as dragoons but have such inferior stats.
Then they realized protoss is screwed to early stim-pushes and introduced the colossus.
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If you take a look at the current matchups, you can see certain "obvious", outlying problems with some of them.
TvT: This is actually pretty good; I think it's a very dynamic matchup with a lot of possible strategies that can all be used effectively.
ZvZ: With the change to infestors, bigger maps, more common macro games, I think this is going to evolve to become pretty decent as well. Mutas might end up being viable, roach spam isn't the only thing, etc.
PvP: Obviously a shithole because of 4 gate.
ZvP: Bit tough for zerg because of the crappy scouting, difficulty in managing deathballs
PvT: The early game terran dominance to late game toss dominance is still pretty strong; gateway units suck too much and depend on FF to survive too much, while the late game toss deathballs are incredibly strong
TvZ: Scouting is of course an issue, but I think it is not quite as bad as the P matchup. I think a significant issue is the risk/reward lopsidedness of 2 rax bunker rushing. Otherwise, a fairly dynamic and interesting matchup.
If you can solve most of these issues, you can probably leave it alone for a while and it can prosper. Stuff like buffing corruptors, nerfing salvage, T1 ovie speed, and then a combination of buffing gateway units, nerfing warpgates, and then buffing normal gateways (ie gateways have faster production than if you had to warp in, so there's an incentive to keep gateways), would likely be enough to let the game be left alone for a good while.
I'm personally not as much of a fan of nerfs as I am of buffs. What made SC1 awesome was how freaking OP every unit seemed, but how their ridiculous awesomeness could counter each other.
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On April 05 2011 05:48 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:24 pureball wrote:
"Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes."
but proxi pylon 3 gate and 4 gate all ins are perfectly fine? give me a F'n break ......
MUCH harder to scout , hardly ANY warning, reinforce right outside your base (do NOT say you should scout because thats basicaly why they nerfed bunker buildtime)
absolute joke. well dont quite like your wording but agree with the point. how they can say stuff like that with warpgate variations dominating since the early days of beta is beyond me. esp when the stim also has huge affects on the ability to defend pushes .. ( how often did we see a T losing to a attack with 5-15 secs left on stim since 1.3?)
I think personally it could all be solved by just making warpgates cost 100/100, and buffing buildtimes by a few seconds on gateway units. I mean, come on, 2gate was essentially nerfed out of existance on the small maps where it should be a powerful build. Could make Zealots come out like ~3 seconds faster, same with sentries.
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On April 05 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:48 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 05 2011 05:24 pureball wrote:
"Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes."
but proxi pylon 3 gate and 4 gate all ins are perfectly fine? give me a F'n break ......
MUCH harder to scout , hardly ANY warning, reinforce right outside your base (do NOT say you should scout because thats basicaly why they nerfed bunker buildtime)
absolute joke. well dont quite like your wording but agree with the point. how they can say stuff like that with warpgate variations dominating since the early days of beta is beyond me. esp when the stim also has huge affects on the ability to defend pushes .. ( how often did we see a T losing to a attack with 5-15 secs left on stim since 1.3?) I think personally it could all be solved by just making warpgates cost 100/100, and buffing buildtimes by a few seconds on gateway units. I mean, come on, 2gate was essentially nerfed out of existance on the small maps where it should be a powerful build. Could make Zealots come out like ~3 seconds faster, same with sentries.
well if we talk about warpgates i still like the "introduce 2nd lvl warpgate research, 1st lvl research only allows pylon warpins in X radius around a nexus or warpgate" the most since its easy to implement and has zero effects on the defensive&production power or mid/lategame warpgate power.
but there are countless other suggestions. and longterm warpgates should get reworked anyways to make it an actual decision (and blizz keeps blabbering about how they want that all the time) ,make gateways more then just a tiny stepping stone 1-3 units/game get build and introduce some dynamics.
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On April 05 2011 05:56 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 05 2011 05:48 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 05 2011 05:24 pureball wrote:
"Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes."
but proxi pylon 3 gate and 4 gate all ins are perfectly fine? give me a F'n break ......
MUCH harder to scout , hardly ANY warning, reinforce right outside your base (do NOT say you should scout because thats basicaly why they nerfed bunker buildtime)
absolute joke. well dont quite like your wording but agree with the point. how they can say stuff like that with warpgate variations dominating since the early days of beta is beyond me. esp when the stim also has huge affects on the ability to defend pushes .. ( how often did we see a T losing to a attack with 5-15 secs left on stim since 1.3?) I think personally it could all be solved by just making warpgates cost 100/100, and buffing buildtimes by a few seconds on gateway units. I mean, come on, 2gate was essentially nerfed out of existance on the small maps where it should be a powerful build. Could make Zealots come out like ~3 seconds faster, same with sentries. but there are countless other suggestions. and longterm warpgates should get reworked anyways to make it an actual decision (and blizz keeps blabbering about how they want that all the time) ,make gateways more then just a tiny stepping stone 1-3 units/game get build and introduce some dynamics.
It'd be kinda cool if Gateways would be better than Warp Gates defensively, but I really don't think Blizzard will tweak that stuff all that much.
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On April 05 2011 05:51 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 05 2011 05:24 Rabiator wrote:On April 05 2011 04:55 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 04:52 Spawkuring wrote:On April 05 2011 04:45 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 04:38 Spawkuring wrote:On April 05 2011 04:24 andrewlt wrote:On April 05 2011 03:45 Yaotzin wrote:On April 05 2011 03:35 Gigaudas wrote:
[quote]
Removing warp-in is necessary to do that imo and they won't remove warp-in.
PvP just needs some sort of improvement to defender's advantage. A shield damage bonus to cannons, say. I'm sure creative people could think of better ones. Maybe bring back the shield battery! I'd say gateways need an advantage over warpgates even after you research the tech. Changing all gateways into warpgates shouldn't be a no-brainer choice. I'm starting to feel the same way. Initially, Blizzard made warp gates provide a build time discount in order to encourage its use over gateways, No they didn't. They started out by making warpgates, then they made gateways (again) to stop cheeses. Gateways produce slower than warpgates for the same reason: rushes would be too strong otherwise. The game is designed around warpgates, for good or ill. It will never change. What makes you think warp gates will never change? They've already changed a few times regarding research time, so it's not unreasonable to expect it to change again. They've only ever touched the research time to balance rushes - sensible since that's the only reason you research them. They've shown zero inclination to nerf the actual concept in any way. Nerfing the concept seems pretty impossible, but I might imagine increasing the warp-in time from five to 10-15 seconds or so to make Protoss less flexible and require them to plan ahead more. Warping in during a battle rarely enables the opponent to target the warping units and thus the "more damage during warp-in"-disadvantage isnt a true disadvantage. Being able to not spawn at the corresponding building could be advantage enough ... If they changed the warp-in time to something much longer the Khaydarin Amulet might be introduced back into the game IMO. While this is true, I'd rather them focus on nerfing the AOE damage dealers than nerfing gateway units. I'd even take a colossus nerf if it meant a slight buff to gateway units in some way (charge more accessible, etc.). Their tier 1 unit balancing is essentially a comedy of errors. They buffed the basic marine, which meant they had to nerf stim. They introduced the marauder, an a-move unit that can wreck stalkers and even kite zealots easily when upgraded. Then they introduced warpgates, which are so much better than gateways so they nerfed the stalkers compared to dragoons. Blink alone can't explain why stalkers cost as much as dragoons but have such inferior stats. Then they realized protoss is screwed to early stim-pushes and introduced the colossus.
Except all these things were in since alpha so all those "then"s are completely inaccurate. Unless you somehow were in on Blizzard's SC2 design meetings, which I somehow doubt.
Btw, stalkers dominate in PvZ, PvP and are very common in PvT so I don't think them having inferior stats to dragoons is much of a problem. If anything they're headed for a nerf.
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On April 05 2011 05:24 pureball wrote:
"Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes."
but proxi pylon 3 gate and 4 gate all ins are perfectly fine? give me a F'n break ......
MUCH harder to scout , hardly ANY warning, reinforce right outside your base (do NOT say you should scout because thats basicaly why they nerfed bunker buildtime)
absolute joke.
Dustin browder's son switched from terran to protoss, thats all. So calm down 
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On April 05 2011 05:56 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
well if we talk about warpgates i still like the "introduce 2nd lvl warpgate research, 1st lvl research only allows pylon warpins in X radius around a nexus or warpgate" the most since its easy to implement and has zero effects on the defensive&production power or mid/lategame warpgate power.
This is good
but there are countless other suggestions. and longterm warpgates should get reworked anyways to make it an actual decision (and blizz keeps blabbering about how they want that all the time) ,make gateways more then just a tiny stepping stone 1-3 units/game get build and introduce some dynamics.
They won't rework them gateways are just an anti-cheese building /mutters. They aren't meant to be useful. Same with stuff like conc shell. Not everything is supposed to be a choice, some tech is there simply to slow things down.
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On April 05 2011 06:00 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:56 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 05 2011 05:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 05 2011 05:48 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On April 05 2011 05:24 pureball wrote:
"Stimpack timing pushes by terran players can be extremely difficult for opponents to stop without employing effective scouting. We wanted these types of pushes to come slightly later in order to provide more time for opponents to prepare for these attacks and to potentially get scouting units together to effectively scout for these types of pushes."
but proxi pylon 3 gate and 4 gate all ins are perfectly fine? give me a F'n break ......
MUCH harder to scout , hardly ANY warning, reinforce right outside your base (do NOT say you should scout because thats basicaly why they nerfed bunker buildtime)
absolute joke. well dont quite like your wording but agree with the point. how they can say stuff like that with warpgate variations dominating since the early days of beta is beyond me. esp when the stim also has huge affects on the ability to defend pushes .. ( how often did we see a T losing to a attack with 5-15 secs left on stim since 1.3?) I think personally it could all be solved by just making warpgates cost 100/100, and buffing buildtimes by a few seconds on gateway units. I mean, come on, 2gate was essentially nerfed out of existance on the small maps where it should be a powerful build. Could make Zealots come out like ~3 seconds faster, same with sentries. but there are countless other suggestions. and longterm warpgates should get reworked anyways to make it an actual decision (and blizz keeps blabbering about how they want that all the time) ,make gateways more then just a tiny stepping stone 1-3 units/game get build and introduce some dynamics. It'd be kinda cool if Gateways would be better than Warp Gates defensively, but I really don't think Blizzard will tweak that stuff all that much.
yeah obviously a rework of the mechanics is impossible to do now since it would change way too much.
but i really really hope that they change a TON in the expansions. there is so much just badly designed/implemented that could vastly improve the game if blizz takes a step back and has the balls to rework it.
On April 05 2011 06:05 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 05:56 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
well if we talk about warpgates i still like the "introduce 2nd lvl warpgate research, 1st lvl research only allows pylon warpins in X radius around a nexus or warpgate" the most since its easy to implement and has zero effects on the defensive&production power or mid/lategame warpgate power.
This is good Show nested quote +
but there are countless other suggestions. and longterm warpgates should get reworked anyways to make it an actual decision (and blizz keeps blabbering about how they want that all the time) ,make gateways more then just a tiny stepping stone 1-3 units/game get build and introduce some dynamics.
They won't rework them gateways are just an anti-cheese building /mutters. They aren't meant to be useful. Same with stuff like conc shell. Not everything is supposed to be a choice, some tech is there simply to slow things down.
if you like the suggestion then spread it around. it could fix so many things 
and i disagree. almost evrything is a choice. even concshells are totally optional outside of standart tvp and esp now with the stim change you see people favoring a faster stim over shells as the first research quite often again.
gateways could be much more. give em a specific role past earlygame, make them the stable production and make warpgates a choice etc.
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On April 05 2011 05:26 Yaotzin wrote:
Yes of course. Not sure what relation this has with the topic though :0 PvP's big issue is the 4gate battles. War of the worlds is a distant second and could well be solved if anyone could get the game past 4gate.
I'd suggest that you watch + Show Spoiler [MLG spoilers] +dignitas.Naniwa vs ROOT.Kiwikaki in the finals. Some really good use of Blink Stalkers in a couple of the games
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