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On March 22 2011 00:47 IdrA wrote:
you have to be able to think about the game in a certain way for practice to be productive.
otherwise you'll keep doing sentry zealot pushes no matter how many times your opponent builds roaches.
How do you mean? Do you mean like the outside the box thinking and problem solving? (I.E.: Screw 'Toss and their FF, how do I get around it/nullify that advantage) Or is it more standard "Well, that didn't work, let me try X build I saw Y player do?"
Also, how do you come up with builds? What kind of process do you use?
Thanks, IdrA. Big fan, rock the N.A.S.L.
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On March 22 2011 00:47 IdrA wrote:
you have to be able to think about the game in a certain way for practice to be productive.
otherwise you'll keep doing sentry zealot pushes no matter how many times your opponent builds roaches.
Talkin about HuK there IdrA ? :D
If you work hard enugh you will get good. Thats it.
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i think its a mix of both
i have friends who have played more games than i have and are worse than i am while i've only played a few hundred games and are a lot more better than they are (:
but it might be that they have less RTS experience while I've played sc1 on and off from grade 3 to 9, but the only thing I did was custom games so i guess that helps a lot with my micro  never played melee games in sc1 btw xD
if youre wondering im a 3k diamond zerg which i think is pretty high diamond (:
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On March 22 2011 00:47 IdrA wrote:
you have to be able to think about the game in a certain way for practice to be productive.
otherwise you'll keep doing sentry zealot pushes no matter how many times your opponent builds roaches.
Well said. I've started keeping a list of my stupid choices that lose me games -- it's already helped a lot with focusing my thinking about my practice.
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I think it can only help your improvement if you convince yourself that natural talent and ESPECIALLY balance are not significant factors in the outcome of your matches.
The decision of whether or not to play should be based on whether or not you enjoy the game.
I think these things are more important than the precise extent to which talent actually influences people's ability to play the game.
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I think hand dexterity plays a big role, and while you can improve with practice just like you can improve at any sport in the world with practice, you'll always be at a disadvantage.
95% practice
5% talent
People that have both are gonna be the best players. I think it's hard even for pros to gauge how much talent plays a role because its not something u can easily quantify and compare to other people. You can only judge how much practice u've put into the game and how u've improved over time.
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IMO it's almost entirely training that differentiates players like oGsMC from random NA/EU/Korean professional Protosses. Only by a regimented practice schedule with a variety of partners with a variety of styles can you prepare smooth builds like that and be able to execute them that well.
Up until that point, I think it's a combination of practice, intelligence, and a natural affinity for the game. Say what you want about being able to "learn" all aspects of the game, but some people definitely do pick it up more quickly than others, and some people (me) have been playing off and on since the beginning of Brood War and are still D+ material.
Mental quickness, toughness, and awareness are things you can hone, but not really be taught. Nerves are another thing that affect some people more than others, but practice and experience help alleviate those problems.
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On March 22 2011 01:28 ZasZ. wrote:
IMO it's almost entirely training that differentiates players like oGsMC from random NA/EU/Korean professional Protosses. Only by a regimented practice schedule with a variety of partners with a variety of styles can you prepare smooth builds like that and be able to execute them that well.
I'm sure theres plenty of korean professionals that play just as much as oGsMC. Why aren't all the other players from the oGs house dominating as much as he?
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i think it also has to do with your computer on a certain level. when i first started playing sc2 i had a SHITTY computer, (10fps at the most) and i was placed in bronze league, just because of the slowness that the game was playing on, and the non existant micro, then as soon as i got a new computer, i was placed in diamond in under 50 games.
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On March 22 2011 00:53 Crackensan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 00:47 IdrA wrote:
you have to be able to think about the game in a certain way for practice to be productive.
otherwise you'll keep doing sentry zealot pushes no matter how many times your opponent builds roaches. How do you mean? Do you mean like the outside the box thinking and problem solving? (I.E.: Screw 'Toss and their FF, how do I get around it/nullify that advantage) Or is it more standard "Well, that didn't work, let me try X build I saw Y player do?" Also, how do you come up with builds? What kind of process do you use? Thanks, IdrA. Big fan, rock the N.A.S.L.
I think that's pretty much what he meant. Basically, say you're going with a quick tech to a Brood Lord/Ultralisk combo to combat a four gate. Clearly, this won't work. The bad way to go about practicing is to drill the BL/Ultra combo so many times that you've memorized it well enough to win against 1/20 four gates, which leads you to think you'll eventually be able to beat them all. In reality, you need to completely change your perspective of a build to counter a four gate and start from scratch because a BL/Ultra combo is fundamentally not the right way to combat it.
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I hope someone posted the national geographic episode where they injected progamers with radioative isotopes to track brain activation while playing.
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This game as well as any game that is non physically limiting (such as power lifting) is truly not based entirely on hard work or genetic traits. Think of it this way, No one is born with 450 APM the first time they touch the game, that just doesn't happen, However the way a person thinks (which hugely differs from person to person can have a large impact on the game) If you take a look at the most world renowned pro players all of them have a few things in common.
First = they train for about 6 hours a day. This game and being able to play fast and effectively is largely due to you playing enough to create neurological pathways in your brains to effectively decrease the amount of time between a thought of what you need to be doing and the action of doing it. Through this practice you can make tasks that seemed unlikely to impossible completely plausible if not even simple. An example of this is when first learning to play, preforming actions without looking at the producing structure you were using seemed nearly impossible but, once you form the pathways it is not that difficult to be making drones at the same time as repositioning your army while simultaneously injecting 5 hatcheries across the map.
Secondly (this is where the truly outstanding players differ themselves from the people who just have straight practice on their side) = This is the ability to think quickly and strategically while in game. Ex. You see 12 bunkers at the front of a T base with a PF right behind it. Are you able to compose a way to handle it in a fashion that your opponent has not seen and thus will not be prepared for or are you gonna A click banes at it and hope the tank splash doesn't decimate you.
In my opinion it is a combination of both hard work and gift. Much like Micro and Macro the Proverbial Ying and Yang of your game play. Just one might win your a few games but, you simply cannot beat a player that is sound at both with just one. (unless you vastly out skill him in that one) At the top tier of play , top diamond up into masters, this gap in "I totally decimate my opponent in macro or micro", is virtually non existent because everyone has trained so hard to bring them both up to par.
In conclusion, Without working hard you will never achieve anything in starcraft but, if you are a player who works hard but only tries to use the "Standard Builds" that people are using every other game you will also be bad... You must think outside the box and come up with non-standard effective play. People complain about "cheese" so much in this game it's a little disheartening. This is a strategy game! Why not try to use your head to come up with some fun strategic play that is completely "non-standard" Because if you do come up with something that your Opponent hasn't seen 10 thousand times, such as Tank Stem marine. You will dominate that race for the next 2 weeks until someone can come up with something to stop it. Less QQ about cheese please, because if you cant stop it, It isn't his fault for trying to win, It's your fault for not reacting properly.
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im 100% convinced you need both - if it was only trained the players in the lower leagues would exclusively be the new ones
if you lack of the basic understanding and thinking necessary for an rts game you wont become any good
just like in real sports
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On March 21 2011 22:37 hoby2000 wrote:
If you believe that people are just "natural" at some things, then you probably believe in a deity.
Why do I say this? Because if you believe in "natural" talent, you don't understand the world around you. WHAT the...? How on earth did you correlate belief in a diety with belief in a genetic advantage over someone else? What nonsense.
It's impossible for everyone to have the same potential "best" skill level at Starcraft (or anything, for that matter). We're all different! Training and practice (and doing those effectively and with dedication) is going to be the biggest factor in success, yes, but at some point natural talent (or lack thereof) is going to be a deciding factor.
My mum is NEVER going to be good at music. Ever. And she never could have been. She could train for the rest of her life at it and she will still be bad; she could practice all day every day, she could receive the best training and coaching money could buy, she could obsess over it on internet forums, and she could think about it all the time..... but she's still going to wiggle her butt out of time from everyone else if she goes to aerobics class, and sing her favourite songs way out of tune.
Fortunately in this case, Starcraft requires a whole swathe of abilities and skills, so any disadvantage in one particular area is unlikely to be too much of a hindrance overall. Practice and hard work is going to get you a long, long way - but it's not everything.
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to be honest i think i could compete with the best if i put in the time. i play like 3 games a week, if that, and am near the top of the ladder. if i put in 8 hours a day there is no reason i couldn't improve massively. so to answer your question if anyone can. yes i believe if someone had the best of the best equipment and put hard work and dedication in to it they could definitely become great. however i would stop short and say that they probably wont become code S any time soon. Those players have been playing for well over 10 years now. SC1 has made them macro monsters. Also I think people can naturally pick up the game more quickly than others so the time and training it would take one person to become a top player would vary widely.
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it's 10% natural and 90% trained. But as everybody is able to mass traning we can assume it's almost the contrary at top level.
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On March 22 2011 00:53 Crackensan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 00:47 IdrA wrote:
you have to be able to think about the game in a certain way for practice to be productive.
otherwise you'll keep doing sentry zealot pushes no matter how many times your opponent builds roaches. How do you mean? Do you mean like the outside the box thinking and problem solving? (I.E.: Screw 'Toss and their FF, how do I get around it/nullify that advantage) Or is it more standard "Well, that didn't work, let me try X build I saw Y player do?"
I think it's a more general statement on practice quality.
If you look at different disciplines, including sports, music performance, chess, etc. an important concept is that of focused practice - not just going through the repetitions but also staying mentally engaged in practice, making connections between repetitions and constantly tweaking ideas both in the mind and in subsequent actions.
This type of mental state is where learning actually occurs, and people who are successful at their respective disciplines tend to spend the majority of their practice time in this mode. Personality type is a huge factor in this, though I do believe that this type of thing can be learned. The thing is, someone who starts off with the right mindset for learning will display skill/talent earlier, which leads to better access to high quality coaching/competition, at which point it will be quite hard to catch up.
Things can become complicated when a complex discipline is mature: you can have some mental attitudes that are favourable to learning some more fundamental skills, while a different mindset is needed for success at the highest level. This can result in some players peaking out in skill level, while the other type requires more extensive coaching and practice in fundamentals to be successful.
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Probably mostly practice. However I do feel that if I started playing rts right now I would never be good. I suck at pretty much every game I try, especially those that are mechanically demanding. But I've been playing starcraft for 11 years so I have that 300 apm mechanic ingrained in me.
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Ill agree with the masses and say that training seperates the gods from the greats. But that doesn't mean natural talent doesn't come to play in here. I have been playing video games all my life. FPS, MMO, RPG, RTS, name a popular game and I've played/ beat em all. Every game I've picked up I've been able to beat and be good at with no problem at all. I barely play starcraft, but when I do I win quite often just because I have a natural niche for gaming.
I think people do have natural abilities that make them good at games/ things in general, but that can only bring you so far (diamond/ low masters) After that point it all depends on how much work you put in to it.
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hey i started at bonze.... now i am a Diamond 3000+
some of it depends on how much you want to dedicate to it
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EPT
