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So I caught the VODs of Tyler v Jinro at PAX, and I can't help but to be excited. Tyler played AMAZING. I think Tyler is really starting to hit his stride, and he's really starting to look scary good.
That double forge style he does is super strong, and his timing in those games was phenomenal. I was digging that weird timing with this third gate to get it and the expansion up really fast, and it seem really strong. I'm guessing it's aim is to defend against a possible stim timing attack while getting his expo up safely, though if someone knows for sure I'd love to know ^^.
Tyler's unit control is pretty spot on in these games too, and in game 2 of the series, that aggressive colossus/blink timing looked so sick. Jinro played it pretty well, and Tyler still looked way scary with his micro at the choke. I can't help but to feel that if his macro didn't slip there
+ Show Spoiler +Tyler might have 3-0'd Jinro
On Game 3 I was really digging the 2 gate blink into expand and I was really impressed with the follow through. Game 4 I thought that the pylon army cut timing was super sick too, and couldn't believe how effective it was.
So, if you haven't checked the game's out already, check them out! I can't find actual reps, but day9 has the VODs out on his blip. They're so worth the watch. Tyler and Jinro are both looking solid. Usually as a zerg I can't help but to be a protoss anti-fan, but Tyler's just looking scary good. I feel like we're seeing the same Tyler we were seeing in TSL2, just rock solid builds with great timing, and great mechanics. NonY's gonna crush some nerd's dreams in TSL3! 'Merrica!
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wtf he won ladder games ? siick.
User was warned for this post
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On March 11 2011 18:17 Naniwa wrote:
wtf he won ladder games ? siick.
Huh? It's from a liquid showmatch at PAX?
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Jinro looked like he had massive latency problems, which is sooo bad if you play MMM vs Protoss.
Very impressive play by Tyler nonetheless 
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showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
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Tyler has always been one of the most talented Starcraft gamers out there, since BW he has always been on top for pure talent. When he's focused and has prepared well for matches he is nearly unbeatable, however he's a busy man and often he doesn't get mentally prepared for his matches, and ends up making mistakes. Raw talent mechanics and strategy wise, however, Tyler is the best of the best.
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They weren't playing at PAX, but the finals will be casted there by Day9 and Husky.
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I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
If he goes for a more passive style he should've gone mech. With that bio ball he needed to do more multi-pronged attacks and not just engage Tylers army directly. (Even though it looked hard to do on Crevasse with Tyler going for so early blink and spotting for drops)
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Tyler has been doing double forge for a long time. I think he mentioned some of the followups to the opener in one of the SOTG a month or more ago, blink was one of them. I think for alot of people this is new but if you are a protoss you have to get all of Nony's replays. He's a genius, Just needs to add on those gateways but I guess he's a perfectionist of sorts (if he cant support them with perfect macro dont get them). I've personally played double forge in about 15 or 20 PvT's and I feel it's very weak to very fast terran expos -> barracks explode, as it hits before colossus and while the terran economy is quite stronger than yours (delayed expansion due to the 3gate robo, despite 5sentries). I practiced this build quite a bit on ladder, and lost in a clan tryout to fast expo barracks explode twice in a row. I knew the build wasnt bad, and it worked against alot of styles, it just made me look like a noob. (as even day9 was taken far aback by the third gateway) You still expand at a reasonable time due to 5 sentries, and get the gateway to survive any 1base all-in (and obs). It's a very good opener but I still feel its quite weak to strong 2base T timing attacks. Ones that hit before 2/2 and before colossus. But if a T is playing quite standard, and for the later stages like Jinro was (double expos, quick third, earlier starport + factory) it's devastating as nothing can touch you before 2/2, and thats when your gateway units become quite strong.
If you are wondering the build, its gateway robo, add on 2 gateways (third gateway late), for units, you can go zealot sentry zealot, you expand off 5 sentries. Drop nexus, make units, when you can afford two forges get them. When you have more than 17 probes at your expansion minerals add a gas, and similarly when it goes back up to 17/18 add 4th gas, save chrono when the nexus pops for forges. Add 4th and 5th gateway after +1/+1 starts. Fast colossus means you have to take your third gas as the nexus finishes, but leaves you quite vulnerable.
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On March 11 2011 20:32 MaRkieMarK wrote:
I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
I agree with this. I think another best of five could potentially have opposite results, because both players are such monsters.
On a different note, I had been fiddling around with throwing down one forge earlier and earlier to get upgrades, and now I'm going to be trying to sneak in a second forge early on, thanks to Tyler He definitely shows versatility, which is refreshing.
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the double forge tactic is pretty sick. however i find it might be susceptible to attacks after u get the upgrades going and have less army, so i guess good scouting is really needed
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On March 11 2011 20:40 dc302 wrote:
the double forge tactic is pretty sick. however i find it might be susceptible to attacks after u get the upgrades going and have less army, so i guess good scouting is really needed
yep barracks explodes really hurt the build I feel as I said in my post. Maps like xel'naga you can survive as you can hold the chokes with FF and cannons. I almost always put two cannons at my natural nexus (or further up by choke on xel naga) because you really have to survive early on for 3/3 to be effective. 1/1 is not that important, 2/2 IS critically important, 3/3 is icing on the cake.
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very interesting games, though I would reiterate the notion that Jinro was dealing with some latency issues, playing from Korea. He found himself in some bad positions due to wandering too far and not reacting in time with force fields during a couple of the games. Wasn't exactly ecstatic with the dynamic of the casters however, without wanting to expand upon that..
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Spoilers dude ><
Anyway, I feel a lot of it is because:
a) Jinro hates TvP and has little confidence in the matchup. This affects his play, probably.
b) Jinro's 1 rax FE is actually not a good build. I know this because he loses a lot with it, and so do I! On Terminus RE it's probably a good build (probably), but 1 rax FE and a lot of the variations of it are kinda balls imo. I dunno, I suppose jinro knows something about this game that I don't (most likely!), but I feel this is a bad build (is there such a thing as a good build in this mu ><)
The 1 rax FE is sort of bad because it reacts poorly to a lot of Protoss strategies, and it's near instant BO lose against 1 gate FE (The protoss has a choice of 2 extremely dangerous builds and you can only counter one of them. Either way, his collosus should be out so early it's almost unpunishable). You lose out on a lot of potential early pressure, and you'll hardly BO win while using it. TvP has a lot of this sort of thing, a BO which happens to be really strong against a certain set of builds and very bad against others. For example, a build with late observers will struggle against a cloaked banshee. DT's are DT's. 2/1/1 openings with later expansions, kind of like SjoW and QXC's aggro and harassment styles are quite vulnerable to phoenix openings. Phoenix openings, especially the really quick ones, can be vulnerable to all-ins and strong rax aggression, or if he gets ghosts unreasonably early for some reason.
But 1 rax FE doesn't seem to 'win' against anything except maybe stupid void ray play. The macro advantage you gain is counteracted by the Protoss having freedom to do what he wants and maintain a strong tech advantage. Take their game one. Tyler does a 3gate robo expansion. This SHOULD be behind against what jinro is doing, in theory, but there is no point in that game where jinro's superior economy can be brought to bear against Tyler. Perhaps there was some sort of macro mistake on jinro's part, but despite having what should theoretically be a massive macro advantage through his significantly faster 2nd and 3rd bases, he gets steamrolled.
Game 2, jinro should have lost. Tyler floating 2k, a problem easily solved by buildign some fucking gateways! Rawrgh!
Game 3, again, Jinro cannot pressure a really vulnerable build, althoguh I feel Tyler cut so many corners because he knows how impotent 1rax FE is against a handful of sentries.
Game 4 could have gone either way. Hard to tell because Jinro lost because of his bunker repair fuck up. Who knows?
I've learned a lot of this through trying this build almost every TvP I play (except xel naga and it's huge fuck-off natural, where I just rush cloaked banshees, expand, get about 6 tanks out and push, and pray to christ he doesn't have chargelots out yet because that's like the only thing that stops it. Well, most of the time) and losing to solid Macro protosses who just go "well, thanks for your absolute lack of pressure for, oh, about 11 minutes. I'ma just do the fuck I want". And then you get to lategame TvP which is extremely tough.
I dunno though. This is just what I'm feeling so far. Perhaps I'm wrong?
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Why are people trying to downplay some great games? Just because Jinro lost doesn't somehow magically mean he's bad, the post is about how great NonY's play is. Why downplay it and just say "jinro didn't play to his potential". Regardless of if he did or not, Tyler played amazing.
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Tyler's timing is just so amazing.
Can't wait to see him in the NASL.
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I'm not saying Tyler didn't play amazing though, btw.
He totally fucking did (except game 2's 2k mineral float ofc).
Just commenting on jinros play as a fellow Terran player.
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Are there VoDs/Streams of the game?
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They are on Day 9's channel, I believe.
There is a post in the SC2 tourney section if you're too lazy to type youtube into your address bar.
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On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
500$ goes to the winner of the tournament, about as much as you've made in your starcraft career
you're derailing this thread as Tyler did play brilliantly, showing hes just as strong of a player he was in bw
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I think Tyler's timings are the best in the game, or at least of those that i notice. Things like +1/+1 finishing as soon as the twilight finishes as well.
The double forge can be really hard if a terran decides to push out early with mmm, and catches you before the first ups finish. It's a lot of fun to see the 2xforge work, but I think phoenix colossus is just a simpler way of dealing with mmm.
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On March 11 2011 21:48 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. 500$ goes to the winner of the tournament, about as much as you've made in your starcraft career you're derailing this thread as Tyler did play brilliantly, showing hes just as strong of a player he was in bw
Oh Snap Lol!!!
Anyways Tylers had this amazing fucking game sense since BroodWar. Anyone who didnt think nony would do well in sc2 is a fool i tell you!! Nony is incredible and he will be my main man to root for in TSL3
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I don't get that. People say "well, X is not comfortable with that match-up, so you can't use that to judge his skill". But what is skill if not doing well in-game?
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On March 11 2011 18:17 Naniwa wrote:
wtf he won ladder games ? siick.
No idea why people don't hate on you for being so bm all the time
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On March 11 2011 18:17 Naniwa wrote:
wtf he won ladder games ? siick.
oh Nani, you so random ^___^
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i'd love to get those replays :/
nony is just a fantastic player..the way he thinks about the game is absolutely unique
i could watch him analyse IEM replays 24/7 :D
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It was really exciting to see Tylers play in this series, if he keeps this up he's gonna be a force in the TSL :D.
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I wish Nazgul was playing in this Liquid "tournament/showmatch." Show the dark horse of TL some love people! That aside, Tyler's style is amazing and I'm glad he decided to prepare hard for this series, rather than just trying to coast along with it. This is a good sign for TSL/MLG.
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Look at the 3 most recent tournaments:
GSTL PvT: 14-4
GSL PvT: 24-15
IEM PvT: 17-9
Total PvT: 55-28
I don't want to take anything away from Tyler but I personally feld like Jinro played alot better. The PvT matchup is just so incredibly broken at the moment in favour of Protoss.
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I really hate the collusus and was borderline depresses when I heard of the amulet nerf.
Too bummed to play I tuned into Tylers stream and he gave a little explanation of how much better two forge is with you know, damage dealers who benefit from the upgrades. While I still don't like the fragility of the collusus when facing reactor viking numbers, I'm excited to try it and see it done well by the man himself.
So I will definitely be studying these VODs when I get the time and trying to switch my play style. Thanks for the post.
P.S. later on the stream, we learned that ferrets are awesome.
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I really loved placing the pylons in the back to distract the arm in game 4.
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On March 11 2011 20:45 iaguz wrote:
Spoilers dude ><
Anyway, I feel a lot of it is because:
a) Jinro hates TvP and has little confidence in the matchup. This affects his play, probably.
b) Jinro's 1 rax FE is actually not a good build. I know this because he loses a lot with it, and so do I! On Terminus RE it's probably a good build (probably), but 1 rax FE and a lot of the variations of it are kinda balls imo. I dunno, I suppose jinro knows something about this game that I don't (most likely!), but I feel this is a bad build (is there such a thing as a good build in this mu ><)
The 1 rax FE is sort of bad because it reacts poorly to a lot of Protoss strategies, and it's near instant BO lose against 1 gate FE (The protoss has a choice of 2 extremely dangerous builds and you can only counter one of them. Either way, his collosus should be out so early it's almost unpunishable). You lose out on a lot of potential early pressure, and you'll hardly BO win while using it. TvP has a lot of this sort of thing, a BO which happens to be really strong against a certain set of builds and very bad against others. For example, a build with late observers will struggle against a cloaked banshee. DT's are DT's. 2/1/1 openings with later expansions, kind of like SjoW and QXC's aggro and harassment styles are quite vulnerable to phoenix openings. Phoenix openings, especially the really quick ones, can be vulnerable to all-ins and strong rax aggression, or if he gets ghosts unreasonably early for some reason.
But 1 rax FE doesn't seem to 'win' against anything except maybe stupid void ray play. The macro advantage you gain is counteracted by the Protoss having freedom to do what he wants and maintain a strong tech advantage. Take their game one. Tyler does a 3gate robo expansion. This SHOULD be behind against what jinro is doing, in theory, but there is no point in that game where jinro's superior economy can be brought to bear against Tyler. Perhaps there was some sort of macro mistake on jinro's part, but despite having what should theoretically be a massive macro advantage through his significantly faster 2nd and 3rd bases, he gets steamrolled.
Game 2, jinro should have lost. Tyler floating 2k, a problem easily solved by buildign some fucking gateways! Rawrgh!
Game 3, again, Jinro cannot pressure a really vulnerable build, althoguh I feel Tyler cut so many corners because he knows how impotent 1rax FE is against a handful of sentries.
Game 4 could have gone either way. Hard to tell because Jinro lost because of his bunker repair fuck up. Who knows?
I've learned a lot of this through trying this build almost every TvP I play (except xel naga and it's huge fuck-off natural, where I just rush cloaked banshees, expand, get about 6 tanks out and push, and pray to christ he doesn't have chargelots out yet because that's like the only thing that stops it. Well, most of the time) and losing to solid Macro protosses who just go "well, thanks for your absolute lack of pressure for, oh, about 11 minutes. I'ma just do the fuck I want". And then you get to lategame TvP which is extremely tough.
I dunno though. This is just what I'm feeling so far. Perhaps I'm wrong?
No the 1 rax FE is not that good a bo, but comeon. Is there any good tvp bos? 1/1/1 is not that good, as the terran player gets a lot behind in economy, and the build simply relies on the protoss to reposnd pretty badly to the harass (either medic harass or banshee typically). I believe players like Select and perhaps sjow have better tvp than Jinro as they are better at dropping, which is not jinros strong side. But anyway when toss gets even better at responding to drops Sjow and Select will have their problems as well in this MU.
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On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
It better be serious when the prize pool is 500 dollars. The winner of Tyler vs Jinro and TLO vs Haypro will play each other in a showmatch at PAX East for 500 dollars.
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I laughed when he double expanded with just 2 gate Blink. Just the idea of it was silly but great. Tyler does unorthodox builds but are well thought and executed well. Real fun to watch..
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Beautiful play by tyler, it could have been 3-0 tho.
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lol at nani being BM to a fellow brotoss -.-
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Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues or had to stay up late etc, every game in that series contained an amazing build from tyler with beautiful execution. I was a huge fan in bw but not so much in sc2, but right now I'm just dying to see more of his protoss. T_T
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Does anyone else feel like the game is shifting towards Protoss figuring out how to deal with MMM so effectively that it is no longer a viable option for Terran? I can only speak from my own experience (which is only 3.3k diamond) but it seems like going mass bio is met simply by getting completely crushed. I am seeing the same trend in higher levels of play and in the GSL. I think the Terran thinktank needs to get together and come up with some sort of midgame transition out of bio because it looks like Protoss have the build solved.
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love tylers play and every second of it. i think there was another thread where i said this already but it was a simply amazing watch.
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United States4796 Posts
On March 11 2011 18:17 Naniwa wrote:
wtf he won ladder games ? siick.
That wasn't particularly nice. :/
Congrats Tyler!
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On March 11 2011 21:48 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. 500$ goes to the winner of the tournament, about as much as you've made in your starcraft career you're derailing this thread as Tyler did play brilliantly, showing hes just as strong of a player he was in bw
That was impressive :D
OT: I agree, Tyler looked scarily good there, the whole distraction into breaking the front tactic in early game was something I'd always wondered about but never seen anyone do at high level, so I was excited to see it.
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On March 12 2011 01:26 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone else feel like the game is shifting towards Protoss figuring out how to deal with MMM so effectively that it is no longer a viable option for Terran? I can only speak from my own experience (which is only 3.3k diamond) but it seems like going mass bio is met simply by getting completely crushed. I am seeing the same trend in higher levels of play and in the GSL. I think the Terran thinktank needs to get together and come up with some sort of midgame transition out of bio because it looks like Protoss have the build solved.
I think this is why a lot of Terrans are starting to lose. They've been going MMM pretty much since the release and it worked all this time because its really strong and simpel. But it's not wierd that when Protoss spends the entire game building an army exactly to counter MMM that he's going to win. Terrans are just too 1-dimensional atm.
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On March 12 2011 01:43 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:26 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone else feel like the game is shifting towards Protoss figuring out how to deal with MMM so effectively that it is no longer a viable option for Terran? I can only speak from my own experience (which is only 3.3k diamond) but it seems like going mass bio is met simply by getting completely crushed. I am seeing the same trend in higher levels of play and in the GSL. I think the Terran thinktank needs to get together and come up with some sort of midgame transition out of bio because it looks like Protoss have the build solved. I think this is why a lot of Terrans are starting to lose. They've been going MMM pretty much since the release and it worked all this time because its really strong and simpel. But it's not wierd that when Protoss spends the entire game building an army exactly to counter MMM that he's going to win. Terrans are just too 1-dimensional atm.
I dont think that's true, i mean, has protoss ever done anything besides gateway/colo or gateway/ht?
The problem is not with bio but with the way it is played. Alot of terrans are too passive when the strength of bio lies in the mobility. There are a few koreans like MVP who have shown just how good bio is when played correctly. I do agree that terrans should try other strats though, I almost never go bio and it works out great.
Terrans need to mix it up, but bio is still one of the strongest, if not the strongest build.
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8748 Posts
On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues
Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA.
Thanks for all the support guys :D
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On March 12 2011 01:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA. Thanks for all the support guys :D
WoW that is really insane. You played So well Tyler :D Best of luck in TSL in 7 days !!!!!
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On March 12 2011 01:12 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. It better be serious when the prize pool is 500 dollars. The winner of Tyler vs Jinro and TLO vs Haypro will play each other in a showmatch at PAX East for 500 dollars.
I also don't take much stock in show matches. There is never cheese and the games are almost always macro oriented. That's why both of them sit back and just macro for the most part at least in game 1 (I have not watched the others yet).
Sure money is on the line, but that showmatch money is totally different from the pressure of a GSL championship or A/S up-down match.
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On March 12 2011 01:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA. Thanks for all the support guys :D
Be honest, was beating Jinro a big confidence booster? 
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On March 11 2011 21:48 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. 500$ goes to the winner of the tournament, about as much as you've made in your starcraft career
Ahahahahahahaha
Gotta love how Naniwa has gone quiet.
Anyway, ggs Tyler, you're my favourite Liquid player, can't wait to see your games in tsl3.
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On March 12 2011 01:58 lac29 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:12 ptbl wrote:On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. It better be serious when the prize pool is 500 dollars. The winner of Tyler vs Jinro and TLO vs Haypro will play each other in a showmatch at PAX East for 500 dollars. I also don't take much stock in show matches. There is never cheese and the games are almost always macro oriented. That's why both of them sit back and just macro for the most part at least in game 1 (I have not watched the others yet). Sure money is on the line, but that showmatch money is totally different from the pressure of a GSL championship or A/S up-down match.
I'm not sure if you realize the bigger maps tend to make the games more macro orientated. Also, I would watch all the games before you make any assertions.
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On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
Lolololol the infamous Naniwa... Are you jealous?
Edit: Now that I got past the bm and really read the thread I'll give my input.
As neither a Terran nor a Protoss player, Tyler's builds seemed very well thought out and refined, and I feel like that double forge opening is going to become more popular as time goes on because of how strong it is due to relatively low cost and how much it benefits from chronoboost.
When you think about it, double forge 2/2 upgrades costs something like 800/500 (minerals/gas) including the forges (someone correct me if I'm wrong), as well as a good amount of chronoboost. This is definitely a heavy investment for Protoss but when you think about how much a Protoss army benefits from 2/2, especially colossus, I feel like the benefit for the cost is higher then if you just went single forge upgrades and spent more money and chronoboost on units.
(Basically double forge 2/2 provides very high benefit from that investment of 800 minerals, 500 gas, and chronoboost, in comparison to just getting more units and using a similar timing attack.)
Also, it leads into the really powerful mid game of colossus/blink stalker which is really strong as it comes at a time where the Terran seems to have a very low amount of anti-colossus units, mainly vikings. Tyler did lose that game but if he macroed a bit better I'm sure he could've taken out Jinro as he had a pretty significant lead (and that isn't meant to be a bash on Tyler, but rather an indication of potentially how much stronger his strategy could be).
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On March 12 2011 02:01 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:58 lac29 wrote:On March 12 2011 01:12 ptbl wrote:On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. It better be serious when the prize pool is 500 dollars. The winner of Tyler vs Jinro and TLO vs Haypro will play each other in a showmatch at PAX East for 500 dollars. I also don't take much stock in show matches. There is never cheese and the games are almost always macro oriented. That's why both of them sit back and just macro for the most part at least in game 1 (I have not watched the others yet). Sure money is on the line, but that showmatch money is totally different from the pressure of a GSL championship or A/S up-down match. I'm not sure if you realize the bigger maps tend to make the games more macro orientated. Also, I would watch all the games before you make any assertions.
The assertion is that you can predict how well a player is improving through show matches. Well my point is that show matches are totally different situations from real matches. Different things are on the line and while money is a good motivator for these games, it's not the same thing as a tournament situation where anything can happen. In show matches cheesing is probably heavily frowned upon because show matches are all about showing nice long games.
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On March 12 2011 02:06 lac29 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 02:01 ptbl wrote:On March 12 2011 01:58 lac29 wrote:On March 12 2011 01:12 ptbl wrote:On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. It better be serious when the prize pool is 500 dollars. The winner of Tyler vs Jinro and TLO vs Haypro will play each other in a showmatch at PAX East for 500 dollars. I also don't take much stock in show matches. There is never cheese and the games are almost always macro oriented. That's why both of them sit back and just macro for the most part at least in game 1 (I have not watched the others yet). Sure money is on the line, but that showmatch money is totally different from the pressure of a GSL championship or A/S up-down match. I'm not sure if you realize the bigger maps tend to make the games more macro orientated. Also, I would watch all the games before you make any assertions. The assertion is that you can predict how well a player is improving through show matches. Well my point is that show matches are totally different situations from real matches. Different things are on the line and while money is a good motivator for these games, it's not the same thing as a tournament situation where anything can happen. In show matches cheesing is probably heavily frowned upon because show matches are all about showing nice long games.
I cannot believe you're saying that 500 dollars in this show match has no bearing. Next, you're going to tell me the $1500 Clash of the Titans showmatch had no influence between Idra and Jinro.
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On March 12 2011 01:43 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:26 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone else feel like the game is shifting towards Protoss figuring out how to deal with MMM so effectively that it is no longer a viable option for Terran? I can only speak from my own experience (which is only 3.3k diamond) but it seems like going mass bio is met simply by getting completely crushed. I am seeing the same trend in higher levels of play and in the GSL. I think the Terran thinktank needs to get together and come up with some sort of midgame transition out of bio because it looks like Protoss have the build solved. I think this is why a lot of Terrans are starting to lose. They've been going MMM pretty much since the release and it worked all this time because its really strong and simpel. But it's not wierd that when Protoss spends the entire game building an army exactly to counter MMM that he's going to win. Terrans are just too 1-dimensional atm.
Terran dont really have any other options. Why do you think you know better than Jinro who has been experimenting with Mech? Its so easy for non terran players to say "just go mech", "teran players only use tier 1 units, thats why they lose". Mech may be viable, if players get good enough at doing it, but right now I kind of doubt that it ever will be. I mean how do you defeat a protoss player going blink stalker/collosus, blinking up in the terrans main? Terrans cant do shit about it. And while some terran players are having decent succces with mech, remember that they are having much more experience playing mech than toss are dealing against it (like a lot of toss players are really bad at defending hellion harass and abusing the immobility).
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On March 12 2011 02:08 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 02:06 lac29 wrote:On March 12 2011 02:01 ptbl wrote:On March 12 2011 01:58 lac29 wrote:On March 12 2011 01:12 ptbl wrote:On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. It better be serious when the prize pool is 500 dollars. The winner of Tyler vs Jinro and TLO vs Haypro will play each other in a showmatch at PAX East for 500 dollars. I also don't take much stock in show matches. There is never cheese and the games are almost always macro oriented. That's why both of them sit back and just macro for the most part at least in game 1 (I have not watched the others yet). Sure money is on the line, but that showmatch money is totally different from the pressure of a GSL championship or A/S up-down match. I'm not sure if you realize the bigger maps tend to make the games more macro orientated. Also, I would watch all the games before you make any assertions. The assertion is that you can predict how well a player is improving through show matches. Well my point is that show matches are totally different situations from real matches. Different things are on the line and while money is a good motivator for these games, it's not the same thing as a tournament situation where anything can happen. In show matches cheesing is probably heavily frowned upon because show matches are all about showing nice long games. I cannot believe you're saying that 500 dollars in this show match has no bearing. Next, you're going to tell me the $1500 Clash of the Titans showmatch had no influence between Idra and Jinro.
If you know certain strategies are not going to be used ... how does that test your skill. It makes it obviously easier to play the game. Tyler is awesome and his builds and skills are great ... but the when figuring out how well a player is improving overall as a player ... I'd look at real matches in tournament settings rather than showmatches.
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On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
Wait, who are you again? Shuffle off troll...
Nice work tyler, I didn't know a lot of those games were on the KR server. Looks like playing on KR has sharpened you up quite a bit, GL in TSL3!
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Tyler is really becoming my favorite protoss player, there is nothing more fun than to see him play this crisply and focused. Sure, he makes mistakes, but his overall game plan is just so well thought out. I'm really hoping to see him win more stuff in the future, and he most definitely will if he keeps playing like this.
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Holy shit. I came with sc2 so I didnt rly know Tyler (or Nony if u will) from BW and therefor I didnt know what he was capable of. I always see everyone saying that hes incredible when hes in form and playing well, and damn, I believe that now. The skill displayed in those games by Tyler were fantastic, I have never seen him play better. Perfect execution/macro (except for game 2 i think lol) and strategy.
Wow, just wow. GJ Tyler!
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On March 12 2011 02:12 lac29 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 02:08 ptbl wrote:On March 12 2011 02:06 lac29 wrote:On March 12 2011 02:01 ptbl wrote:On March 12 2011 01:58 lac29 wrote:On March 12 2011 01:12 ptbl wrote:On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious. It better be serious when the prize pool is 500 dollars. The winner of Tyler vs Jinro and TLO vs Haypro will play each other in a showmatch at PAX East for 500 dollars. I also don't take much stock in show matches. There is never cheese and the games are almost always macro oriented. That's why both of them sit back and just macro for the most part at least in game 1 (I have not watched the others yet). Sure money is on the line, but that showmatch money is totally different from the pressure of a GSL championship or A/S up-down match. I'm not sure if you realize the bigger maps tend to make the games more macro orientated. Also, I would watch all the games before you make any assertions. The assertion is that you can predict how well a player is improving through show matches. Well my point is that show matches are totally different situations from real matches. Different things are on the line and while money is a good motivator for these games, it's not the same thing as a tournament situation where anything can happen. In show matches cheesing is probably heavily frowned upon because show matches are all about showing nice long games. I cannot believe you're saying that 500 dollars in this show match has no bearing. Next, you're going to tell me the $1500 Clash of the Titans showmatch had no influence between Idra and Jinro. If you know certain strategies are not going to be used ... how does that test your skill. It makes it obviously easier to play the game. Tyler is awesome and his builds and skills are great ... but the when figuring out how well a player is improving overall as a player ... I'd look at real matches in tournament settings rather than showmatches.
So, you're saying you would rather prefer a 4 man tournament with a prize pool of 10 dollars compared to a 4 person showmatch with 500 dollars on the line. Whatever floats your boat.
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On March 12 2011 01:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA. Thanks for all the support guys :D
Some great games, nicely done Tyler. I look forward to this kind od epic play next weekend in the TSL. I have a feeling your gonna go all the way again.
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Tylers gonna take TSL3 ^^
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On March 12 2011 01:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA. Thanks for all the support guys :D
omg that makes it even better!
would you mind uploading the replays? :X
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I'm really curious about the build in game 3 with the 2gate blink stalkers. I don't know if he had the timings down but I feel like if a cloaked banshee showed up it would have been gg.
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Meh.. i dunno if they played these match very seriously.
The Haypro vs TLO match on their side look very friendly, and in match 2
+ Show Spoiler +on Taldarim Altar, they macro up like crazy w/o attacking each other during 20min for the fun of it.
Make me guess they weren't THAT serious.
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So happy Tyler won, he's my favorite team liquid player. I hope he has some awesome tournament runs and gets himself a few well deserve titles.
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I hope that Nony has a great 2011! He has a beastly run through TSL3, and it would be fantastic if he made it to the finals.
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i was disappointed jinro didnt mech since hes shown how effective that can be and protoss can really administer the hurt on mid-late game bio -_- That said the matches were still pretty sick.
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Everyone trying to downplay Tyler's play by saying Jinro wasn't playing seriously makes me sad. I can understand Jinro fans wanting to downplay a loss, but everyone loves Jinro anyway, and it takes away from some amazing play by Tyler. Support your liquid players guys ^^
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WP Tyler, rooting for you to become as good as you were in BW.
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Some of the timings that Tyler has worked out are really impressive.
For example he has it so that just as his +1/+1 finishes his twilight council finishes and he can start +2/+2.
Overall awesome and refreshing play.
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Go Tyler! Awesome timings
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You guys keep being surprised by tyler when in bw he was infinitely better than jinro and even that was an understatement. I have replays and seen fpview of both players and tyler is literally twice as fast as jinro. Also Tyler definitely knows how to play tournaments and anyone could see he figured jinro out by the fourth game.
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It would be amazing if Tyler won TSL3
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On March 12 2011 04:05 Noocta wrote:Meh.. i dunno if they played these match very seriously. The Haypro vs TLO match on their side look very friendly, and in match 2 + Show Spoiler +on Taldarim Altar, they macro up like crazy w/o attacking each other during 20min for the fun of it. Make me guess they weren't THAT serious.
None of them played for fun. The prize is 500 bucks, of course they are gonna be serious...
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On March 12 2011 04:25 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 04:05 Noocta wrote:Meh.. i dunno if they played these match very seriously. The Haypro vs TLO match on their side look very friendly, and in match 2 + Show Spoiler +on Taldarim Altar, they macro up like crazy w/o attacking each other during 20min for the fun of it. Make me guess they weren't THAT serious. None of them played for fun. The prize is 500 bucks, of course they are gonna be serious...
While I'm not saying you are wrong, you can't just state things like that. Unless you personally went and spoke to all 4 of them.
Anyway Tyler has never not been boss.
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Tyler beat IdrA in the showmatch before MLG too
Says more about Tyler than IdrA / Jinro IMO
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Tyler is very very good at analyzing his own builds and his opponents. I've always seen him do well in show matches and I think tournaments like TSL/NASL where he has a lot of time to prepare for each match will play to his strengths. It doesn't surprise me at all that he did so well here but its still awesome!
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On March 12 2011 01:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA. Thanks for all the support guys :D
TYLER FIGHTING!!!
Even back when I played Terran you were one of my favorite players, Tyler. Those were some amazingly played games, and I especially loved the colossus and blink stalker terrain abuse in the second game even though you lost it. So awesome. I think my jaw dropped a bit when it happened.
Edit: Massive lol @ Naniwa. I don't think I really have to say anything else about that.
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On March 12 2011 05:01 Char711 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA. Thanks for all the support guys :D TYLER FIGHTING!!! Even back when I played Terran you were one of my favorite players, Tyler. Those were some amazingly played games, and I especially loved the colossus and blink stalker terrain abuse in the second game even though you lost it. So awesome. I think my jaw dropped a bit when it happened.
I loved seeing that as well. You could tell that Jinro was focusing on his front, so using Blink Stalker + Colossus as a mobile army to bypass the problem was brilliant.
I still can't get over how effective zealots are with the upgrade advantage. Looks like I've been playing wrong since release.
I'm interested to see if the same heavy upgrade style would fare well against Zerg.
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On March 12 2011 05:08 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 05:01 Char711 wrote:On March 12 2011 01:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA. Thanks for all the support guys :D TYLER FIGHTING!!! Even back when I played Terran you were one of my favorite players, Tyler. Those were some amazingly played games, and I especially loved the colossus and blink stalker terrain abuse in the second game even though you lost it. So awesome. I think my jaw dropped a bit when it happened. I loved seeing that as well. You could tell that Jinro was focusing on his front, so using Blink Stalker + Colossus as a mobile army to bypass the problem was brilliant. I still can't get over how effective zealots are with the upgrade advantage. Looks like I've been playing wrong since release. I'm interested to see if the same heavy upgrade style would fare well against Zerg.
Axslav uses a pretty upgrade centric PvZ, you could check him out, he does very well
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Any chance the link to the vods could be posted in the op? From the sounds of it these seem like really good games to watch. Tyler #1
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On March 12 2011 05:41 Irave wrote:
Any chance the link to the vods could be posted in the op? From the sounds of it these seem like really good games to watch. Tyler #1
check day9's youtube channel.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
Why do people hate you? You're the most well mannered player around..
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hope to see tyler even better prepared for his games in the TSL.
also daaang @ slipspaces slap
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On March 11 2011 20:32 MaRkieMarK wrote:
I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
On March 12 2011 00:39 Healingproof wrote:
Look at the 3 most recent tournaments:
GSTL PvT: 14-4
GSL PvT: 24-15
IEM PvT: 17-9
Total PvT: 55-28
I don't want to take anything away from Tyler but I personally feld like Jinro played alot better. The PvT matchup is just so incredibly broken at the moment in favour of Protoss.
People really need to stop making arguments like these. The players themselves don't make excuses like these, they pick out the things they did poorly and practice so that next time they do them better.
Why must we degrade our players' achievements with talk of imbalance and illegitimacy? Is it so hard to say "they both played a good game, and one of them won"? It works in sports, it can work here, too.
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Sports are balanced. sc2 is not. The statistic shows a clear trend, that terran atm cant beat good protoss players.
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Sports are balanced. sc2 is not. The statistic shows a clear trend, that terran atm cant beat good protoss players.
If it was truly "can't" then the stats would be 100% in favor of Protoss. Don't misconstrue actual results with generalized statements.
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On March 12 2011 07:00 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 20:32 MaRkieMarK wrote:
I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 00:39 Healingproof wrote:
Look at the 3 most recent tournaments:
GSTL PvT: 14-4
GSL PvT: 24-15
IEM PvT: 17-9
Total PvT: 55-28
I don't want to take anything away from Tyler but I personally feld like Jinro played alot better. The PvT matchup is just so incredibly broken at the moment in favour of Protoss. People really need to stop making arguments like these. The players themselves don't make excuses like these, they pick out the things they did poorly and practice so that next time they do them better. Why must we degrade our players' achievements with talk of imbalance and illegitimacy? Is it so hard to say "they both played a good game, and one of them won"? It works in sports, it can work here, too.
Because esports dont work the same as sports at all really. They're much more complicated and less straight forward in their balance.
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People really need to stop making arguments like these. The players themselves don't make excuses like these, they pick out the things they did poorly and practice so that next time they do them better.
Why must we degrade our players' achievements with talk of imbalance and illegitimacy? Is it so hard to say "they both played a good game, and one of them won"? It works in sports, it can work here, too.
Uhh, I don't wanna sound like a dick but Jinro recently even stated himself that TvP was not in a good state. While I might be taking the quote out of context here it is:
On March 11 2011 14:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
The latency was fine today, some days it sucks. Today was no issue.
I think i played fine game 1 and 2 and i think i missed a ton of depots game 3. I also think anyone who says PvT is fine is an idiot, but primarily because terran cant win if protoss gets templars late game which wasnt really an issue in any of todays games.
I don't want to turn this into a QQ balance thread, so GG Tyler <3 Need more streaming from you mate! Need some more epic PvPs on stream where you think its a draw then smile slyly as you realize you can mine from your probes xD.
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On March 12 2011 05:08 Aequos wrote:
I still can't get over how effective zealots are with the upgrade advantage. Looks like I've been playing wrong since release.
I'm interested to see if the same heavy upgrade style would fare well against Zerg.
Fully upgraded chargelots are probably the king of ground overall. It's insane how strong of a unit that one is. Tanks insane amounts of damage while costing next to nothing, and doing stupid DPS or forcing your opponent to constantly kite.
I love chargelots. I wish people would make them and abuse them more.
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On March 12 2011 07:00 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 20:32 MaRkieMarK wrote:
I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 00:39 Healingproof wrote:
Look at the 3 most recent tournaments:
GSTL PvT: 14-4
GSL PvT: 24-15
IEM PvT: 17-9
Total PvT: 55-28
I don't want to take anything away from Tyler but I personally feld like Jinro played alot better. The PvT matchup is just so incredibly broken at the moment in favour of Protoss. People really need to stop making arguments like these. The players themselves don't make excuses like these, they pick out the things they did poorly and practice so that next time they do them better. Why must we degrade our players' achievements with talk of imbalance and illegitimacy? Is it so hard to say "they both played a good game, and one of them won"? It works in sports, it can work here, too.
Jinro usually says he's not comfortable with PvT, but that's just his nice way of saying it's imbalanced.
Then again, I'm pretty sure I've heard him say it's a bit unbalanced somewhere in the forums.
And he's not the only one, tons of top Terran players are calling it an unfair match-up.
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On March 12 2011 09:40 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 07:00 Treehead wrote:On March 11 2011 20:32 MaRkieMarK wrote:
I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
On March 12 2011 00:39 Healingproof wrote:
Look at the 3 most recent tournaments:
GSTL PvT: 14-4
GSL PvT: 24-15
IEM PvT: 17-9
Total PvT: 55-28
I don't want to take anything away from Tyler but I personally feld like Jinro played alot better. The PvT matchup is just so incredibly broken at the moment in favour of Protoss. People really need to stop making arguments like these. The players themselves don't make excuses like these, they pick out the things they did poorly and practice so that next time they do them better. Why must we degrade our players' achievements with talk of imbalance and illegitimacy? Is it so hard to say "they both played a good game, and one of them won"? It works in sports, it can work here, too. Jinro usually says he's not comfortable with PvT, but that's just his nice way of saying it's imbalanced. Then again, I'm pretty sure I've heard him say it's a bit unbalanced somewhere in the forums. And he's not the only one, tons of top Terran players are calling it an unfair match-up.
i think that when jinro says he isnt comfortable with PvT he means that he isnt comfortable with PvT. Its by far his weakest MU imo
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On March 12 2011 01:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:24 hifriend wrote:
Regardless of whether jinro had latency issues Games 1-3 were on KR server actually! Game 4 on NA. Thanks for all the support guys :D
You played great
Awesome timing on the 2 gate blink
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For it being his weakest matchup he seemed to do nicely to beat arguably the best protoss in the world. I think terrans complain because they are so dominant in TvZ and TvT is a mirror. Having a matchup where they cant completely control the pace of the game probably automatically makes it feel uncomfortable.
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Tyler is such a baller, reminds me of a guy called NonY in broodwar. He always mobilises and beats better ranked players - have to love him
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On March 12 2011 07:10 Hider wrote:
Sports are balanced. sc2 is not. The statistic shows a clear trend, that terran atm cant beat good protoss players.
This is garbage. Jinro beat MC and MVP beat just about everybody last season, and the only reason he lost this season is he didn't play very well. All the imbalance talk is just stupid. TvP is a hard matchup, sure, and so is PvT, the player who plays better will win. It's funny to me that I see more terran's complaining about balance lately than zerg><
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On March 12 2011 07:27 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +Sports are balanced. sc2 is not. The statistic shows a clear trend, that terran atm cant beat good protoss players. If it was truly "can't" then the stats would be 100% in favor of Protoss. Don't misconstrue actual results with generalized statements.
That could not be more wrong cus of 2 reasons: 1) Variance + 2) Difference in skill level.
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On March 12 2011 10:01 Jayrod wrote:
For it being his weakest matchup he seemed to do nicely to beat arguably the best protoss in the world. I think terrans complain because they are so dominant in TvZ and TvT is a mirror. Having a matchup where they cant completely control the pace of the game probably automatically makes it feel uncomfortable.
The best playr in the world has played like 700 ladder games and dont practice custom games?
Jinro has probably plaed like 5 times or more as many tvp as Tyler has played Pvts.
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The hell are you talking about. He was referring to MC not Tyler.
And history has shown us nony operates much different than the average player. He gets builds down and plays them out almost flawlessly. It's not about how many games you mass, it's what you're doing with your practice time. If it was purely about amount of practice Whitera would be king of the world, but instead he's relegated to being one of the top 3 toss in Europe. Dude plays thousands of games.
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On March 12 2011 12:05 ALang wrote:
The hell are you talking about. He was referring to MC not Tyler.
And history has shown us nony operates much different than the average player. He gets builds down and plays them out almost flawlessly. It's not about how many games you mass, it's what you're doing with your practice time. If it was purely about amount of practice Whitera would be king of the world, but instead he's relegated to being one of the top 3 toss in Europe. Dude plays thousands of games.
Sry for my misread. ANyway. Whitera has 2 jobs (if i rembember correctly) and a family. Doubt he practices that much.
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No disrespect to Tyler cause I like him and like watching him play, but it looked like Jinro was struggling quite a bit with latency. He missed some emps quite badly.
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On March 12 2011 10:05 MindRush wrote:
Tyler is such a baller, reminds me of a guy called NonY in broodwar. He always mobilises and beats better ranked players - have to love him
Haha...Tyler IS Nony my favourite foreign protoss...gonna try and copy that double forge build. Even though it fails miserably if you don't hit perfect timings, it looks and feels so elegant.
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On March 11 2011 21:45 Pulz wrote:
Are there VoDs/Streams of the game?
Check out Husky's youtube page there all pretty good games not just this one
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On March 12 2011 16:05 thebigdonkey wrote:
No disrespect to Tyler cause I like him and like watching him play, but it looked like Jinro was struggling quite a bit with latency. He missed some emps quite badly.
Tyler said earlier in this thread that the first 3 games were on the Korean server. So I don't think that latency had to do with it. Jinro has said a bunch of times that he doesn't do well in TvP and has lots of problems with the match up. Tyler is just getting really good and is getting back into the form that made him so famous in BW
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On March 12 2011 16:05 thebigdonkey wrote:
No disrespect to Tyler cause I like him and like watching him play, but it looked like Jinro was struggling quite a bit with latency. He missed some emps quite badly.
Tyler stated earlier in this post that the first 3 games were hosted on Korea, thus latency would have been better for Jinro than Tyler.
As I had stated earlier, trying to demean Tyler's play by saying that he was only doing so well because of some problem on the opponents end is really weak, regardless of opponent, his play was great, which was the point of the post.
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On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
Have you ever tried meditation?
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Tyler is known for being able to snipe the best of the best--he's the legend killer in that respect. I can't, however, ignore Jinro's recent statements about his problems with TvP (as well as other Terrans)... unless we see some big changes in how the matchup is played I think Protoss dominance over Terran is going to be pretty commonplace now.
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On March 12 2011 16:05 thebigdonkey wrote:
No disrespect to Tyler cause I like him and like watching him play, but it looked like Jinro was struggling quite a bit with latency. He missed some emps quite badly.
Well, he missed some of those emps REALLY badly, certainly much worse than one could explain with any amount of latency. I mean, I've seen many people play from NA to KR (including Tyler), and the latency isn't as bad as Jinro made it look in those games imo.
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On March 11 2011 18:20 Naniwa wrote:
showmatches? really!? then it must be very serious.
Are you for real?
/slams door in trolls face
BTW great job Tyler. You had some beast-mode control those games. The more results you put up in SC2 the more my respect grows.
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On March 12 2011 11:49 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 10:01 Jayrod wrote:
For it being his weakest matchup he seemed to do nicely to beat arguably the best protoss in the world. I think terrans complain because they are so dominant in TvZ and TvT is a mirror. Having a matchup where they cant completely control the pace of the game probably automatically makes it feel uncomfortable. The best playr in the world has played like 700 ladder games and dont practice custom games? Jinro has probably plaed like 5 times or more as many tvp as Tyler has played Pvts.
I meant MC, but Tyler practices a lot vs. ai iirc so I think your points an exaggeration. Also whitera has an absurd amount of games played and he has a brilliant rts mind. It's like people are insinuating Tyler only won because he uses toss. He won because he was the better player in this show match.
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On March 12 2011 16:34 barkles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 16:05 thebigdonkey wrote:
No disrespect to Tyler cause I like him and like watching him play, but it looked like Jinro was struggling quite a bit with latency. He missed some emps quite badly. Well, he missed some of those emps REALLY badly, certainly much worse than one could explain with any amount of latency. I mean, I've seen many people play from NA to KR (including Tyler), and the latency isn't as bad as Jinro made it look in those games imo.
Games 1-3 were on KR. Tyler won despite lag but not due to it.
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Tyler is a lot better than people think he is. This wasn't a fluke, he really is that good. If he practiced more, than he would be even better.
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Jinro, have you ever played with Bio/mech?
MMM/Ghost + tanks... i had some good success with it in practice games on the GSL maps.. any thoughts?
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am i crazy to think we would get more publicity on husky's account
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I think this was a combination of Tyler being a much better player and Protoss being slightly favored at the moment. I think people expects too much from Jinro, he has been doing fine on GSL so far but he always ends up being outclassed in an advanced round as soon as he gets a tough opponent (with the exception of MC, and TvZ was easy with the old maps, let's face it). Nony on the other hand I could see winning a GSL if he trained. I think it would have been 3-0 if they had played on the NA server first.
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On March 13 2011 02:14 Globkin wrote:
I think this was a combination of Tyler being a much better player and Protoss being slightly favored at the moment. I think people expects too much from Jinro, he has been doing fine on GSL so far but he always ends up being outclassed in an advanced round as soon as he gets a tough opponent (with the exception of MC, and TvZ was easy with the old maps, let's face it). Nony on the other hand I could see winning a GSL if he trained. I think it would have been 3-0 if they had played on the NA server first.
I wouldn't underestimate jinro... at all.
hes one of the only terrans in the game to have actually beaten MC..... with a hat trick none the less... (didnt practice tvp)
I think the issue is terrans are too focused on bio heavy armies and the MU just doesn't favor it anymore with all the new maps and the focus of sentries early on. You shouldn't put too much thought into 1 series.... im sure jinro playing to the best of his ability would outclass nony ;D
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Opposingly, Tyler was definitively THE best foreigner for Brood War, and he has the micro/macro/game sense advantage over anyone really. Who was Jinro in Brood War? Never heard of him. Sc2 being a different game, the advantage is certainly not the same, but to say Jinro outclasses Nony is just wrong, especially since he just lost 1-3 to him.
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On March 13 2011 02:27 FrostyTreats wrote:
I wouldn't underestimate jinro... at all.
hes one of the only terrans in the game to have actually beaten MC..... with a hat trick none the less... (didnt practice tvp)
Eh, Jinro won 2 games from MC if I recall correctly. The first game was on lost temple (which no longer exists cause Blizzard deemed it terran favored  ) and in the second game MC screwed badly. So yeah you are basically judging from a game. But what we do know is that Jinro always chokes and gets beaten badly in the end. People shouldn't pretend he's better than he is just because he's a foreigner, he hasn't done anything impressive so far. The way I see it he had success when terran was favored and now that protoss have figured out the game he doesn't make it far (Ro16 was a given since he was head of the group). I expect him to drop to code A next season since he will get a tough group next time (though so many bad players made it far this season that he could get an easy group again.) sc2 is so random 
I will be cheering for Jinro though but mainly cause he's such a nice guy.
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On March 13 2011 02:53 sAfuRos wrote:
Opposingly, Tyler was definitively THE best foreigner for Brood War, and he has the micro/macro/game sense advantage over anyone really. Who was Jinro in Brood War? Never heard of him. Sc2 being a different game, the advantage is certainly not the same, but to say Jinro outclasses Nony is just wrong, especially since he just lost 1-3 to him.
Jinro was FrozenArbiter you dolt.
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On March 13 2011 03:15 Globkin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:27 FrostyTreats wrote:
I wouldn't underestimate jinro... at all.
hes one of the only terrans in the game to have actually beaten MC..... with a hat trick none the less... (didnt practice tvp)
Eh, Jinro won 2 games from MC if I recall correctly. The first game was on lost temple (which no longer exists cause Blizzard deemed it terran favored ) and in the second game MC screwed badly. So yeah you are basically judging from a game. But what we do know is that Jinro always chokes and gets beaten badly in the end. People shouldn't pretend he's better than he is just because he's a foreigner, he hasn't done anything impressive so far. The way I see it he had success when terran was favored and now that protoss have figured out the game he doesn't make it far (Ro16 was a given since he was head of the group). I expect him to drop to code A next season since he will get a tough group next time (though so many bad players made it far this season that he could get an easy group again.) sc2 is so random I will be cheering for Jinro though but mainly cause he's such a nice guy.
actually, The map favored protoss with no cliff abuse.
the map is imbalance because of the cliff. a cliff that wasn't abused...
and i cant believe you have the nads to try and say jinro is bad or point out that he has gotten lucky with easy groups.... of all the foreigners that have come to korea..only him and idra have gotten the furthest. you overlook 1 series. 1 series doesn't define a persons career. Jinro got to where he was because hes good. oh and need i remind you.. he has accomplished more then any foreigner in sc2? Winning mlg? placing top 4 twice in GSL. <---- Qualifying for the GSL is a feat in of it self
something tyler has yet to accomplish.
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On March 13 2011 03:16 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:53 sAfuRos wrote:
Opposingly, Tyler was definitively THE best foreigner for Brood War, and he has the micro/macro/game sense advantage over anyone really. Who was Jinro in Brood War? Never heard of him. Sc2 being a different game, the advantage is certainly not the same, but to say Jinro outclasses Nony is just wrong, especially since he just lost 1-3 to him. Jinro was FrozenArbiter you dolt.
Yes he was frozen arbiter but jinro was actaully pretty unsuccessful in sc1. In the latter days of Bw i dont think he played at all. Im happy to see him doing so well now but Nony has what i feel more is more experiance and a little bit more talent.
People who just joined TL for sc2 probably dont know how Incredible Nony was and assume hes just an inferior player to Jinro.
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On March 13 2011 03:15 Globkin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:27 FrostyTreats wrote:
I wouldn't underestimate jinro... at all.
hes one of the only terrans in the game to have actually beaten MC..... with a hat trick none the less... (didnt practice tvp)
Eh, Jinro won 2 games from MC if I recall correctly. The first game was on lost temple (which no longer exists cause Blizzard deemed it terran favored ) and in the second game MC screwed badly. So yeah you are basically judging from a game. But what we do know is that Jinro always chokes and gets beaten badly in the end. People shouldn't pretend he's better than he is just because he's a foreigner, he hasn't done anything impressive so far. The way I see it he had success when terran was favored and now that protoss have figured out the game he doesn't make it far (Ro16 was a given since he was head of the group). I expect him to drop to code A next season since he will get a tough group next time (though so many bad players made it far this season that he could get an easy group again.) sc2 is so random I will be cheering for Jinro though but mainly cause he's such a nice guy.
This has to be the among the worst posts I've read on teamliquid.
So disrespectful its just sad.
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i have to just post and say wow at tylers play. can't wait to see him in the TSL, especially in later rounds hopefully. Tyler - fruitdealer and tyler - MC could be amazing matches
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On March 13 2011 03:52 rolfe wrote:
i have to just post and say wow at tylers play. can't wait to see him in the TSL, especially in later rounds hopefully. Tyler - fruitdealer and tyler - MC could be amazing matches
I agree. These matches will be fun to watch. I just hope people figure out sooner than later that Tyler is a beast, and just because he isn't a beast on the korean scene currently doesn't mean PvX is broken if/when he beats someone who is.
I agree. These matches will be fun to watch. I just hope people figure out sooner than later that Tyler is a beast, and just because he isn't a beast on the korean scene currently doesn't mean PvX is broken if/when he beats someone who is.
On March 12 2011 07:33 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 07:00 Treehead wrote:On March 11 2011 20:32 MaRkieMarK wrote:
I do feel that while Tyler played really really solid, Jinro didn't really play to his full potential.
On March 12 2011 00:39 Healingproof wrote:
Look at the 3 most recent tournaments:
GSTL PvT: 14-4
GSL PvT: 24-15
IEM PvT: 17-9
Total PvT: 55-28
I don't want to take anything away from Tyler but I personally feld like Jinro played alot better. The PvT matchup is just so incredibly broken at the moment in favour of Protoss. People really need to stop making arguments like these. The players themselves don't make excuses like these, they pick out the things they did poorly and practice so that next time they do them better. Why must we degrade our players' achievements with talk of imbalance and illegitimacy? Is it so hard to say "they both played a good game, and one of them won"? It works in sports, it can work here, too. Because esports dont work the same as sports at all really. They're much more complicated and less straight forward in their balance.
Yes, there is a difference between sports and sc2. Sports also contains judgemental calls by officials, whereas SC2 doesn't. My point was about respect and about unfounded opinions.
First, making claims which imply that someone's victories were illegitimate is incredibly disrespectful. You should never do this in the first place, even if the concerned party isn't bothered by it. It's just common courtesy.
Second, It isn't as though someone has broken down tyler's attacks point by point and explained why they believe certain aspects were too strong, examined jinro's decisions and come to the conclusion that any decision he could've made would've been ineffective, or analyzed tyler's decisions and came to the substantiated conclusion that he was playing terribly. They simply said, "Based on this, P is broken". There's more to the game than that, as your post implies.
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On March 13 2011 03:15 Globkin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 02:27 FrostyTreats wrote:
I wouldn't underestimate jinro... at all.
hes one of the only terrans in the game to have actually beaten MC..... with a hat trick none the less... (didnt practice tvp)
Eh, Jinro won 2 games from MC if I recall correctly. The first game was on lost temple (which no longer exists cause Blizzard deemed it terran favored ) and in the second game MC screwed badly. So yeah you are basically judging from a game. But what we do know is that Jinro always chokes and gets beaten badly in the end. People shouldn't pretend he's better than he is just because he's a foreigner, he hasn't done anything impressive so far. The way I see it he had success when terran was favored and now that protoss have figured out the game he doesn't make it far (Ro16 was a given since he was head of the group). I expect him to drop to code A next season since he will get a tough group next time (though so many bad players made it far this season that he could get an easy group again.) sc2 is so random I will be cheering for Jinro though but mainly cause he's such a nice guy.
Jinro made it to GSL Ro4 twice, beating even MC along the way and taking games off MKP (an insanely good player). It's quite obvious he's one of the VERY best players in the world. He doesn't need to prove that to anyone.
This latest game between Tyler and Jinro just shows that Tyler is ALSO really really good.
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Tyler has always been a scary player when he has time to practice, I imagine his practice for TSL3 is what is being shown off. However Jinro was playing from Korea to US which is incredibly bad for latency.
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On March 13 2011 08:28 frozt_ wrote:
Tyler has always been a scary player when he has time to practice, I imagine his practice for TSL3 is what is being shown off. However Jinro was playing from Korea to US which is incredibly bad for latency.
3/4 of the games were played on Korea server, latency was in Jinro's favor
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Just because he makes it far in GSL and beats Idra in TvZ doesn't mean Jinro is unbeatable here. He has shown very back and forth TvP even in GSL, and Tyler is really good.
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On March 13 2011 03:32 Tabbris wrote:
People who just joined TL for sc2 probably dont know how Incredible Nony was and assume hes just an inferior player to Jinro.
Well, to be fair, he most likely is the inferior player in SC2. I'm not saying that from a biased perspective either -- Jinro practices a lot more than Tyler and he has actual results to show. From an purely objective standpoint, Jinro is the more accomplished and by all measurable statistics a superior player. This could change, but the facts are facts as they stand.
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On March 12 2011 07:10 Hider wrote:
Sports are balanced. sc2 is not. The statistic shows a clear trend, that terran atm cant beat good protoss players.
It was about fking time, after a 2010 with 50% terrans in every top 8 in every tourney. The race have all the resources to succed. P's figured out how to deal with T's after being beated every time. Now is terran turn to find the way.
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On March 13 2011 08:41 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 07:10 Hider wrote:
Sports are balanced. sc2 is not. The statistic shows a clear trend, that terran atm cant beat good protoss players. It was about fking time, after a 2010 with 50% terrans in every top 8 in every tourney. The race have all the resources to succed. P's figured out how to deal with T's after being beated every time. Now is terran turn to find the way.
Not that I buy into these so-called trends at all yet as there hasn't been enough time, nor do I think there's any TvP imbalance as of yet, the main reason Protosses have been winning lately isn't because they "figured out" anything. It's because every tournament has started using new, bigger maps and as I'm sure we all know, Terran's strategies up until now greatly depended on small maps.
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On March 12 2011 16:17 VdH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 10:05 MindRush wrote:
Tyler is such a baller, reminds me of a guy called NonY in broodwar. He always mobilises and beats better ranked players - have to love him Haha...Tyler IS Nony my favourite foreign protoss...gonna try and copy that double forge build. Even though it fails miserably if you don't hit perfect timings, it looks and feels so elegant.
Romania
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EPT
