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If you take a look at the Korean eSports scene, there is one of the big difference in the marketing of it all.
That difference is that they use the players' actual names instead of only their tag. It may seem like a minor difference, but if you think about it is pretty major in terms of making it mainstream.
If you look at StarCraft as a story, then using actual names seems like it would legitimize the players as actual people instead of just participants of a game. For instance, a player like ActionJesus might have a tendency to 6-pool, but that's it. A tendency determined by other peoples' accounts. If you compare that to a player like Kim Nam Gyu, (look him up if you need) you see tendencies as well, but since the spectators are given his name and see his actual face and body language, they internalize a sense for him as a person.
When you remove the anonymity of a tag and introduce them as a real flesh and blood human, they become more than a character. I'm wondering if what eSports needs in the west to become truly mainstream is people instead of participants. What do you guys think?
Edit: Mod, if you would please change the title of the thread to "Real Names to Help eSports?" Thanks.
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On March 02 2011 11:19 ScrapBrain wrote:
If you take a look at the Korean eSports scene, there is one of the big difference in the marketing of it all.
That difference is that they use the players' actual names instead of only their tag. It may seem like a minor difference, but if you think about it is pretty major in terms of making it mainstream.
If you look at StarCraft as a story, then using actual names seems like it would legitimize the players as actual people instead of just participants of a game. For instance, a player like ActionJesus might have a tendency to 6-pool, but that's it. A tendency determined by other peoples' accounts. If you compare that to a player like Kim Nam Gyu, (look him up if you need) you see tendencies as well, but since the spectators are given his name and see his actual face and body language, they internalize a sense for him as a person.
When you remove the anonymity of a tag and introduce them as a real flesh and blood human, they become more than a character. I'm wondering if what eSports needs in the west to become truly mainstream is people instead of participants. What do you guys think?
Whoa, you just threw in some extra elements in there in favor of your argument, even though they are separate (the underlined part).
First names are already readily available so I don't see how this is an issue, and many players still use gamer names in Korea as far as I have seen. Personally I think having a gamer name is better because it shows a little bit more about them based on the name they choose.
A league can also include personal names if they feel that will help, but it definitely isn't a secret. Just look up any player on Team Liquid and you will get their first and last name... I guess I just don't know what you are trying to get at here, but I believe I disagree.
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i don't think it's a marketing thing
most koreans wouldn't be able to pronounce flash, jaedong, or mvp, i think that's why their korean names are used
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Ha ha I'm quite sure 100% of Koreans know how to pronounce Jaedong.
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On March 02 2011 11:23 awu25 wrote:
i don't think it's a marketing thing
most koreans wouldn't be able to pronounce flash, jaedong, or mvp, i think that's why their korean names are used
this is why I love TL.
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On March 02 2011 11:25 iamke55 wrote:
Ha ha I'm quite sure 100% of Koreans know how to pronounce Jaedong.
lol you're right that was a bad example, but any gamer tag that's not their korean name, they would probably have trouble pronouncing or remembering since they probably don't know what they mean
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the reason the XFL failed was because of He Hate Me
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I kinda feel that gamernames are a signature part of esports. You recreate yourself online. It is a part of the appeal.
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Interesting point.
Yea, the Korean commentators never refer to players by their ID tag.
They say "Lee Young Ho is doing blah blah blah" not "Flash is doing blah blah blah"
In fact, some people probably don't know/don't care what the ID tag of certain players are.
But the difficulty of pronounciation does make a difference.
When they were commentating a Blizzard World Wide Invitational, they refered to Draco as "Draco", not "Krzysztof Nalepka" since its hard to say that everytime.
Not sure if it would make that much of a difference as far as growing eSport in the West, but interesting difference nonetheless.
It would be funny to hear commentators say "Greg Fields is moving out!" instead of "Idra is moving out!"
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Does anyone remember CAL circa 2005? 3D | Sievers, NIP Christensen???
Made no difference to the outside world and just make the league look ridiculous to the existing community.
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Well look at it this way, UFC introduces First name, Nick name, Last name and I think that's pretty cool. I think using real names is a step in the right direction but that can only be possible for tournament IDs. I don't think i'd like to use my real name as a b.net ID that's just not smart, better to remain anonymous over the internet but I think it's a good idea for tournaments to maybe provide b.net IDs that are your real name but I don't know if that could be done.
I understand your point, but what's your solution? I see no solution really. I would never use my real name on b.net because of identity theft and hacking.
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I acually really like this idea, I think it would really be alot better, I still think it's best to use there Usernames first then just have maybe in parenthesis somwhere what there real names are in like a tourney or somthing. Only in the opening part though so that we dont see a huge long name everytime
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I don't like it, but I do think we'll end up heading in the direction of using real names. It's not so much an E-SPORTS thing, nor marketing, or any thing like that. It just feels that that's the way a lot of the internet is going now days. Facebook and realID are the first two examples that come to mind.
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Part of what gives esports its soul is having awesome aka's and player tags though.
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That's what I heard Artosis pointed out in an interview that he did or something he mentioned, that most Koreans wouldn't be able to tell you who Boxer is, but everyone knows who Lim Yo-Hwan is.
I think for now its fine, but maybe in the future we will move towards using names and monikers. However, with the online generation maturing and being in the decision making roles of major companies, a monicker/screen name can be something people have grown up with. It's becoming more prevalent as more people access the internet even with Facebook and Blizzard's attempt at Real ID.
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On March 02 2011 11:23 awu25 wrote:
i don't think it's a marketing thing
most koreans wouldn't be able to pronounce flash, jaedong, or mvp, i think that's why their korean names are used
LOL
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It is what it is. In real sports, commentators and fans call players by nicknames, last names, first names, and anything else they want. Ronaldo, "Shaq," Kobe, Brett Favre usually gets called by his name in entirety, "Magic" Johnson, "Dr. J"
Nicknames don't detract from personality or professionalism, I think they add personality.
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Not everyone has badass names like Jaedong, so I disagree with this. Having badass gamer tags makes players seem greater than human while they're playing and that adds a lot of excitement to starcraft IMO.
Pro Wrestling is an example of this too.
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I think there is an easy solution to make people call you by your real name.
Make your ID "gfkljwrdxk"
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Calgary25997 Posts
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
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I think it might be hard for foreigners to get into starcraft because some korean names are somewhat similar and less memorable. It might be difficult to remember who's who if we have like a bunch of korean names. This may not be a problem, but i think using the IDs are much more memorable.
Also if we used names how would we have clan tags and all that goodness? Slayers, Lim Yo-Hwan? No thanks.
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
Even if it was the latter, why are people so willing to give up the community for ESPORTS. The two worst things that could ever happen for esports, SC2 especially, is it dies out or it becomes exactly like the mainstream US sports and we lose the SC2 culture that's been so great.
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The underlying premise of this thread is just wrong. How many people know flash's, storks, boxers, or nada's real name? Yes, some devoted fans know every players real name, but it's just not important. Everyone knows who flash is, a lot less people can tell you who Lee Young Ho is.
By trying to take things too seriously like this you're destroying the allure of esports. Esports players are not football players or baseball players, being super serious all the time because we have billion dollar sponsors behind us. We're a bunch of nerds who just want to play their favorite game, this isn't a job. We do it because we love it, and the names are a big part of the culture.
Who the fuck wants to hear about Geoff Robinson, that's such a boring name. iNcontroL, on the other hand is a fucking beast. Greg Fields? I can't think of a more boring name outside of Chad Smith I can think of, but IdrA? The Gracken? That's so exciting and epic.
TL;DR: Stop trying to be so serious. Esports is all about the joy, and the love of the game, and by removing the elements of the culture, you're destroying a big part of what makes esports.
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I don't like player going by their name. Seeing LiquidTyler just isn't as cool as LiquidNoNy. There's a billion Tylers, and it's weird saying "Tyler is my favorite player".
Last names might be ok by me though. I'd love to see LiquidWasieleski (sp?)
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
This, well said.
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On March 02 2011 11:35 don_kyuhote wrote:
Interesting point.
Yea, the Korean commentators never refer to players by their ID tag.
They say "Lee Young Ho is doing blah blah blah" not "Flash is doing blah blah blah"
In fact, some people probably don't know/don't care what the ID tag of certain players are.
But the difficulty of pronounciation does make a difference.
they're all from the same country and used to the names/naming conventions, so it's simple
once you start dealing with american/international tournaments where everyone has different backgrounds, it's way too complicated
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Theres not one small magical block or key thats going to fuel esports other than our willingness to get it out there
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How is this even an issue? Gamers have always been introduced in the Cyber Athelete League fashion:
Name 'nick' Last Name
Ex: Geoff 'Incontrol' robinson
Sean 'Day9' plott
Jonathan 'Kiwikaki' Garneau
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
The issue is not that there is a social stigma. If that mattered, not nearly as many people would be willing to express their love of eSports. But if you look at something such as poker, it is more than just a game. I have watched poker for years, but watching the actual game play itself is very boring. The excitement comes from back-stories and getting people you can root for, right? Who would your root for between MoonShatter and sToPGoGo? You have no idea because those are just two guys in my ladder division. What about Lim Yo Hwan vs Kim Won Gi? Korea has made those more than just Slayers`Boxer vs TSL.Fruitdealer. You don't think that they might have been on to something by making the people more than their handles?
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 02 2011 12:38 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm... The issue is not that there is a social stigma. If that mattered, not nearly as many people would be willing to express their love of eSports. But if you look at something such as poker, it is more than just a game. I have watched poker for years, but watching the actual game play itself is very boring. The excitement comes from back-stories and getting people you can root for, right? Who would your root for between MoonShatter and sToPGoGo? You have no idea because those are just two guys in my ladder division. What about Lim Yo Hwan vs Kim Won Gi? Korea has made those more than just Slayers`Boxer vs TSL.Fruitdealer. You don't think that they might have been on to something by making the people more than their handles?
I disagree 100% .. SlayerS_BoxeR and TSL_Fruitdealer will get close to 97% more recognition than Kim Won Gi in the Western world..
Increasing the notoriety of eSports in Korea is simply not in our realm (speaking from a foreigner perspective) however the Western world would be a lot more receptive to a player's handle than their name in my opinion.. I do agree with Chill that this is quite close to the smallest problem standing in the way of eSports and the social stigma attached to computer games and gamers in general as nerds and leeches of society needs to be overcome first.. IDs vs Real Names i just don't feel is a priority..
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Osaka27172 Posts
On March 02 2011 11:23 awu25 wrote:
i don't think it's a marketing thing
most koreans wouldn't be able to pronounce flash, jaedong, or mvp, i think that's why their korean names are used
This post needs more love haha
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
LOL. nice.
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
Part of what the OP is getting at is that these two issues are related. Nobody is going to take something seriously if everyone participating goes by a nickname which was probably invented to make you sound cooler than you actually are. I mean, why would you consider something legitimate if everybody participating is already in some sense fraudulent?
Yes, some professional athletes are known by their nicknames as much as or more than their actual name, but they didn't start their professional career with those nicknames. And they often didn't make them up themselves.
Edit: yes, I may have overe generalized. By nobody, I mean in the general public. You get the idea... I have said many times before in these types of threads that everyone should just use their real name.
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Honestly, the pseudonym "Fruitdealer" made me root for him more because it reminds me of his background every time I hear it.
I have trouble memorizing Korean names. Lim Yo-Hwan is one of the only Korean names that stick to my head, despite having heard the Korean names for each player while watching tournaments. Min Chul is one that sticks to my head because it's initials are MC, his handle.
As for the western guys, I already know the majority of the Western pros' real names just because they're more easily memorable, but I still think of their nicknames when I see them. I think it has to do with the fact that even if the competitive scene is getting big, it's still a video game. Nicknames have been a part of multiplayer video games for such a long time that I think it will stick until the end of time.
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
One could make an argument that IDs contribute in some way to the social stigma. You've probably seen it before in any sort of comedy/satire piece that lambastes gaming in any shape or form where they make fun of an online ID/monicker.
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
I think commentators calling people by their names WOULD help legitimize e-sports. In my opinion, it is more acceptable for "John Doe" to be playing SCII, than it is for "NerDCrUshEr"
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i think non koreans use nick names because they can't pronounce korean names 
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
Social stigma isn't a concrete thing.. there's no reason it's not reasonable to suggest it's being contributed to by using usernames instead of real names, as they do in Korean e-sports and real sports.
Meh, I like the idea, you're absolutely correct that this isn't like to ignite some massive boom to esports.. but it does somehow seem more respectful to use real names, and slightly immature to use screen names? Meh, I don't think that when watching tastosis, but that's coming from someone who has grown up using usernames as habitually as your name, I imagine it seems quite foreign to others.
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On March 02 2011 12:46 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 12:38 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm... The issue is not that there is a social stigma. If that mattered, not nearly as many people would be willing to express their love of eSports. But if you look at something such as poker, it is more than just a game. I have watched poker for years, but watching the actual game play itself is very boring. The excitement comes from back-stories and getting people you can root for, right? Who would your root for between MoonShatter and sToPGoGo? You have no idea because those are just two guys in my ladder division. What about Lim Yo Hwan vs Kim Won Gi? Korea has made those more than just Slayers`Boxer vs TSL.Fruitdealer. You don't think that they might have been on to something by making the people more than their handles? I disagree 100% .. SlayerS_BoxeR and TSL_Fruitdealer will get close to 97% more recognition than Kim Won Gi in the Western world.. Increasing the notoriety of eSports in Korea is simply not in our realm (speaking from a foreigner perspective) however the Western world would be a lot more receptive to a player's handle than their name in my opinion.. I do agree with Chill that this is quite close to the smallest problem standing in the way of eSports and the social stigma attached to computer games and gamers in general as nerds and leeches of society needs to be overcome first.. IDs vs Real Names i just don't feel is a priority..
The problem with your notion is that you seem to think that eSports in the west is anywhere near the level of that in Korea. It is a LOT better than anytime in the past, but it isn't consuming multiple TV channels and a third of the population plays online games.
Why not take ideas that have worked for Korea, the mecca of what we are trying to promote and adapt them to our situation here?
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
I agree with this.
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What exactly are you trying to argue here? That calling somebody by a different name gives me a greater insight into their personality? Or that ActionJesuz has hitherto-unrevealed powers of invisibility?
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Even if it was the latter, why are people so willing to give up the community for ESPORTS. The two worst things that could ever happen for esports, SC2 especially, is it dies out or it becomes exactly like the mainstream US sports and we lose the SC2 culture that's been so great.
Are you saying that the SC2 culture is founded on the use of nicknames? That if we didn't use nicknames, it would irrevocably and fundamentally kill SC2 culture? Even though Koreans don't use nicknames?
Sorry; does not compute.
What exactly are you trying to argue here? That calling somebody by a different name gives me a greater insight into their personality? Or that ActionJesuz has hitherto-unrevealed powers of invisibility?
No, he's saying that using an actual name for a guy, as they do in South Korea, makes them a person.
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[B]
Part of what the OP is getting at is that these two issues are related. Nobody is going to take something seriously if everyone participating goes by a nickname which was probably invented to make you sound cooler than you actually are. I mean, why would you consider something legitimate if everybody participating is already in some sense fraudulent?
I agree. If you want an audience that is larger than the 14-24 male, hot-pocket eating crowd, you can't do things that only people in that crowd are likely to think are cool.
I used to let my kids watch the Day(9) dailies - they love his unit impersonations - but he's been cursing quite a bit lately and my wife has started to give me the "that's not appropriate for the children" look. This is a loss for e-sports. Parents encourage their kids to watch hockey, and to play hockey, and to idolize hockey players. As long as e-sports commentators and pros act like rebellious kids, few people outside that age bracket are going to find the sport accessible.
From my perspective as a 40ish fan who watches more than he plays and is in a position to encourage my children to be involved in e-sports, there is too much BM, and too much young male machismo from everyone involved in e-sports in NA. You can't say someone got 'raped', you can't say 'Bro'; if you're on camera you can't dress like you're in a grunge band, or haven't showed a week. InControl and Idra are funny to some, but I just can't see this type of personality taking e-sports into a full-blown sustainable scene. Once e-sports has been established, bad-boy types have a role to play, but until then, clean-cut professionalism MUST be the norm. Otherwise I just don't see e-sports ever being half as big as everyone hopes
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Calgary25997 Posts
On March 02 2011 12:38 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm... The issue is not that there is a social stigma. If that mattered, not nearly as many people would be willing to express their love of eSports. But if you look at something such as poker, it is more than just a game. I have watched poker for years, but watching the actual game play itself is very boring. The excitement comes from back-stories and getting people you can root for, right? Who would your root for between MoonShatter and sToPGoGo? You have no idea because those are just two guys in my ladder division. What about Lim Yo Hwan vs Kim Won Gi? Korea has made those more than just Slayers`Boxer vs TSL.Fruitdealer. You don't think that they might have been on to something by making the people more than their handles?
Your example doesn't make sense because you gave me two random IDs and then compared it to the most famous person in RTS history. You don't know who MoonShatter is. Great. If his name was Billy Friggly would you suddenly know who he was? No, of course you wouldn't. Ugh it jut makes zero sense.
I can give you the reverse: What about 김민수 vs 이수현? Wouldn't you rather root for X'Ds~Grrrr... and [GG99]Slayers?
I think you're aware that back-stories have nothing to do with IDs versus real names.
Edit: Your example makes no little sense that it's fucking hurting my brain thinking about. "Korea has made those more than just Slayers`Boxer vs TSL.Fruitdealer". Yea, and if you ask the average person here who Kim Won Gi is, they won't know. But if you ask them who Fruitdealer is, they will know his entire story. So what does this prove?
Edit 2: And to suggest this is the one thing we were missing to make this game boom. It's unfathomable to think you believe what you are writing. You are just sensationalizing a point of preference, and that's what's making this upset me so much.
Edit 3: Okay, so here's my summary: Using real names would make the scene slightly more professional. How much more professional? It's arguable. But it's somewhere between #100 and #1000 on the top 10,000 things that would make SC2 more professional. Saying it's #1 is retarded, and I can't express it any nicer than that.
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Calgary25997 Posts
On March 02 2011 12:53 RDon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm... Part of what the OP is getting at is that these two issues are related. Nobody is going to take something seriously if everyone participating goes by a nickname which was probably invented to make you sound cooler than you actually are. I mean, why would you consider something legitimate if everybody participating is already in some sense fraudulent? Yes, some professional athletes are known by their nicknames as much as or more than their actual name, but they didn't start their professional career with those nicknames. And they often didn't make them up themselves. Edit: yes, I may have overe generalized. By nobody, I mean in the general public. You get the idea... I have said many times before in these types of threads that everyone should just use their real name.
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000?
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First of all, how do you know that the fact that Koreans use real names has anything to do with the success of esports over there? It's likely more of a cultural thing.
Second, I think nicknames are more interesting because they actually say something about the person sense he's the one who picked it. To even consider that not using real names can turn off somebody is ridiculous.
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I like it when commentators call people by their IDs. Its so unique to e-sports.
I dont think we should sacrifice things like that. Its what makes up our community.
Most people will know others on SC and other communities solely through their handles. No other sport does this. Why lose things that we were brought up with to things like legitimacy and acceptance.
People outside the community should simply recognize it as a staple of what SC is about. I highly doubt that using people's real name effects things like that.
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eSports needs more sports jackets. Hoodies are holding us down!
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Solution:
Be like Ochocinco and lets all legally change our names to our tags, that way everyone is happy.
Although, I have no idea if underscores are allowed and it might be awkward for some people (I'm looking at you poopfeast420)
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I agree. If you want an audience that is larger than the 14-24 male, hot-pocket eating crowd, you can't do things that only people in that crowd are likely to think are cool.
I used to let my kids watch the Day(9) dailies - they love his unit impersonations - but he's been cursing quite a bit lately and my wife has started to give me the "that's not appropriate for the children" look. This is a loss for e-sports. Parents encourage their kids to watch hockey, and to play hockey, and to idolize hockey players. As long as e-sports commentators and pros act like rebellious kids, few people outside that age bracket are going to find the sport accessible.
From my perspective as a 40ish fan who watches more than he plays and is in a position to encourage my children to be involved in e-sports, there is too much BM, and too much young male machismo from everyone involved in e-sports in NA. You can't say someone got 'raped', you can't say 'Bro'; if you're on camera you can't dress like you're in a grunge band, or haven't showed a week. InControl and Idra are funny to some, but I just can't see this type of personality taking e-sports into a full-blown sustainable scene. Once e-sports has been established, bad-boy types have a role to play, but until then, clean-cut professionalism MUST be the norm. Otherwise I just don't see e-sports ever being half as big as everyone hopes
This is one of the truest things about e-sports I have ever read. I've always hated, HATED the word 'rape' being used in e-sports. (and other gaming communities too, if you've ever heard of Magic: The Gathering, that word is thrown around frequently there) If I heard that used before I got into the culture, I'd have been repulsed and probably never returned. And I AM the 14-24 male crowd (I don't eat hot pockets because I don't think they're in Australia).
How is the average joe ever going to give respect to someone like that? Regular sports have a pass on that to an extent because everyone already accepts it as part of popular culture. If we're going to get there, we need to be accessible. And using words like rape isn't going to get much respect from the people we need to win over.
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On March 02 2011 13:26 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +What exactly are you trying to argue here? That calling somebody by a different name gives me a greater insight into their personality? Or that ActionJesuz has hitherto-unrevealed powers of invisibility? No, he's saying that using an actual name for a guy, as they do in South Korea, makes them a person.
Yes, and I'm saying he's not making a very good case for it. Referring to ActionJesuz as ActionJesuz doesn't mean I'm suddenly unable to interpret his body language, or recognise that's he's a human being. Now if the OP was saying there's a problem when players frequently change handles, then he might have a point, as that would hinder them becoming more widely known. However, most western players stick fairly consistently to one name.
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I have two questions for the proposition:
1. Why are we talking as if the sport is on the cusp of hitting mainstream like it's the next MLS? (oh wait...)
2. How did 3D|Miller & NiP Christensen fair against 3D|ksharp and NiP HeatoN? And why is a certain zerg player Fields referred to as either "IdrA" or "Grack"?
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Calgary25997 Posts
On March 02 2011 13:47 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +I agree. If you want an audience that is larger than the 14-24 male, hot-pocket eating crowd, you can't do things that only people in that crowd are likely to think are cool.
I used to let my kids watch the Day(9) dailies - they love his unit impersonations - but he's been cursing quite a bit lately and my wife has started to give me the "that's not appropriate for the children" look. This is a loss for e-sports. Parents encourage their kids to watch hockey, and to play hockey, and to idolize hockey players. As long as e-sports commentators and pros act like rebellious kids, few people outside that age bracket are going to find the sport accessible.
From my perspective as a 40ish fan who watches more than he plays and is in a position to encourage my children to be involved in e-sports, there is too much BM, and too much young male machismo from everyone involved in e-sports in NA. You can't say someone got 'raped', you can't say 'Bro'; if you're on camera you can't dress like you're in a grunge band, or haven't showed a week. InControl and Idra are funny to some, but I just can't see this type of personality taking e-sports into a full-blown sustainable scene. Once e-sports has been established, bad-boy types have a role to play, but until then, clean-cut professionalism MUST be the norm. Otherwise I just don't see e-sports ever being half as big as everyone hopes This is one of the truest things about e-sports I have ever read. I've always hated, HATED the word 'rape' being used in e-sports. (and other gaming communities too, if you've ever heard of Magic: The Gathering, that word is thrown around frequently there) If I heard that used before I got into the culture, I'd have been repulsed and probably never returned. And I AM the 14-24 male crowd (I don't eat hot pockets because I don't think they're in Australia). How is the average joe ever going to give respect to someone like that? Regular sports have a pass on that to an extent because everyone already accepts it as part of popular culture. If we're going to get there, we need to be accessible. And using words like rape isn't going to get much respect from the people we need to win over.
Where is that from? It's very true.
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I have a terrible time remembering anyone's name... ever... but I still remember zero, stork, hiya, bisu, kiwikaki... but I honestly can't remember my teachers name... player ids are 1000x better IMO. Much more personalization and fun involved. Esports wouldn't be the same without gamer tags.
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the only problem i have with gamer tags is the consistency with which the players are being called by
ex: tester (liquidbet) aka TSL trickster (GSL name) and i believe tastosis calls him seo ki soo (real name)
that's already three different names that one person goes by
i believe a lot of koreans like to change their gamer tags, esp in BW
like the protoss player Kal always uses the gamer tag Goojila now a days
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A naming system that works for either case could be as follows:
John "Lethal" Smith.
You know his real name and his ID. In all of my clans we had our roster named like that. Considering from a spectator's point of view watching the game you will see his ID when the observer selects something so it is important for them to know that as well.
Even sports in the real world use nicknames.
King James - Lebron James
Sid the kid - Sidney Crosby
Air Jordan - Michael Jordan
Big Bambino - Babe Ruth
The Great One - Wayne Gretzky
The list can go on.
Think of this we go to a LAN for a TL meetup. You do not know their real names if you haven't met them before you will probably introduce yourself as your forum id. I would rather have people call me by my game id at a lan or other event with people from the community.
To make it mainstream, yes knowing their real name is a big bonus but we also do not have the websites that dedicate pages upon pages that are easy to access of every player with where they were born, when they were born. The TLPD is a huge step towards this but it is limited to the people who know about it and it is hard to access if you do not know how to use it.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Being at an MLG event is particularly surreal in this regard as you end up hearing things over a loudspeaker to the effect of "Stoner Thug Kush 69 to the Mountain Dew mainstage Dorito booth".
Chill is right on track though, this is #538 on the list of things that help legitimacy.
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On March 02 2011 11:46 don_kyuhote wrote:
I think there is an easy solution to make people call you by your real name.
Make your ID "gfkljwrdxk"
Rofl, I've heard that if you try to enter a GSL qualifier with an obviously troll ID like that, they will make you change it. It would be absolutely hilarious to see a commentator trying to pronounce that though. I would pay to see that happen.
It's hard to tell how much effect it has on the Korean pro scene, but I personally don't see a problem with just sticking to people's ID's at this point. Maybe if the SC2 pro scene outside of Korea becomes very big in the next couple of years, then we could start thinking about using their real names.
Those Korean commentators actually do say "Greg Fields" instead of "IdrA" and "Jonathan" instead of "Jinro" by the way.
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On March 02 2011 13:34 Chill wrote:
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000?
I'm sorry, Chill, but where did I say that? I'm trying to be mannered, but do not put words in my mouth. There is much that could be done above using people's names, I admit. It is just one of the things I wanted to get opinions on. For someone who holds a certain level of power on these boards, I would have hoped you wouldn't put down false accusations and condemnation.
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Calgary25997 Posts
On March 02 2011 15:02 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 13:34 Chill wrote:
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000? I'm sorry, Chill, but where did I say that? I'm trying to be mannered, but do not put words in my mouth. There is much that could be done above using people's names, I admit. It is just one of the things I wanted to get opinions on. For someone who holds a certain level of power on these boards, I would have hoped you wouldn't put down false accusations and condemnation.
"Real Names for eSports to Boom?"
How should I interprit that? "Real Names [and 999 other more important things first] for eSports to Boom?"?
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I use stylized last name for my gamertag so if I ever go pro, I got my bases covered on this issue.
I like the screen names though, it's like a stage name. Easy to remember and easily identifiable.
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On March 02 2011 13:33 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 12:38 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm... The issue is not that there is a social stigma. If that mattered, not nearly as many people would be willing to express their love of eSports. But if you look at something such as poker, it is more than just a game. I have watched poker for years, but watching the actual game play itself is very boring. The excitement comes from back-stories and getting people you can root for, right? Who would your root for between MoonShatter and sToPGoGo? You have no idea because those are just two guys in my ladder division. What about Lim Yo Hwan vs Kim Won Gi? Korea has made those more than just Slayers`Boxer vs TSL.Fruitdealer. You don't think that they might have been on to something by making the people more than their handles? Your example doesn't make sense because you gave me two random IDs and then compared it to the most famous person in RTS history. You don't know who MoonShatter is. Great. If his name was Billy Friggly would you suddenly know who he was? No, of course you wouldn't. Ugh it jut makes zero sense. I can give you the reverse: What about 김민수 vs 이수현? Wouldn't you rather root for X'Ds~Grrrr... and [GG99]Slayers? I think you're aware that back-stories have nothing to do with IDs versus real names. Edit: Your example makes no little sense that it's fucking hurting my brain thinking about. "Korea has made those more than just Slayers`Boxer vs TSL.Fruitdealer". Yea, and if you ask the average person here who Kim Won Gi is, they won't know. But if you ask them who Fruitdealer is, they will know his entire story. So what does this prove? Edit 2: And to suggest this is the one thing we were missing to make this game boom. It's unfathomable to think you believe what you are writing. You are just sensationalizing a point of preference, and that's what's making this upset me so much. Edit 3: Okay, so here's my summary: Using real names would make the scene slightly more professional. How much more professional? It's arguable. But it's somewhere between #100 and #1000 on the top 10,000 things that would make SC2 more professional. Saying it's #1 is retarded, and I can't express it any nicer than that.
Ya I stated this in my first response (the first response to this thread) so obviously I completely agree. He threw in body language and character like they came with the name. The exact same logic can be used in the opposite fashion?
Would you rather watch a game between Jack Stevenson and Stan Smith or a game between WhiteRa and TLO? Well clearly you would rather watch WhiteRa and TLO therefore using gamer names is the best method from this flawless logic.
I hope everyone can tell why that is flawed logic. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that backstory is important... NASL said it is a focus of theirs and they will include it, while MLG said they are looking into it because it has worked for them with Halo, but looking solely at real names vs gamer names is very irrelevant. As I mentioned in the first post as well, they can simply add it on while also using their gamer names, but I feel that if anything, someone choosing their own name rather than using the one they are born with will show more of their personality.
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On March 02 2011 14:55 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:46 don_kyuhote wrote:
I think there is an easy solution to make people call you by your real name.
Make your ID "gfkljwrdxk" Rofl, I've heard that if you try to enter a GSL qualifier with an obviously troll ID like that, they will make you change it. It would be absolutely hilarious to see a commentator trying to pronounce that though. I would pay to see that happen. It's hard to tell how much effect it has on the Korean pro scene, but I personally don't see a problem with just sticking to people's ID's at this point. Maybe if the SC2 pro scene outside of Korea becomes very big in the next couple of years, then we could start thinking about using their real names. Those Korean commentators actually do say "Greg Fields" instead of "IdrA" and "Jonathan" instead of "Jinro" by the way.
If you also notice Greg Fields and Jonathan aren't common names over there either...and to be really frank, Greg Fields is such a commonplace name. I mean, Tyler can get by with his sweet last name of Wasieleski, but how does a name like Greg Fields just stick to English speaker's brains?
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On March 02 2011 15:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:02 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 13:34 Chill wrote:
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000? I'm sorry, Chill, but where did I say that? I'm trying to be mannered, but do not put words in my mouth. There is much that could be done above using people's names, I admit. It is just one of the things I wanted to get opinions on. For someone who holds a certain level of power on these boards, I would have hoped you wouldn't put down false accusations and condemnation. "Real Names for eSports to Boom?" How should I interprit that? "Real Names [and 999 other more important things first] for eSports to Boom?"?
It's amazing how because I bring up one topic for discussion, you assume it is the ONLY topic for discussion in my mind. If you look at what Korea does for their players and what the west does, we are getting closer to being similar. Obviously there are a lot of differences still and a long way to go. What I don't understand is why you are getting so infuriated that you are resorting to cursing (a lot by the way) on just an idea. I asked what people thought. You don't think it is necessary, leave it at that.
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I could see that it might draw in more people who aren't really accepting of Esports, some people might see two gamertags facing each other and think oh its just some kids playing a game, but if they see two real names facing each other they might see it as more of a legitimate competition between those two players.
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On March 02 2011 15:11 phantaxx wrote:
I could see that it might draw in more people who aren't really accepting of Esports, some people might see two gamertags facing each other and think oh its just some kids playing a game, but if they see two real names facing each other they might see it as more of a legitimate competition between those two players.
To make the analogy to poker again, a player like Tom Dwan is huge in the online scene. His screen name is Durr or something along those lines. A lot of the time they will actually call him "Tom 'Durr' Dwan" which is very different than "This guy with the screen name 'Durr.'"
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
You are right on what being the bigger problem, but it can not be denied that the proposal of the OP would help to overcome the Social stigma, within the popular SC scene the names are mostly just funky, so we are doing okay there at least in the known names area[exempt the koreans... excrement anyone?],
When I see by accident some ESL cast of a shooter game, the commentator goes all nuts about "kilShot doing an amazing job" I as a grown gamer of 26 think to myself the little pooper needs to loose some spots and get a sense of reality, its not cool to be known and promoted as nerdcrusher48X. At least when you kind of getting famous switch it to something unique, non childish.
But yeah in general real names would help bringing the sport to none gamers but just as a side-effect its not THE thing that is holding us back. The reason why it is probably not conceived a big issue here on TL is thanks to our writers and people like JP, Wheat and Day[9] who never fail to go out of there way to introduce people just somewhere in the article or show as Jos [ret]de Kroon or Greg [Idra] Fields so I think the whole gaming world would profit if that is something that would be be picked up or being more enforced by other gaming news sites and also by other casters and tournament organisations.[yep I am looking at you Geoff, Husky, totalBiscuit, MLG, Dreamhack, NASL]
try not to make eSports big, try to make gaming accepted, here is one option, make your representatives play games...
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/beitrag/video/1269118/Spielstunde-im-Bundestag#/beitrag/video/1269118/Spielstunde-im-Bundestag
mousesports playing against politicians in the German parliament lobby.
so when is EG gone be going to a LAN in the Senat? make it happen, for eSports! + Show Spoiler +Please dont shoot me Chill.
EDIT:
On March 02 2011 15:05 The_LiNk wrote:
I use stylized last name for my gamertag so if I ever go pro, I got my bases covered on this issue.
I like the screen names though, it's like a stage name. Easy to remember and easily identifiable.
Thank you link that was what I had in my head but couldn't word it. Don't drop the tags make them stage names like boxing, wrestling, poker, its accepted and promoted there.
EDIT2:
On March 02 2011 13:57 SeeDLiNg wrote:
I have a terrible time remembering anyone's name... ever... but I still remember zero, stork, hiya, bisu, kiwikaki... but I honestly can't remember my teachers name... player ids are 1000x better IMO. Much more personalization and fun involved. Esports wouldn't be the same without gamer tags.
I wanna take this one in as well as I think the sense of personalization trough gamer tags is a good point.
Example: for the life of it I am trying to think of inControl's last name for the last 30 minutes.
but the clean cut professionalism that was demand earlier needs to kick in and we need more: "In the niiiine o'clooock position with the reeeeed pieces, it iiiiiss Geoff [iiiincontrol] Istilldon'tknow aaaand in the 12 o'clock position......" and so on and so fourth.
Chill you might wanna make that a point in the TSL caster meeting if there is such a thing, its not #1 on the list for sure, but I wouldn't list it in the triple diggits either.
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Calgary25997 Posts
On March 02 2011 15:10 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:05 Chill wrote:On March 02 2011 15:02 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 13:34 Chill wrote:
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000? I'm sorry, Chill, but where did I say that? I'm trying to be mannered, but do not put words in my mouth. There is much that could be done above using people's names, I admit. It is just one of the things I wanted to get opinions on. For someone who holds a certain level of power on these boards, I would have hoped you wouldn't put down false accusations and condemnation. "Real Names for eSports to Boom?" How should I interprit that? "Real Names [and 999 other more important things first] for eSports to Boom?"? It's amazing how because I bring up one topic for discussion, you assume it is the ONLY topic for discussion in my mind. If you look at what Korea does for their players and what the west does, we are getting closer to being similar. Obviously there are a lot of differences still and a long way to go. What I don't understand is why you are getting so infuriated that you are resorting to cursing (a lot by the way) on just an idea. I asked what people thought. You don't think it is necessary, leave it at that.
You didn't just ask what people thought, you crafted it as if you thought it was extremely important.
Why don't you respond to my retorts then?
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On March 02 2011 15:16 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:10 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 15:05 Chill wrote:On March 02 2011 15:02 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 13:34 Chill wrote:
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000? I'm sorry, Chill, but where did I say that? I'm trying to be mannered, but do not put words in my mouth. There is much that could be done above using people's names, I admit. It is just one of the things I wanted to get opinions on. For someone who holds a certain level of power on these boards, I would have hoped you wouldn't put down false accusations and condemnation. "Real Names for eSports to Boom?" How should I interprit that? "Real Names [and 999 other more important things first] for eSports to Boom?"? It's amazing how because I bring up one topic for discussion, you assume it is the ONLY topic for discussion in my mind. If you look at what Korea does for their players and what the west does, we are getting closer to being similar. Obviously there are a lot of differences still and a long way to go. What I don't understand is why you are getting so infuriated that you are resorting to cursing (a lot by the way) on just an idea. I asked what people thought. You don't think it is necessary, leave it at that. You didn't just ask what people thought, you crafted it as if you thought it was extremely important. Why don't you respond to my retorts then?
Alright, I will put it in plain words so there is no confusion.
Do I think that using players' actual names is the difference in making eSports mainstream or not?
Of course not.
Do I think that not only the Korean commentators do use names, but that the society of Korea identifies players by their names instead of their tags?
Absolutely.
Do I think that we have things to learn from the Korean way of doing things?
Undoubtedly. They have had the most success in the world on making it mainstream. Why would we think it is a good idea to be pig-headed and think we have nothing to learn from them? I am not saying that this name idea is the final piece to the missing puzzle, but I think it's like StarCraft itself. You gain all of these little advantages which leads up to an overwhelming lead. If we do lots of things to make it more accessible to the general audience, such as using their names, (in addition to other things) do you not think that it will add up to our goal of making it in the limelight?
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On March 02 2011 15:10 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:05 Chill wrote:On March 02 2011 15:02 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 13:34 Chill wrote:
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000? I'm sorry, Chill, but where did I say that? I'm trying to be mannered, but do not put words in my mouth. There is much that could be done above using people's names, I admit. It is just one of the things I wanted to get opinions on. For someone who holds a certain level of power on these boards, I would have hoped you wouldn't put down false accusations and condemnation. "Real Names for eSports to Boom?" How should I interprit that? "Real Names [and 999 other more important things first] for eSports to Boom?"? It's amazing how because I bring up one topic for discussion, you assume it is the ONLY topic for discussion in my mind. If you look at what Korea does for their players and what the west does, we are getting closer to being similar. Obviously there are a lot of differences still and a long way to go. What I don't understand is why you are getting so infuriated that you are resorting to cursing (a lot by the way) on just an idea. I asked what people thought. You don't think it is necessary, leave it at that.
It's amazing how you post a thread focusing on the player names, and then get surprised when people aren't expecting you to talk about other things. The responses have been directed at the topic that was brought up, not the topic that was brought up, plus any other irrelevant idea that you may want to bring up.
Edit: Irrelevant in the sense that it doesn't pertain to the original topic, not that it isn't important on its own.
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On March 02 2011 11:29 awu25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:25 iamke55 wrote:
Ha ha I'm quite sure 100% of Koreans know how to pronounce Jaedong. lol you're right that was a bad example, but any gamer tag that's not their korean name, they would probably have trouble pronouncing or remembering since they probably don't know what they mean
if they made the name... i'm pretty sure they know what it means / how to pronounce it
and about using RL names.... a no from me for now since SC2 (to me) is still a game, which has avatars, and people communicate and participate through their respective avatar.
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The ID tags or nicknames make the player more interesting. Do you ever wonder why singers, actors and actresses use screen names?
Barry Manilow - Barry Alan Pincus
Demi Moore - Demetria Guynes
Woody Allen - Allen Konigsberg
Michael Caine - Maurice Micklewhite
Just examples. :D
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Why is a Team Liquid admin arguing like this in a opinionated thread? Looks real professional.
User was warned for this post
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On March 02 2011 15:33 Ventor wrote:
Why is a Team Liquid admin arguing like this in a opinionated thread? Looks real professional.
Probably because he is a person who also has opinions, and he uses the site like other people do.
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Posting under a non-admin ID will probably give less of a bias toward his argument don't ya think? Derp.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 02 2011 15:09 hmsrenown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:55 Sein wrote:On March 02 2011 11:46 don_kyuhote wrote:
I think there is an easy solution to make people call you by your real name.
Make your ID "gfkljwrdxk" Rofl, I've heard that if you try to enter a GSL qualifier with an obviously troll ID like that, they will make you change it. It would be absolutely hilarious to see a commentator trying to pronounce that though. I would pay to see that happen. It's hard to tell how much effect it has on the Korean pro scene, but I personally don't see a problem with just sticking to people's ID's at this point. Maybe if the SC2 pro scene outside of Korea becomes very big in the next couple of years, then we could start thinking about using their real names. Those Korean commentators actually do say "Greg Fields" instead of "IdrA" and "Jonathan" instead of "Jinro" by the way. If you also notice Greg Fields and Jonathan aren't common names over there either...and to be really frank, Greg Fields is such a commonplace name. I mean, Tyler can get by with his sweet last name of Wasieleski, but how does a name like Greg Fields just stick to English speaker's brains?
Most of those Korean names sound the same way ("commonplace") to the Koreans as Greg Fields does to the English speakers.
I don't think common sounding names will be much of an issue once people get used to it, but like I said, I don't see anything wrong with just using the player's ID's at this point and I don't think it's a change that should be anywhere near the foreign pro scene's top priorities.
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On March 02 2011 15:33 Ventor wrote:
Why is a Team Liquid admin arguing like this in a opinionated thread? Looks real professional.
cause he cares, and he is right, the thread tittle and OP are worded in away that slightly over exaggerates things, not that it isn't a valid point.
so what's you're reason for that helpful and constructive on-topic post you fired out there
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On March 02 2011 15:37 Ventor wrote:
Posting under a non-admin ID will probably give less of a bias toward his argument don't ya think? Derp.
I don't think people will go against their own beliefs just to agree with an admin if that is what you are suggesting... there is no benefit in it.
Edit: Either way, I don't think people who are so weak minded that they can't come up with their own argument should be a reason for someone to not use their "main" name on the forums.
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On March 02 2011 15:37 Ventor wrote:
Posting under a non-admin ID will probably give less of a bias toward his argument don't ya think? Derp.
I want to make sure that I'm not being perceived as a troll, so I avoided posting this. But it really is astounding how an admin will blast a simple idea instead of just giving his opinion. It bothers me a lot how he put words into my mouth and used strong language. He has to understand that people will see that red name and have an automatic bias towards him, and more selfishly against me.
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for the record jaedong is his actual name
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On March 02 2011 15:41 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:37 Ventor wrote:
Posting under a non-admin ID will probably give less of a bias toward his argument don't ya think? Derp. I want to make sure that I'm not being perceived as a troll, so I avoided posting this. But it really is astounding how an admin will blast a simple idea instead of just giving his opinion. It bothers me a lot how he put words into my mouth and used strong language. He has to understand that people will see that red name and have an automatic bias towards him, and more selfishly against me.
How did he put words in your mouth? You said this in your OP.
If you take a look at the Korean eSports scene, there is one of the big difference in the marketing of it all.
That difference is that they use the players' actual names instead of only their tag.
So he responded with this.
On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
He clearly implied that commentators calling people by their IDs is not important which was undoubtedly your focus...
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On March 02 2011 15:39 Ojahh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:33 Ventor wrote:
Why is a Team Liquid admin arguing like this in a opinionated thread? Looks real professional. cause he cares, and he is right, the thread tittle and OP are worded in away that slightly over exaggerates things, not that it isn't a valid point. so what's you're reason for that helpful and constructive on-topic post you fired out there
From what I've seen from a few posters is that the problem is with the syntax of my topic's title? Are you kidding me? You can see by my post count that I don't have much experience on this board. Instead of saying, "I don't think that this is needed at this time. Also, you should be more careful with your topic titles in the future," I get accosted by an admin. I view these boards a lot, have been ever since I found out about them over a year ago. I realize that it isn't much time compared to a lot of people here, but... I dunno. I think there was a better way for it to have been handled.
That being said, this has gone way off topic.
My points are simple. I think that it is something that I haven't heard a discussion about. I think it is something to consider. I think using peoples' names instead of, or even alongside, would help the general public accept eSports in general. There are many things that can be done, but since I hadn't seen a thread about it (and I even used the search function, as per the forum rules) I wanted to let people know my thoughts on the matter and get some feedback in return.
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On March 02 2011 11:35 CarlCaliente wrote:
Does anyone remember CAL circa 2005? 3D | Sievers, NIP Christensen???
Made no difference to the outside world and just make the league look ridiculous to the existing community.
I was about to say this aswell. This has been tried out far before many of the people around here have gotten in touch with eSports. And didn't change anything.
And it is even counter-productive. Nicknames are our identity in eSports. Take it away, and you wash away the identity of eSports.
Brazilian and Portuguese football players play almost exclusively under nicknames, and it doesn't hurt their popularity in the slightest.
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Osaka27172 Posts
On March 02 2011 15:41 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:37 Ventor wrote:
Posting under a non-admin ID will probably give less of a bias toward his argument don't ya think? Derp. I want to make sure that I'm not being perceived as a troll, so I avoided posting this. But it really is astounding how an admin will blast a simple idea instead of just giving his opinion. It bothers me a lot how he put words into my mouth and used strong language. He has to understand that people will see that red name and have an automatic bias towards him, and more selfishly against me.
People can think for themselves. If a red name bends someone's will, they are not the people that matter anyway.
Your words convey your message. If your message was not what you intended, change your words.
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On March 02 2011 15:33 Ventor wrote:
Why is a Team Liquid admin arguing like this in a opinionated thread? Looks real professional.
So being an admin means you can't have opinions anymore?
Quite frankly I think this is a non issue, the use of real names that is. I keep reading comparisons to Korea and poker. This is not Korea. This is not poker. This is sc2 in the west. I have absolutely no relation to Kevin Riley the person, but I love to watch QXC play sc2. If a commentator is calling him Kevin, which he is less recognized as, I think it would be doing a disservice. Players are known by their ID's on battlenet. I only know a handful of player's actual names. I really don't see how it would be any more important or professional by calling them by their real names.
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If names became more common, then I wouldn't get to hear Korean commentators say "Leekid chiiiiinro!!!!!!!!!!"
On the other hand, if there was ever a famously good player to rise up that went by a horribly immature ID... that could be kinda problematic.
Ultimately, even though I think Chill really needs to chill out, he's right in that there are other more important ways to legitimize e-sports (I'd say: get bigger/more mainstream sponsors)
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On March 02 2011 15:50 jmbthirteen wrote:
Quite frankly I think this is a non issue, the use of real names that is. I keep reading comparisons to Korea and poker. This is not Korea. This is not poker. This is sc2 in the west. I have absolutely no relation to Kevin Riley the person, but I love to watch QXC play sc2. If a commentator is calling him Kevin, which he is less recognized as, I think it would be doing a disservice. Players are known by their ID's on battlenet. I only know a handful of player's actual names. I really don't see how it would be any more important or professional by calling them by their real names.
You are looking at it from the eyes of someone from within the community already. This is all about making it more accessible for people outside of the community. If StarCraft were on western TV, and qxc was playing and the caster referred to him as "Kevin 'qxc' Riley" that wouldn't matter to you in the long run. You know who he is and you have identified him as the player that he is. However, if the caster only called him "qxc," someone from the general public wouldn't necessarily get it, right? I fully admit that a lot of that is back story, something I am very happy to hear is starting to be addressed. But I do believe that it would help to have actual human names in there, too, for those that aren't in the loop.
Edit: Mod, if you would please change the title of the thread to "Real Names to Help eSports?" Thanks.
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On March 02 2011 15:29 Keitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:29 awu25 wrote:On March 02 2011 11:25 iamke55 wrote:
Ha ha I'm quite sure 100% of Koreans know how to pronounce Jaedong. lol you're right that was a bad example, but any gamer tag that's not their korean name, they would probably have trouble pronouncing or remembering since they probably don't know what they mean if they made the name... i'm pretty sure they know what it means / how to pronounce it and about using RL names.... a no from me for now since SC2 (to me) is still a game, which has avatars, and people communicate and participate through their respective avatar.
i was talking about korean fans
they won't know bisu but they'll know kim taek yong
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I'd hardly say that using real names will make e-sports more important.
About the only Korean name that sticks in my head is Lim Jae Duck and that's just because of the Duck.
I can remember the English names a better, but I don't know half the players' names. However I do know the players, just not their names. The names aren't one of the things I would do to help e-sports because it's harder to feel like you are on a 1st name basis with the players instead of just knowing their nickname. Even in sports, they have the numbers, which are kind of like a nickname. You might not know or care the name of #17 on some random NBA team, but you will be able to easily see the number and see the player, and if you care, find out his name.
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On March 02 2011 16:00 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:50 jmbthirteen wrote:
Quite frankly I think this is a non issue, the use of real names that is. I keep reading comparisons to Korea and poker. This is not Korea. This is not poker. This is sc2 in the west. I have absolutely no relation to Kevin Riley the person, but I love to watch QXC play sc2. If a commentator is calling him Kevin, which he is less recognized as, I think it would be doing a disservice. Players are known by their ID's on battlenet. I only know a handful of player's actual names. I really don't see how it would be any more important or professional by calling them by their real names. You are looking at it from the eyes of someone from within the community already. This is all about making it more accessible for people outside of the community. If StarCraft were on western TV, and qxc was playing and the caster referred to him as "Kevin 'qxc' Riley" that wouldn't matter to you in the long run. You know who he is and you have identified him as the player that he is. However, if the caster only called him "qxc," someone from the general public wouldn't necessarily get it, right? I fully admit that a lot of that is back story, something I am very happy to hear is starting to be addressed. But I do believe that it would help to have actual human names in there, too, for those that aren't in the loop.
I just don't think it would change anything, I don't think anyone who isn't in the community would be turned on or off by using his real name. Until sc2 I wasn't a big gamer at all. I mean I played video games, but never got into pro gaming whatsoever. My roommate got me into sc2, showed me hd and husky and it grew from there. I got into the scene, became fans of players only knowing their sc2 ID's. Knowing their real names would not have gotten me into the scene any sooner.
It's not like the name is everything. Its just an ID. Players become popular because of how good they are, how entertaining they are, and their style of play. Nothing about using a real name would improve that.
To bring outsiders into the scene, they need to be shown how excited sc2 can be. Not that John Smith plays it.
EDIT: Plus the whole Korean thing doesn't make sense here because in Korea, its been established like that. Here it is not. I think it would just lead to more confusion.
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On March 02 2011 16:08 jmbthirteen wrote:
EDIT: Plus the whole Korean thing doesn't make sense here because in Korea, its been established like that. Here it is not. I think it would just lead to more confusion.
How would it lead to more confusion?
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Canada11495 Posts
I think part of the problem with using real names is just how international e-sports is. As a foreigner I can't read the Korean alphabet. So then we have the anglicized names. I don't know about you, but because I didn't grow up with that many Koreans, I'm not familiar with their naming conditions. My eyes kind of blue a list of Korean names together and they all become rather indistinct 'foreign names.' I'm sure I'm not the only one
Look at these two lists:
Jung Myung Hoon
Lee Jae Dong
Song Byung Goo
Kim Taek Yong
Shin Dong Won
Cha Myung Hwan
Lee Young Ho
Fantasy
Jaedong
Stork
Bisu
Hydra
Great
Flash
As an English speaker, which of these lists are more easily recognizable? I can handle Jaedong because it's in amongst a lot of English handles and is therefore distinct. All the other names are pretty indistinct- except maybe Song Byung Goo (thanks to that one white guy Daniel?)
The same would happen if you got a bunch of Russian gamers in there etc. If you haven't grown up with names, it's hard to remember. Probably the Russians will know the real names for the Russian players. Just like I am much more likely to remember that Jinro's name is Jonathan and Idra is Greg.
I'm not sure that having nick names is necessarily the problem so much as the gamers themselves choosing unprofessional/ non-mainstream nicknames. From chatspeak teh_pwnrer to the nicknames used to troll Artosis' interview, 4:20 jokes etc.
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Isn't it a must to have nicknames atleast until a player makes it big? Because, how else would you know which Jon Johnsson you are talking about, or playing against?
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On March 02 2011 16:19 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:08 jmbthirteen wrote:
EDIT: Plus the whole Korean thing doesn't make sense here because in Korea, its been established like that. Here it is not. I think it would just lead to more confusion. How would it lead to more confusion?
They are already known by their sc2 ID's. Sure for new people they aren't known, but you cannot abandon the established scene in the west, which is driving eSports to become even bigger, which knows them as TLO, White-Ra, QXC and so on.
And Falling raises a great point as well. eSports is international, whether is be USA, Korea, Germany, and so on. It's much easier to go by their sc2 ID which can be translated and easily pronounced.
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All arguments aside... I do feel that for the presentation of esports to a broader audience, real names should be used. I love internet and gaming culture as much as the next guy. However, you will not be taken seriously if you only use game nicknames. To a general audience, that further detracts from the legitimacy of esports. It would just be percieved as just a video game and not a professional legitimate sport.
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On March 02 2011 16:33 Tokay wrote:
Isn't it a must to have nicknames atleast until a player makes it big? Because, how else would you know which Jon Johnsson you are talking about, or playing against?
That would just require a shift in how casters present data. Most tournaments going on are invitationals. It would be super simple to add their name to the database for the player. As simple as that.
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 02 2011 16:19 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:08 jmbthirteen wrote:
EDIT: Plus the whole Korean thing doesn't make sense here because in Korea, its been established like that. Here it is not. I think it would just lead to more confusion. How would it lead to more confusion?
The starcraft scene is biggest in Korea, and you think using player's real names will encourage support from the wider community?
While everyone is entitled to their opinion; i cannot see my friends being more interested Lee Young Ho than they would be in Flash ..
Also, don't take people's disagreement so personally..
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On March 02 2011 16:37 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:33 Tokay wrote:
Isn't it a must to have nicknames atleast until a player makes it big? Because, how else would you know which Jon Johnsson you are talking about, or playing against? That would just require a shift in how casters present data. Most tournaments going on are invitationals. It would be super simple to add their name to the database for the player. As simple as that.
I'm not just talking about on a high-level. I mean if you ladder, everyone can't go with their real name, since people has the same names.
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On March 02 2011 16:36 kky wrote:
All arguments aside... I do feel that for the presentation of esports to a broader audience, real names should be used. I love internet and gaming culture as much as the next guy. However, you will not be taken seriously if you only use game nicknames. To a general audience, that further detracts from the legitimacy of esports. It would just be percieved as just a video game and not a professional legitimate sport.
Why? I do not get this argument at all. I just don't think it is true at all.
I've talked to my dad about how big pro gaming is becoming and not once did he think it wasn't legitimate because they go by nicknames. The money and sponsors behind the tournaments make something legitimate, not the nicknames or the real names.
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One key thing that needs to happen is we need to stop referring to it as e-sports. To all of us, we get it and it makes sense right away. To others, the people we NEED to bring in to grow this to what we all know it can be e-sports is a confusing term.
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On March 02 2011 16:41 MLGrben wrote:
One key thing that needs to happen is we need to stop referring to it as e-sports. To all of us, we get it and it makes sense right away. To others, the people we NEED to bring in to grow this to what we all know it can be e-sports is a confusing term.
What should it be called?
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On March 02 2011 16:40 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:36 kky wrote:
All arguments aside... I do feel that for the presentation of esports to a broader audience, real names should be used. I love internet and gaming culture as much as the next guy. However, you will not be taken seriously if you only use game nicknames. To a general audience, that further detracts from the legitimacy of esports. It would just be percieved as just a video game and not a professional legitimate sport. Why? I do not get this argument at all. I just don't think it is true at all. I've talked to my dad about how big pro gaming is becoming and not once did he think it wasn't legitimate because they go by nicknames. The money and sponsors behind the tournaments make something legitimate, not the nicknames or the real names.
It's not the thing that is holding esports back. However, it would be a nice touch to use real names is all I'm saying. You have to realize that outside of the hardcore internet/gaming community, which most people are, games names (ranging from thedestroyer to day[9]) look ridiculous. Think of anything "professional" and notice that real names are predominately used. You would never go to a meeting and introduce yourself by anything other than your real name. I have no problems with gaming names as I've been in this community for as long as I can remember. I just think that for the sake of presenting esports to the public we have to get over this part of our culture and present ourselves professionally.
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Right, let's look at the word "IDentity". Yeah, just look at it.
IDENTITY.
A name is irrelevant if people don't know you by it. I agree there's a difference between calling out a real name and an ID - the real name seems more personal. But I really don't care for commentators even trying to pronounce Oleksiy Krupnyk. And I don't wonna hear Nick De Cesare when I wonna think of some honey hazel eyes and a toned body with italian-olive skin.
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On March 02 2011 16:45 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:41 MLGrben wrote:
One key thing that needs to happen is we need to stop referring to it as e-sports. To all of us, we get it and it makes sense right away. To others, the people we NEED to bring in to grow this to what we all know it can be e-sports is a confusing term. What should it be called?
At MLG we call it competitive gaming and seem to have better response. Still not sure that is the right thing.
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On March 02 2011 16:49 kky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:40 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 02 2011 16:36 kky wrote:
All arguments aside... I do feel that for the presentation of esports to a broader audience, real names should be used. I love internet and gaming culture as much as the next guy. However, you will not be taken seriously if you only use game nicknames. To a general audience, that further detracts from the legitimacy of esports. It would just be percieved as just a video game and not a professional legitimate sport. Why? I do not get this argument at all. I just don't think it is true at all. I've talked to my dad about how big pro gaming is becoming and not once did he think it wasn't legitimate because they go by nicknames. The money and sponsors behind the tournaments make something legitimate, not the nicknames or the real names. It's not the thing that is holding esports back. However, it would be a nice touch to use real names is all I'm saying. You have to realize that outside of the hardcore internet/gaming community, which most people are, games names (ranging from thedestroyer to day[9]) look ridiculous. Think of anything "professional" and notice that real names are predominately used. You would never go to a meeting and introduce yourself by anything other than your real name. I have no problems with gaming names as I've been in this community for as long as I can remember. I just think that for the sake of presenting esports to the public we have to get over this part of our culture and present ourselves professionally.
Stop trying to make pro gaming something it isn't. It is not a board meeting. It is a video game. And thats not a bad thing. Millions of people have these ID's that they go by, whether its on battlenet, xbox live, or something else. It's not like this is a foreign concept to people. Its one that many understand.
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On March 02 2011 16:39 Tokay wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:37 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 16:33 Tokay wrote:
Isn't it a must to have nicknames atleast until a player makes it big? Because, how else would you know which Jon Johnsson you are talking about, or playing against? That would just require a shift in how casters present data. Most tournaments going on are invitationals. It would be super simple to add their name to the database for the player. As simple as that. I'm not just talking about on a high-level. I mean if you ladder, everyone can't go with their real name, since people has the same names.
1) I counted 54 people with accounts named "IdrA" on sc2ranks.com. That is why they did the character codes.
2) That's not what I was suggesting. I don't have a problem with people having their tags. The discussion has be about whether casters and tournament organizers should or should not include real names with or without the tags.
After reading through the posts here, I like the idea of doing both together like "Sean 'Day[9]' Plott." Which, by the way, is how he is referred to a lot, and look at him. He is more than just some random behind a computer. There are many factors that have made him the personality that he is, but I have introduced many people to eSports through his #100 daily, and although it might not be a huge part by any means, giving his name has helped.
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On March 02 2011 16:53 MLGrben wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:45 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 02 2011 16:41 MLGrben wrote:
One key thing that needs to happen is we need to stop referring to it as e-sports. To all of us, we get it and it makes sense right away. To others, the people we NEED to bring in to grow this to what we all know it can be e-sports is a confusing term. What should it be called? At MLG we call it competitive gaming and seem to have better response. Still not sure that is the right thing.
After I posted I was thinking and I do believe professional gaming is a better term, especially to new or potential fans.
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On March 02 2011 16:56 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:39 Tokay wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 16:33 Tokay wrote:
Isn't it a must to have nicknames atleast until a player makes it big? Because, how else would you know which Jon Johnsson you are talking about, or playing against? That would just require a shift in how casters present data. Most tournaments going on are invitationals. It would be super simple to add their name to the database for the player. As simple as that. I'm not just talking about on a high-level. I mean if you ladder, everyone can't go with their real name, since people has the same names. 1) I counted 54 people with accounts named "IdrA" on sc2ranks.com. That is why they did the character codes. 2) That's not what I was suggesting. I don't have a problem with people having their tags. The discussion has be about whether casters and tournament organizers should or should not include real names with or without the tags. After reading through the posts here, I like the idea of doing both together like "Sean 'Day[9]' Plott." Which, by the way, is how he is referred to a lot, and look at him. He is more than just some random behind a computer. There are many factors that have made him the personality that he is, but I have introduced many people to eSports through his #100 daily, and although it might not be a huge part by any means, giving his name has helped.
Ah, my bad. Missed the part that this was only about tournaments.
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On March 02 2011 16:56 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:39 Tokay wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 16:33 Tokay wrote:
Isn't it a must to have nicknames atleast until a player makes it big? Because, how else would you know which Jon Johnsson you are talking about, or playing against? That would just require a shift in how casters present data. Most tournaments going on are invitationals. It would be super simple to add their name to the database for the player. As simple as that. I'm not just talking about on a high-level. I mean if you ladder, everyone can't go with their real name, since people has the same names. 1) I counted 54 people with accounts named "IdrA" on sc2ranks.com. That is why they did the character codes. 2) That's not what I was suggesting. I don't have a problem with people having their tags. The discussion has be about whether casters and tournament organizers should or should not include real names with or without the tags. After reading through the posts here, I like the idea of doing both together like "Sean 'Day[9]' Plott." Which, by the way, is how he is referred to a lot, and look at him. He is more than just some random behind a computer. There are many factors that have made him the personality that he is, but I have introduced many people to eSports through his #100 daily, and although it might not be a huge part by any means, giving his name has helped.
If a person gets big enough, then of course he will be known by his real name. Sean 'Day [9]' Plott just may be the most recognized person in the sc2 scene. He also brands himself that way. If he were to just refer to himself as just Day [9], then thats what he would most commonly be referred to as.
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8751 Posts
On March 02 2011 16:49 kky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:40 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 02 2011 16:36 kky wrote:
All arguments aside... I do feel that for the presentation of esports to a broader audience, real names should be used. I love internet and gaming culture as much as the next guy. However, you will not be taken seriously if you only use game nicknames. To a general audience, that further detracts from the legitimacy of esports. It would just be percieved as just a video game and not a professional legitimate sport. Why? I do not get this argument at all. I just don't think it is true at all. I've talked to my dad about how big pro gaming is becoming and not once did he think it wasn't legitimate because they go by nicknames. The money and sponsors behind the tournaments make something legitimate, not the nicknames or the real names. It's not the thing that is holding esports back. However, it would be a nice touch to use real names is all I'm saying. You have to realize that outside of the hardcore internet/gaming community, which most people are, games names (ranging from thedestroyer to day[9]) look ridiculous. Think of anything "professional" and notice that real names are predominately used. You would never go to a meeting and introduce yourself by anything other than your real name. I have no problems with gaming names as I've been in this community for as long as I can remember. I just think that for the sake of presenting esports to the public we have to get over this part of our culture and present ourselves professionally.
Nicknames have worked for musicians and bands.
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I honestly like nicknames better. They are hand picked by the player. That is who he/she wants to be known as. If they want to be known as John Smith, they can make that their ID.
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Just show first name "nickname" last name and let people pick how do they want to call them, nicknames usually roll off the tongue better. Jinro can be said way faster than Jonathan...
Koreans refer to their players by their whole name, the rest of the world uses way more complicated names and calling TLO Daro Wünsch every single time is just asking for a awkward moment when you say it wrong.
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On March 02 2011 15:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:02 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 13:34 Chill wrote:
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000? I'm sorry, Chill, but where did I say that? I'm trying to be mannered, but do not put words in my mouth. There is much that could be done above using people's names, I admit. It is just one of the things I wanted to get opinions on. For someone who holds a certain level of power on these boards, I would have hoped you wouldn't put down false accusations and condemnation. "Real Names for eSports to Boom?" How should I interprit that? "Real Names [and 999 other more important things first] for eSports to Boom?"?
In his defense you're splitting hairs here. The topic title is misleading and I don't think he intended it to be how you interpreted it, but I think it is an issue that should be thought about. I was actually pondering this question the other day. It's not so much about making e-sports boom I think, but legitimizing the players and just removing the curtain of a computer. To your point I think that removing the handles, or rather putting much more emphasis on real names would do much to remove that social stigma. Listen to the State of the Game, they''re all on a first name basis, and don't often refer to each other by their handles. I don't think it would do much of anything to "further e-sports" but it would do a lot to make a greater personal connection between the audience and players so players aren't just anonymous ids.
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On March 02 2011 17:01 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:49 kky wrote:On March 02 2011 16:40 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 02 2011 16:36 kky wrote:
All arguments aside... I do feel that for the presentation of esports to a broader audience, real names should be used. I love internet and gaming culture as much as the next guy. However, you will not be taken seriously if you only use game nicknames. To a general audience, that further detracts from the legitimacy of esports. It would just be percieved as just a video game and not a professional legitimate sport. Why? I do not get this argument at all. I just don't think it is true at all. I've talked to my dad about how big pro gaming is becoming and not once did he think it wasn't legitimate because they go by nicknames. The money and sponsors behind the tournaments make something legitimate, not the nicknames or the real names. It's not the thing that is holding esports back. However, it would be a nice touch to use real names is all I'm saying. You have to realize that outside of the hardcore internet/gaming community, which most people are, games names (ranging from thedestroyer to day[9]) look ridiculous. Think of anything "professional" and notice that real names are predominately used. You would never go to a meeting and introduce yourself by anything other than your real name. I have no problems with gaming names as I've been in this community for as long as I can remember. I just think that for the sake of presenting esports to the public we have to get over this part of our culture and present ourselves professionally. Nicknames have worked for musicians and bands.
Looks like Tyler just ended this thread.
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A lot of people in the community are already known by First name "Nickname" Last name.
Sean "Day[9]" Plott
Nick "Tasteless" Plott
Geoff "Incontrol" Robinson
Greg "Idra" Fields
The nickname IS a part of e-Sports however, so I think it would be detrimental for e-Sports to only do real names. There's also other sports where this is followed, just off the top of my head:
UFC fighter Chuck "The Iceman" Liddel.
Personally, I think the nicknames add more to the players and some people have stories about their nicknames and they can show their personality.
But, beyond this debate, I think that e-Sports will boom no matter how we identify the players. Personally, I think it's much better with the id's though, and that's one thing that makes e-Sports more unique, and it is something that is a part of it's history. In no way do I think we should move away from it.
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On March 02 2011 17:26 HeadDesk wrote:
A lot of people in the community are already known by First name "Nickname" Last name.
Sean "Day[9]" Plott
Nick "Tasteless" Plott
Geoff "Incontrol" Robinson
Greg "Idra" Fields
The nickname IS a part of e-Sports however, so I think it would be detrimental for e-Sports to only do real names. There's also other sports where this is followed, just off the top of my head:
UFC fighter Chuck "The Iceman" Liddel.
Personally, I think the nicknames add more to the players and some people have stories about their nicknames and they can show their personality.
But, beyond this debate, I think that e-Sports will boom no matter how we identify the players. Personally, I think it's much better with the id's though, and that's one thing that makes e-Sports more unique, and it is something that is a part of it's history. In no way do I think we should move away from it.
you forget 1
Tyler "Liquid`Tyler" Wasieleski
Goodluck with the commentator who needs to speak that name out loud.
but i think its fun to know the players real name, but the fact that you are there on a lan or watching @ home is, imo, the big difference.
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Canada11495 Posts
On March 02 2011 17:08 Zaphid wrote:
Just show first name "nickname" last name and let people pick how do they want to call them, nicknames usually roll off the tongue better. Jinro can be said way faster than Jonathan...
Very much this- and however the hell you say Tyler's last name. Sorry Tyler, it's a great name, but I just always read it as 'Wa... that-Polish-looking-name'... ski'
With real names you get a wide array of ethnic names, some easier to pronounce than others. nicknames, if the gamer is smart is shorter and rolls of the tongue easier. They can also give personality. I jUsT rEaLy HaTe id's tHaT aRe SpElt liKe tHis. Don't do that, please.
But I mean, MarineKing naming himself because of his use of marines? That's pretty awesome (and that he'd be called OptimusPrime if he ever won.)
Bisu, which means dagger was perfect as he was the ninja Protoss with his Dark Templar play PvZ.
Granted the Koreans can come up with some absolutely terrible names... HopeTorture, I'm looking at you. Or my absolute favourite. KT Finger Boom... didn't last long fortunately. (I think it was supposed to mean Lightening Fingers or some such.)
However, on the whole I think nicknames are a good thing. And it's not as though this is a business meeting. It's much more similar to sports, or music and movies (entertainment) and as others have noted the entertainment industry also have have nicknames or rename themselves just as much.
Bob Dylan? or Robert Zimmerman.
Alice Cooper? or Vincent Furnier.
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I think of it like professional wrestling, the wrestlers have a real name and a their nickname (usually multiple nicknames in fact). Both have their place to be used, but the nicknames are how you identify them..... Most who do get called by their "real name" aren't actually using a real name but are using one they made up or was given to them that sounds better than their real name......
Bret Hart is a name every wrestling fan knows, but many refer to him simply as "The Hitman". However someone like Shawn Michaels is known as many many things, his real name however is Michael Hickenbottom. There are many wrestlers however that are ONLY known by the nickname, The Big Show, Edge, Gold Dust etc. These people are known the world over simply by a nickname, while their real names are no secret, hardly anyone uses them.
Wrestling is completely fake, we all know that, the winners are pre-determined and the rivalries are all just for the camera (with a few exceptions). That fact has never stopped it gettting millions of people watching every single week, from children to OAPs. Wrestling is accepted as a profession and accepted as something worth watching by a large population, there are also a whole population who hate it and think it shouldn't be on TV........
Esports are real, the winners and rivalries are real, the only thing thats missing is social acceptance. I doubt anyone cares whether real names are used or not, gamers are seen by much of the world as lazy and lacking ambition. We need to show them that's not true, then we can set the terms. I have always known gamer friends by their online nicks, even the ones I get to know really well and know their real names.... i still use their nick, because that is the expression of their personality they wish to portray.
Another thing i feel is that commentators in real sports often mangle foreign players names, or try to pronounce them as if they are a native to the country...... using nicks usually negates this. Some European and Asians have really hard names to pronouce, hell even Tyler has a pretty hard name to pronouce and he is from NA!
Anywho, names aren't whats holding back esports. I'm not even sure that social acceptance is whats holding it back anymore. I'm not convinced that if SC2 was shown on TV in the west that it would get the viewers to warrant being on TV. In the UK for instance, I don't see SC2 getting more than 20k maybe 30k viewers..... there simply aren't enough players or spectators here.
IEM had a peak of roughly 25k viewers for SC2 yesterday, thats worldwide, and thats simply not enough to warrant a TV show. For esports to grow beyond where they are today, the viewerbase has to grow out to people who don't play the game.
Most sports are watched by millions of people who either don't play the game at all, haven't played in years or play it only casually. Thats what esports needs, a viewerbase of non-players that is much larger than the playerbase. All sports have that, all esports don't.
I have introduced my self as Emy for years, in real life, before that I was always intorduced by my old bands nickname for me, Switch. Its never stopped me getting a gig, or a girl.
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The key in getting into any sport as an enthusiastic fan lies in sympathy and a feeling of familiarity with the teams or persons playing, understanding the subtleties or playing the game yourself comes in second place.
Players have fans, not eSports, and not Starcraft. Focus should be on the players, a background story, drama, whatever. Their real name is just a little part of knowing them. Commentators like Day9 or Tastosis who focus on the background and building a story around the gamers are doing a great job.
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On March 02 2011 18:23 Mulletarian wrote:
The key in getting into any sport as an enthusiastic fan lies in sympathy and a feeling of familiarity with the teams or persons playing, understanding the subtleties or playing the game yourself comes in second place.
Players have fans, not eSports, and not Starcraft. Focus should be on the players, a background story, drama, whatever. Their real name is just a little part of knowing them. Commentators like Day9 or Tastosis who focus on the background and building a story around the gamers are doing a great job.
I disagree really... what is all this talk recently about stories and drama, the NASL mentioned it too... 'stories' are created by the gamers as they play each other, we never needed to know any background or outside of the game shit in BW to make it interesting.
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
agents destroying PM functions hinders esports to great extents
User was warned for this post
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I've always wondered why the hell do foreigners translate the names to something silly. Like Fruitdealer. His ID isn't Fruitdealer. It's something in Korean. I never understood this part. Is it too hard to transliterate the IDs?
But I don't see how knowing players by their names instead of their IDs would be beneficial in any way. People like nicknames and it's probably easier to remember something like Boxer in comparison to the Korean names that well... are kind of hard to remember...
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On March 02 2011 13:26 NicolBolas wrote:
No, he's saying that using an actual name for a guy, as they do in South Korea, makes them a person.
For me a korean name feels as made up as most of their nicknames...As goes with other non-scandinavian/english names. And for this reason I feel like quoting Shakespare;
What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
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No wonder Tyler changed his name from Nony!
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On March 02 2011 22:37 Poocs wrote:
I've always wondered why the hell do foreigners translate the names to something silly. Like Fruitdealer. His ID isn't Fruitdealer. It's something in Korean. I never understood this part. Is it too hard to transliterate the IDs?
But I don't see how knowing players by their names instead of their IDs would be beneficial in any way. People like nicknames and it's probably easier to remember something like Boxer in comparison to the Korean names that well... are kind of hard to remember...
uh HUH! Since its so easy for you to translate his name, can you tell us what his ID is if not fruitdealer?
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On March 02 2011 17:37 Skrelt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 17:26 HeadDesk wrote:
A lot of people in the community are already known by First name "Nickname" Last name.
Sean "Day[9]" Plott
Nick "Tasteless" Plott
Geoff "Incontrol" Robinson
Greg "Idra" Fields
The nickname IS a part of e-Sports however, so I think it would be detrimental for e-Sports to only do real names. There's also other sports where this is followed, just off the top of my head:
UFC fighter Chuck "The Iceman" Liddel.
Personally, I think the nicknames add more to the players and some people have stories about their nicknames and they can show their personality.
But, beyond this debate, I think that e-Sports will boom no matter how we identify the players. Personally, I think it's much better with the id's though, and that's one thing that makes e-Sports more unique, and it is something that is a part of it's history. In no way do I think we should move away from it. you forget 1 Tyler "Liquid`Tyler" Wasieleski Goodluck with the commentator who needs to speak that name out loud. but i think its fun to know the players real name, but the fact that you are there on a lan or watching @ home is, imo, the big difference.
Why do people think Polish names are so hard to pronounce? 
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On March 02 2011 22:57 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 22:37 Poocs wrote:
I've always wondered why the hell do foreigners translate the names to something silly. Like Fruitdealer. His ID isn't Fruitdealer. It's something in Korean. I never understood this part. Is it too hard to transliterate the IDs?
But I don't see how knowing players by their names instead of their IDs would be beneficial in any way. People like nicknames and it's probably easier to remember something like Boxer in comparison to the Korean names that well... are kind of hard to remember... uh HUH! Since its so easy for you to translate his name, can you tell us what his ID is if not fruitdealer?
He's not talking about translating the names/IDs. That's exactly what we do and he says it's wrong. He's talking about transliterating the names, and I have to agree. It would actually make a lot more sense to transliterate the names than to translate them.
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I'm a big fan of this. At least CSL uses real names.
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Korean culture is accustomed to real names, just because they are as unique as their in game names. To my extent of knowledge, the west is more accustomed to in game names (even in older games). Who knowa, things may change
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
I know you're being facetious here, but I think the main thing holding back gaming from booming is lack of interest from nearly the entire female gender (outside of Korea). It's tough to model a business when your market is so small and non-affluent to start with. Chiefly male hardcore gamers, aged 14-30.
There are stats out there that say 40% of gamers are female, but I think that's more wii related casual stuff. Have a look at any MLG crowd, see anything missing?
When you watch korean BW (haven't really paid attention to GSL streams) you see a pretty large representation of females in attendance. I'm not sure why that is or how it happened, but in order for competitive video gaming to be accepted, we're gonna need the fairer sex on board in North America.
edit: To the OP, nicknames are nothing to do with anything. I don't see them as a boon, nor barrier to this stuff. NoNy changed his name to Tyler. Nothing ensued.
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On March 02 2011 11:23 awu25 wrote:
i don't think it's a marketing thing
most koreans wouldn't be able to pronounce flash, jaedong, or mvp, i think that's why their korean names are used
what the hell lol
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If esports isn't fun why would I care if it gets big? Stop trying to take the fun out of it.
And god damn it, it is not Day9's job to be Barney the dinosaur for your kids in sc2 form.
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Calling players by their real name in an attempt to reduce social stigma. A moderator missed this connection?
Even if its false that's the pull of the thread.
Reducing social stigma advances esports. I'm all for it, most of the progamers I follow anyways I am familiar with their birth names.
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On March 02 2011 23:28 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm... I know you're being facetious here, but I think the main thing holding back gaming from booming is lack of interest from nearly the entire female gender (outside of Korea). It's tough to model a business when your market is so small and non-affluent to start with. Chiefly male hardcore gamers, aged 14-30. There are stats out there that say 40% of gamers are female, but I think that's more wii related casual stuff. Have a look at any MLG crowd, see anything missing? When you watch korean BW (haven't really paid attention to GSL streams) you see a pretty large representation of females in attendance. I'm not sure why that is or how it happened, but in order for competitive video gaming to be accepted, we're gonna need the fairer sex on board in North America. edit: To the OP, nicknames are nothing to do with anything. I don't see them as a boon, nor barrier to this stuff. NoNy changed his name to Tyler. Nothing ensued.
People have been saying that learning how to pronounce the names is a problem, but there are two points I have about that.
1) That is just something the professional casters might need to learn. Tyler's last name might look difficult to pronounce, but I've heard it so many times that I could easily spout it off.
2) People mispronounce gamertags as it is now all the time as it is now anyway. How do you pronounce IdrA? What about Nony?
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I like Pros using gamertags because it shows some of their personality, but if i'm talking to my non-gaming freinds it's really embarressing talking about for example "squirtle" or something like that.
I also like that it makes countries irrelevant. I can feel like I support Dimaga or White-ra, instead of some guy's name i can't even pronounce/remember. I mean if you are totally into the scene you're gonna know the real names anyway, but for a casual audience it make it easier to identify people.
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You want to know what would fucking help eSports? If you would stop making threads like this and instead go do something to help awesome events, eSports will happen. For the sake of eSports, make eSports happen.
P.S. eSports
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On March 02 2011 15:26 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 15:16 Chill wrote:On March 02 2011 15:10 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 15:05 Chill wrote:On March 02 2011 15:02 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 13:34 Chill wrote:
Yes, and I agree. But do you think it's #1 on the long-list of things that need to happen before it booms (as the OP says) or #1000? I'm sorry, Chill, but where did I say that? I'm trying to be mannered, but do not put words in my mouth. There is much that could be done above using people's names, I admit. It is just one of the things I wanted to get opinions on. For someone who holds a certain level of power on these boards, I would have hoped you wouldn't put down false accusations and condemnation. "Real Names for eSports to Boom?" How should I interprit that? "Real Names [and 999 other more important things first] for eSports to Boom?"? It's amazing how because I bring up one topic for discussion, you assume it is the ONLY topic for discussion in my mind. If you look at what Korea does for their players and what the west does, we are getting closer to being similar. Obviously there are a lot of differences still and a long way to go. What I don't understand is why you are getting so infuriated that you are resorting to cursing (a lot by the way) on just an idea. I asked what people thought. You don't think it is necessary, leave it at that. You didn't just ask what people thought, you crafted it as if you thought it was extremely important. Why don't you respond to my retorts then? + Show Spoiler +Alright, I will put it in plain words so there is no confusion.
Do I think that using players' actual names is the difference in making eSports mainstream or not?
Of course not. Do I think that not only the Korean commentators do use names, but that the society of Korea identifies players by their names instead of their tags? Absolutely. + Show Spoiler +Do I think that we have things to learn from the Korean way of doing things?
Undoubtedly. They have had the most success in the world on making it mainstream. Why would we think it is a good idea to be pig-headed and think we have nothing to learn from them? I am not saying that this name idea is the final piece to the missing puzzle, but I think it's like StarCraft itself. You gain all of these little advantages which leads up to an overwhelming lead. If we do lots of things to make it more accessible to the general audience, such as using their names, (in addition to other things) do you not think that it will add up to our goal of making it in the limelight?
The Korean progamers rever their mother. They mention them, thank them and even give part (all) of their winnings to their mothers. Not only progamers do this, but the society of Korea revers their mothers.
Since esports is mainstream in Korea, to make esports big in western countries, all western progamers need to rever their mothers & give them all their money.
Sorry I just cannot understand the "In Korea they do <this> - and since in Korea esports is mainstream we should do this as well" arguments. Korean society differs a lot from western societies - do we have to mirror it to make esports successful over here? No.
Or if it is neccessary it will be impossible.
I think we should have realnames during the player presentation. When nameplates are shown and stuff it should read "<firstname> <ID> <surname>". During games, the commentators should mix it up (name, id, race, nationality). I honestly doubt it will have any impact at all though about how people perceive esports as long as the names are mentioned at all.
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Introduction onto the stage: Greg "IdrA" Fields
In-game: IdrA
Postmatch Interview: Greg
That lets people have the best of both worlds. They know a gamer's real name and it is used when talking face-to-face with the player. In-game they're known as their chosen gamer tag. They're almost always more memorable than real names simply because they aren't "normal" names so you're not as used to seeing them and your brain stores the information better. I think this is both professional (using real names to make it seem more legit) and memorable (letting a gamer choose their name as it says something about them and their personality).
Good compromise?
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Using real names does not make esport more entertaining or legitimate, people are using the player's real name already in most professional website interviews. There are plenty of popular sports such as wrestling that utilizes both real names and nicknames and those are not the reason why people want to watch them.
Also there is literally nothing stopping a Western progamer from using his real name as a gaming ID, similar to how Jaedong didn't bother making one up. If you want to find out how to make esport bigger figure out how you can get more people to watch it and more sponsorship to come in, not focusing on superficial issues such as naming conventions.
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. IDs could be seen as 'geeky' and 'immature', hence the social stigma.
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On March 02 2011 11:23 awu25 wrote:
i don't think it's a marketing thing
most koreans wouldn't be able to pronounce flash, jaedong, or mvp, i think that's why their korean names are used
this made my day
and it goes to my signature
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On March 02 2011 16:51 XsebT wrote:
And I don't wonna hear Nick De Cesare when I wonna think of some honey hazel eyes and a toned body with italian-olive skin.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
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Well it really depends what the id is. Something like "sacsri" or "constantly" is like a scratch on the blackboard. But on the otherhand, something like "actionjesus" or "jaedong" is a kickass game id that would sound better to be called than an ordinary name.
Overall, its not worth worrying about. Esports in the foreign scene has grown alot, its already popular and still growing.
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I totally agree that players should be identified to by their true names. It will be a step in the right direction towards abandoning the social stigma attached to gaming. Having IDs that aren't your real name is all well and good on the ladder, but in large scale tournaments with broadcast matches, real names would make is seem less childish. This may make it more appealing to people who may be on the borderline of being okay with doing something as nerdy as watch people play a video game, as most of the population thinks this is just silly and childish. The last thing we need is silly names to further this opinion.
Example:
People hear 'EGIdra' and are like wtf is that?
People hear 'Greg Fields of team EG' and they immediately know it's a real person, he's on a team and it just sounds more like what people expect out of any large scale competition.
While were at it, ditch the term 'ESPORTS' because while there may be some intense competition in gaming, it is NOT as sport. Just calling it anything with sport in the name may turn some people off from square one.
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On March 03 2011 01:30 HarryHood wrote:
I totally agree that players should be identified to by their true names. It will be a step in the right direction towards abandoning the social stigma attached to gaming. Having IDs that aren't your real name is all well and good on the ladder, but in large scale tournaments with broadcast matches, real names would make is seem less childish. This may make it more appealing to people who may be on the borderline of being okay with doing something as nerdy as watch people play a video game, as most of the population thinks this is just silly and childish. The last thing we need is silly names to further this opinion.
Example:
People hear 'EGIdra' and are like wtf is that?
People hear 'Greg Fields of team EG' and they immediately know it's a real person, he's on a team and it just sounds more like what people expect out of any large scale competition.
While were at it, ditch the term 'ESPORTS' because while there may be some intense competition in gaming, it is NOT as sport. Just calling it anything with sport in the name may turn some people off from square one.
I don't see why sc2 shouldn't be called an "ESPORT". It fits all the criteria to be classified as a sport (def: "A sport is an organized, competitive, entertaining, and skillful activity requiring commitment, strategy, and fair play, in which a winner can be defined by objective means.") except that it takes place online. I personally feel that the term "ESPORT" is perfect to describe StarCraft 2 and all online games of a competitive nature.
@ OP: I don't think using real names is actually helpful for the growth of a sport that is international. I will never be able to link the real name of a korean pro-gamer to his ID, the names are completely foreign to me and nearly impossible to remember. Where as an ID such as that of nestea or slayers_boxer is immediately recognizable and I can link that name with the real person with extreme ease. With so many different countries all competing in the same sport with different name conventions for each country I actually feel that it is much more beneficial that most players are using English ID's. That way most people will actually be able to read the name and remember it.
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I dont see how real names would generally help anything to a large extent. Music artists don't use their real name and it's fine. You don't hear "Marshall eminem mathers" everytime he's mentioned. He was known and still known as eminem to the masses. It shouldn't be based around the real name but if they want an alias. The Id makes people stand out in entertainment where nicknames is the norm and a real name only in a professional setting like an interview and such.
P.s you could argue I know eminems name but around the world he's known as eminem before his real name
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I think the differences between sc2/esports should be encouraged. Player handles are a unique feature in video games, and are just more interesting than a regular name.
Its easier to remember a handle because of shorter character length and uniqueness imo.
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On March 03 2011 04:51 xsevR wrote:
I think the differences between sc2/esports should be encouraged. Player handles are a unique feature in video games, and are just more interesting than a regular name.
Its easier to remember a handle because of shorter character length and uniqueness imo.
It seems like it is easier to remember because that is what you are accustomed to.
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On March 03 2011 05:59 ScrapBrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 04:51 xsevR wrote:
I think the differences between sc2/esports should be encouraged. Player handles are a unique feature in video games, and are just more interesting than a regular name.
Its easier to remember a handle because of shorter character length and uniqueness imo. It seems like it is easier to remember because that is what you are accustomed to.
I'm also pretty accustomed to remembering regular human names, believe it or not... Theres simply less to remember with a handle.
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On March 03 2011 00:43 frodoguy wrote:
But on the otherhand, something like "actionjesus" or "jaedong" is a kickass game id that would sound better to be called than an ordinary name.
Oh man it keeps getting better.
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On March 03 2011 01:30 HarryHood wrote:
[...]
While were at it, ditch the term 'ESPORTS' because while there may be some intense competition in gaming, it is NOT as sport. Just calling it anything with sport in the name may turn some people off from square one.
So, in your opinion, what does SC2 need to be considered a esport?
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Plenty of other sports have nicknames, in boxing there are names like "The brown bomber" or UFC there are plenty of nick names like "Ice Man". There is nothing non-mainstream about it. If anything it makes it more accessible to people. Real names are probably harder to remember and don't stand out as much either. As for the "Esports" name, I prefer the term "Competitive Gaming". That's how I've heard people refer to poker and chess.
Disagree? Here's a list of famous sports players nicknames, of almost every big sport!
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On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm...
According to a lot of my Asian friends, mostly Chinese and Korean, there's still a huge social stigma associated with trying to become a "pro" gamer in their home countries.
No parent wants or encourages their kids to play video games all day. If people think Korean parents do, they're fucking stupid.
For a western comparison, it's like the porn industry and someone like Jenna Jameson. Sure, you can become super successful and make a ton of money doing it, but is there a social stigma associated with it... hell yeah. No parents here want their kids to be in porn.
The same thing applies to Korea etc. Just because E-Sports has more mainstream exposure, doesn't mean it's socially accepted.
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I think in the rush to "legitimize" competitive gaming, we've largely forgotten what makes people consumers of competitive entertainment. People have to be able to identify in some way with the competition. For example, people who grew up playing baseball, basketball, football, and golf are more likely to be the people who watch those events on tv or attend them in person. If a person who has never partaken in such activities comes across them while channel surfing, more than likely they will just cruise on by. Without that experience or at least the direct influence of someone who has experience, people can't identify with what is happening, thus there will be no interest.
I know we would all like to believe that SC2 is just so awesome that people can't help but watch, but the reality is, we can't expect a mass uptake of SC2 content out of nowhere. Largely speaking, in order for people to consume e-sports content en masse, they will first have to take up the corresponding game/genre on at least a casual basis so that there is some relative link for people to identify with what is going on in the competition they are consuming. There are still plenty of people who are gamers who will look at a Starcraft 2 game and just see a bunch of nonsensical graphics and animations. Unfortunately, the only way to change that is for them to directly experience Starcraft 2 or to have at least watched someone they know play it.
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On March 03 2011 01:30 HarryHood wrote:
While were at it, ditch the term 'ESPORTS' because while there may be some intense competition in gaming, it is NOT as sport. Just calling it anything with sport in the name may turn some people off from square one.
sport–noun
1. An athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.
I would say that the speed and precision of players with the mouse is a physical skill, and one which can manifest itself in physical pains and disorders.
Just because most of us use a keyboard and mouse casually does not dismiss it as physically demanding, especially at higher levels. By this logic, I wouldn't consider hunting a "sport", as the only real physical activity is walking.
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They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. IDs could be seen as 'geeky' and 'immature', hence the social stigma.
People who think those who believe in competition in video game as "sport" will think "esport" is geeky and immature doesn't matter how you spin it.
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I think it definitely would help. Maybe not going by their names only because game IDs are apart of the "gamer" culture. However the names should be associated, especially with the casters. I love tasteosis as much as the next person, but if they were just known as Nick and Dan more people would feel less weird watching. Or even just Dan "Artosis" and Nick "Tasteless," so people know real names plus their IDs.
Things like using real names and public figures becoming more professional only help the SC2 community in the long run.
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On March 03 2011 00:43 frodoguy wrote:
Well it really depends what the id is. Something like "sacsri" or "constantly" is like a scratch on the blackboard. But on the otherhand, something like "actionjesus" or "jaedong" is a kickass game id that would sound better to be called than an ordinary name.
Overall, its not worth worrying about. Esports in the foreign scene has grown alot, its already popular and still growing.
Alright that had to have been on purpose... lol.
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On March 02 2011 12:46 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 12:38 ScrapBrain wrote:On March 02 2011 11:46 Chill wrote:
Where are you people explaining what we need to do to "expand esports" coming from lately?
Let's see, do you think the thing holding back gaming from booming is:
- Social stigma with gaming not being legitimatized and accepted yet
OR
- Commentators calling people by their IDs
Hmm... The issue is not that there is a social stigma. If that mattered, not nearly as many people would be willing to express their love of eSports. But if you look at something such as poker, it is more than just a game. I have watched poker for years, but watching the actual game play itself is very boring. The excitement comes from back-stories and getting people you can root for, right? Who would your root for between MoonShatter and sToPGoGo? You have no idea because those are just two guys in my ladder division. What about Lim Yo Hwan vs Kim Won Gi? Korea has made those more than just Slayers`Boxer vs TSL.Fruitdealer. You don't think that they might have been on to something by making the people more than their handles? I disagree 100% .. SlayerS_BoxeR and TSL_Fruitdealer will get close to 97% more recognition than Kim Won Gi in the Western world.. Increasing the notoriety of eSports in Korea is simply not in our realm (speaking from a foreigner perspective) however the Western world would be a lot more receptive to a player's handle than their name in my opinion.. I do agree with Chill that this is quite close to the smallest problem standing in the way of eSports and the social stigma attached to computer games and gamers in general as nerds and leeches of society needs to be overcome first.. IDs vs Real Names i just don't feel is a priority..
Probably because as far as the western world is concerned they are only called by their ID's. I don't watch GomTV but I don't think Tastosis use the player's real names while casting do they?
The fact is we always reference people by their ID's and casters always use the ID's in casts, so we aren't really exposed to their real names like Koreans are.
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On March 02 2011 11:23 awu25 wrote:
i don't think it's a marketing thing
most koreans wouldn't be able to pronounce flash, jaedong, or mvp, i think that's why their korean names are used
roflies
Tbh, probs doesn't matter. Call em whatever.
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Maybe westerners should adopt Korean names...
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On March 02 2011 11:23 awu25 wrote:
i don't think it's a marketing thing
most koreans wouldn't be able to pronounce flash, jaedong, or mvp, i think that's why their korean names are used
The beauty of the american education system.
And well, theres not actually ANYTHING in place that stops them from using their actual names. Most of them just dont want to.
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id's are cool they are even using it in mma, so why not in sc?
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I know most of the players I really like names anyway from the liquiewiki.
Anyway, it makes commentating more fun. Fields is just not as cool as Idra.
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It's clear that the social stigma that came with video game is currently hindering the mainstream exposure, while ID maybe part of it, it is definitely not the bulk of it. It's also not uncommon for people to have nicks in other sports, like George "Rush" St. Pierre. Even though nobody calls him "rush" anymore, the nick is still introduced every single time he steps into octagon, eh?
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On March 02 2011 11:19 ScrapBrain wrote:
If you take a look at the Korean eSports scene, there is one of the big difference in the marketing of it all.
That difference is that they use the players' actual names instead of only their tag. It may seem like a minor difference, but if you think about it is pretty major in terms of making it mainstream.
If you look at StarCraft as a story, then using actual names seems like it would legitimize the players as actual people instead of just participants of a game. For instance, a player like ActionJesus might have a tendency to 6-pool, but that's it. A tendency determined by other peoples' accounts. If you compare that to a player like Kim Nam Gyu, (look him up if you need) you see tendencies as well, but since the spectators are given his name and see his actual face and body language, they internalize a sense for him as a person.
When you remove the anonymity of a tag and introduce them as a real flesh and blood human, they become more than a character. I'm wondering if what eSports needs in the west to become truly mainstream is people instead of participants. What do you guys think?
Edit: Mod, if you would please change the title of the thread to "Real Names to Help eSports?" Thanks.
fatal1ty who I believe is still the richest e-sports play is known by that ID. There is no change with association based on actual name verse ID. I know that Incontrol plays macro protoss. I now know that Geoff Robinson is Incontrol. When people learn a new piece of information they add it to the pile. I still cannot tell, but I am thinking this is just a better developed troll thread?
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People use nick names ALL THE TIME, for DIFFERENT SETTINGS. In real life aswell!
- Relationships; baby, babe, sweety...
- Gaming; IdrA, Ret, Jinro...
- Real life; Mike, Ben, Joe...
- Artists; Sting, Bono, Seal...
- Teams; 49ers, The Bulls, Penguins...
I would compare gamer tags (nick names) to an artist name like Sting. The letters in the name aren't what's important, it is the character behind the name! And this is why I don't see how real names can really help...
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- esports will not grow by changing to real names
- esports is too segmented to get really big (soooo many games)
Nobody gives a shit about watching games they don't play is the root cause
Oh. I bet all of TL was really excited to watch other games than SC2 at IEM? Nope. Only few of you.
And you are hardcore nerds. What about mainstream? They REALLY don't give a shit about kids playing some computer game they have never played themselves.
Yes. Korea. Different back story, different culture. I'm talking about west.
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I like knowing the real name of a player I like to watch play. In the way that the GSL does it, where it's presented as additional information, that could atleast add something without taking anything away but overall there is nothing wrong with having the nickname be the main identifier for a player it should actually always stay that way. If you still want to know his/her real name you can find out anyway.
As for it helping eSports, I don't know, it's not so much the names as it is being able to get an emotional connection in general with a player. And a name is actually a really bad way of doing this, image, voice, dialog, posture, presence do a lot more to build this connection.
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What difference does a real name make?
Judging from the OP you believe that a callsign can't be as iconic or noteworthy as a real name.
Let me ask you this...do you know about the "Red Baron" from the Red Baron nickname or his real name of Manfred von Richthofen?
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EPT
