EPT[G] Comprehensive SC2 League and Ladder Guide - Page 20
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veGGen
Norway62 Posts
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DiDigital
75 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:53 darmousseh wrote: So this is bizarre. My friends were playing 3v3 and they told me they got into gold in 5 placement matches without winning a single game and that this is their first time playing 3s together as that specific team. Makes me think that blizzard only counts individual ratings even in premade teams. Here's the team: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2596832/1/Elvis/ladder/46418#current-rank When forming a team blizzard takes the players mmr's from other teams to estimate the starting mmr for the new team. In this case you had a plat and two gold players. I'm sureprised they managed to lose all 5 and still stick in gold but not too surprised. Their first game was likely against a low plat / high gold team, and since this part of the ladder is highly populated the system probably didn't have much trouble finding even matches for them, thus the team didn't lose too much mmr with each loss. | ||
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vvLOSTvv
Norway23 Posts
Now, here is my score: vs the master: -12 vs the diamond: -12 vs the platinum: -11 ?????????? It just blow my mind that blizzard keeps this extremely CRAPPY system. Maybe it is nice for some players that their real rank/score is hidden, that they get a fake score that motivates them etc..BUT for me its the opposite! For me this system is extremely annoing and TAKES AWAY MY MOTIVATION to play the ladder..CUZ I WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH !!! I wanna know where i stand, but with this crappy system its like impossible to know. -12 vs a master, -12 vs a diamond, and -11 vs a plat ??? how can i complair skill in a system like this where 1 point can separate a loss vs a platinum player an master player :S :S :S (edit: its even worse then i thought..its not "only 1 point" really..cuz i lost LESS vs the plat. player then the master player) Now please tell me.. HOW IN EARTH can a supposed "competitive sport/ladder" (source: Blizzard?) have hidden rank/score? what other real sport has hidden scores?? its almost as stupid as if a soccer game ends 2-1 but the real hidden score is acctually 0-1. This system from a "competitive point of view" doenst make sense at all. Its just really demotivational and extremely annoing. | ||
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vvLOSTvv
Norway23 Posts
got -9 points lol... loss vs master: -12 loss vs plat: -11 loss vs diamond -9 patetic crap... | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12270 Posts
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vvLOSTvv
Norway23 Posts
competition and hidden scores/rank..LOL.. tell me..what kinda sport use hidden scores/ranks? pure and utter nonsense imo. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12270 Posts
On May 20 2011 10:20 vvLOSTvv wrote: sure i do..the system is still TERRIBLE. That is my point. competition and hidden scores/rank..LOL.. tell me..what kinda sport use hidden scores/ranks? pure and utter nonsense imo. What kind of sport intelligently matches players or teams evenly with a small margin of error after only a short history? That argument is a fallacy. MMR is quite necessary and does its job effectively while also mitigating the grind of a traditional ladder system. | ||
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nepts2
33 Posts
On May 20 2011 09:40 vvLOSTvv wrote: lost vs a diamond rank 1. got -9 points lol... loss vs master: -12 loss vs plat: -11 loss vs diamond -9 patetic crap... I earn about 10-12 points per win and LOSE 14 points at least per loss. Feel my pain son. | ||
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Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
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vvLOSTvv
Norway23 Posts
On May 20 2011 10:40 Excalibur_Z wrote: What kind of sport intelligently matches players or teams evenly with a small margin of error after only a short history? That argument is a fallacy. Well, i think the reason that sports/competitions does not use hidden scores/rank is because those two (hidden scores/ranks and sport/sports) are not compatible. I think that if u gonna have a REAL competition the scores/ranks must be transparent. The thing is that I dont know where in the field I am, or if im improving or not compair to the other in the field. Do i get closer to those in front of me, or do i fall behind, or do i stand still..and how many of those behind me today are a head of me tomorrow? As long as the MMR is hidden im i utter darkness. The thing is that for me THERE IS NO REAL COMPETITION cuz of the lack of transparency. Im "running" in utter darkness every day not knowing where in the field i really am. MMR is quite necessary and does its job effectively while also mitigating the grind of a traditional ladder system. I dont argue about the necessity of the MMR... Make it transparent for the competitive leagues/players and all the rest who want to know it. | ||
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vvLOSTvv
Norway23 Posts
On May 20 2011 10:46 nepts2 wrote: I earn about 10-12 points per win and LOSE 14 points at least per loss. Feel my pain son. Why do you care about those points? I dont feel any pain because of losing points. I do however feel pain because blizzards crappy and annoing system. | ||
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SDream
Brazil896 Posts
If you keep track of your "adjusted points" then you can tell you've improved, but bonus points make it difficult to keep track... | ||
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nepts2
33 Posts
What havoc would it cause when they decide to show MMR and ranks within the battle net? | ||
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vvLOSTvv
Norway23 Posts
1. a system for the competitive player.. a transparent league system showing real ranking/score, losses etc., using the maps which are used in in the biggest tournaments. 2. a different system for the casual players | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On May 20 2011 12:34 vvLOSTvv wrote: I think if Blizzard is smart they will make: 1. a system for the competitive player.. a transparent league system showing real ranking/score, losses etc., using the maps which are used in in the biggest tournaments. 2. a different system for the casual players I think what you are describing was the goal of masters and grand masters vs other leagues + the ability down vote maps and seasonal maps. | ||
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Paradice
New Zealand431 Posts
On May 20 2011 11:42 vvLOSTvv wrote: Well, i think the reason that sports/competitions does not use hidden scores/rank is because those two (hidden scores/ranks and sport/sports) are not compatible. I think that if u gonna have a REAL competition the scores/ranks must be transparent. The thing is that I dont know where in the field I am, or if im improving or not compair to the other in the field. Do i get closer to those in front of me, or do i fall behind, or do i stand still..and how many of those behind me today are a head of me tomorrow? As long as the MMR is hidden im i utter darkness. The thing is that for me THERE IS NO REAL COMPETITION cuz of the lack of transparency. Im "running" in utter darkness every day not knowing where in the field i really am. I dont argue about the necessity of the MMR... Make it transparent for the competitive leagues/players and all the rest who want to know it. Your MMR isn't one number. It's a curve described by a centre point and an uncertainty factor. Even if you could click a button and see the shape and position of your estimated skill curve, you still can't tell the things you want to know by studying your curve over time - what if everyone else near you has curves which have moved position too? Even in the "real" sports you're drawing false comparisons with, you can't tell. My favourite Football team is 3-0 in their league. The rival team from the next town is also 3-0. They've played different opponents. Which team is better? This is the impossible question you're demanding blizzard make available to you at all times. Good luck. Stop blaming Blizzard's system and start playing. The things you want to know are obvious from playing a few games. You can't go on a 10 game winning streak and feel like you don't know if you're playing well. Likewise, lose in the first round of a tournament? Yep, you could be doing better. | ||
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Gulzt
Netherlands275 Posts
On May 20 2011 17:31 Paradice wrote: Your MMR isn't one number. It's a curve described by a centre point and an uncertainty factor. Even if you could click a button and see the shape and position of your estimated skill curve, you still can't tell the things you want to know by studying your curve over time - what if everyone else near you has curves which have moved position too? Even in the "real" sports you're drawing false comparisons with, you can't tell. My favourite Football team is 3-0 in their league. The rival team from the next town is also 3-0. They've played different opponents. Which team is better? This is the impossible question you're demanding blizzard make available to you at all times. Good luck. Stop blaming Blizzard's system and start playing. The things you want to know are obvious from playing a few games. You can't go on a 10 game winning streak and feel like you don't know if you're playing well. Likewise, lose in the first round of a tournament? Yep, you could be doing better. That's not how I understood it. Correct me if I'm wrong: The MMR is just another variation to the ELO rating system. They can tell us exactly if I'm 1452 points MMR, but blizzard hides this in the current system. The other factors you're referring to are meant for (A) finding an equally skilled opponent, and (B) to decide in what league we should be placed. They could if they wish – just like with chess – show us exactly what our true rating is. However, when matching to an opponent, and putting us in a league it will also consider other factors (like uncertainty). So with that in mind, it would mean there will be people in top gold who have the exact same rating a low platinum, put in different leagues because of the other factors. -- Allthough I really love to see my true rating, I like blizzard's decision. They have experience with these systems since Starcraft 1. There was a system for Warcraft II: b.net edition, Warcraft III and now the most advanced version for Starcraft II. They've noticed the behaviour of players being demotivated to continue when they see they are infinitely behind the top of the world. They want players to play, and the few thousand players that can survive in such a harsh system is just not worth it if you can reach 10fold the amount of players. The more people are playing, the more the game is promoted (new sales) and can grow as an e-sport (bigger audience = more investment by advertisers etc). They hear our call and they're changing things to make as many people happy as possible. The true top (GSL, MLG etc) will be part of a new rating system, those guys will never care about their ladder rating, they don't even mind if they are master or grandmaster. that's because they make their own system (GSL Code A, Code S etc). For all us competitive amateur players, we are not happy with the situation as is, but we're a relative small group. Over time blizzard has no choice, because players will move to an iccup system and ignore the ladder completely. This is not what blizzard wants and when they feel it's relevant they'll change it more to our demands. *Not sure if it's all accurate and true, but that's how I feel about it | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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Gulzt
Netherlands275 Posts
http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/127572807 | ||
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vvLOSTvv
Norway23 Posts
Even in the "real" sports you're drawing false comparisons with, you can't tell. My favourite Football team is 3-0 in their league. The rival team from the next town is also 3-0.... Because its a competition its transparency isnt it? Its not like "the authorities" hide losses or calculate points/positions/ranks, but refuses do release it? how insanly stupid would that be.. My point is that if you gonna have a real competitive sport you dont hide scores/ranks, cuz hidden scores/ranks etc. kills competition. Again, what kinda sports hide scores/ranks etc.? ...They've played different opponents. Which team is better? This is the impossible question you're demanding blizzard make available to you at all times. Good luck. Noooo....lol...im not demanding blizzard to make a perfect system and tell me the "absolute true skills" of all players at all times. I just want transparency of the system they now use!!! Transparency would not make everything perfect regarding "absolute true skills", but still, it would make it better for the competitor. | ||
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