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United States12270 Posts
On April 01 2011 17:13 DiDigital wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 00:33 Excalibur_Z wrote:On March 30 2011 20:40 DiDigital wrote:
Anyone notice the huge increases in points for some players to start the season. One player I saw received 38 points for a win. While that is in the old range of values with bonus pool included I only had 7 bonus pool available at the time after my first game. Is it possible that the number of points possible has increased, or am I just missing something? Well, two things here. 1) Did it actually show in his match history +38, or did you infer that based on his displayed wins? You posted this message at around 6:40AM PST which is roughly 24 hours after the server went live, maybe give an hour or so for when bonus pool actually started accruing. So that's around 12, maybe 13 bonus pool, so 36 or 37 should have been the maximum. I have 14 bonus pool remaining at the moment (a couple of hours after you posted). 2) If you just inferred it, then it's possible he was moved from another league which would start his points around 73, then he just lost some games to drop down to 38. It was straight from match history. His points seemed really high so I clicked on his history and saw it. I should note that this is in a 2v2 bracket. Bonus pool was at 7 when I posted, and his game was hours in the past. I actually think what happened was that the team was promoted / demoted after initial placement, to give them 73 points. The match was probably from the very end of last season, yet still in the match history.
Oh yeah, if it was in 2v2 then they would have only had access to 66% of the 1v1 bonus pool, which means there's no way they would have had 38 points from Season 2. It must have been a Season 1 game.
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Since the new season, I got from platinum to diamond. But the 10 games I played so far where very weird, all of them where against people who are in diamond, and where in diamond last season. All of them the opponent was "slightly favored" or "favored".
But those opponents played worse than the ones I used to play when in plat, and while I did play against diamonds last season a lot of the platinum players I played against where much better than the ones in diamond I play now.
I don't understand, my MMR is supposed to be the same, so why is Bnet saying those opponents are favored when they have a lower skill level than my previous opponents which where not tagged as "favored", and why does Bnet match me up against those players?
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Loving this, bookmarked so that I can explain to some friends later. Good job with the charts as well. 
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United States12270 Posts
On April 02 2011 00:46 NeonFox wrote:
Since the new season, I got from platinum to diamond. But the 10 games I played so far where very weird, all of them where against people who are in diamond, and where in diamond last season. All of them the opponent was "slightly favored" or "favored".
But those opponents played worse than the ones I used to play when in plat, and while I did play against diamonds last season a lot of the platinum players I played against where much better than the ones in diamond I play now.
I don't understand, my MMR is supposed to be the same, so why is Bnet saying those opponents are favored when they have a lower skill level than my previous opponents which where not tagged as "favored", and why does Bnet match me up against those players?
I literally made a flowchart that explains that on the last page and added it to the OP.
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Thanks for this analysis, alot of great information here. One thing though, is there a list of sources for this information? Specifically the point that BOTH players can be favoured in a match up? That just seems completely counter-intuitive to me.. Although I guess easy enough to check so i'm sure it's true. Sorry to seem skeptical, I just like things to be 100% clear. Thanks!
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United States12270 Posts
Well think about it. If it was MMR vs MMR, points would stagnate. Everyone would play even matches all the time and they'd win 50% of the time which would lock their points at 0. Instead, it's points vs opponent MMR (which is indirectly points vs your own MMR) which allows your points to reach your MMR quickly. Look at Ostojiy's matches since the patch, for example: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/532593/1/NrGostojiy/matches#filter=solo He starts out getting +24 points and losing -1, then as his points get closer to his MMR he's gaining fewer and losing more points until he starts leveling out at wherever his MMR is.
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Great article! Actually, I've read almost all the article you made on that topics and I must say that your analysis are quite impressive.
Here a small question. Since the reset, from what I saw, every Diamond players starts with 0 point. Does that mean that every division are made equal? By having the master league, they may have their way to separate top players from good players.
If I remember correctly, in the first season, a player was starting with points in Diamond and it was depending on the division he landed. However, it doesn't seem to be case now. Maybe there is something that I don't understand but I would like to have your thoughts on this.
Sorry if somebody already asked, but I went through the replies since the reset and I haven't found any questions about it!
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On April 02 2011 04:04 m4tt3w wrote:
Great article! Actually, I've read almost all the article you made on that topics and I must say that your analysis are quite impressive.
Here a small question. Since the reset, from what I saw, every Diamond players starts with 0 point. Does that mean that every division are made equal? By having the master league, they may have their way to separate top players from good players.
If I remember correctly, in the first season, a player was starting with points in Diamond and it was depending on the division he landed. However, it doesn't seem to be case now. Maybe there is something that I don't understand but I would like to have your thoughts on this.
Sorry if somebody already asked, but I went through the replies since the reset and I haven't found any questions about it!
What the system needs to be doing is calculating your point total by taking your displayed points then adding in a league offset and then subtracting the division offset. In other words, every player starts the season with 0 points, but your true point total is calculated in the dark by factoring in your league / division. This means that players in divisions with high offsets will earn more points than players in different offsets up until their points earned reaches the offset level.
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Very nicely done Excal. I love your write-ups. Thanks for this, now I better understand the entire process.
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On April 02 2011 04:04 m4tt3w wrote:
Here a small question. Since the reset, from what I saw, every Diamond players starts with 0 point. Does that mean that every division are made equal? By having the master league, they may have their way to separate top players from good players.
No. There's a hidden modifier per division that means that 0 points from one division doesn't correspond to 0 points from another.
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*salute* very good thread I enjoyed the read. I knew alot and learned alot. 100% quality post.
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On April 02 2011 00:38 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Oh yeah, if it was in 2v2 then they would have only had access to 66% of the 1v1 bonus pool, which means there's no way they would have had 38 points from Season 2. It must have been a Season 1 game.
66% of the bonus pool? Is this what the patch notes referring to reducing the bonus pool for team games meant?
So does this mean bonus pool in team games accumulates at a different rate than the 1v1 bonus pool now? Is this just for arranged teams, or also for Random team?
I used to use a team I had that played only placements in order to quickly refer to the current max bonus pool, I guess this does not work anymore? Is there another way to quickly find this then?
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Sorry if this was answered before, but I have a quick question. I had a huge bonus pool last season and I'm trying to get a sense of how the system is ranking me.
I know the system was theoretically supposed to place me in a division with comparable skill, so my question is: If I look up the other players in my new season 2 division on sc2ranks to see their ladder points from last season, assuming they spent all of their bonus points, is that a good indication of my hidden MMR?
Edit: And does this reflect tiers in any way? If the other players are all 3000+ diamond, does that mean I am close to the top tier of diamond?
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On April 02 2011 08:22 DiDigital wrote:
What the system needs to be doing is calculating your point total by taking your displayed points then adding in a league offset and then subtracting the division offset. In other words, every player starts the season with 0 points, but your true point total is calculated in the dark by factoring in your league / division. This means that players in divisions with high offsets will earn more points than players in different offsets up until their points earned reaches the offset level.
That's what the system is doing.
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On April 03 2011 00:57 stealthblade78 wrote:
I know the system was theoretically supposed to place me in a division with comparable skill, so my question is: If I look up the other players in my new season 2 division on sc2ranks to see their ladder points from last season, assuming they spent all of their bonus points, is that a good indication of my hidden MMR?
Points are not directly comparable between divisions, because there are division offsets that mean you may have to add or subtract points to compare between two divisions. It's not evident to me that you'd find out much that's very interesting this way, unless someone's points were extremely high or low.
Edit: And does this reflect tiers in any way? If the other players are all 3000+ diamond, does that mean I am close to the top tier of diamond?
Since there were more than 3000 bonus points issued last season, a player whose score is over 3000 might still have a negative point score, after subtracting bonus points.
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masters degree in SC2 match making? lolz i think i get it idk yet lolz
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United States12270 Posts
On April 02 2011 21:32 Kyamo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 00:38 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Oh yeah, if it was in 2v2 then they would have only had access to 66% of the 1v1 bonus pool, which means there's no way they would have had 38 points from Season 2. It must have been a Season 1 game. 66% of the bonus pool? Is this what the patch notes referring to reducing the bonus pool for team games meant? So does this mean bonus pool in team games accumulates at a different rate than the 1v1 bonus pool now? Is this just for arranged teams, or also for Random team? I used to use a team I had that played only placements in order to quickly refer to the current max bonus pool, I guess this does not work anymore? Is there another way to quickly find this then?
It's only for arranged teams. 3v3 and 4v4 get half of what 2v2 does. I think it's because it's harder to coordinate playing with the same 1, 2, 3 people every time than it is just queuing up for Random Team, which means Random Teams don't get the reduced bonus pool.
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Thanks a lot for this thread!
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really well written, the graphs are really helpful :D
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I've been following this whole ladder analysis chain of threads since beta, but something very interesting just happened which I cannot explain.
Last season I was ~35th diamond. This season, my placement match was against a diamond player who went mass void rays (yes, cannons straight into void rays), and whined about the matchup being broken when I walked into his base. As a result I got into platinum. Nothing too special so far... However, 4 games later, after accumulating 98 points total, I got into diamond, with 122 points. What's the explanation behind this? 
Edit: Ah, I guess... When you get promoted, your new rating is C + bonus pool, regardless of what your previous points were?
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EPT
