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On February 07 2011 11:32 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 11:03 Kazang wrote:
Amazing game.
Even though MVP put up a great fight all game long I felt like he lost the game pretty early on when he let Idra take that 4th base without having to really defend it. Idra droned up really fast then with 65+ drones on 4 bases with MVP still on 2 bases, you can't let someone as good as Idra do that and expect to win. MVP could have won it in the early game, but after that double expand it spiralled out of control for him and he was on the back foot for the rest of the game.
Looks really good for the future of high level SC2 though, players can really stretch what they can do with their multitasking to make awesome looking games with skirmishes going on all over the map constantly. Makes it great to watch. I feel that this game more demonstrates why we will not see great long TvZ's anytime soon, and it kind of all relates to the terran and larger maps thread too. TvZ is due to the fundamental designs of both races currently doomed to be heavily in zergs favor in the later game. Mutalisks, banelings, instant tech switches, larvae stacking and creep all combine with large map distances and the inherent immobility of terran to make games on large maps turn out precisely like this. Terran has to win the game early meaning terran has to go all-in really in one shape or form. When maps are so large you can't reasonably actually stop IdrA from taking a fourth with just light pressure. You need to commit substantially to kind of put you in an all-in slope and it spirals out of control from there, you can't really stop zerg from taking more bases while zerg most certainly can keep terran from taking more bases at that point. Now the game does swing back in terrans favor if you somehow get very very late into a situation where all expo's are taken and the number of mining bases diminish for both sides. But TvZ whether anyone likes it or not does not encourage macro terrans, your best chance of winning is with a 2 or 3 base allinish push. I don't like this fact at all though, but I don't see it changing unless blizzard makes changes to the way the races operate.
I disagree with you heavily. The reason you think terran can only win in the early game is because you don't know how to play a macro game vs zerg. MVP in this game honestly his biggest weakness is how late he takes his third base. If he would take his third earlier he might have won this game against idra he just waits soooo long that when his attack gets beaten it puts him behind.
Terrans can play macro games vs zerg whats going to end up happening on the big maps is terrans are going to come up with timing pushes specifically to force units so that zerg can't just drone all game just like in bw.
Right now most terrans don't know how to play a macro game and only all in on 2 base then when they lose say zvt is imba for zerg late game because they don't realize staying on 2 bases all game of course your going to lose. No shocker in that. Right now there are a select few good terran players out there who play macro games and beat zergs in late game situations all the time because they play for the macro game not just to win it off 2 bases then when it fails to say "terran can't play late game".
If you watch the Gisado vods of the new bigger maps coming out terran has won just as much as zerg has on those maps. Isn't that crazy? They didn't all in either they played it out and won by not doing anything cheesy/gimicky/all in they just did timing attacks, drops, macro'd. You should watch the Gisado vods of the new maps before making a post that zerg on big maps are going to be heavily favored against terran.
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So I heard that the Korean commentators mentioning this recent ladder match after Idra said during group selections that he thought MVP was the best terran.
Are the Korean's talking about this match too>
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i wonder if MVP decided to expand between him and Idra on the smiley face expo, would that have been more viabile than expanding above his nat? i usually win this map without any siege tanks i go mass mmm from 2 bases with full upgrades, marauders are so good at tanking banes and marines have awesome dps against anything zerg can throw at you at 10-12 mins
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On February 07 2011 16:58 Plutonium wrote:
So I heard that the Korean commentators mentioning this recent ladder match after Idra said during group selections that he thought MVP was the best terran.
Are the Korean's talking about this match too>
He had a Korean message him on battlenet after the match, so it's not unheard of that some of them watch his stream. They very well might have spread word about the match/his stream on Korean message boards.
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Jesus christ they way they play is so amazing
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This game was awesome. Really well played by Idra. Though a shame, seems like MVP waited to expand until it was way too late. He even waited really long before lifting his main CC. But anywhoo wp both of them, best game I've seen in a while. Thanks Artosis!
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The $5 were well worth it. And most of the games haven't even been played yet.
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On February 07 2011 03:27 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 03:10 Nizzy wrote:On February 07 2011 03:04 Grimjim wrote:
Apparently MVP was behind from the very start, yet it took 35 minutes for IdrA to actually close the game?
That's either saying a lot about MVP, or a lot about ZvT. You decide which. You have an interesting point but I remember IdrA saying that Zergs never want to attack until they are almost 100% sure they can take a fight. He wore MVP down with some great MUTA harass into some muta/brood lord harass. At the pro level with BETTER/BIGGER maps in the future I think we will see a lot more games like this, were players have to continually beat they're opponent all game then finally finish them. 10-minute all-in games for the majority of the games isn't fun to me. Whats the average game time in GSL like 10-13 minutes or something like that? I hope that goes way up with bigger maps. My point being this: If IdrA was playing behind from the start, he would have lost within 12 minutes. MVP was behind, yet it took 35 minutes to lose. To me, that just doesn't seem right. All factions should have the same power early, mid, and late-game.
Was IdrA behind? Even the first main battle that he lost, he was still up 30 food. Maybe it was actually a win because he was keeping the Terran army's food down. But to answer your question, MVP might actually be the best starcraft player at the moment, abuse/strats aside. He simply has talent. You aren't going to finish him with just one fight. Plus I just simply think IdrA slightly outplayed him this game.
EDIT: I just read a lot more posts. While it was a solid and entertain game, I must totally be missing how IdrA was so far behind/it was a comeback? This happens all the time to be in ladder. Muta's pop the game does a complete 180 in favor of the zerg until you can get legit mass anti air around your bases. IdrA lost a fight outside MVP's natural but they lost the same amount of food army and it benefited IdrA at first who was ahead in Macro. He was later behind a bit in Macro but with the Muta harass never lost map control. Because MVP is so talented he was able late game to take IdrA down to 1 base, but there was still a huge amount of Ultra... Am I blatantly missing something?
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Yes you are. MVP messed up the early game and so was behind all game, not idra.
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On February 07 2011 16:58 Plutonium wrote:
So I heard that the Korean commentators mentioning this recent ladder match after Idra said during group selections that he thought MVP was the best terran.
Are the Korean's talking about this match too>
yea, in fact i found artosis' youtube video that a korean posted while i was reading playxp
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On February 07 2011 20:36 Nizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 03:27 Grimjim wrote:On February 07 2011 03:10 Nizzy wrote:On February 07 2011 03:04 Grimjim wrote:
Apparently MVP was behind from the very start, yet it took 35 minutes for IdrA to actually close the game?
That's either saying a lot about MVP, or a lot about ZvT. You decide which. You have an interesting point but I remember IdrA saying that Zergs never want to attack until they are almost 100% sure they can take a fight. He wore MVP down with some great MUTA harass into some muta/brood lord harass. At the pro level with BETTER/BIGGER maps in the future I think we will see a lot more games like this, were players have to continually beat they're opponent all game then finally finish them. 10-minute all-in games for the majority of the games isn't fun to me. Whats the average game time in GSL like 10-13 minutes or something like that? I hope that goes way up with bigger maps. My point being this: If IdrA was playing behind from the start, he would have lost within 12 minutes. MVP was behind, yet it took 35 minutes to lose. To me, that just doesn't seem right. All factions should have the same power early, mid, and late-game. Was IdrA behind? Even the first main battle that he lost, he was still up 30 food. Maybe it was actually a win because he was keeping the Terran army's food down. But to answer your question, MVP might actually be the best starcraft player at the moment, abuse/strats aside. He simply has talent. You aren't going to finish him with just one fight. Plus I just simply think IdrA slightly outplayed him this game. EDIT: I just read a lot more posts. While it was a solid and entertain game, I must totally be missing how IdrA was so far behind/it was a comeback? This happens all the time to be in ladder. Muta's pop the game does a complete 180 in favor of the zerg until you can get legit mass anti air around your bases. IdrA lost a fight outside MVP's natural but they lost the same amount of food army and it benefited IdrA at first who was ahead in Macro. He was later behind a bit in Macro but with the Muta harass never lost map control. Because MVP is so talented he was able late game to take IdrA down to 1 base, but there was still a huge amount of Ultra... Am I blatantly missing something?
You're misunderstanding the point of the post you quoted.
He's saying IdrA was ahead at around the 12 minute mark, that lead only grew, but the current state of ZvT gives us this "epic" match because Zerg doesn't have the power to finish a good Terran for 30+ more minutes when he has an advantage.
Had IdrA been behind at the 12 minute mark, we'd have seen a 15 minute game because Zerg doesn't have the power to turtle up either.
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Very nice game.
MVP was behind quite a while mainly due to idra's beautiful beautiful muta harrass (tank/medivac snipes) and due to the careless play of mvp during the early game.
The brood lord harrass was also quite nice, even though I am not fully sure if it was really worth it, but i guess yes. Just to occupy mvp for a bit.
But then MVPs great great skill showed during his multiple dropship play and his resiliency. Terrans are always so hard to kill (at least for zerg).
Plus: I definitely think that macro games will be possible for terran (who says that late-game dropship play isnt viable and necessary to slow down the zerg eco?).
I guess there is still room for improvement (especially regarding infestor play), but the game was looking really advanced...
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Thanks for posting this!
Great game. Mvp did some great harassment even during big battles
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@18:58 HOLY COW, that marine spread of MVP is probably the highlight of this match..
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i really enjoyed this game thx artosis
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I didn't find this match epic at all. Idra won the game at around 12 minutes. All he had to do was not mess up and eventually his advantage would turn into a win. He did so safely, and due to the nature of TvZ, he had to basically wait until all of Terran's bases were mined out.
If MVP had won during any point after he lost that push completely, it would have been because Idra made a msitake that allowed him to win.
Sure there was a lot of stuff going on the whole match, but at no point did MVP turn his losing position into an even one.
Like others have said, if MVP had killed Idra's army at the 12 minute mark, the match would have been 15 minutes long.
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I don't see any links in the original post linking to the replay 
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Game was nice, but way overrated.
+ Show Spoiler + Idra was way ahead and there just wasn't a way to finish Mvp. The last 70% of the game was just Idra trying to finish it. Mvp did a good job with what he had though.
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On February 08 2011 00:36 fdsdfg wrote:
I didn't find this match epic at all. Idra won the game at around 12 minutes. All he had to do was not mess up and eventually his advantage would turn into a win. He did so safely, and due to the nature of TvZ, he had to basically wait until all of Terran's bases were mined out.
If MVP had won during any point after he lost that push completely, it would have been because Idra made a msitake that allowed him to win.
Sure there was a lot of stuff going on the whole match, but at no point did MVP turn his losing position into an even one.
Like others have said, if MVP had killed Idra's army at the 12 minute mark, the match would have been 15 minutes long.
actualy if MVP killed idras army at the 12 min mark, the games would be over at 12 mins
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I don't see why Idra is good at all, all he had to do was win, if he hadn't have won, he would have just lost, seriously this game sucks balls, I hate life.
(I absolutely loved the game and the commentary, I subscribed to Artosis's channel because he told me to  )
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EPT
