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On SOTG EP 25, all five were in a agreement that Zerg is:
a) Weakest to cheese amongst the three races
b) Most sensitive to the map size/layout (large being the best, and smaller being the worst)
I believe this is the consensus amongst a majority of the community, and high level players such as:EGIdrA, LiquidRet, and Artosis. Before writing this post I would of quickly agreed with them, for I had accepted these as facts as well.
They (SOTG guys) also mentioned how Terran as a race is the most tolerant to cheese, and that's why the 7 of the 8 top players in GSL4 are Terran. This makes sense to me, Terran is the most tolerant to cheese because:
a) They can repair their buildings (making early pressure easier to handle, because you can repair your wall-off/bunker making it significantly harder to break)
b) Their buildings can fly (so one can lift off structures in peril, or rearrange their buildings to be more defensible)
c) They can get their main defensive structure (the bunker) out earlier/easier than Protoss can get out a cannon or Zerg can get out a spine crawler. (Faster build time than the crawler by 15s and 10s for the cannon/ quicker tech path to get to the bunker than to get to the cannon ect)
d) Their base unit is ranged, making it less vulnerable to damage, and makes it easier to work with SCVs in desperate defence/defend ramps (not to mention you can sort of kite zealots with them to)
What doesn't make sense to me are the statements "Zerg is weaker on smaller maps" and "Zerg is weaker to cheese". These statements are thrown around like facts, I'm not saying that they aren't true; but no one ever bothers on to elaborate why. I feel this makes these statements lack substance because they are not properly justified. So I ask you, the community:
1. What makes Zerg more sensitive to map size/layout then Protoss or Terran.
2. What makes Zerg more vulnerable to cheese then Protoss or Terran.
And do please be detailed general statements really aren't going to help, please try to be specific!
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You outlined exactly why (melee base units, nothing shoots air) Slowest static defence, no wall off.
You outlined these very things, and then you ask "but why is small map bad for Z"
Surely you can make the connection between travel time and build time?
Layout is very critical to Zerg as a large portion of their dps is based on surface area, surface area that is very easy to restrict on small maps with narrow chokes (why i LOVE forcefield so much)
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I think the main reason (for #2, at least) is that Zerg only have a melee unit with small health for a relatively long time (until Roaches come out). The Zergling is very bad against Zealots, which makes early Protoss pushes hard, and die rather quickly to Marines.
The main problem with the Zergling is that it really isn't that good until speed comes out, and by that time most cheeses have come and gone.
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Actually, zerg absolutely rapes on small maps. (unless its choke-fest like incineration zone.)
-Creep spread is amazing on small maps
-Scouting is a breeze
-Zerglings OWN the early game
However the current map pool (medium-sized) maps are hard for zerg because, they are too far for aggressive builds but too close for macro heavy builds.
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Issues I am thinking of:
Cheese Varieties: There are so many kinds of cheese: extra sharp cheddar, new york cheddar, gouda, and cottage cheese being my personal favorites. Similarly, there are a lot of cheeses zergs have to prepare for, which weakens them to all other kinds of plays. For instance, if you are facing a T on xel naga, you MUST prepare for a 2-rax all-in by throwing an instant spine down. If you don't, you will just lose. However, that's 100 minerals and 50 on the drone you could have spent for your economy. What if he 4-rax stim timing pushes you with scvs? What if he 2 port banshees? what if, on some other map, he tank drops you? I think its' really really hard for zergs to learn how to defend all the different kinds of cheese perfectly, whereas a toss or terran only has to learn one to get tons of wins with it on the ladder.
Map Size: Zergs want to play econ. The way zergs WANT to play, ideally, is that they drone up until RIGHT BEFORE the attack comes, and then they produce just enough units to hold on. Then, they expand again, or pump units until they're maxed, and swarm and overwhelm with mass force. If the map is small and the terran comes with bunkers and a 2rax, you HAVE to pull your drones, meaning you can't drone, then you pump lings. Then the terran can just salvage, drop some mules, and walk away. If the map size was larger, however, you'd get more TIME to deal with any sort of attack. Everything would come later, meaning more time to econ and to drone.
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What makes zerg more sensitive to map size, and consequently cheese(which becomes more powerful with reduced mapsize), is the larva system. The fact that you have to choose between workers and army is a real problem when dealing with fast attacks.
Also, due to the fact that Tier 3 is so hard to get(hive and then ultra cavern or greater spire) makes longer maps better for zerg, because bigger maps allows zerg to expand more - which isnt true for the other races due to superior map control - and with more expansions zerg will be able to support more tech-oriented units as well as usual army for trades.
That is what I feel as a zerg player at least.
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On February 04 2011 10:01 WniO wrote:
Actually, zerg absolutely rapes on small maps. (unless its choke-fest like incineration zone.)
-Creep spread is amazing on small maps
-Scouting is a breeze
-Zerglings OWN the early game
However the current map pool (medium-sized) maps are hard for zerg because, they are too far for aggressive builds but too close for macro heavy builds.
I have to disagree with this 100%. Zergs hate small maps. Look at the smallest map in the pool: Steppes. That is downvoted by every zerg that's worth Code A. Small map size just means scary attacks come sooner - zerg wants time to econ and drone up and play defensively.
As all the best zerg players right now are playing, zerg should be played defensively, not aggressively. Drone up, use the multi-worker building mechanic to your advantage, and then mass-pump units when you need them.
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Mass lings actually does well in my experience in the early game and on small maps ling-roach all-ins aren't terrible, but I'm nowhere near pro level and there must be a reason those kinds of tactics are rarely used by pro level zergs.
Lack of a wall off hurts Z somewhat, but really the biggest reason one-base zerg struggles is the lack of larva. Inability to stay on one base for any length of time means more opportunity for T and P to win with one-basing or cheese, and small maps tend to have expos that bring you nearer your enemy, shortening the rush distances even more.
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On February 04 2011 10:07 MajorityofOne wrote:
Mass lings actually does well in my experience in the early game and on small maps ling-roach all-ins aren't terrible, but I'm nowhere near pro level and there must be a reason those kinds of tactics are rarely used by pro level zergs.
Lack of a wall off hurts Z somewhat, but really the biggest reason one-base zerg struggles is the lack of larva. Inability to stay on one base for any length of time means more opportunity for T and P to win with one-basing or cheese, and small maps tend to have expos that bring you nearer your enemy, shortening the rush distances even more.
I'm not really feeling mass lings early game as an offensive strategy....their DPS against buildings is bad, so if you're trying to bust a depot that's getting repaired...you will lose all your lings. better to do like 4 roaches + lings or something.
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Ok,
This is how I see it. Zerg are more susceptible to early cheese/pressure due to several points.
1. Zergling/Speedlings are melee units. Good army positioning/FF will romp.
2. Zerg can not be building an army and an economy at the same time. (Usually, unless you've got a buttload of banked larva/min/gas)
I want to elaborate on 2 if I can. I think this is the reason Zerg are so susceptible to early cheese/pressure. Once the cheese or pressure hits the Zerg lines, he is forced to react by building units. Which means he's not building drones. Which gives small windows to your opponent where they can freely charge ahead of you economically. This might not be such a huge issue, since you can just hatch a whole bacth of drones later.
Unfortunatly, typical cheese builds (4gate/4rax rush/7RR/VRR, etc) can usually apply a constant amount of presure (atleast in my exp), forcing Zerg to forego drones in favour of units/SC, and thus fall behind even further. Snowball effect if you will.
Just my two cents. It can be difficult to hold off early cheese, but it's not impossible.
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On February 04 2011 10:07 Isomer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 10:01 WniO wrote:
Actually, zerg absolutely rapes on small maps. (unless its choke-fest like incineration zone.)
-Creep spread is amazing on small maps
-Scouting is a breeze
-Zerglings OWN the early game
However the current map pool (medium-sized) maps are hard for zerg because, they are too far for aggressive builds but too close for macro heavy builds. I have to disagree with this 100%. Zergs hate small maps. Look at the smallest map in the pool: Steppes. That is downvoted by every zerg that's worth Code A. Small map size just means scary attacks come sooner - zerg wants time to econ and drone up and play defensively. As all the best zerg players right now are playing, zerg should be played defensively, not aggressively. Drone up, use the multi-worker building mechanic to your advantage, and then mass-pump units when you need them.
No, steppes is a medium sized map. not a small map. the reason why it seems so small is the nat-nat distance is very short, however the main-main is decent and therefor its a medium sized map. now, if you put the mains where the natural is, zerg would DOMINATE. double wide choke? hell yeah. part of the problems with deciding how to balance or what to do with the races is the fact that we actually dont know how to play sc2 yet. should we play it like the new gstl maps where a zerg can safely expand 100 times or should we play on island maps? or is the current pool the best? regardless im here to tell you that zerg is amazing on small maps.
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1. I think it is more that Protoss and Terran can take advantage of terrain features better than zerg can. This stems from the type of units terran and protoss have available to them, compared to the type of units zerg has. Terran and protoss both have long range aoe-damage units, such as siege tanks and colossus. What does that mean? They perform better when the enemy forces are clumped up in a narrow choke. They also can take advantage of cliffs very well.
Zerg units tend to be shorter range and more numerous. Think, zerglings are not individually strong, but since there are so many of them, they can overwhelm armies if they can get a good surround and good surface area. In a tight choke, where they won't get good surface area, they would lose to zealots. Meanwhile, roaches have less range than stalkers or marines, and roaches are not as space efficient as marines are, who can clump up.
Meanwhile, zerg's ranged unit is limited to hydralisks. It can take some advantage from terrain, but it's outclassed by siege tanks and colossus. Coupled with their slow speed off-creep and they're low health, they are very vulnerable to siege tanks and colossus, so much so that they get outclassed in taking advantage of terrain.
What this means is that zerg prefers wide open space. Honestly, map layout affects Protoss and Terran, too, but there tends to always be a cliff or tight spot in any map that you can hug. With protoss, too, there are the options of sentries and forcefield, where you can shape what kind of terrain you are fighting at.
2. There are a number of factors that make zerg weaker to cheese. I suppose one is that they can't wall-off like protoss and terran can. To balance this aspect, zerglings are made to be very resource efficient early on in the game. They are, however, larva-heavy, which is their trade-off.
The other aspect is how zerg plays out. Zerg has the option of pumping most of its resources into economy. Protoss, and more so terran, is more limited in terms of investing in economy. In the early stages of the game, it is the standard to not have much pressure being applied. What this means is that from the benefit of zerg's mechanics, they can invest a lot more quickly into economy than protoss/terran. To balance this mechanic, zerg has to be weakened a bit. If zerg can invest in economy better and, at the same time, scaled just as well in economy as protoss/terran, they would be quite imbalanced. Instead, they need to keep a bit of a economical advantage to stay even. What this all means is that zerg, if he wishes to keep up midgame, needs to invest mostly in economy. So zerg, if he doesn't need defense, will have less standby units than terran/protoss will.
Cheese relies a large part on having your opponent not responding correctly. The answer to cheese is many times to pump out units instead of economy. Zerg can hold less stuff with their standby units than protoss and terran can. Terran can react to many things by pulling scv's to repair the wall. A terran might not expect 12 zerglings, but it doesn't matter as much because 12 zerglings can't surprise one marine behind a wall. 12 zerglings, however, will pretty much autowin against a zerg with a couple lings and no spines. So terran has a natural safeguard against melee attacks. It also benefits nicely from defender's advantage, where if you keep your units up the ramp, you can guarantee yourself some kind of terrain advantage. Marines and marauders are both ranged and can shoot down the ramp at whatever's coming up the choke. Terran also has some natural safeguards against cloaked units with the option of scan. The idea is that if you suspect a dt rush is possible, save energy on OC at the timing for dt rush to hit, and if it proves not to be a dt rush, you merely delay the mule, which is some sacrifice, to be sure, but not a very big one.
I suppose the biggest point is that all responses to cheese require some level of commitment and sacrifice. Zerg is more vulnerable to cheese because the commitment and sacrifice is relatively bigger than terran/protoss. If you drone too little, you will be safe for the timing at 4:00, but you will be completely screwed for the timing at 5:00.
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The main reason that small maps are so hard for zerg is because of the simple fact, zerg doesnt like to make units untill they have too or when they see the push coming.
This doesnt work on smaller maps because the distances are too close you cant prepare for an attack coming, or early early rush games people can be at your base while your defense is just 2-4 zerglings still, it either A: ruins the zergs economy by forcing them to make units they dont really need yet.
or B: The zerg straight out loses because they start building when the push is on the way and they lose all thier sht because they cant reinforce fast like a zerg is suppose too.
Zerg is only good on small maps if the zerg is playing cheesey or your in very low level play where your opponent is horrible or the zerg has no real idea how to play, so no zerg is NOT amazing on smaller maps unless your cheesey, even then zerg isnt that great.
Also pressure can hurt the zerg alot more on smaller maps, such as a 1 stalker 1 zealot harass, or just 2 stalkers to harass,(or the lovely 2 rax into expand) it pressures the zerg alot and hurts them mostly on smaller maps because of the close distances.
Edit: I forgot to mention how terran can use small maps to easily cut it in half and contain a zerg using siege tanks, while collossus can use small maps to sort of "siege" the zerg as artosis said.
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On February 04 2011 10:01 WniO wrote:
Actually, zerg absolutely rapes on small maps. (unless its choke-fest like incineration zone.)
-Creep spread is amazing on small maps
-Scouting is a breeze
-Zerglings OWN the early game
However the current map pool (medium-sized) maps are hard for zerg because, they are too far for aggressive builds but too close for macro heavy builds.
So your saying on steppes of war zerg rapes on that map? What that just blows my mind not they don't its small so you have to almost make units instead of drones because the walking distance is like 10 seconds.
I just dont' get where you get that logic :/.
But zerg is more susceptible to cheese is because zvt for example there is a lot a terran can do and you want to know it before doing the counter (like blue flamed hellions/cloaked banshee). If you assume its cloaked banshee (couldn't get an overlord inside base due to marines) and you prepare for that but boom it turns out 4 blue flamed hellions drop in your main losing all of your workers.
Zerg has to know what cheese is coming to defend against it properly (because again its hard to prepare for both without you being behind already).
Dunno a better way to describe it is just zerg has to know whats coming because if they prepare for the wrong cheese/allin/whatever you want to call it its like an instant gg.
And on small maps this is even more so because you have even less time to prepare if you do find out before he pushes out. With bigger maps I don't think zerg would be as prone to losing to cheese due to having more time to prepare and all that but I could be wrong I'm just guessing of course.
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One thing to note is that zerg is the most mobile race, and the race best at counterattacking. Small maps decrease the effectiveness of both of those. terran and protoss are also both very positional (tanks, pfs, ff's, etc.), which becomes stronger on smaller maps because you have a smaller position to defend.
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Zerg have problems on small maps, because in order to stay even on economy with their opponent, they have to drone up as hard as they can, while making enough units to stay alive. You can't be building lings/roaches and drones at the same time (Unlike terran or progross, who constantly produce workers, and slowly build up their armies).
So, when you are on a map with a zerg's and a terran's naturals being within spitting distances of eachother, what can happen is:
Zerg makes a round of drones.
Terran pushes out with his army.
Zerg sees the push. Zerg can't make units/spines in time.
Zerg dies.
As for the cheese, there are so many different openings that flat out kill a zerg if they didn't prepare for them exactly (Many of them at little economic damage to the cheeser, if they fail). Two bunkers on the ramp, cannoning the natural, 2rax marine+scv all-in, 4rax marine-scv all-in, 2 port banshees. Zerg can... 7 pool, baneling bust, or try to do a fast roach bust. If either fail, the game's over. Those rushes also tend to fail in a big way - such that the terran/protoss loses almost nothing if they hold (Whereas zerg can defend 2 port banshees, and take heavy economic damage).
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EPT
