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On January 21 2011 23:19 cozzE wrote:
Great, another Z fanboy trolling T/P players, great stuff to read! .....
But honestly, get out of here with your ridiculous statistics and your stupidity, they reflect nothing at all about the matchup currently. T hasn't won many tournaments at all recently either, the last notable/large-scale competition that was won by T was by Jinro at MLG. Since then its been Z and P mostly, but do we see silly posts about them? Hardly.
Youre the one trolling. No one who has decent knowlege about the game and how the matchups unfold on a high level will ever doubt that zerg is underpowered. Sure not every good zerg player rages about it like idra does... some zergs just don't want to whine. also competetive terran or protoss players who travel the planet to compete and after all make their living out of sc wont have too much of a problem that zergs have less chances to win.
Also how can you say zergs and protoss won major tourneys since mlg when jinro won ? Naama won dreamhack, tlo won that tourney in the uk (playing T i think... maybe R). GSL3: All zergs out in ro8. GSL4: Code A 4T 0Z Code S 3T 1Z. Oh and the IEM Europe finals currently running with 10T 2P 0Z
People like you denied the fact that zerg was UP before the last patches when even blizzard finally saw that they had to do something about the balance. You didn't get it back then and you don't get it now.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 22 2011 01:50 kerminator wrote:
Youre the one trolling. No one who has decent knowlege about the game and how the matchups unfold on a high level will ever doubt that zerg is underpowered.
Wow, way to call someone a troll then proceed to do so epically yourself.
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On January 22 2011 01:50 kerminator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 23:19 cozzE wrote:
Great, another Z fanboy trolling T/P players, great stuff to read! .....
But honestly, get out of here with your ridiculous statistics and your stupidity, they reflect nothing at all about the matchup currently. T hasn't won many tournaments at all recently either, the last notable/large-scale competition that was won by T was by Jinro at MLG. Since then its been Z and P mostly, but do we see silly posts about them? Hardly. Youre the one trolling. No one who has decent knowlege about the game and how the matchups unfold on a high level will ever doubt that zerg is underpowered. Sure not every good zerg player rages about it like idra does... some zergs just don't want to whine. also competetive terran or protoss players who travel the planet to compete and after all make their living out of sc wont have too much of a problem that zergs have less chances to win. Also how can you say zergs and protoss won major tourneys since mlg when jinro won ? Naama won dreamhack, tlo won that tourney in the uk (playing T i think... maybe R). GSL3: All zergs out in ro8. GSL4: Code A 4T 0Z Code S 3T 1Z. Oh and the IEM Europe finals currently running with 10T 2P 0Z People like you denied the fact that zerg was UP before the last patches when even blizzard finally saw that they had to do something about the balance. You didn't get it back then and you don't get it now.
Oh, so the IEM Europe finals contain 83.3% terrans? I wasn't aware of that, but I am glad you mentioned it. It doesn't surprise me in the least, it is simply the trend that has become popular to ignore or rationalize away.
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On January 22 2011 01:50 kerminator wrote:No one who has decent knowlege about the game and how the matchups unfold on a high level will ever doubt that zerg is underpowered.
Well thats all the proof I need, if you say it I'm convinced.
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Hm, pretty much every pro has a better win rate against zerg than against other races. Nice find.
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On January 19 2011 09:05 Backpack wrote:
There were like 18 Terran Bonjwas in BW but those stats don't make Terran overpowered...
Might disagree a bit there, but oh well 
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Balancing is a Blizzard issue. Not a TL issue. Here we discuss tournaments, players, strategies, events... stuff like that.
If Blizzard sees those numbers they probably say: Ah ok Zergs seem to have a hard time. Lets go through our balance analysis process to find out if there is a problem and watch the development of it carefully.
If TL sees those numbers then we say: Ah ok Zergs seem to have a hard time. Lets talk about what Zergs are struggling with and come up with strategies and ideas that deal with the timings. And lets analyse Zerg players who still win alot to find out what they are doing right.
But maybe thats just my point of view...
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On January 21 2011 23:15 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 23:11 Leviwtf wrote:On January 21 2011 23:03 1Eris1 wrote:On January 21 2011 22:52 SedativeDev wrote:
omg. this threads are really gettin annoying. And it's allways zerg players who are whining. Those representation of wins on tournaments are not right. Do you take in count how many players of each race was represented on a tourney? well if it's like 10T 4P 2Z on tourney u can't expect for zerg to win. well if it wins i would say that Z is OP...
If Zs cant play anything but bling into mutas (happens allot in gold) or mass roach that doesn't mean that zergs are UP. Why do you think there are less players in the tournaments then? Because most people don't like to play the alien race, this is true for most games that include human like races and alien races. Not only that, many people don't like the larva mechanic because its harder to play with (most ppl starting off tend to shy away from it, so as a result their initial player pool is less). Also, the campaign in SC2 was only Terran so people stick to the race they know. This has all been said before... Man, people who play on higher/high level do not really care about "allien" race and about campaign. All you say is for begginers and not for skilled players. Or do you think most high level terrans take terran because they played humans in campaign? lol
You don't just become a Pro or a high level player, everyone starts off a newb and thats when they pick their race.
My point is this, at the onset of the game (Starcraft and SC2) everyone starts off being a newb. So you pick a race like a newb would, what you like, what looks fun, etc. You don't strategically evaluate which race is the best and even if you do, you don't have enough knowledge of the game to make an informed decision.
So if 1000 newbs play SC when it comes out, lets say 40% picks Terran, 35% Toss, 25% Zerg because of the Alien Race/larva mechanic difficulty. As a result, if 10% of everyone who plays becomes high level you have more high level Terrans than any other race, more high level players = more tournament wins/more strategies developed, its a snowball effect of Terran do better and better relative to the other races, but not due to the actual game design, simply because of the strategies being developed and refined.
Also, it was interesting when SC2 came out and many "high level players" switched their race, I would say alot switched to Terran because during the Beta and in the release version, Terran were really strong with rax before supply depot, which allowed 5 rax reaper, and super fast banshee techs, etc it allowed ALOT of things that were very difficult to stop especially early on. So even MORE people switched to terran in SC2.
That's my theory, to my knowledge there is no data on pros race switching between SC1 and 2.
On January 22 2011 02:20 clickrush wrote:
Balancing is a Blizzard issue. Not a TL issue. Here we discuss tournaments, players, strategies, events... stuff like that.
If Blizzard sees those numbers they probably say: Ah ok Zergs seem to have a hard time. Lets go through our balance analysis process to find out if there is a problem and watch the development of it carefully.
If TL sees those numbers then we say: Ah ok Zergs seem to have a hard time. Lets talk about what Zergs are struggling with and come up with strategies and ideas that deal with the timings. And lets analyse Zerg players who still win alot to find out what they are doing right.
But maybe thats just my point of view...
I agree completely, many players(regardless of race) pigeonhole themselves into blaming inbalance for losing or maps, or spawning close positions on a 4 player map, etc. Instead of focusing on how to improve and overcome those problems they decide to focus their efforts on posting on TL about imbalance and whining constantly. Notice how Day9 NEVER talks about imbalance because there is literally no point and nothing to gained from an improvement perspective by discussing it.
Even if at the very top level there is something imbalanced, you can't argue that was the sole reason you lost unless you are at that very top level.
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156 Posts
On January 19 2011 08:57 Silidons wrote:
but yet zerg has won 2 GSL's,
Anyone who uses this stupid argument should get their keyboard confiscated for life.
The Zergs won because 1) Zerg was an underdog race, and noone expected much from them. 2) They were superior players, technically. They found miniature holes and exploited them perfectly.
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The reason why Zerg (or rather FD and Nestea) has won the first two GSLs:
1st GSL: FD played twice as good as Rainbow and simply outplayed him in every game. Bunker rushes were nowhere near popular.
2nd GSL: Nestea > Foxer, he's also a better player. The fact that Foxer played the 2rax and the allins very poorly didn't help him either I guess.
GSL 3 is uninteresting now;
In Code S only 2 Zergs made it to the round of 16, although there are many good Zerg players (FD, Nestea, IdrA, Zenio, Ret), they got knocked out by cheese/all-in strategies. As the game is right now, Zerg loses to terran due to bad maps/spawn positions and Protoss is kind of imbalanced (and it will become even more so once they make use of the new air capabilities). I dont see any Zerg making it to the round of 16 in the upcoming GSLs if it doesn't get patched.
The introduction of new maps could help though.
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Funniest thing is how IdrA has a 67 over all vs 100 vs zerg.
Taking in account that that is a mirror matchup it says something about the other Zergs.
But ooh well, everybody knows that IdrA is the best 
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On January 22 2011 02:11 Cheerio wrote:
Hm, pretty much every pro has a better win rate against zerg than against other races. Nice find.
Has there been any discussion of this? It is a much more interesting stat than the "what race won what number of tournaments" one.
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OP I would like you to explain how you got those numbers (especially your averages) I don't think they are incorrect, but I suspect that they are extremely misleading.
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EPT
