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fyndor
Profile Joined December 2010
United States159 Posts
January 20 2011 18:33 GMT
#141
I am by no means an expert, but it seems to me to be an issue of the necessary skill and knowledge to play Zerg to its full potential. Blizzard likely doesn't balance the game based on how well noobs can do with a race, but rather balance races based on what is possible when played to its full potential. I think they break this "rule" sometimes, but for the most part balance will be based more on what is possible if played "right" then how well the Bronze level players are doing.

I personally think it is as simple as worker vs army production for Zerg. With Protoss and Terran, you CAN be fairly mindless (of course there are exceptions) and make a worker every time the previous one finishes building. Zerg have to be more intelligent about it and decide whether a worker or army unit is a more important use of the larva. Personally as a low level player I find this hard to figure out the right balance and I would bet even fairly strong players would struggle with this to a certain extent. Of course there are many other factors which could attribute to these stats, but I have to believe this is a major one. And if Blizz tried to affect these stats by making Zerg stronger then it likely would just lead to Zerg rule in the pro scene since they are likely making good decisions already when it comes to worker vs army and any change to significantly change the stats would likely put the pro Zergs over the top in tournaments.
Oleksandr
Profile Joined July 2010
United States227 Posts
January 20 2011 18:46 GMT
#142
When one refuses to admit disparity in the balance, one accuses player skill, player distribution - anything just so long as no imbalance is ever admitted.
Idra: good sir, you appear to be somewhat lacking in intelligence. please refrain from posting until this is remedied, since it renders your opinions slightly less than correct and has a tendency to irritate more informed forum-goers.
MasterJack
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada215 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 20:39:18
January 20 2011 20:36 GMT
#143
On January 19 2011 09:02 Firearm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 08:57 Silidons wrote:
but yet zerg has won 2 GSL's, which if you wanted to win any tournament, you would want to win that one.

sorry but zerg UP isn't going to work, GSL has the best players in the world.


QFT

In addition, based on the fact that Blizzard's reports have in the past shown win% of each race against each race on each map in the past - if such a massive differential existed across the board, they would have at least acknowledged in by now.

In addition, do the OP's figures take into account the weighting of each race at this level?

The problem with this win% argument is the skill differential between Z and other races, at least at lower levels. Everyone is matched so they win 50% of their games. More skill as a zerg may place you against much less skilled Terran players.

Not saying this is the case, but it's what I noticed switching from mid-diamond toss to now platinum zerg.

Of course as someone else stated, top-skill balance is what blizzard is focused on, so the imbalance at lower skill levels is expected.
kerminator
Profile Joined June 2010
Austria75 Posts
January 21 2011 10:31 GMT
#144
Congrats! You just wasted your time writing down statistics that show what every decent player already knows. Zerg needs some buffing or there need to be more zerg favored maps
IdrA has left the game!
Dragar
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom971 Posts
January 21 2011 12:47 GMT
#145
On January 21 2011 01:51 Duban wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2011 09:04 Highways wrote:
If you look at the big tournaments, it's pretty even

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments

To be fair, a lot of those are from a time where the strategies and patches are now considered obsolete.

Lets do some math on the OP's statistics, shall we? Lets assume that all 3 races have an equal chance of winning a tournament. This is a binary distribution with each race having a 1/3 chance of winning a tournament, ideally. The likelihood of any given outcome where a race, in this case zerg, wins only 7 tournaments can be expressed as

Zerg: (1/3)^7*(2/3)^(85-7=78) = 8.4145 * 10^-18. Of course there are 85C7=4,935,847,320 ways this could occur. The probability of this event is .000000042. If all possibilities were equal one would expect an average probability of 1/85 = .01176. In short, it is extremely unlikely that this would happen by chance.


The problem though is that the probability of the data, given the model, is not the probability of the model, given the data.

Just because the probability of that event is extremely unlikely (the probability of the data) given equally balanced races (the model), does not mean that the probability of the model being correct is extremely unlikely.
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
January 21 2011 13:08 GMT
#146
I think the most correct way to interpret the data is that it is up to the zerg in zvp/zvt to mess up and protoss in pvt

this I think stems from scouting; zerg and protoss need to devote overlord/supply and tech respectively to scout while terran merely has to temporarily give up an innate income advantage
qxc
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States550 Posts
January 21 2011 13:11 GMT
#147
why did you include zerg players in the op. You didn't really mention why it's even relevant that zerg players have a higher win % vs. other zergs.
ProgamerDesigner of Aeon's End
Dont Panic
Profile Joined October 2010
United States194 Posts
January 21 2011 13:19 GMT
#148
On January 21 2011 22:11 qxc wrote:
why did you include zerg players in the op. You didn't really mention why it's even relevant that zerg players have a higher win % vs. other zergs.

Because its true for all races.
Average winrate against ALL players = 59.5


I think this is because some of the wins are from people who are not counted in the TLPD
I am order. I am logic. I know exactly who I am.
SedativeDev
Profile Joined August 2010
Slovenia316 Posts
January 21 2011 13:52 GMT
#149
omg. this threads are really gettin annoying. And it's allways zerg players who are whining. Those representation of wins on tournaments are not right. Do you take in count how many players of each race was represented on a tourney? well if it's like 10T 4P 2Z on tourney u can't expect for zerg to win. well if it wins i would say that Z is OP...

If Zs cant play anything but bling into mutas (happens allot in gold) or mass roach that doesn't mean that zergs are UP.
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
January 21 2011 14:03 GMT
#150
On January 21 2011 22:52 SedativeDev wrote:
omg. this threads are really gettin annoying. And it's allways zerg players who are whining. Those representation of wins on tournaments are not right. Do you take in count how many players of each race was represented on a tourney? well if it's like 10T 4P 2Z on tourney u can't expect for zerg to win. well if it wins i would say that Z is OP...

If Zs cant play anything but bling into mutas (happens allot in gold) or mass roach that doesn't mean that zergs are UP.



Why do you think there are less players in the tournaments then?
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
Leviwtf
Profile Joined October 2010
174 Posts
January 21 2011 14:11 GMT
#151
On January 21 2011 23:03 1Eris1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 22:52 SedativeDev wrote:
omg. this threads are really gettin annoying. And it's allways zerg players who are whining. Those representation of wins on tournaments are not right. Do you take in count how many players of each race was represented on a tourney? well if it's like 10T 4P 2Z on tourney u can't expect for zerg to win. well if it wins i would say that Z is OP...

If Zs cant play anything but bling into mutas (happens allot in gold) or mass roach that doesn't mean that zergs are UP.



Why do you think there are less players in the tournaments then?


Because most people don't like to play the alien race, this is true for most games that include human like races and alien races. Not only that, many people don't like the larva mechanic because its harder to play with (most ppl starting off tend to shy away from it, so as a result their initial player pool is less). Also, the campaign in SC2 was only Terran so people stick to the race they know. This has all been said before...
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 14:16:43
January 21 2011 14:15 GMT
#152
On January 21 2011 23:11 Leviwtf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 23:03 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 21 2011 22:52 SedativeDev wrote:
omg. this threads are really gettin annoying. And it's allways zerg players who are whining. Those representation of wins on tournaments are not right. Do you take in count how many players of each race was represented on a tourney? well if it's like 10T 4P 2Z on tourney u can't expect for zerg to win. well if it wins i would say that Z is OP...

If Zs cant play anything but bling into mutas (happens allot in gold) or mass roach that doesn't mean that zergs are UP.



Why do you think there are less players in the tournaments then?


Because most people don't like to play the alien race, this is true for most games that include human like races and alien races. Not only that, many people don't like the larva mechanic because its harder to play with (most ppl starting off tend to shy away from it, so as a result their initial player pool is less). Also, the campaign in SC2 was only Terran so people stick to the race they know. This has all been said before...


Man, people who play on higher/high level do not really care about "allien" race and about campaign. All you say is for begginers and not for skilled players.

Or do you think most high level terrans take terran because they played humans in campaign? lol
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
cozzE
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia357 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 14:20:04
January 21 2011 14:19 GMT
#153
Great, another Z fanboy trolling T/P players, great stuff to read! .....

But honestly, get out of here with your ridiculous statistics and your stupidity, they reflect nothing at all about the matchup currently. T hasn't won many tournaments at all recently either, the last notable/large-scale competition that was won by T was by Jinro at MLG. Since then its been Z and P mostly, but do we see silly posts about them? Hardly.
Genzo
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark207 Posts
January 21 2011 14:26 GMT
#154
Fruitdealer winning GSL 1
1st there was a Ultralisk bug in the game at that time
2nd there was no jungle basin map
Heimatloser
Profile Joined March 2009
Germany1494 Posts
January 21 2011 14:26 GMT
#155
On January 19 2011 09:04 Highways wrote:
If you look at the big tournaments, it's pretty even

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments

major tournament on team liquid wiki = tournament with liquid participants
All what KT currently needs is a Zerg and a second Terran
xzidez
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden147 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 14:32:29
January 21 2011 14:30 GMT
#156
I seriously dont get why Z are whining so much.
To be honest, if the game were perfectly balanced the ammount of zerg players should be equally distributed all over the board. So if 30% of the players are playing zerg in bronze, also 30% of the master league players should be zerg.

But thats not the case. All leagues from platinum and down is represented by about 20% zerg players. Where they have almost 30% in master and diamond.

In other words zerg is overrepresented in the higher leagues.

I do however admit that its disturbing that terrans are so highly represented in tournaments.. But that should not be the concern of the most players here. The race you picked is probably not whats holding you back from entering GSL.
roadrunner343
Profile Joined November 2010
148 Posts
January 21 2011 14:45 GMT
#157
On January 21 2011 23:30 xzidez wrote:
I seriously dont get why Z are whining so much.
To be honest, if the game were perfectly balanced the ammount of zerg players should be equally distributed all over the board. So if 30% of the players are playing zerg in bronze, also 30% of the master league players should be zerg.

But thats not the case. All leagues from platinum and down is represented by about 20% zerg players. Where they have almost 30% in master and diamond.

In other words zerg is overrepresented in the higher leagues.

I do however admit that its disturbing that terrans are so highly represented in tournaments.. But that should not be the concern of the most players here. The race you picked is probably not whats holding you back from entering GSL.



Worst argument I've ever seen. Balance does not equal preference. Even when the game is perfectly balanced, if there may still be fewer Zerg players than all the other races. Race distribution is not the sole indicator of balance. More people just like the terran and protoss races.
AcOrP
Profile Joined November 2009
Bulgaria148 Posts
January 21 2011 15:08 GMT
#158
If zerg is less played this doesn't mean Z isn't UP and the statistics are wrong. The larger the sample is the smaller the error is. Race is under played when the race is not so powerfull, when you chose char/race in game you want to pick the strong. Will you pick race that is so hard to play and hard to master and even mastered you still has big chance losing on bad maps. If we don't count korean zergs, foreign scene realy lack zergs that realy win tournaments. If this trend continue soon or later we will only see zerg players only in korea. I don't think zerg is UP, but I think zerg need to be a bit OP so it get more popularity, and things balance out with maps and everything.
Ratel
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada184 Posts
January 21 2011 15:15 GMT
#159
lol where did u got those stats from 100% win rate? really?
why every second thread here somehow indicates how zerg is UP while its one of the most cost efficient races
Shuffleus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Australia764 Posts
January 21 2011 15:32 GMT
#160
On January 21 2011 23:19 cozzE wrote:
Great, another Z fanboy trolling T/P players, great stuff to read! .....

But honestly, get out of here with your ridiculous statistics and your stupidity, they reflect nothing at all about the matchup currently. T hasn't won many tournaments at all recently either, the last notable/large-scale competition that was won by T was by Jinro at MLG. Since then its been Z and P mostly, but do we see silly posts about them? Hardly.


How can you be so certain of an opinion that is so easily disproved...



I've seen both sides of this argument against and for balance, and i can see how people come to the conclusions they do but i will however say this as my one and only statement on Balance:

No matter the amount of statistics you read or complaints and issues people bring up people will always find an position to argue from in favor of the stance that they've already taken. It's so easy to read a complaint and say "no, that's wrong" or "your argument is flawed as it doesn't take into account XYZ" and i don't think it's possible to find an argument that can account for everything. However there is one statement that i can say with 100% certainty in this argument:

If you played this game as Zerg at the highest level since release and were an intelligent player that adapted and studied each match-up:


There is absolutely no way you would think that Zerg balanced.


I've never met a Single Zerg at the top tier that doesn't believe that, on EU or US, and I don't think i will for quite some time. You may get "QQ posts" by the dozen, but i can assure you many of the players who play in these tournaments, who are competitors at the highest level don't post here, don't contribute to the mess because we already know the issues; there is no arguing left to be done. Telling someone who will never understand because he is merely a bystander who sees less than the tip of the iceburg has no value to any of us. You will and can never sympathize with or understand the issues we face because you've never even come close to experiencing what we do.


You see the result and it becomes a statistic that you argue for or against, locked up in forums.
I actually play the games. WE play the games, and if you could feel the frustration we do for even a minute playing this race you would bite your tongue in your argument for balance.
| QuanticGaming.com | There is no greater feeling then to find order in the chaos, as you slip the puzzle pieces in place.
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