EPT"The following files are using reserved file names and cannot be imported:
TriggerLibs\GameData\GameData.galaxy"
Fyn AI (practice AI on BNet) - Page 2
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Xswordy
United Kingdom425 Posts
"The following files are using reserved file names and cannot be imported: TriggerLibs\GameData\GameData.galaxy" | ||
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Atlas_550
United States180 Posts
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
Sorry but I have no experience with the editor. However I tried to import the files and I get this error -> "The following files are using reserved file names and cannot be imported: TriggerLibs\GameData\GameData.galaxy" If you got that far it means you are close. I think that folder is just there to play it offline stand alone with a launcher. What you do is when you are importing you uncheck that folder/tree. Leave everything else checked. Then I save it. Then close the import window. Then you go to publish and you have to tell it all languages, name it, and switch it to public then publish it. Each time you change things in that publish dialog it "resets" certain things which is a kind of annoying interface. Basically when you see no errors you are ready to publish. | ||
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
Okay seriously, is there any way to beat this way without some sort of rush? Cause it kills me easy in the medium difficulty games even. The only thing that is keeping me alive half the time is my micro abilities... Yea early pressure is the only way I can beat it, but I figure that is because I am silver. On medium, it starts to micro, and it expands a lot so if you sit on 1 or 2 bases it eventually overruns you. I am working on trying to beat it in a more macro style game. For one, when it sees what units you have it follows a counter chart that Blizz has in their default AI, so if you stay in one tech tree for too long and dont keep up with or stop its expanding, it will get more than enough of the right stuff to finish you off. | ||
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
I wasn't aware that very hard AI on normal settings mined more minerals? R u guys sure? very hard ai plays very very badly... Yea I am pretty sure even the default Blizzard AI cheats after Hard. Play a game against it, write down its build timings on the hardest setting then try to mimic it. You will notice stuff won't line up which is because it mines more minerals than you so the build orders they designed it to use don't work with regular mining settings. Ultimately though they had to just ramp up mining like that because they don't exactly know how to accomplish the same thing with intelligence vs brute force. And for that matter this AI after medium follows the same model. Its much easier to just essentially handicap you than to make an AI that can outsmart you if are good player  | ||
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Atlas_550
United States180 Posts
Seems like pretty good AI for practice. The reg very hard ai never gave me trouble cause it would wait for the 7 minute mark or later to attack. This one gets 4 units and started to pressure. It'll also micro pretty decently. | ||
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Atlas_550
United States180 Posts
First off, if you could program the terran and protoss ai to somehow know to wall off their ramp like actually players do against zerg, this would be almost perfect. Why? Because as a zerg once their initial attack utterly fails I can simply counter attack and almsot disable them without much effort. A wall-off would actually be tougher to fight against becuase I may be able to keep them from expanding I won't be able to run into their base with my initial 10 or 12 lings and wreak some havoc. On a similiar note, zerg ai seems actually perfect except that it doesn't spread creep. If the zerg ai would spread creep then I think that it would be a tough ai to beat. Secondly, I think that the ai needs to be programmed with some "standard" built orders. I would like to see if toss will actually 4 gate instead of 2 gate cyber expanding most games and then teching to counter what they see (or not incase of the high templars to counter roach?). This would allows players to get that game feel of what they may face on the ladder or in tournaments alittle better. These are just some of my opinions. I don't know if you can actually program all of these because I stopped trying mod back when I was 12  , but if you could then that would be a wonderful addition to an already great ai system. | ||
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Xswordy
United Kingdom425 Posts
On January 06 2011 14:53 fyndor wrote: If you got that far it means you are close. I think that folder is just there to play it offline stand alone with a launcher. What you do is when you are importing you uncheck that folder/tree. Leave everything else checked. Then I save it. Then close the import window. Then you go to publish and you have to tell it all languages, name it, and switch it to public then publish it. Each time you change things in that publish dialog it "resets" certain things which is a kind of annoying interface. Basically when you see no errors you are ready to publish. Ok thx , done that. Published it as "private" to test it but I haven't noticed any change in how the AI plays. Maybe I've done something wrong? | ||
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
First off, if you could program the terran and protoss ai to somehow know to wall off their ramp like actually players do against zerg, this would be almost perfect. Why? Because as a zerg once their initial attack utterly fails I can simply counter attack and almsot disable them without much effort. A wall-off would actually be tougher to fight against becuase I may be able to keep them from expanding I won't be able to run into their base with my initial 10 or 12 lings and wreak some havoc. On a similiar note, zerg ai seems actually perfect except that it doesn't spread creep. If the zerg ai would spread creep then I think that it would be a tough ai to beat. Secondly, I think that the ai needs to be programmed with some "standard" built orders. I would like to see if toss will actually 4 gate instead of 2 gate cyber expanding most games and then teching to counter what they see (or not incase of the high templars to counter roach?). This would allows players to get that game feel of what they may face on the ladder or in tournaments alittle better. I may try at some point to improve it, but there are going to be limits to what I can and am willing to put the time in to do. If you search for Dark Green Commander there actually was an effort to adapt the original Green Tea AI to use more standard builds. I don't think there is a version out that works with the current game though, and I certainly would like at some point to make the different "commanders" in this AI use standard builds. I didn't do it from the start because I have not spent enough time looking at the code to get the full picture of what they were doing so I didn't make it weaker than the original. For one I believe it has this system where if they have too much air it will switch to a more air heavy build at some point and go to ground when necessary also. I would have to make sure what ever I did kept that model intact so that it could still react correctly. Plus the builds we all see online really is about the first few minutes of the fight. But how many gates / robos / stargates etc and how do you transition to mid and late game matter depending on the build you started with and what kind of economy you have and so on. As I said I am a silver player. I play Protoss, but know enough about the other races that I am not clueless. That being said though am I really the best person to be designing builds yet? I still have a rough time beating the Medium AI unless I put on more early pressure than I am normally comfortable with. I feel that at this time if I attempted to rework the builds I could change it in a way that would probably still do well against myself, but I would not be skilled enough to really make an accurate judgement whether the changes were good. As for the first point these two examples are probably a bit tricky. As it stands there is no handbook for using this mod API, and as far as I know what the community has is a list of functions and parameter names, and the default AI script that blizzard uses on BNet. I have only grazed the surface, but I suspect both of those could be solved. I could have sworn I read something about creep spread in the code, though for what ever reason I never noticed it wasn't doing it. One thing I see in this AI code is that usually if not all of the time it tells the AI to build things near other things. Its seems to always be a relative location kind of system. So it will say build a pylon near nexus and the system will try and find a spot not occupied to build it near where you wanted. It does this because exactness is a problem when stuff can be blocked. How do you tell it to accomplish a wall if a drone is blocking it. Its easy for a human but they may not have the tools available to make that easy, I will have to see. Also unless they have a function that just says block your ramp with these buildings (dont think that exists), you would have to give exact coordinates for positioning which I dont think I have ever seen this AI do. That is probably because it is generic AI that works for all maps. If possible it would likely require figuring out all the placements on every map, for all the spawning positions, for the different races, for the different wall types that may change depending on builds. The creep thing could be even crazier in some ways but easier in others. Again I don't know if they have to tools available to easily say build another creep tumor "towards" their base or expo or to your expo etc. But I really haven't dug in enough to really know how possible this is. It may not be that hard if you just had certain positions you precoded in where you wanted them to be built, but it would probably be time consuming to figure out from all the spawn positions and make it work in this "fuzzy" world where stuff can be blocking your predefined positions. Like I said I may play with using standard builds, but I would certainly need help from the community in testing it to make sure it was an improvement. The creep tumor and walling I don't really care to tackle because of the time likely required to solve, but someone else is more than welcome to solve it for me/us and I will add your patch in. | ||
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
On a similiar note, zerg ai seems actually perfect except that it doesn't spread creep. If the zerg ai would spread creep then I think that it would be a tough ai to beat. Ok so I just checked and there is certainly code for spreading creep. I will have to figure out if its something I did to break it or if it just doesnt work. Hopefully I can fix that pretty soon. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
On January 07 2011 10:06 fyndor wrote: Ok so I just checked and there is certainly code for spreading creep. I will have to figure out if its something I did to break it or if it just doesnt work. Hopefully I can fix that pretty soon. Actually it does spread creep. You could certainly start doing it faster but it will spread creep. I saw it first start doing it around 16 min mark. It appears though that 2 of the commanders may not have the code set to do it. Not sure why they would omit it, will have to check it out in offline testing. One thing I did notice when clicking on his overlords in the replay is that it did have them all set to spread creep, but I think it uses all of them once it gets speed as scouts. This is presumably because I turned scouting back on, so they are never sitting still long enough to really drop it. It may have worked better with original Green Tea with vision enabled and no scouting. Hopefully I can figure out how to improve it and I will see if it needs to be added to those 2 builds it was omitted from. Side note: It actually did drop creep in my naturals mineral line which was kind of funny. Not sure what the point was, maybe to improve a ling drive-by. | ||
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bruteMax
Canada339 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On January 06 2011 15:09 fyndor wrote: Yea I am pretty sure even the default Blizzard AI cheats after Hard. Play a game against it, write down its build timings on the hardest setting then try to mimic it. You will notice stuff won't line up which is because it mines more minerals than you so the build orders they designed it to use don't work with regular mining settings. Ultimately though they had to just ramp up mining like that because they don't exactly know how to accomplish the same thing with intelligence vs brute force. And for that matter this AI after medium follows the same model. Its much easier to just essentially handicap you than to make an AI that can outsmart you if are good player Very Hard doesn't cheat, Insane cheats. | ||
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Rb6v King
Australia54 Posts
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Atlas_550
United States180 Posts
This was on medium ai (The apm of the ai was upwards of 600!? by this point and was multitasking beyond what anyone I have every seen could do). | ||
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
Is it just me or does this AI seem a bit too hard on medium on the jungle basin map? The ai immediately expands to the safer expansion while sending out it's first wave of pressure. The pressure can be held off as zerg, but the constant pressure following causes the constant production of combat units and also no way to expand outward past the safe expansion and also no apparent way to have time to break through rocks. By 9 minutes the CPU is already taking a 3rd and has 60+ workers plus keeps pelting you with decently sized armies to keep you inside your base. Suddenly by 12 minutes there was a BC with a large amount of marines and marauders on the map including some hellions and I was getting wrecked. This was on medium ai (The apm of the ai was upwards of 600!? by this point and was multitasking beyond what anyone I have every seen could do). Well for one I can tell you there is not difference between the maps codewise. As far as I can tell the AI acts generically no matter the map. Certainly some maps will be more or less conducive to the AI. The original AI never shipped with the pure 1v1 maps (Steppes, Xel'Naga, Jungle) and I assumed this was because its weakness to early pressure. One thing you could do would be try and prevent it from taking a 3rd and eventually try get your own up and try and "starve" it to death. I would assume that is kind of the strat for that map vs computer or human, though I am Siilver so what do I know : / As far as APM goes, the Very Easy and Easy difficulties have an APM cap and no micro. Easy has more APM than Very Easy. On Medium the APM cap is removed and micro is added. I am not 100% sure, but I would imagine the difficulties I have with medium are more due to it micro'ing than APM. Plus I am not sure what would happen if I turned the APM cap on for Medium, I would imagine its micro would suffer. I don't know if I really want to mess with that, but I have been considering adding "commands" in to the mods so you could do things like reset, and tell it to use a specific commander (aka build). If I do that I may also add in a way to set the APM to your desired setting if that is something the community would like. Edit: Does anyone by chance know of a custom map that has user interaction using "chat commands" who's source code is publically available. Looking for some example code so I can start adding in commands which would help alot when I start modifying the builds to more closely match what the pro's are doing and need the ability to select which commander I want to play. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
http://sc2.nibbits.com/forums/39/view/1295/import-ai-script-to-maps But when I would test the map, the green tea AI was not there. What's going on? On January 06 2011 15:09 fyndor wrote: I am pretty sure you're wrong. (only insane mineral cheats)Yea I am pretty sure even the default Blizzard AI cheats after Hard. Anyway, when it comes to Green tea AI, I haven't played it recently (I played it like 2 months ago maybe, and it was very similar to it's beta level), but plan to play it again (hence my problem with importing the AI to a map). The issues I had with the old ones, and I think is still an issue (especially with one that doesn't have revealed vision) is: 1. there are too many strategies used, by that I mean too many bad ones. The builds should be a bit less bad overall. Variety is nice, but some builds are far superior to others I'd say. 2. Armies (small ones oftentimes I guess) will be sent out, but if they can't win they will run away. This is a problem because it doesn't factor in the possibility of not being able to run away due to movement speeds. If a AI is facing a zerg with speedlings, they should not send out their army at all unless they know they can stim, medivac, blink, or micro their way out, or can just outright crush the enemy. Personally, I like the maphacking for AI, since it's far too difficult (or too much work), to give the AI good enough "intuition" and senses to know where to scan, how to scout, where to scout, how to keep updated on units, and builds that can deal with various opponent strategies. The way I see it is when practicing, one should be practicing for worst-case scenarios, such as if the opponent gets a lucky scan, gets a lucky scout, or flat out correctly-assumes what strategy you're executing. I do not like mineral cheating at all though (I dislike how green tea has 2 modes of SEVERE mineral cheating), because even in worst-case scenarios, your opponent will NEVER have such a massive advantage like that, ever, assuming you play right. Yes, they might not provide a challenge then, but that just means the AI needs to be improved. I think mineral cheating also gives a disadvantage to the players playing them who are zerg, because they don't have units that can be super-efficient vs enemy units like siege tank, thor, missile turret, colossus, force field, phoenix, even marine (microed), which make winning a fight with a resource disadvantage an impossible feat even with perfect strategy execution and micro-management. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
One game in a TvZ, the terran goes 1 barracks marauder ( attack with 2+ marauder) into siege tanks vs my 11 pool expand into speedlings. It's absolutely terrible. 1 rax marauder is maybe plausible if the opponent is going roach rush, but I wasn't. Builds like this should simply never be called up in a TvZ. Of course this is more green tea AI's problem than yours, but I guess if you wanted to branch off to another AI then it could be considered. | ||
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