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On January 12 2011 00:38 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Somehow, I don't see the point of this.
While BNet 2.0 isn't perfect by a long shot,
It's pretty terrible actually
and the matchmaking system can be a little broken at times
That's the only good thing about it lol
, doesn't playing games on a seperate ladder complicate things more than they need to be?
If you don't like it, you can leave it, this is for those of us who want to play a custom ladder with our own maps and not the garbage Blizzard puts out. As seen time and time again they don't give a shit about the ladder mappool.
Is this not why there are tournaments?
Uhh, what?
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Also to people say: Why cant you use chat channels to find people to play on maps you like?
Because there is no sense of urgency in normal custom games.You don't have much incentive for winning and you are most of the time familiar with who you play against. If there was a system to pit against each other similiarly skilled players on a random (BUT GOOD) map, in a game that will determine their future ranking and who they play against (+ bragging rights since it's actually a 'serious' game) then that will make for a much more exciting gaming experience.
I've now played about 1k ladder games and 1.3k in customs, there is a big difference and I frequently find myself scouting less / being less wary of my oppenents gameplay and playing blindly, which is never a good thing.
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I hate playing on ladder for so many reason (and one of the most important is bad maps) so I have stopped playing ladder and just continued to play against friends. I would LOVE to play on a custom ladder system with good and fun maps.
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On January 05 2011 09:30 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
we got ladders, something blizzard stopped providing since around 2000.
Don't be so mean to blizzard, they actually provided a ladder for warcraft 3 
It's just for SC2 where they followed their successful way of thinking/saying:
"Do you really want a ladder?"
To the OP: this would be just so amazing, a ladder-system that actually depended solely on skill with good maps. Kinda what you expect from a gamedesigner, but Blizz has continuously proven to be incapable of providing this, so I'd be really excited to play on such ladder.
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On January 12 2011 00:35 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 05:51 GameEnder wrote:
I don't know if this has already been posted but there is a very simple solution to this which doesn't require complex custom maps. It only takes 4 steps:
1) You create a website similar to sc2ranks.com which scrapes freely available Bnet 2.0 match history from the web
2) You upload your desired maps with names like "ICCup Ladder - Refined Metalopolis"
3) People register their name and character code/bnet profile link with your ladder website
4) Periodically your website scrapes their profiles for wins/losses on "ICCup Ladder" maps and computes the current standings
No complex maps or local client needed, and since online blizzard profile data is impossible to fake the custom ladder system will be as secure as the normal Bnet 2.0 ladder. This doesn't work. Replay solution is also bad, inefficient and people don't want their replays automatically sent elsewhere. So far the sc2banks file solution seems to be the best one. I'd love to help but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to coding. It certainly looks very possible and awesome, someone just needs to do it 
The local client could just parse the replay to determine the winner just like SC2 gears and report only that information, instead of the entire replay to the custom ladder site. Replay submission could only be done on games where there is some kind of dispute. This would mean you really don't have to code any complex maps, just a simple local client and website.
EDIT: To all the people ragging on Blizzard I would say their match making system is pretty amazing and really the only flaw in the current ladder is the map setup. I foresee some kind of in client tournament or ladder setup in the future, but this is fun to think about for now.
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On January 12 2011 07:28 GameEnder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 00:35 ChickenLips wrote:On January 11 2011 05:51 GameEnder wrote:
I don't know if this has already been posted but there is a very simple solution to this which doesn't require complex custom maps. It only takes 4 steps:
1) You create a website similar to sc2ranks.com which scrapes freely available Bnet 2.0 match history from the web
2) You upload your desired maps with names like "ICCup Ladder - Refined Metalopolis"
3) People register their name and character code/bnet profile link with your ladder website
4) Periodically your website scrapes their profiles for wins/losses on "ICCup Ladder" maps and computes the current standings
No complex maps or local client needed, and since online blizzard profile data is impossible to fake the custom ladder system will be as secure as the normal Bnet 2.0 ladder. This doesn't work. Replay solution is also bad, inefficient and people don't want their replays automatically sent elsewhere. So far the sc2banks file solution seems to be the best one. I'd love to help but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to coding. It certainly looks very possible and awesome, someone just needs to do it The local client could just parse the replay to determine the winner just like SC2 gears and report only that information, instead of the entire replay to the custom ladder site. Replay submission could only be done on games where there is some kind of dispute. This would mean you really don't have to code any complex maps, just a simple local client and website. EDIT: To all the people ragging on Blizzard I would say their match making system is pretty amazing and really the only flaw in the current ladder is the map setup. I foresee some kind of in client tournament or ladder setup in the future, but this is fun to think about for now.
this actually should work pretty well
i dont see why this should fail, from the technical point of view
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On January 12 2011 07:37 borlee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 07:28 GameEnder wrote:On January 12 2011 00:35 ChickenLips wrote:On January 11 2011 05:51 GameEnder wrote:
I don't know if this has already been posted but there is a very simple solution to this which doesn't require complex custom maps. It only takes 4 steps:
1) You create a website similar to sc2ranks.com which scrapes freely available Bnet 2.0 match history from the web
2) You upload your desired maps with names like "ICCup Ladder - Refined Metalopolis"
3) People register their name and character code/bnet profile link with your ladder website
4) Periodically your website scrapes their profiles for wins/losses on "ICCup Ladder" maps and computes the current standings
No complex maps or local client needed, and since online blizzard profile data is impossible to fake the custom ladder system will be as secure as the normal Bnet 2.0 ladder. This doesn't work. Replay solution is also bad, inefficient and people don't want their replays automatically sent elsewhere. So far the sc2banks file solution seems to be the best one. I'd love to help but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to coding. It certainly looks very possible and awesome, someone just needs to do it The local client could just parse the replay to determine the winner just like SC2 gears and report only that information, instead of the entire replay to the custom ladder site. Replay submission could only be done on games where there is some kind of dispute. This would mean you really don't have to code any complex maps, just a simple local client and website. EDIT: To all the people ragging on Blizzard I would say their match making system is pretty amazing and really the only flaw in the current ladder is the map setup. I foresee some kind of in client tournament or ladder setup in the future, but this is fun to think about for now. this actually should work pretty well i dont see why this should fail, from the technical point of view
because you can copy+paste replays and edit them with ease...
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A good point of reference for the client would be ESEA. You might even be able to try contacting lpkane and get a hold of the dev team behind ESEA if you are so inclined.
I've thought a bit about this and everything besides the editable sc2banks(which are just xml files which is awesome) seems good.
I'd like to clean up your ideas and add some of mine:
- Customs maps with a simple trigger to create a temporary sc2bank which stores the winner (I did this in 30 seconds without ever using the sc2editor)
- Client that would let you see the online players and their respective custom ladder ranking
- For now you would probably use the client to find the player/id and contact them through bnet
- Set up match in the client by entering the opponents name.
- The client sends the match request to the server and then to the opponents client
- Opponent accepts request and the match is ready.
- Create the custom game on the custom map and play.
- Once done both users click finish on the client
- The client then opens the tempBank.sc2bank and parses the XML, encrypts it and sends the results to the server and deletes the temp bank. There could be a 15 minute period to click finish until the server nullifies the match. Once the server receives both results and if they match up we are done.
- If they don't match the match would be marked as 'invalid' and would require the winner to upload a replay on the site and have an admin confirm the win.
This seems legit and as far as the editable banks go we have replays for confirmation and it's very easy to ban abusers. Just a minor annoying for the admins.
Here what my 30 seconds sc2bank looked like:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Bank version="1">
<Section name="gameData">
<Key name="winner">
<Value int="2"/>
</Key>
</Section>
</Bank>
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"match making system is pretty amazing and really the only flaw in the current ladder is the map setup"
+1
until then: bumping cause i think within the hundreds of cool threads on tl, i think this the coolest tl "map issues" thread ever
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A good point of reference for the client would be ESEA. You might even be able to try contacting lpkane and get a hold of the dev team behind ESEA if you are so inclined.
I've thought a bit about this and everything besides the editable sc2banks(which are just xml files which is awesome) seems good.
I'd like to clean up your ideas and add some of mine:
- Customs maps with a simple trigger to create a temporary sc2bank which stores the winner (I did this in 30 seconds without ever using the sc2editor)
- Client that would let you see the online players and their respective custom ladder ranking
- For now you would probably use the client to find the player/id and contact them through bnet
- Set up match in the client by entering the opponents name.
- The client sends the match request to the server and then to the opponents client
- Opponent accepts request and the match is ready.
- Create the custom game on the custom map and play.
- Once done both users click finish on the client
- The client then opens the tempBank.sc2bank and parses the XML, encrypts it and sends the results to the server and deletes the temp bank. There could be a 15 minute period to click finish until the server nullifies the match. Once the server receives both results and if they match up we are done.
- If they don't match the match would be marked as 'invalid' and would require the winner to upload a replay on the site and have an admin confirm the win.
This seems legit and as far as the editable banks go we have replays for confirmation and it's very easy to ban abusers. Just a minor annoying for the admins.
Here what my 30 seconds sc2bank looked like:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Bank version="1">
<Section name="gameData">
<Key name="winner">
<Value int="2"/>
</Key>
</Section>
</Bank>
Sounds like a good system to me but woudnt it be abusable by simply not clicking finish in the client when you loose and let the server nullify the match?
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Something simmulair to old WGtour will prob pop up within the next month with Chat channels inc.
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On January 13 2011 02:22 Rotwang wrote:Show nested quote +
A good point of reference for the client would be ESEA. You might even be able to try contacting lpkane and get a hold of the dev team behind ESEA if you are so inclined.
I've thought a bit about this and everything besides the editable sc2banks(which are just xml files which is awesome) seems good.
I'd like to clean up your ideas and add some of mine:
- Customs maps with a simple trigger to create a temporary sc2bank which stores the winner (I did this in 30 seconds without ever using the sc2editor)
- Client that would let you see the online players and their respective custom ladder ranking
- For now you would probably use the client to find the player/id and contact them through bnet
- Set up match in the client by entering the opponents name.
- The client sends the match request to the server and then to the opponents client
- Opponent accepts request and the match is ready.
- Create the custom game on the custom map and play.
- Once done both users click finish on the client
- The client then opens the tempBank.sc2bank and parses the XML, encrypts it and sends the results to the server and deletes the temp bank. There could be a 15 minute period to click finish until the server nullifies the match. Once the server receives both results and if they match up we are done.
- If they don't match the match would be marked as 'invalid' and would require the winner to upload a replay on the site and have an admin confirm the win.
This seems legit and as far as the editable banks go we have replays for confirmation and it's very easy to ban abusers. Just a minor annoying for the admins.
Here what my 30 seconds sc2bank looked like:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Bank version="1">
<Section name="gameData">
<Key name="winner">
<Value int="2"/>
</Key>
</Section>
</Bank>
Sounds like a good system to me but woudnt it be abusable by simply not clicking finish in the client when you loose and let the server nullify the match?
If only one player had to submit the results (in other words, all win/loss data sent by each person), surely the winner would make sure it happened each time. This would also combat exploitation, as the results between the two players could be compared.
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On January 13 2011 02:46 AndrewZorn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 02:22 Rotwang wrote:
A good point of reference for the client would be ESEA. You might even be able to try contacting lpkane and get a hold of the dev team behind ESEA if you are so inclined.
I've thought a bit about this and everything besides the editable sc2banks(which are just xml files which is awesome) seems good.
I'd like to clean up your ideas and add some of mine:
- Customs maps with a simple trigger to create a temporary sc2bank which stores the winner (I did this in 30 seconds without ever using the sc2editor)
- Client that would let you see the online players and their respective custom ladder ranking
- For now you would probably use the client to find the player/id and contact them through bnet
- Set up match in the client by entering the opponents name.
- The client sends the match request to the server and then to the opponents client
- Opponent accepts request and the match is ready.
- Create the custom game on the custom map and play.
- Once done both users click finish on the client
- The client then opens the tempBank.sc2bank and parses the XML, encrypts it and sends the results to the server and deletes the temp bank. There could be a 15 minute period to click finish until the server nullifies the match. Once the server receives both results and if they match up we are done.
- If they don't match the match would be marked as 'invalid' and would require the winner to upload a replay on the site and have an admin confirm the win.
This seems legit and as far as the editable banks go we have replays for confirmation and it's very easy to ban abusers. Just a minor annoying for the admins.
Here what my 30 seconds sc2bank looked like:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Bank version="1">
<Section name="gameData">
<Key name="winner">
<Value int="2"/>
</Key>
</Section>
</Bank>
Sounds like a good system to me but woudnt it be abusable by simply not clicking finish in the client when you loose and let the server nullify the match? If only one player had to submit the results (in other words, all win/loss data sent by each person), surely the winner would make sure it happened each time. This would also combat exploitation, as the results between the two players could be compared.
Yep the most basic way is, if their is a dispute the match doesn't count for either person but a single player comes up for dispute multiple times, he is quicked from the ladder system. Your view system is also a good idea, it might just take a little too much man power.
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On January 04 2011 05:03 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 05:02 Bey wrote:
What prevents someone from editing the file and regenerating a new hash? Encrypting the files really isn't the main issue to overcome. Anti-cheat is the last thing to implement imho. Not really... This is one of the things you'll need to tackle directly, not when the whole system is done.
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There is no need to void the result if only 1 result was submitted. I'm sure the winner will want his win to be registered (and this can be done automatically)
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On January 13 2011 07:55 ChickenLips wrote:
There is no need to void the result if only 1 result was submitted. I'm sure the winner will want his win to be registered (and this can be done automatically)
My bad. What I meant by nullified is that it would also be treated the same as if the results didn't match. ie the match is 'invalid' till the winner uploads a replay.
It's doable but seems like a lot of work just to avoid bnet. I have the knowledge to create a basic client, website and database but it would be in my free time which I have absolutely none of.
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Asking a player to upload a replay just because his opponent was pissed and closed the program before it could send the result is not a feasible solution.
I'm pretty sure that there is no way to really abuse the system if you accept even incomplete reports (i.e. only 1 player submitted). There's no reason for a player to submit a loss and if both players submit a win you can just collect data and ban people that have f.e. 3 or more inconsistencies.
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I very much support this. I actually had this idea as well, and posted about it along time ago, but noone noticed it.
Are you only looking for those map names? One issue that might cause trouble are players practicing on these different maps.
Also, perhaps some sort of web interface as well? And how about some sort of chat bot that keeps track of the player ratings in the database, that you could send commands to. like /whois JimBo, and it would spit rating info back out at you.
I myself am a pretty competent web UI and general web designer. Let me know if you want any help with the front end of a web-page.
Also, perhaps have some sort of results crawler that goes around blizzard's web page (lets say you need to input your profile link), and gets your match results from there, and compares them with whats on record to stop cheating and abusing.
You would also have to check if both players are indeed in the ladder.
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You can use md5 hash checks to make sure the result of the game is valid. Each player has a private string (ID) (only public to the player) , the game adds a unique value for that specific game along with using a global key, the two players IDs, and the value of the game result (0,1,-1) and then you md5 it. That value is stored in the bank file along with the ID of the player and the unique game value. The server checks the md5 to make sure it is the same as it expects. Since the math to do the md5 is obscured and is done in the client it will be really hard to decrypt and fake and only one player would need to report the result.
The only way to fake it is if you figure out the global key, the rules for the unique key, access another players key and figure out the correct formula to md5 the string (order of addition), the odds of this are basically 0.
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A way to build on this might be to have a search opponent feature on the webpage. It then searches among those currently searching and gives you a map and player name with id. You two then can play. Not sure if that is needed though, if it is very popular such a feature could make matchmaking possible as well, kind of like how dota-league and other dota sites does it.
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EPT
